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NA Beta - First Impressions... and a WARNING!
Archive: 56 posts
| Well I have to say... so far I'm pretty unimpressed and outright angry with the new engine and what it's done to change existing levels. Backward compatible... not in the slightest! I'd seen several videos and comparison pics posted in the last month or so showing the differences in the old vs. the new, and admitted then that I was pretty concerned with just how much the new engine was going to change the old. Now that I've finally been able to load my own levels in, I am astounded at how horrible everything looks! Seriously, it's complete garbage! You should know that my levels are mainly based on aesthetics and atmosphere, which I achieve through a combination of lighting and the hazard tools (most often). Lighting- The lighting has so drastically changed that all my levels (save one) are completely ruined by this new engine. I'll admit that the new lighting is far more realistic and more will be able to be done with it by building in LBP2.... but selling us on backward compatibility is a bold lie at this point in time as far as I'm concerned. Levels that were dimly lit and had hidden lights used for fill light or to highlight certain areas or objects now appear dark, uninteresting, and obscured... almost non-existent. Hazards - The changes in hazards were going to be an issue for me... that I knew. Just how much though, I was not prepared for. The Horrible Gas hazard is finally aptly named, as it really does look horrible. Seriously... little puffy clouds of smoke now replace what was once a flowing whispy pocket of stinky gas. I use the gas hazard to great effect from emitters set to pulse on and off rapidly to give the effects of "repulsor lift" type propulsion systems, as well as to indicate low lying swamp gas to make wary travelers avoid certain areas. Or at least... I used to. The machines I've added the propulsion effects to look completely ridiculous now... pumping out puffy clouds of smoke that look more like the smoke from the rocket engines than anything. The other major issue with this rapid emitting of gas is that it's now creating extreme lag when those elements are on screen, where once fluid gameplay occured. Low lying swamp gas... not anymore. Now it looks like I've just found a way to make rockets invisible and slapped a bunch of them on the ground beside each other. Electricity Hazard. I've recently been working on levels with the intention of importing them into LBP2 and using the awesome new tools to tweak the levels and make them better by achieving things I can't do to them in the first game. Turns out... hours and hours of work has just gone into the toilet. I've created a really amazing looking Tesla Coil lightning arc effect about a month ago that looks gorgeous in LBP1, and is a pretty important effect as far as visuals AND gameplay go. Upon loading my old level and checking it out... I almost wanted to cry. The arcs are generated by a complex system of emmiters, and used to flash on the screen and crackle through the air. Now, they are accompanied by a black outline of smoke when emitted... completely ruining the effect! I don't know if this is an issue with the emitters themselves, or if it's due to the changes in the engine... but it looks like something a four year old threw together. I don't mean to sound so negative, but I am so completely frustrated with some of these new changes that I don't even want to think about the beta right now. Luckily though, I'm a trooper and will continue to trudge through looking for bugs and trying to find the silver lining that I'm hoping the game will provide somehow. Don't get me wrong... the new game really does look amazing and is a wonderful thing on it's own, but the notion and claims of it being backward compatible are completely outrageous in my opinion. In wrapping up, I'd just like to give a friendly... WARNING ...to anyone that relies heavily on lighting or any hazards for visual flair, who have been creating levels in LBP with the intentions of importing and tweaking them in LBP2. Simply put... stop what you are doing now and wait to add these elements in LBP2 on it's release. Honestly folks, I'm not trying to be a jerk or smear Mm's good name... they really are a wonderful company and this is still my absolute favourite game. I just wish someone in the EU beta had created a similar post outlining just how drastic the changes are and what they will do to your LBP levels, and saved me the grief of finding out now. If you are all about the visuals in this game... you'd do well to heed my warning. Happy Gadding! Cheers!  | 2010-10-16 21:56:00 Author: Rustbukkit  Posts: 1737 |
| This was brought up a while ago when level comparisons were made. I'm sure they'd need a lot of tweaking now. Just like you found ways to have interesting visual effects in the first game, you'd need to find new ones (or rearrange) them now. I think the backwards support is mostly at a basic level to make sure things just work physically. If you made a level that was made in such a peculiar way.. well.. I'm not in the LBP2 beta, but can you change the emitter effects and gas transparency? | 2010-10-16 22:58:00 Author: Cheezy WEAPON  Posts: 283 |
| you should be able to adjust the emitters to not have that smoke from what i understand. | 2010-10-16 23:21:00 Author: Deftmute  Posts: 730 |
| . Thanks for the heads up on that. I'll look into the emitter settings later tonight when my roommates finish playing soccer and let me back on. Hopefully I can at least save my Tesla arc effects... I really put a lot of time into them. . | 2010-10-16 23:29:00 Author: Rustbukkit Posts: 1737 |
| I have to agree. The lighting and hazard effects are truly awful. The glow around electric is horrendous and totally ruins my 'bullet' effect in Sheriff Sack 2, and there's no way to tweak it. They should at least give us the option to tweak the glow radius. The plasma is really bad too. You can stand and let the plasma hit you now without dying a lot of the time. The pod lighting is bad too, it ruins any attempt to make a decent pod. If you've got the beta before the 1.01 patch you'd better expect lots and lots of crashes too I'm afraid. Before the patch I had around 40/50 crashes, one of which corrupted my profile completely and meant I had to start all over again. | 2010-10-17 00:53:00 Author: mistervista  Posts: 2210 |
| ...Looks like it's a good think I kept holding off my level projects until LBP2. I think that this is really bad. I hope Mm gives you the option of making levels run with the old graphics engine, but I doubt that's possible... | 2010-10-17 02:15:00 Author: Stoicrow  Posts: 276 |
| Yeah, plenty o' crashes on my end. It's locking up my system almost every single time I quit the game. Even turns my controller off completely. Can't wait for the patch. I mean, I'm still really impressed with the game for the most part and understand it's still buggy... that's fine because it's only beta. But I'm really surprised at the major differences and that these didn't seem to be a problem in the collective mind of Mm. At least enough to somehow re-code it so that our old effects might remain the even remotely similar, or create new pnes that resemble the old that we could swap out with the lethalize tool. I know nothing about coding and it's complexities and there may very well have been no solution to keeping the same look, but I honestly find that possibility hard to believe. I'm just amazed at the differences being viewed on YouTube videos... and seeing them with my own eyes I guess. It's pretty shocking and I was really taken back when I wrote the OP. . | 2010-10-17 02:27:00 Author: Rustbukkit Posts: 1737 |
| Looks fine to me. I imported my Mona Lisa and Jimi Hendrix paintings into the beta and they came out just the same as in LBP. But, of course, they are just stickers and material, not lights or hazards. :/ | 2010-10-17 03:06:00 Author: Bremnen Posts: 1800 |
| Seems to me on the tonal scale the curve is really wonky. Lights and highlights are way too bright. Darks and shadows are too dark. I think this is what makes plasma and electrified stuff just horribly over done. Sorta like a photographed retouched by someone into very bright neon lights and way too many sparklers.. lol | 2010-10-17 03:25:00 Author: jwwphotos  Posts: 11383 |
| Man, this issue is going to throw me for a loop. I'm not in the beta so I'm going to spend that time finishing a level that's pretty complex. Now I'm going to need to decide whether I just risk it or wait. I'll probably finish so I can start fresh with LBP2 but it takes a little wind out of my sails. So do some of the SFX really look worse than LBP 1? In MM's defense on this....backwards compatibility is a pain in the @&$. Each user will utilize the available tools in different ways so someone usually loses if you make any updates. But to Rustbukkit's point, if you claim it's fully compatible then I expect it to be fully compatible! | 2010-10-17 03:32:00 Author: phife211  Posts: 62 |
This is the "can't do glitch jumps" argument all over again.  What I suggest is: Keep your LBP1 levels for LBP1. If you're making a LBP2 level in LBP1, go lite on the visual aspect and just focus on the general shape and functions of your level. The lighting and hazards have gotten a visual uplift and from what I see, shadows behave more realistically (they appear in corners and get darker when they overlap) and lights glow, making them have more impact. The most obvious change is the gas is not a simple swirly effect one one layer, it's now a thick cloud that expands to how many layers you set it. If your LBP1 level is very light-heavy (haha), you're going to have to plan ahead and leave them last or just wait till Jan. (And if you're in the beta, just make smallish levels. Experiment.) | 2010-10-17 05:14:00 Author: Cheezy WEAPON Posts: 283 |
