Archive: 24 posts

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So, I've got an LBP1 project on the go that will be a(nother) multiplayer head-to-head, but this time 2-4 players, and involves each player getting teleported into little directly controlled directly-dirigible vehicles; never would I have thought that my biggest blockage in logic wouldn't be getting these tiny, finely tuned and immensely complex vehicles to run.. But getting the actual challenge to start. Here's the thing: I need it so that when all (and ONLY all) players are in their vehicles, they ALL have to hold R1 and the match will begin. The problem is.. I need the game to be able to recognize how many players are in the game/which vehicles are being occupied so the others can be removed. SO... If there are three players in the game, only three players need to be in their vehicles and holding R1 to start the game, etc... I've been trying different configurations of 'AND' switches, using sensors to read which vehicles are being occupied, another sensor switch set to "require all" and inverted to read when all players are out of the loading area (ie, in their vehicles), and of course, the grab switches for the R1. But.. With every configuration I try, I can only seem to make it require 4 (and ONLY 4) players.. Do I need some kind of XOR in there? Halp! EDIT: Okay, so I may have found at least a working solution to this, but it involves using 6 five-input-ANDs, 4 seven-input-ANDs, and 1 whopping nine-input-AND, which needless to say, I'd like to avoid as a solution if there is a more thermo-friendly, super-duper way of going about it. I'm praying to the logic gods for this one! (rtm..?? Are you out there..?) EDIT: Scratch that, I just tested my last configuration, and it won't work. It actually requires (drumroll) just 11 of the nine-input-ANDs. Though I am confident that THIS version SHOULD work, the last part of my first edit still stands. Ennybuddy? EDIT: There seems to be a lot of confusion as to which LBP I am making this on, to which the answer is 1. I have changed the wording in this post to be less misleading.. Thank you for the LBP2 solutions nonetheless!

2010-10-19 20:22:00 Author: jdteather314 Posts: 74

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I have an idea, hang on and I'll rig up a demo . . . Edit: Done see below.

2010-10-19 22:21:00 Author: Trader Sam Posts: 92

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Awesome. You are a gentleman and a scholar. I look forward to your solution; mine is costing me a pretty chunk of valuable thermo.

2010-10-20 00:38:00 Author: jdteather314 Posts: 74

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could you put a sensor switch set to "require all" which covers the whole starting area, then each of the 4 grab switches go to an OR switch along with a reversed sensor switch in each vehicle, so that all players must be in a vehicle and all vehicles must have the grab switch grabbed or be empty, then if there are only 3 players, the grab switch is overridden on the 4th vehicle because it is empty http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o116/240sx_sean/Screenshot.png i think that should work if i understand correctly

2010-10-20 09:15:00 Author: sean96sx Posts: 71

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//~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Lets begin with the "Car" http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/3749/aphotodd.jpg As you can see the R1 simply runs off the board right now, preferably this should run through a selector so you can set which mode the car is currently in, thus deciding where the input should go. On the bottom of the board is the system that destroys unused cars. When the top wire gets a signal from the main board that the race can begin it sets the mode on the selector and then destroys any cars that don't have passengers. Yes I know the player sensor should be on the board. //~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Moving onto the main board: http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/316/aphotojj.jpg Each set of two inputs on the left comes from one of the cars, pay no attention to the extra wire in the center there, It is an old connection that didn't delete . . . The top and bottom circuit boards are identical, each of them take in inputs from the cars which are occupied or the cars that have pressed R1. Lets jump inside them shall we? //~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~The "Magic" http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/4666/aphoto1f.jpg This board takes an input on the left and only repeats it once. This means a player can hit R1 as many times as he wants, but it will only send a pulse out once. Each input is connected to a toggle in the off position. This toggle is connected to an and switch which is in turn connected to a toggle set in the on position. When a signal comes in the first toggle turns on, runs into the and switch, turns off the second toggle and also sends a signal into the or switch on the right. The reason I needed such an obnoxious system is because I only wanted to send a signal out of the chip once for each player, and only send that signal for a moment. //~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Moving back onto the main chip . . http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/316/aphotojj.jpg You will see that the output from the microchips runs into the cycle input on a pair of selectors with 5 different inputs or modes. The reason we have 5 is because we needed to have an off mode, where no-one has entered the cars or pressed R1. Each output here from 2 -> 5 is paired up with the matching output on the other selector and are plugged into a set of and chips. Each of these and chips will only turn on when the same number of players in cars have pressed R1. //~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Final Touches For my example I just hooked the outputs into an or switch and then ran this switch back onto the cars telling them to start the race and check for destruction. In your design though I would ensure that there are no players on any layers other than the layer with the cars. I'd also recommend that the only way to be on the layer with the cars is to be in a car. Just add a starting gate that takes up that layer and encase the cars in it. Then just destroy the gate when the race begins. //~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~A few thoughts This takes up almost no thermo . . . and the only problem I see that might arise is if two players enter cars at the exact same time, or hit R1 at the same instant. This shouldn't be happening often enough to worry though. If you need any more explanations, or if you see a problem in my design, let me know.