| Yeah.. I agree up to a point. I was mostly making a comment on what it looked like to me. If I were to do a level with this, I would tweak lights and the environment accordingly. I guess on the other hand, I was just a bit disappointed at how non backwards compatible my levels were to the point they won't work and blow the thermo through the roof if I try and fix. I would almost rather not have backwards compatibility if that were the case. ...good news is it is still early and lots of bugs yet to fix. I can't remember how many different looks water and all it's goodies had before it came out. I was mostly just amazed at how bright the highlights are in an empty level and in the pod. Almost like "I need to wear shades to look at it" sort of bright. | 2010-10-17 05:56:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383 |
| This is the "can't do glitch jumps" argument all over again. What I suggest is: Keep your LBP1 levels for LBP1. If you're making a LBP2 level in LBP1, go lite on the visual aspect and just focus on the general shape and functions of your level. The lighting and hazards have gotten a visual uplift and from what I see, shadows behave more realistically (they appear in corners and get darker when they overlap) and lights glow, making them have more impact. The most obvious change is the gas is not a simple swirly effect one one layer, it's now a thick cloud that expands to how many layers you set it. If your LBP1 level is very light-heavy (haha), you're going to have to plan ahead and leave them last or just wait till Jan. (And if you're in the beta, just make smallish levels. Experiment.) Not sure I'd compare this to the "gltich jumps' arguement at all. I read that thread, and honestly don't see the comparison. You strengthen my points nicely though. Build simple, leave lighting and hazards and other visuals till you can import... then tweak... for sure. As I said, I watched quite a few video and photo comparisons... but it's not until you actually see how much it's changed with your own eyes that it really hits home. If anyone knows of a good video/photo sharing site that works on the PS3 browser, I'd love to throw up some comparison vids to show you the kinds of things you'll be dealing with if your building in LBP to transfer to LBP2 as I've been doing. I've seen comparisons done on a few things, but nothing quite like the stuff I've been using lighting and hazards for. As mistervista stated... there's no way to fix or tweak these things. We haven't even gotten into the aspect of how many levels are also physically broken by the gas... unless that was fixed in the patch (though I haven't seen any discussions stating that's happened). For now, I'm going to keep on learning the new tools, looking for bugs, and trying to get that Bug Blaster costume I really would love to have. It's going to be tough to find any since the good EU folks have had it so long... but I'm still hopefull. | 2010-10-17 06:05:00 Author: Rustbukkit Posts: 1737 |
| Ya, my stuff is way too overlit and the new lighting takes a little getting used to. There are whole new rules for this one that all the tricks from 1 don't work with. I'm a little sad for the whole backward compatible dream, I don't see it happening. On a positive note, yes, new levels built in 2 will look great and some of the new lighting effects are cool. Just need to learn this new lighting language all over again. | 2010-10-17 06:09:00 Author: Morgana25  Posts: 5983 |
| this is really getting me down but i know NA didn't get the latest version of beta and they are still taking suggestions. The gas really just looks crappy. It doesn't even fully load on the screen depending on your distance. It has a really bad draw distance but so does the fire. I'm hoping this is fixed too. The fire looks better on the material but theres barely any flames and the smoke is ugly. Smoke is the same as gas basically. The lighting has weird issues with lights going on and off depending on the distance you are from it...or something? If you use enlarged spotlights or a really long beam it makes the shadow look bad. you see layers of the objects shadow all lined up. looks so bad. Yeah the lights are crazy bright which is annoying but at least there's more ways to adjust them now. Color correction doesn't have some of the old filters so old levels will look different. I can't even fix an old level to look normal because of this. all of those things are issues with backwards compatibility but I also see them being issues with lbp2 levels too, esp the shadows from the lights. I do think they will fix a lot of this stuff though... | 2010-10-17 06:20:00 Author: Nattura  Posts: 86 |
| I believe some of these issues (such as draw distances, stickers, the gas disappearing, and some other problems of the same nature) could stem from having to compress all the data into a download-sized game. Although, I see what everyone is saying about the hazards and lighting. They aren't fully backwards compatible, but at least they don't break the level do they? It probably doesn't seem all that great now, but two months after the actual release, most of us will be creating entire levels exclusively with LBP2 and a lot of these effects we will be able to use to our advantage to make simply amazing levels that couldn't have ever been done in the first game. | 2010-10-17 06:50:00 Author: piggabling  Posts: 2979 |
| Is it me or is there fewer color correction settings now? I can't even find the B/W with red highlights setting anymore...and my level that had a bright, colorful lighting correction turned to cold blue in LBP2. Not much of a problem, but I would like to see the same amount, or more color correction options in LBP2. | 2010-10-17 07:03:00 Author: warlord_evil  Posts: 4193 |
| Can you guys do me a favor and mention this on the beta forums? Mostly the gas and lighting popping in and out. That sounds pretty serious.. | 2010-10-17 07:37:00 Author: Cheezy WEAPON Posts: 283 |
| I noticed some issues. I tried out my War of Souls level, which uses a blueish color correction for a kind of Soul Reaver feel and it's pink now. There were also a few effects that didn't work right and I had to add in a start gate because it just defaulted the checkpoint that was furthest to the left as the start. These are known issues, though. I also noticed a few other things that I'll report as soon as I get the 1.01 patch so I can see if they're still issues. Honestly, though, I don't really care about these issues. My lbp1 stuff was almost exclusively me trying to push the boundaries and make things that really shouldn't have worked. In lbp2 it'll be a simple matter to make stuff that blows all my lbp1 stuff away. In fact, if I had the option to just leave my old stuff on the lbp1 server and not have any show up as bc in lbp2, I'd do it. I like the new gas and fire effects. I didn't notice anything special about the electricity for better or worse so I'll have to take another look at that. Plasma seems ok too, and I love being able to plasmafy stuff without having to use a glitch. The emitter smoke is easy enough to get rid of, though I admit it is annoying that glass in bc levels will smoke when demitted (my lightning got messed up too). One thing that does kind of annoy me, though, is that the lighting doesn't flatten out when you go into front view--I don't know how we're gonna' manage to make decent custom stickers without flat lighting. I'm also a little disappointed with the camera angles--I'd gotten the impression that we'd be able to angle them further into the screen to get an almost 3rd person viewpoint, but it's nowhere near that flexible. I'm still hoping that a trick will be found to combine two cameras' angles (like what you can do with a magic mouth and a game camera, but without freezing the player). But yeah, I'm mostly having a positive experience with the beta. The logic is confusing me a little here and there (the mechanical stuff made sense to me 'cuz I could see what everything was doing) but I'm getting the hang of it, and I've loved most of what I've seen visually. In the first evening I redid a spaceship I was working on in lbp1 and made it awesome, and I just got done messing with a logic setup to make a sackbot pick up the lethal properties of any hazard he touches. | 2010-10-17 08:16:00 Author: Sehven  Posts: 2188 |
| Can you guys do me a favor and mention this on the beta forums? Mostly the gas and lighting popping in and out. That sounds pretty serious.. Which.. the official beta forums? I'm going to wait and see if the patch cleans up any of this mess (though I'm doubtful) before saying anything, plus we're not supposed to be reporting bugs until they give us the patch. I don't see that it's going to make any difference though... Mm have to be aware of the issue by now and it's not like they weren't "in the know" months and months ago either. I'd hope that they are making some sort of effort to fix these issues, but I'm pretty sure it's too late for that at this point in the game. It does sound pretty serious, and depending on who you are and how your levels have been affected.. it absolutely is. It's sad to think of some of the amazing and wonderful levels in LBP that will simply turn into a big ugly mess once imported into the new game. I guess the new tagline in the ads should read "Oh... and those two million user created levels? Still there! Well... mostly there. Okay, lot's of them don't look very good anymore, but... you get the idea." lolz  IAlthough, I see what everyone is saying about the hazards and lighting. They aren't fully backwards compatible, but at least they don't break the level do they? It probably doesn't seem all that great now, but two months after the actual release, most of us will be creating entire levels exclusively with LBP2 and a lot of these effects we will be able to use to our advantage to make simply amazing levels that couldn't have ever been done in the first game. *Quote from an article with Digital Foundry and what they had to say about how this effects visual elements and gameplay on their own levels.* So, the renderer for LittleBigPlanet 2 is hugely improved over the original game, and there's no doubt about it - you do see a multitude of improvements when you import your existing levels into the new game. It's a very cool feature but we have a number of concerns about it. Firstly, the level of backwards compatibility in the beta is pretty questionable and in several of our own stages the gameplay mechanics are fundamentally broken when ported into LBP2. LBP2 improves on the original's renderer in almost every regard. However, object-based motion blur appears to have been omitted in the sequel in favour of a surface-based texture blur.A dancing level we have has light mechanics that never start. A black and white stage suddenly has coloured gas and fire effects, while the global illumination added to the sequel can break the visual look of levels built with a very specific lighting balance. A water effect crafted using glass no longer works as the glass pieces are clearly visible, and it seems that fog can no longer be black, meaning a mysterious-looking cave now has completely out-of-place puffy clouds instead. Chances are that a great deal of the original content will work, and will look better, but a decent percentage of levels will need to be retooled. And the question then is, why bother? The next-generation creation tools in LBP2 are so far beyond what we had to play with in the original that adventurous creators will have little interest in tweaking their existing work - the possibilities inherent in the new tools are just irresistible. I thought I had read somewhere that things were physically breaking in levels as a direct result of the change in the gas... but I could be wrong. Perhaps it was on the Bug Avalanche list in the Beta forums? You make a good point about where we will be in two months.. except for the fact that we are specifically talking about old levels that simply don't work anymore (and believe me... there will be lot's of them), or levels people have been making with the intention of importing and adding new features and making tweaks based on the game being sold as backward compatible. It's frustrating because there's absolutely no way Mm weren't award of the huge difference in these visual elements. Personally, I think they would have served the community well to be completely up front and admit that there are some fairly major issues with it where visuals are concerned. Again, I love Mm and the game... but feel that this was a gross oversight to not address with it's community. As soon as we heard "backward compatible" in the same sentence as "new game elements", many of us began creating levels with this in mind because we took this statement at face value. I would have much preferred a more honest and direct approach from them showing us clear examples of how different things really do look so that we could stand back and think about how better we could spend our time creating, instead of having levels that are so visually broken that some of them might not even be worth going back in to fix (let alone be salvageable at all). I appreciate that some people's levels have not been affected by this enough to understand just how radical the changes are and how they have affected others. But to pass it off as "Oh well, just make something new in LBP2" is really frustrating to hear. Some of us are beginning to realize the impact, while others will have to wait and see for themselves. I'm just hoping that enough people see the OP and be very cautious of what they create in the next few months before the game's release. If I had been able to actually see the differences two months ago.. I would have stuck to building nothing but basic sets, simple props or objects, and done more sketching of ideas. That, or done a little more bicycling... there's a vine growing on my bike that runs up through the seat. That's bad... right? | 2010-10-17 08:21:00 Author: Rustbukkit Posts: 1737 |
| I have to agree with most everything said here so far. In fairness, I've never seen v1.01. Of the levels I imported, the more time I spent on appearance, the worse the levels looked. Two are just short mini-game/concepts, and this sort looked better. With one I actually spent time on building atmosphere, so of course that's all out the window. They all play at least as well in LBP2, so Mm definitely got the physical stuff down, but fire and gas are just so different. Some levels are like the first time you've seen them. I think we'll just have to put disclaimers in the descriptions: For true enjoyment of this level, please boot up LBP1 and see what the author intended. No doubt that'll be heeded even less than "1 Player Only" lol. The new pod lighting really does need some serious help, as mrvista pointed out. I covered the windows with the cobweb decoration(that I love) and the inside is more like being in the spider than being in the web. A simple slider to adjust brightness level would suit me fine though. I do like the walls that fade away--it allows more range of expression since you don't have to mind not blocking the view when you design a pod. That space would seem to be the natural one to build costumes in, but with no zoom and no light it is impossible. I wish most of my costumes came with me too, since 90% of our DLC was bought with my wife's PSN... I will be angry if the full game won't let me use it. All in all, most of my ramblings here are just me resisting change (its in my nature). After we wear this new game long enough to get it broke in we'll laugh about all the things we had to put up with in LPB1. | 2010-10-17 10:41:00 Author: Unknown User  |
| I was horrified at the lighting to begin with, but once I'd tweaked or replaced all the lights in my levels I felt that the aesthetic was better. There are some cool new lights in the game and all of them give a slightly different ambiance, so experiment with them. | 2010-10-17 12:07:00 Author: Ungreth  Posts: 2130 |
| once I'd tweaked or replaced all the lights in my levels I felt that the aesthetic was better. That's a good point, but the problem Rustbukkit has is that our levels aren't going to be tweaked in lbp2. We're talking about levels published in lbp1 which will show up on the full game's servers as playable levels and will look like crap. It's bad enough that if I could opt out of having my lbp1 levels show up in lbp2, I would. I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to tweak them to look good in lbp2, but that means taking the time to convert them and then dedicating one of your lbp2 publishing slots to an lbp1 level that's still published. The reason it doesn't affect me so much is because everything I've done has been to try to bring lbp1 functionality closer to lbp2 (even before lbp2 was announced). Some of my stuff are engineering marvels in their own right, but next to stuff built with lbp2 tools, they're laughable in comparison. I'd rather just build a new mech for lbp2 and leave my lbp1 mechs out of the game. But the difference between me and pretty much everybody else, is that they put serious time into designing levels while I put all my time into contraptions. Many of those levels were works of art and it's like somebody has badly photoshopped the heck out of them and republished them under the original artists' names. Honestly, though (and this will probably annoy rb--sorry), I think it's worth it. These things that are breaking some lbp1 levels are actually improvements and will give us the ability to make better levels in lbp2. I'm loving everything about lbp2 so far and I'm stoked for the full game when it comes out. | 2010-10-17 18:36:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188 |
| I am very curious to see what my "art" levels look like... Wasnt able to import them, but i will be trying again tonight. | 2010-10-17 19:04:00 Author: Deftmute Posts: 730 |
| Lots of great arguements and viewpoints... thanks for participating in the discussion foks! I like Col_Pickering's idea of the DISCLAIMER..For true enjoyment of this level, please boot up LBP1 and see what the author intended. Though it's true, that it will likely be mostly ignored by people like the "1 Player Only" warning. Sehven, you are right about the topic.... but I definitely am also talking about building in LBP with the intent of bringing those levels into LBP2 to "finish" them as well. Most of the levels and ideas I've been working on were done for this reason specifically. Thats why its so disappointing, because I believed it to be backward compatible like many others. Doesn't annoy me at all, and I understand and totally respect that you think it's ultimately worth it in the end. I have to admit that I haven't gone in and tweaked my levels that I've imported yet, because I've been learning about the rest of the game and it's tools... but mostly for fear of finding out exactly how much work I have ahead of me to fix the problems. I think we all know what it's like to finish something, stand back, and realize you have to go back in and fix things that you never knew were broken. This is the case with the new look, and it's frutrating to have keep working on something you considered to be "done" when you were happy with the results as they were. I'd equate it to spending hours and hours on a model airplane, then coming home to find your 4 year old nephew has been flying it around the room and throwing into walls. lol I know that I'm going to have to go in and tweak and change a lot of things that I considered to be finished elements, and I know for certain that some of those effects simply won't be able to be replicated in LBP2. Oh well... at least new we have a great new chimney smoke with the Horrible Gas. | 2010-10-17 19:25:00 Author: Rustbukkit Posts: 1737 |