2010-10-20 10:38:00 Author: Trader Sam Posts: 92

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it seems my lbp1 logic cannot help here...oh well, i think pistons are more fun than circuit boards anyway

2010-10-20 10:47:00 Author: sean96sx Posts: 71

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Silly me, I forgot to even ask if it was a solution for LBP or LBP2. I haven't worked with LBP logic in ages, if you need something that will work in the original game let me know and I can try to work something out.

2010-10-20 10:57:00 Author: Trader Sam Posts: 92

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i'm guessing its lbp2 because he mentioned direct control

2010-10-20 11:17:00 Author: sean96sx Posts: 71

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OMGZ ALL DA SOLUTIONZ!!1! .. But seriously guys, thanks, this is amazing. Although... Trader Sam, your solution will unfortunately not be needed for another couple of months, because I am in fact still working in LBP1. I really should've clarified that in my original post; I'm terribly sorry you went through all the effort of pulling together that solution when silly piston-logic is what I needed. What was probably the confusing part was my use of "direct control"... I really should have avoided that term, because what I really meant was that I had the vehicles configured to be controlled directly by the player. It made a lot more sense to me, in the context of my creation, to include it as a detail.. But now I realize that it must have been very misleading. My apologies. sean96sx, I'm going to go try that setup. Looks like a slight variation on one of my original attempts, only yours seems more likely to work, which is really what I was looking for. Again, thank you both.

2010-10-20 13:06:00 Author: jdteather314 Posts: 74

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No worries, I'm always looking for problems to try and solve.

2010-10-20 17:19:00 Author: Trader Sam Posts: 92

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I appreciate the help. So I figured it may make things a little easier if I post some pictures of the semi-functional set-up I have now, with a description as to exactly WHAT it's doing, because it's a very specific system that needs to do some very specific things. So first, there are 11 AND switches, all with 9 inputs - the first 4 read which vehicles are being occupied, the next 4 read which ones are holding R1, and the last one to make sure the loading dock is clear. http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25621&d=1287592239 The reason there are 11 of these switches is one for every possible combination of chosen vehicles, from 2 to 4 players. Some of the pistons in the AND switches are set to backwards, depending on which combination of vehicles they represent. (ie, the backwards pistons will extend when there is NOBODY in the vehicle attached to them/nobody pressing R1 in that vehicle). http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25620&d=1287592237 When all the conditions are met for one of the AND switches, its signal is sent to any combination of those four OR switches (indicated by the red line), which are all set to remove an individual vehicle (indicated by the face of Lenin). SO, depending on which combination of conditions get met, the corresponding combination of vehicles gets removed. That other OR switch floating off to the right (edit: Sackboy's right.. Our left) receives a signal from any of the 4 vehicle-remover switches to START DA GAME (indicated by red triangle). So why do I need help? Here's why. http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25622&d=1287592714 This is possibly the foulest mess of wires I've ever had the pleasure of dealing with (a lot of them aren't even being rendered; neither is the dark matter or cardboard, apparently), and it is absolutely nose-raping the thermo and processing speed. The vehicles themselves are lag-mongers, so I don't need anything else cramming up the processing. Does this help at all?

2010-10-20 17:43:00 Author: jdteather314 Posts: 74

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I can try and build a LBP version after work.

2010-10-20 18:32:00 Author: Trader Sam Posts: 92

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How are the players getting into the vehicles? If you automatically force them to enter, then it's not so bad. There is an output from the controlinator that activates as soon as someone is in it. You can use this to your advantage, and even use very few components. It's located right in the middle of the controller layout. On each controlinator, place the following: [ Controlinator Active ] --->[invert]--- | >----->[ Exclusive OR ] ------> [ to AND gate ] | [ Controlinator R1 ] ------------------- Now, just run each of these into a 4-way AND gate, and probably add a short delay, so as to account for people lagging into the level. Now, the AND gate will only activate if everyone in a controlinator is grabbing R1. The invert on the controlinator active signal will account for the empty controlinators. Make sense?