| I think an "LBP1" author tag would make a good disclaimer - but you'd have to convert the level to LBP2 for the tagging to work! I haven't tried the smoke machine yet, but that might serve some purpose. I'm also thinking about really thin, lethal, darkened hologram to serve the same purpose. I'm generally of the opinion that people should only be building objects in LBP1 at this point. Trying to make anything look or move in any specific way is clearly a fool's errand at this point. I guess I'm not afraid of the changeover in the long haul. I'll leave my LBP1 stuff archived in LBP1 as is, but update each one in LBP2. LBP2 players can slum it or not, as they choose. | 2010-10-18 00:20:00 Author: coyote_blue  Posts: 422 |
| i'll admit that i had some prototypes built in lbp1 that were plans for lbp2 projects... but i never actually planned on porting them straight over. it was more a proof of concept for me than anything i expected to carry over. | 2010-10-18 00:51:00 Author: Deftmute Posts: 730 |
| That's a good point, but the problem Rustbukkit has is that our levels aren't going to be tweaked in lbp2. We're talking about levels published in lbp1 which will show up on the full game's servers as playable levels and will look like crap. It's bad enough that if I could opt out of having my lbp1 levels show up in lbp2, I would. I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to tweak them to look good in lbp2, but that means taking the time to convert them and then dedicating one of your lbp2 publishing slots to an lbp1 level that's still published. LBP levels will only appear on LBP2 servers after you republish them, so nobody will be playing your broken levels unless you want em to. | 2010-10-18 08:27:00 Author: Ungreth Posts: 2130 |
| LBP levels will only appear on LBP2 servers after you republish them, so nobody will be playing your broken levels unless you want em to. True, but for me it was hard to find out they are broken until you played them. Part of the Beta exercise a week ago was to fire up the original beta client, publish a few levels and play a bit with LBP.me which I did. However it wasn't until I got the LBP2 beta this past Friday that I found out how broken at least one of the levels were. I would like to fix it, but I can't because the thermo is through the roof. ...and not so sure I should delete it as Mm is wanting to test backwards compatibility and sometimes they want those out there so they can snag them and take a look. | 2010-10-18 12:57:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383 |
| I'd leave it up for them jjwphotos, I think the more levels they see that look vastly different (or horrible) the better. Besides, I'm pretty sure we are supposed to actually be reporing broken levels to them so they can go in and see for themselves once it's reported... at least, I thought I read that from them somewhere on the official forum.(?) | 2010-10-18 15:08:00 Author: Rustbukkit Posts: 1737 |
| True, but for me it was hard to find out they are broken until you played them. Part of the Beta exercise a week ago was to fire up the original beta client, publish a few levels and play a bit with LBP.me which I did. However it wasn't until I got the LBP2 beta this past Friday that I found out how broken at least one of the levels were. I would like to fix it, but I can't because the thermo is through the roof. ...and not so sure I should delete it as Mm is wanting to test backwards compatibility and sometimes they want those out there so they can snag them and take a look. I feel your pain there mate. Every single level I ever made was broken in some way after the transition to the beta. Having used Aya's exploit to eke out an extra 30% of thermo allowance, Space Assassin's completely imploded upon itself just as you might expect, but even Tenement which had thermo left to use in LBP1 had somehow overheated when I checked it in the beta. What I did was to split Tenement into 2 parts. This gave me back huge amounts of thermo which I used to develop each part of the level far beyond the scope of what I could ever have achieved in LBP1, and now I've almost finished remixing everything I've gotta say that Tenement v.2 totally kicks v.1 in the balls and rips out it's spleen. You''ll see what I mean soon enough though, once I finally get the chance to drag C over to my pod for a playtest. | 2010-10-18 17:20:00 Author: Ungreth Posts: 2130 |
| I think an "LBP1" author tag would make a good disclaimer - but you'd have to convert the level to LBP2 for the tagging to work! In full game all LBP1 levels from current database will be on same lists and will be marked, some already are with pink LBP tree on upper left corner, also in filter options you can turn off and on showing off LBP1 or LBP2 | 2010-10-18 18:01:00 Author: Shadowriver  Posts: 3991 |
| I wasnt able to publish them for some reason but i did get in and run around in LA1. The cameras are tweaked differently, but the lighting seemed fine. | 2010-10-18 18:05:00 Author: Deftmute Posts: 730 |
| Lighting- The lighting has so drastically changed that all my levels (save one) are completely ruined by this new engine. I'll admit that the new lighting is far more realistic and more will be able to be done with it by building in LBP2.... but selling us on backward compatibility is a bold lie at this point in time as far as I'm concerned. Levels that were dimly lit and had hidden lights used for fill light or to highlight certain areas or objects now appear dark, uninteresting, and obscured... almost non-existent. Yes, the way lighting has changed will render your scenes much differently. Remember, you were building those scenes with the limitations you had with LBP1. The lights are still "compatible," they just appear differently with the they're rendered in the new engine. The Horrible Gas hazard is finally aptly named, as it really does look horrible. Seriously... little puffy clouds of smoke now replace what was once a flowing whispy pocket of stinky gas. I use the gas hazard to great effect from emitters set to pulse on and off rapidly to give the effects of "repulsor lift" type propulsion systems, as well as to indicate low lying swamp gas to make wary travelers avoid certain areas. Or at least... I used to. The machines I've added the propulsion effects to look completely ridiculous now... pumping out puffy clouds of smoke that look more like the smoke from the rocket engines than anything.So you admit that you were probably using the gas tool for a purpose for which it was not intended. The gas tool was meant to create a hazard to the player, not for special effects such as the ones you describe. While it was used (exploited?) for this purpose in your levels, I wouldn't consider this "breaking" your level. The other major issue with this rapid emitting of gas is that it's now creating extreme lag when those elements are on screen, where once fluid gameplay occured. Low lying swamp gas... not anymore. Now it looks like I've just found a way to make rockets invisible and slapped a bunch of them on the ground beside each other.I'm fairly certain that the engine will be tweaked going forward to make it more smooth. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why the game has been delayed? Electricity Hazard. ...I've created a really amazing looking Tesla Coil lightning arc effect about a month ago that looks gorgeous in LBP1, and is a pretty important effect as far as visuals AND gameplay go. Upon loading my old level and checking it out... I almost wanted to cry. The arcs are generated by a complex system of emmiters, and used to flash on the screen and crackle through the air. Now, they are accompanied by a black outline of smoke when emitted... completely ruining the effect! I don't know if this is an issue with the emitters themselves, or if it's due to the changes in the engine...Again, we're talking about a complex system of emitters to create a visual effect. Those emitters still function properly, right? They just appear differently in the new engine? Having used Aya's exploit to eke out an extra 30% of thermo allowance, Space Assassin's completely imploded upon itself just as you might expect... I wouldn't be surprised if lots of "exploits" such as this will break in LBP2. They are called exploits for a reason, and this one in particular was designed specifically to push the engine past what it should normally be able to handle. A simple solution would be to copy parts of your levels into two separate levels, remove and/or re-design things that will be much more thermo-effecient in LBP2, and potentially combine and publish again. The only exploits I've personally used to date are the background layers and using emitted (invisible) dark matter. (The latter of the two kinda being a two-fer, as it's technically two exploits in one.) I'm fairly sure background layers are still wholly intact, as are the properties of emitted dark matter. Invisible materials can be made quite simply in LBP2 now, and no longer requires the creation of those materials through other means. It should be expected that levels created in one engine and sets of behavior would look and function somewhat differently under new parameters of the new engine. However, keep in mind that "compatibility" is not another word for identical. The definition of "compatible" is to be able to exist or occur together without conflict. Your levels will most likely function precisely the same, they'll just look radically different due to the way certain elements are now rendered. I will say this, however: it would be nice if they included a "render elements in LBP1" to make certain elements like lighting, fire, smoke, gas and electricity appear like they used to, but with LBP2 logic, properties and materials. That would solve your problem right there. Who knows? My own personal take is that once LBP2 hits, I'm not going to be looking back. My LBP1 levels will remain there, and for good reason: the possibilities for creation in LBP2 just have so much more potential. If your goal is to take and build on your work from LBP1, there are certainly ways around that, as I described above. Instead of building from scratch, your time will be spent making things "look" right again. This complaint seems to be one about appearances, not necessarily compatibility. Just my two pennies.  | 2010-10-18 18:08:00 Author: schm0  Posts: 1239 |
| whilst i can fully appreciate the concerns with these discrepancies, i would also bare in mind that things could have been a lot worse. LBP2 could have eschewed BC altogether. | 2010-10-18 19:09:00 Author: GribbleGrunger  Posts: 3910 |
| i just dont know why people complain. your lbp1 levels had a good run in lbp1 and lbp2 is for the next step beyond. not to stare at levels from the time before time... | 2010-10-18 19:35:00 Author: Screeno  Posts: 153 |
| So you admit that you were probably using the gas tool for a purpose for which it was not intended. The gas tool was meant to create a hazard to the player, not for special effects such as the ones you describe. While it was used (exploited?) for this purpose in your levels, I wouldn't consider this "breaking" your level. I've used it as hazards as well, as i've already mentioned in the thread.. and as a hazard, it also looks terrible. Part of the complaints and issues people have with it are just that. It looks nothing like a gas... and although the render in LBP wasn't perfect, it far more resembled gas than it does in the new engine. I simply looks more like smoke from the rocket. The fact that I've used it in a creative way is irrelvant in my opinion, because that's what Mm expect from us. They've said this many times actually. It's not an exploit like the layer glitch, cow glitch, dm glitch, or any other possibly game breaking glitch out there. I've been very cautious NOT to use any major glitches or exploits for this reason alone. The fact is that it doesn't even closely resemble the original hazard and that's an issue for many of us. They would have been better off to re-name it "Puffy Killer Clouds" and created a new hazard that more closely resembles the old one and call that "Horrible Gas" so that we could just go in with the lethalizer tool and swap them out. I hardly think it's an impossible task. I just think that it wasn't an important thing for them to serioulsy look at and how it might affect the old levels that they have been implying would be backward compatible,and that they've mentioned as part of their campaign. I'm fairly certain that the engine will be tweaked going forward to make it more smooth. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why the game has been delayed? That's also my thinking, and my fingers are crossed. I think they might have been pressured by Sony to get the game done by a certain time and that the deadline was just unrealistic but they said it's a possiblity to keep Sony at bay. It happens all the time in the creative media industries, and you usually have a bunch of "suits" calling the shots when they know butkiss about the creative process and how much time things actually take to create. I deal with this on a daily basis in both animation, as well as live action film. So yeah, I'm hoping it's a fix that's in the works. Again, we're talking about a complex system of emitters to create a visual effect. Those emitters still function properly, right? They just appear differently in the new engine? This is one I'm still unaware of. I haven't gone in to REALLY take a good look at what's going on as I only recently finished the level piece and am simply tired of looking at and mucking with it. I should be able to figure more out in the next few days, but it doesn't look like anything is working the same. On my initial viewing, it appeared as though the emitters weren't all firing and that the ones that were are leaving a thick black outline of smoke when they disappear. This effect was very minor in LBP and the new engine seems to have really enhanced the smoke left behind. I'm under the impressoin that this smoke can be removed... so if that's the case it will certainly help. The electricity itslef just looks horrible now though. The nice soft glow and blue tinge that sold the original effect are simply gone now. On the upside though, I've been mucking about with the holo-material and think I might be able to replicate it with that. Again, it just sucks because all those hours and hours of work have to be re-done again to achieve this with the holo-mat. Also, I have noticed some other parts of levels not working, and this seems to be an issue with Mag Keys and switches VS. Tags and Tag switches. I think that may be what's affecting the lightning emmiters too, but I have to go in and really take a close look still. I'm hopeful that I can find a work-around that will not have a high hourly cost... but not optomistic.  We'll see though. I will say this, however: it would be nice if they included a "render elements in LBP1" to make certain elements like lighting, fire, smoke, gas and electricity appear like they used to, but with LBP2 logic, properties and materials. That would solve your problem right there. Who knows? ^^ !!THIS!! ^^  My own personal take is that once LBP2 hits, I'm not going to be looking back. My LBP1 levels will remain there, and for good reason: the possibilities for creation in LBP2 just have so much more potential. Again, I've been building in LBP with the intentions of bringing in to tweak in LBP2 based solely on the fact that Mm is using the backward compatible angle to hype the game in their ad campaigns. If only "certain" parts are truly BC, then they shouldn't even bother using it as a selling feature for the game... it's sketchy and what I would consider to be false advertising. If so many LBP levels are visually ruined in the new game... it's simply not BC and shouldn't be fed to us as being so. If your goal is to take and build on your work from LBP1, there are certainly ways around that, as I described above. Instead of building from scratch, your time will be spent making things "look" right again. This complaint seems to be one about appearances, not necessarily compatibility. How is appearance not a compatability issue? It's half of the game. Here's an example I'd equate it to - Sony comes out with the new PS4 and says that all games will be bacward compatible. Then on release, people start throwing their old games in only to find that all the night time levels in COD MW2 now have bright green neon grass, and it's so dark that the players can no longer see where they are going, let alone the enemies. All the explosions (our hazard equivalent) are now fluffy whisps of smoke that make us fee like we're being attacked by a gang of cute bunnies in the distant, rather than gun-toting villians. Are you going to tell me that wouldn't ruin the immersive factor of the gameplay? Do you honestly think that no one would be upset about their favourite game being ruined by the new PS4's engine claiming to be backward compatible when it's clearly not? I think they would. You know who'd be even more cheesed off? Infinity Ward... because all their hard work just went into the toilet, and no one wan't to play their game anymore. As for your suggestins of building and tweaking... no need to tell me... that's why I created this thread in the first place (though it doesn't hurt to be brought up again for those who may have missed the entire point of this thread. I really do want people to see this thread and understand just how different things look, so that they stop what they are doing if they are creating with the intent to import and tweak as I was. Building basic level pieces or objects is fine, and those will transfer over beautifully. (In fact, all my ships, robots, set pieces, and other solid objects are stunningly gorgeous compared to what they looked like in LBP... and that makes me tickled purple (sorry... pink is for gurlz). I simply want people to be warned to avoid using any hazards or lighting effects until they actually import their work into the final game... then add those elements there. There are several new lights as well, that will offer people more options. The basic spotlight in the original behaves NOTHING like it used to in LBP2.. the lighting really is vastly different. i just dont know why people complain. your lbp1 levels had a good run in lbp1 and lbp2 is for the next step beyond. not