2010-10-20 19:34:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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That's easily the simplest working solution to this I've seen yet, but unfortunately, I'm still going to have to wait a few months before I can do that. Until then, I am bound by the limitations of piston-logic. But yes, it makes perfect sense, and thank you for this proposed answer nonetheless.

2010-10-20 19:46:00 Author: jdteather314 Posts: 74

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My apologies. I saw people posting LBP2 logic setups and made an assumption. You could do a similar thing with sensors and grab switches, though. Instead of "Controlinator actve", put an inverted sensor switch over the area where the player sits.

2010-10-20 19:52:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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My apologies. I saw people posting LBP2 logic setups and made an assumption. No problem; it seems to have been a common confusion that no one but myself is to blame for. I fixed the misleading parts in the original post to alleviate the confusion. Instead of "Controlinator actve", put an inverted sensor switch over the area where the player sits. Yeah, that's how I've got it right now.. Sensors in the vehicles, and one inverted one in the loading dock.. Are you saying that all I need is an XOR leading to some ANDs? I'm not sure I understand your exact setup and which parts are replacing which.

2010-10-20 21:46:00 Author: jdteather314 Posts: 74

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Well, there's a bit more to it. It's tricky, and you must be creative about it. In a level I made with a similar concern, I had all the "vehicles" elevated on a ledge above the play space, so the logic only started "looking" for the players when everyone was on the ledge (and in the cars). It's tricky, I know. Not to mention that your description is pretty vague of what you are actually working with. Best of luck.

2010-10-20 21:53:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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hey compher, i'm pretty sure thats exactly what i said...just in lbp1 piston

2010-10-20 23:54:00 Author: sean96sx Posts: 71

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compher, was my description really that vague? I mean, I realize that I haven't gone into detail about all the functions of the vehicles, but I didn't really think that the explanations and diagrams I provided after Trader Sam's (post #11 in this thread) left much to the imagination. What am I forgetting to include?

2010-10-21 00:15:00 Author: jdteather314 Posts: 74

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it seems like all that logic is way more complicated than it needs to be...maybe if i could help you in the level it would be easier to help you, i'll sign a non-disclosure agreement if you'd like lol

2010-10-21 00:30:00 Author: sean96sx Posts: 71

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I'm down if you're down, mate. No NDA required, as long as you just say you won't give away too many details before the publish (not that you'd have any real reason to anyway). You know where to find my PSN, I'mma invest in a bluetooth keyboard, and we can sort this out a little more hands-on-like. If you're interested, I'd be absolutely honoured to have a potential tester as well. Whatchasay?

2010-10-21 02:02:00 Author: jdteather314 Posts: 74

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absolutely, i've got a usb keyboard so i can type anyway lol, its much easier than controller typing. and testing sounds like fun too, i've never done it before, but i think i could. i'll prbly be on in a little bit, if you're going to be on tonight.

2010-10-21 03:44:00 Author: sean96sx Posts: 71

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Gotta work tomorrow, so it'll be an early night for me tonight.. I sent you a PSN friend request though, and I should be on periodically over the next couple of days. I'll PM you or something to co-ordinate a time; thanks a ton!

2010-10-21 04:09:00 Author: jdteather314 Posts: 74

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How are the players getting into the vehicles? If you automatically force them to enter, then it's not so bad. There is an output from the controlinator that activates as soon as someone is in it. You can use this to your advantage, and even use very few components. It's located right in the middle of the controller layout. On each controlinator, place the following: [ Controlinator Active ] --->[invert]--- | >----->[ Exclusive OR ] ------> [ to AND gate ] | [ Controlinator R1 ] ------------------- Now, just run each of these into a 4-way AND gate, and probably add a short delay, so as to account for people lagging into the level. Now, the AND gate will only activate if everyone in a controlinator is grabbing R1. The invert on the controlinator active signal will account for the empty controlinators. Make sense? I like it . . simple and elegant. Sometimes my solutions run away with me and I solve problems in ways that are a more complex than is necessary.

2010-10-21 06:08:00 Author: Trader Sam Posts: 92

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