to stare at levels from the time before time... Perhaps you don't know why because you're not a visual artist like many of us, or don't really care about that aspect of the game and creating. I think you've missed the entire point of this thread and the concerns of those who are in agreement. The point is not about whether levels had a "good run" or not. We were told this game would be backward compatible... it's not. Your post makes no sense at all, and the reason Mm made the game backward compatible is for the exact opposite reason of your opinion above. They WANT us to have access to all the levels in LBP... it's part of the tagline in their ads for goodness sake. Anyone who says the visual style of this game isn't as an important element as the funcitionality needs to have their eyes and head checked. If visual elements of the game weren't important, Mm wouldn't have bothered making changes at all to the game engine. Also... we'd all still be playing games with pixelated stickmen like I did on my InteleVision growing up. The fact that they did, clearly illustrates that visuals are a major selling point for the game... it looks beautiful and is completely unique to other games on the market. I just think that the changes are more significant than we could have imagined... and that they negatively impact on the idea of being backward compatible and many levels that were built in the first game. I've had more time to start delving in and fix and tweak things to see what can be done. Some things can be fixed, but some just can't. The fact that I can't fix or replicate specific things sucks, but I know it's not the end of the world. However, his is a discussion forum folks... let's not forget that. All members have a right to voice their opinion and "complain" as you and others put it, just like you have the right to your opinion. No offense intended, but if the topic bothers you and you have nothing to offer other than calling us complainers, then please find something else to do where you might be more productive and helpful to the forum. If you have some suggestions or good solid arguements to back up your opinions as to why this is unimportant, I'd love you to stick around and get involved. If not, please don't be offended it we don't take notice... we're busy talking visuals here... and how to possibly fix them. | 2010-10-19 03:06:00 Author: Rustbukkit Posts: 1737 |
| I've used it as hazards as well, as i've already mentioned in the thread.. and as a hazard, it also looks terrible. Part of the complaints and issues people have with it are just that. It looks nothing like a gas... and although the render in LBP wasn't perfect, it far more resembled gas than it does in the new engine. I simply looks more like smoke from the rocket. The fact that I've used it in a creative way is irrelvant in my opinion, because that's what Mm expect from us.You say "creative," I say "in a way in which it was most likely never imagined." Did it add to your LBP1 levels as a visual effect? Sure. Should Media Molecule take extra efforts to make it look precisely the same as it did in LBP1 just to make sure it looks the same for your specific level in LBP2? The answer to that question is no, because it functions the same. They wanted gas to look differently but behave the same in LBP2, because they had a different idea for the way gas appears in LBP2. That was my point. They've said this many times actually. It's not an exploit like the layer glitch, cow glitch, dm glitch, or any other possibly game breaking glitch out there. I've been very cautious NOT to use any major glitches or exploits for this reason alone. The fact is that it doesn't even closely resemble the original hazard and that's an issue for many of us. They would have been better off to re-name it "Puffy Killer Clouds" and created a new hazard that more closely resembles the old one and call that "Horrible Gas" so that we could just go in with the lethalizer tool and swap them out. I hardly think it's an impossible task. I just think that it wasn't an important thing for them to serioulsy look at and how it might affect the old levels that they have been implying would be backward compatible,and that they've mentioned as part of their campaign. Again, we go back to the word compatible. They never said that the levels would look visually identical. They said that the engine (and thus the way light and other such effects are rendered) has been improved, so that your levels from LBP1 would look "better." Your issue is more with the latter statement than the functionality of the gas itself would be compatible, which it is.Again, it just sucks because all those hours and hours of work have to be re-done again to achieve this with the holo-mat.But isn't the time and effort in improving your LBP1 levels equivalent to that you would spend if you were creating a level from scratch? Again, I've been building in LBP with the intentions of bringing in to tweak in LBP2 based solely on the fact that Mm is using the backward compatible angle to hype the game in their ad campaigns. If only "certain" parts are truly BC, then they shouldn't even bother using it as a selling feature for the game... it's sketchy and what I would consider to be false advertising. If so many LBP levels are visually ruined in the new game... it's simply not BC and shouldn't be fed to us as being so.I'm not sure where you got this impression, but I never heard from Media Molecule that "your levels will look exactly the same way they did in LBP1, but better!" They have, however, been championing the hell out their improved engine and the way light and shadow are rendered within it. Again, I suppose it depends on what you interpret the word "compatible" to mean. With the comparatively crude tools for lighting we were given in LBP1, isn't this a good thing? There certainly has to be a way not only to achieve different visual effects in LBP2, but most certainly even better visual effects, no? How is appearance not a compatability issue? It's half of the game.Because the word compatible applies to functionality, not appearances. My girlfriend and I are compatible, but we look entirely different. You see what I'm saying? Here's an example I'd equate it to - Sony comes out with the new PS4 and says that all games will be bacward compatible. Then on release, people start throwing their old games in only to find that all the night time levels in COD MW2 now have bright green neon grass, and it's so dark that the players can no longer see where they are going, let alone the enemies. All the explosions (our hazard equivalent) are now fluffy whisps of smoke that make us fee like we're being attacked by a gang of cute bunnies in the distant, rather than gun-toting villians. Are you going to tell me that wouldn't ruin the immersive factor of the gameplay? Do you honestly think that no one would be upset about their favourite game being ruined by the new PS4's engine claiming to be backward compatible when it's clearly not? I think they would. You know who'd be even more cheesed off? Infinity Ward... because all their hard work just went into the toilet, and no one wan't to play their game anymore. I'd say you're ignoring the other 1,000 Playstation titles that look and play just fine on the PS4. Look, I think your analogy is flawed for several reasons. One, it's a bit over the top. Two, you're trying to argue that an identical game engine on a new system would somehow render things so drastically different that it would make the game unplayable, which I can hardly believe is the case with the levels you are currently working on. And three, I simply can't believe that there isn't a single visual thing you've created in LBP1 for which you can't find a better (if not equivalent) solution in LBP2. As for your suggestins of building and tweaking... no need to tell me... that's why I created this thread in the first place (though it doesn't hurt to be brought up again for those who may have missed the entire point of this thread. I really do want people to see this thread and understand just how different things look, so that they stop what they are doing if they are creating with the intent to import and tweak as I was.Right, and I think this is why your argument is valid only for those players who seemed to receive the impression that they would simply cut, paste and hit the ground running once they got their hands on LBP2. It's simply not going to be that simple. Your level will be completely backwards compatible (i.e. it functions identically,) but it may appear entirely different due to the various changes in the engine, mostly in the lighting and effects department. And some scenes will render just fine and others will need serious tweaking. But those are the caveats one must heed if one is planning on designing entire levels in one engine only to transfer them over to one that is completely new.Building basic level pieces or objects is fine, and those will transfer over beautifully. (In fact, all my ships, robots, set pieces, and other solid objects are stunningly gorgeous compared to what they looked like in LBP... and that makes me tickled purple (sorry... pink is for gurlz). I simply want people to be warned to avoid using any hazards or lighting effects until they actually import their work into the final game... then add those elements there. There are several new lights as well, that will offer people more options. The basic spotlight in the original behaves NOTHING like it used to in LBP2.. the lighting really is vastly different.I think that's the takeaway here, that it's mostly the lighting and hazard effects that will need further scrutiny. But does it "break" your level? I think that's a bit of a stretch. I don't expect my levels to look identical in both games, and neither should the player. But they should function the same, nonetheless. And I don't think MM has been dishonest or misleading in this way, either. What they have done isflaunted their own engine's strengths, such as the way light is now rendered more dynamically and the wide variety of new visual effects you can create. I respect your opinion, I just think your expectations may have been too high going into the beta. From that perspective, I would probably be writing the same argument as yourself. | 2010-10-19 05:02:00 Author: schm0 Posts: 1239 |
| I have to agree about the gas hazzard, it looks just terrible; puffy killer cloud indeed! It was the #1 thing I noticed with my levels (played about 10.5 before I locked up playing a older glitch free level, will have try again after the update). Changes to the basic hazzards are certainly questionable if they want to strive for backwards compatibility. The electric glow has a radius of 10 feet...and the fire geesh...the bees in Fat Chipmunk have great gouts of flame shooting out of their behinds! Overall I was impressed that most of my levels were actually playable, glitches and all. Most would certainly be fixable if I cared enough to do so...changing the invis gas would be the most common correction needed. Some sections looked absolutely stunning with the new lighting but that was rare...most levels were quite hideous to behold and would need to be re-lit. LBP2 is looking promising but the BC is a bit of a joke...does ANYONE have a LBP1 level that looks the same or better in LBP2? I know it's a beta but I really doubt we'll get an option for LBP1 lighting/hazards. I really don't care about BC anyway...I just want to create new stuff. Also reaching the scoreboard the continue/retry comes up right away....why the heck did they change that...lots of levels do stuff at the end that now get chopped off... schm0 - No one thinks backwards compatiblty means functionally equal...that just won't cut it. Mm should have just made a clean break....they're not getting millions of LBP1 levels available to play in LBP2 because I doubt many people will invest the time to fix them, especially when there are shiny new toys to play wth...I sure won't! Jetison BC now I say...get the new stuff working and get LBP2 released on time! | 2010-10-19 05:18:00 Author: fullofwin  Posts: 1214 |
| Since we are talking visuals here and since my levels wouldn't achieve anything like the desired effect without the lighting and global settings required for mood and depth, without using the layer glitch, I feel completely qualified to say that publishing my LBP1 levels in LBP2 is a complete and utter disaster. They look ugly, the colours are all wrong, some of the lighting doesn't show up at all, the atmosphere has changed, there's no depth, the stickers used for shading don't show up and they look like they have been built in a cardboard box. Some of the characters in my latest level have practically disappeared it's so dark. That's just the tip of the iceberg really. Yes it's possible to tweak some things, I made a determined effort on Backwards Compatbility test night to put things right but to be quite honest after two hours of fiddling and tweaking and not getting anywhere near the effects I had in the original game I gave up. Who can blame me, I spent six months creating that level in the first place and it was clear to me the results, no matter how much tweaking, were never going to be the same. I have now deleted that level from the beta, I would not want to put my name to it. So, not to be too disheartened and battling my way past the bugs, I set about making a level in the beta as if I were working on the familiar ground LBP1 had provided. I was determined not to be intimidated by the new logic and popit layout. With a bit of practice it became second nature, it's a spectacular game but no matter how I try I cannot get the same effects with the lighting! They just simply do not function in the same way. Yes there are more tweakable options and when you open the tweak menu it looks impressive but as far as I can see the looking impressive is about the only thing in it's favour. Or am I being particularly dumb and inexperienced. Or perhaps whoever I was posessed by that allowed me to achieve the effects I required in the original has now left me and my creating days are in serious jeopardy. Fully aware that LBP2 is a different game and it's possibe to let it's predecessor become water under the bridge, it is heartbraking for me to let go of those levels that were so lovingly crafted. As far as I am concerned the two games are on opposite sides of the planet. Icey | 2010-10-19 10:25:00 Author: IceMaiden  Posts: 1057 |
| Well i say we don't need to care about that much, those levels are made for LBP1 and as in other backward compatibilities solutions there always be some issues. MM already did great job with BC, as some levels become uglier other are look more beautiful. Keep in mind MM can't keep all the tricks that overcome there expectation in there product to work the same by improving there engine, other wise they would need to stay in same place they been | 2010-10-19 13:14:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991 |
| They never suggested the backward compatibility is perfect now. It's a LONG way to go right now. And it might be one of the reasons the game actually has been pushed back. The best you should do is classify/clarify your problems in some sort of a list and report every problem independantly. After all, that's why we are here for. I personally reported every single backward compatibility issue I had with most my levels. | 2010-10-19 13:24:00 Author: RangerZero  Posts: 3901 |
| I don't think the lighting is so much a problem... the new hazards should have options to change how they look though. The new fire looks great, but sometimes can have flames that are too big. The electric glow problem I would have to see... it may be a problem in levels that use it as a hazard in a dark room (it would illuminate the room). Puffy gas clouds should be able to be tweaked to make them less puffy - in LBP1 it was very wispy and so looked completely different. It may not be entirely possible with the new fluid physics though. | 2010-10-19 13:26:00 Author: thor  Posts: 388 |
| Well i say we don't need to care about that much, those levels are made for LBP1 and as in other backward compatibilities solutions there always be some issues. MM already did great job with BC, as some levels become uglier other are look more beautiful. Keep in mind MM can't keep all the tricks that overcome there expectation in there product to work the same by improving there engine, other wise they would need to stay in same place they been Rubbish. Due to the simple fact that they don't have to render the LBP1 levels using the LBP2 engine. I still think LBP1 levels should use the LBP1 engine, unless the creator takes some action to allow them to be run as though they are LBP2 levels. The only real reason for forcing it upon us is the publicity factor of that quote "and those 2 million levels? Still there and looking better than ever", which sadly is a claim that wasn't very well thought through, and is never going to turn into fact. Of course, the effort required to implement a dual-engine system, in QA alone is more than likely prohibitory at this point in time, but if they had replaced the backwards compatibility effort with dual-engine effort, which arguably could have given more success, then I would have been a happier gadder. I'm still a happy gadder, but I would have been happier | 2010-10-19 13:40:00 Author: rtm223  Posts: 6497 |
| Some levels look better then ever for example, Sack the legendary part 6: http://beta.lbp.me/v/0v95 http://beta.lbp.me/img/ft/d1ec765efaaadbea3fbed53ca424ff87bc137480.jpg http://beta.lbp.me/img/ft/242480a4ffcda7f0a65fc8b4460ca53c5a059d0c.jpg Trine music stage: http://beta.lbp.me/v/2mj http://beta.lbp.me/img/ft/db07e9f3818f5b9335526b361fd05f28740c1565.jpg http://beta.lbp.me/img/ft/8b644f453b862301d956527bed76201cb43db194.jpg You right, classical light system would be best solution to the problem but how to implement in friendly way without need of republishing levels to LBP2 to have such effect like above and (would be the best) without interference of creators. Imo most impotently is to have those levels playable what ever they look in LBP2. | 2010-10-19 14:10:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991 |
| And those 2 million levels? Still there, a few of them looking better than ever, but many of them oversaturated and garish to your eyes! Doesn't have quite the same ring to it though, does it how to implement in friendly way without need of republishing levels to LBP2 to have such effect like above and (would be the best) without interference of creators. The interface is the simplest part of it: a checkbox, in both games, that selects which rendering engine LBP2 uses for the LBP1 levels. I don't even care which way it defaults, TBH with you. It should just be there. | 2010-10-19 14:32:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497 |
| The interface is the simplest part of it: a checkbox, in both games, that selects which rendering engine LBP2 uses for the LBP1 levels. I don't even care which way it defaults, TBH with you. It should just be there. That would sure be nice! Were there any good discussions about this on the beta forums? Mm says they are interested in BC issues...but a compatible rendering engine is the most important thing they need to have first...it's just not worth reporting the lost geometry, etc. if the level isn't going to look the same. | 2010-10-19 15:05:00 Author: fullofwin Posts: 1214 |
| The interface is the simplest part of it: a checkbox, in both games, that selects which rendering engine LBP2 uses for the LBP1 levels. I don't even care which way it defaults, TBH with you. It should just be there. I like that a bunch.. even if they simply selected LBP1 levels to the original rendering engine, it would be a step forward. Just not sure what levels they looked at when they made the claim "looking better than ever". I think I could learn to deal with the new engine when building from scratch. Though I would love if the first eighth of the lighting slider was scaled back a bit and the whole effect less contrasty. Seems like the first few notches are like "Orbiting the Sun", "Sahara Desert at Noon", "Horribly Blinding Light", and finally "Bright". Maybe it's that I have an HD tv, but wow.. I had to turn down the pod lighting as well as any new level I have created in just because I don't want to have to wear sunglasses in my living room. | 2010-10-19 15:09:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383 |
| Doesn't have quite the same ring to it though, does it The interface is the simplest part of it: a checkbox, in both games, that selects which rendering engine LBP2 uses for the LBP1 levels. I don't even care which way it defaults, TBH with you. It should just be there. I don't think it's that easy. You would have to cram an entire second rendering engire on the game disk. I suppose they could offer LBP1 rendering as DLC, but the check box you guys are suggesting is a signficant portion of the game. On the flip side, I'm sure glad I don't have the skills you guys do. I won't have any of these issues. In fact, I think the new gas effect will actually help Tale of the Storm Stones. | 2010-10-19 15:41:00 Author: Biv  Posts: 734 |
| DLC? more like update, since they can't make (and sell lol) DLC for LBP1 levels on LBP2 All depends how there current engine is build, since inclusion of 2nd rendering system might need a core changes of the code, if they can bring back old lighting style to current rending system it would be much easier. If they do anything like that it would be nice if they left anti-aliasing ;] | 2010-10-19 15:52:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991 |
| I don't think it's that easy. You would have to cram an entire second rendering engire on the game disk. I suppose they could offer LBP1 rendering as DLC, but the check box you guys are suggesting is a signficant portion of the game. Fitting on the disc shouldn't be a problem. If the entire LBP2 engine fits into a 2Gig download (it was 2 gig, right?), then I doubt their gonna blow the limits of a bluray. I don't know how big the engine code would be, but I very much doubt it would be a squeeze to fit it on the disc. There would be a big chunk of work to be done in terms of integration however, and certainly there is not time to add something as big as this before release.... But then, I have been saying this for four and a half months | 2010-10-19 16:02:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497 |
| On my initial viewing, it appeared as though the emitters weren't all firing... That might actually be fixed in 1.1. I had emitters not firing in my level, and since the update they work normally again. schm0 - No one thinks backwards compatiblty means functionally equal...that just won't cut it. Mm should have just made a clean break....they're not getting millions of LBP1 levels available to play in LBP2 because I doubt many people will invest the time to fix them, especially when there are shiny new toys to play wth...I sure won't! Jetison BC now I say...get the new stuff working and get LBP2 released on time! It's been said before, but remarks like these do remind me of the elite players' complaints about 2-square wide hazardous corridors breaking and such. There are millions of LBP1 levels that don't or barely use lighting, and those levels will look better. So just because some levels (granted, the prettier ones ) won't look good with the new engine, backwards compatibility should be dropped altogether!?This all reminds me of when every web browser had their own interpretation of HTML and how webdesigners tweaked and tricked to get web pages to look exactly the way they wanted. When the browsers (well, IE mostly) wanted to better conform to the standards, everyone complained that their tricks no longer worked. They should have realised that the standards of that time weren't up to the demands they had, and either accepted that their tricks were temporary or accept that their pages weren't going to be pixel-perfect. Translating this to LBP: If you set your bee's **** on fire, don't complain when you see flames. It's not that I don't want to see these levels look good in LBP2, but maybe it's technically just not an option. @IceMaiden: With a new engine, you'll probably have to rediscover a lot of things. It's like the new logic, only worse, because with logic at least the underlying mental models are the same. But since you figured it out the first time, I'm confident you can do it again, and much faster. Don't give up! | 2010-10-19 17:18:00 Author: Rogar  Posts: 2284 |
| Fitting on the disc shouldn't be a problem. If the entire LBP2 engine fits into a 2Gig download (it was 2 gig, right?), then I doubt their gonna blow the limits of a bluray. I don't know how big the engine code would be, but I very much doubt it would be a squeeze to fit it on the disc. There would be a big chunk of work to be done in terms of integration however, and certainly there is not time to add something as big as this before release.... But then, I have been saying this for four and a half months Yeah I wrote a big rant about how difficult it would be to do, then lost it, but just know that it would be a complete nightmare to implement and MM would be much better off just giving us lighting controls and controls to change the appearance of hazards. | 2010-10-19 18:19:00 Author: thor Posts: 388 |
| It's been said before, but remarks like these do remind me of the elite players' complaints about 2-square wide hazardous corridors breaking and such. There are millions of LBP1 levels that don't or barely use lighting, and those levels will look better. So just because some levels (granted, the prettier ones ) won't look good with the new engine, backwards compatibility should be dropped altogether!? Again...I don't care one little bit what happens to my LBP1 levels in LBP2...backwards compatibility isn't a huge deal for me...I wouldn't want to re-publish my old levels in LBP2 anyway. But since we're getting some form of BC in LBP2 and it will affect the quality of the final product I'm going to express my opinion on what Mm has implemented. Seriously, what decent level has no lighting? My newest level is lit solely with the global lighting control and about 8 purple spots...it still looks wonky. Oooo, Ramp sure is purdy in LBP2...give me a break. Mm is free to change any darn thing they please...just don't claim it's backwards compatible; that's not being elitist, that's being honest. Oh yeah, this covers the 2 square thingy as well...doesn't work in LBP2, not very LBP1 compatible is it...this breaks even the functionally equal definition. Mm is wasting lots of resources and pushing back the release date for something that isn't ever going to be perfect and lots of people will find justifiable things to complain about. That's why I don't want BC...I want the best LBP2 for making LBP2 levels, not some gimped version that attempts to support old behaviors. With the 1.0 beta I noticed my levels had the same crappy texture pop-in in exactly the same places. It's still not possible to create sub-sack person sized geometry without vertices being dropped when rendering, etc. These are the sorts of things I hope to see addressed in the final product...not BC issues. | 2010-10-19 18:34:00 Author: fullofwin Posts: 1214 |
| Thanks for bringing this up Rust! Because my LBP levels are backward compatible in name only! Visually they are a mess... and no amount of tweaking could make them right! Also, certain mechanics I used in regards to both storytelling and visualization... do not entirely work right. There is no way I want them anywhere near the LBP2 engine... thinking about pulling the plug on 'em... And at 160+ hrs for each of them... well, It saddens me really. Reminds me of why I didn't want a LBP2 in the first place... Now don't get me wrong, it's gonna be really cool! But I'm still saddend at the loss of some old friends. | 2010-10-25 22:53:00 Author: Gravel  Posts: 1308 |
| Well, I guess I just thought it had to be said really. I don't want anyone making the same mistake that I did... believeing the term "backwards compatible" meant acoss the board, and building in LBP with the hopes it would cleanly transfer over to LBP2. I've had more time with the new game now, and have to admit...it's pretty stunning! The new features and tools... and, well... everything but hazards and certain lights are really going to push this game into a whole new level (pardon the pun). I'm still having a heck of a time learning the new logic... and that will be the biggest learning curve for everyone with the new game. I'm less aggrivated by the new lighting and hazards than I was initially... but still not very happy about it. | 2010-10-26 00:16:00 Author: Rustbukkit Posts: 1737 |
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