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LittleBigPlanet 2 Engine Face-Off

Archive: 52 posts

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-lbp2-engine-face-off

Eurogamer breaks down the subtle (and not-so-subtle!) differences in the game engines that drive LBP1 and 2.

Discuss. 		2010-09-24 17:37:00

Author:
schm0
Posts: 1239

Stupid videos that don't display on my iPad; some one upload to youtube, please? (the head to head vid)

I read a bit into it earlier, very interesting.

I'll post more when I have the time to finish reading it.		2010-09-24 17:41:00

Author:
Fishrock123
Posts: 1578

Stupid videos that don't display on my iPad; some one upload to youtube, please? (the head to head vid)

I read a bit into it earlier, very interesting.

I'll post more when I have the time to finish reading it.

I think it's broken anyway. It 404'd on me.

The new fog broke a level I was working on. It involved the layer glitch and the thick fog covered up some detail in the back which is what I wanted. In LBP2, the fog's considerately thinner and so you can see back a lot further. Because of that, you can see things I didn't want you to see. >_<

MM! Make the fog thicker!		2010-09-24 17:45:00

Author:
trip090
Posts: 1562

Lights love em. Neat side by side comparison.2010-09-24 17:53:00

Author:
Morgana25
Posts: 5983

Thank you!
LBP2 looks definitely better!
i love the new lightings!!		2010-09-24 17:56:00

Author:
Kaboom
Posts: 172

not sure I'm in love with the raging inferno fire effect... think I prefer the mellow old burn... but gotta love those destruction effects! That liquid goo one is great!2010-09-24 17:56:00

Author:
Gravel
Posts: 1308

Something tells me I will be abusing the stuffing out of that Explosion destruction effect.

The lighting changes are very nice too. I always found lights to behave strangely in LBP1, and this makes them much better.

I wasn't a big fan of the old "fire" effect, so I don't mind the new look at all. The visuals make it seem much hotter. The gas looks completely different now, but the old look was pretty bad.

Great stuff.		2010-09-24 18:14:00

Author:
Gilgamesh
Posts: 2536

Very good improvements, I was hugely disappointed when LBP didn't have the ambient occlusion and DOF effects as seen in the trailers, but now I guess they managed to get it running fast enough.

I'm not a fan of the motion blur in general in LBP anyway, or maybe just at all. It tends to look really low res and yucky.		2010-09-24 18:36:00

Author:
Foofles
Posts: 2278

Love those destruction effects!

Also, I like the new gas, it looks like it could actually be used for scenery, insted of a way of killing SackPeople should thay stray into the wrong area (though I'd still be great for that too!).		2010-09-24 18:45:00

Author:
kirbyman62
Posts: 1893

the new gass looks like gass its brilliant i also like the new fire effects although i hope more flame colours are available(a green flame would be great)

all we need now is a better electric effect also with a selection of colours		2010-09-24 21:22:00

Author:
Unknown User

wow the lighting looking incredible in LBP2 way better even thing looks cleaner and polish I cant wait 2010-09-24 21:30:00

Author:
Arnald23
Posts: 1843

Overall I'm impressed. I always knew the lighting in LBP was pretty unrealistic and didn't behave anything like real light, and the improvements look great. My biggest concern is the gas effects. I've used the current gas as a special effect on some of my machines and it works beautifully! This new change is going to completely ruin all those effects, and I won't be able to work with the new stuff to re-create the same effect at all. I don't see why Mm shouldn't just give us this new gas as a separate option and call it killer fog or something different. Oh well, I guess I'll have to find some other work-around. Still... I'm pretty imporessed with these improvements all around.2010-09-24 23:33:00

Author:
Rustbukkit
Posts: 1737

I'm not sure that I 100% like the look of the gas, but it is a huuuuge improvement over the original that's for sure. I like the look of the fire, but the flames are huge. Perhaps if we (or MM) could tone down the flame height it would be a little more reasonable or less of a visual distraction when it doesn't need to be or whatever I'm trying to say. 2010-09-25 00:43:00

Author:
Jgr9
Posts: 56

I posted a ton of comparison pics on neogaf of The Steampunk Samurai from LBP1 to LBP2 if you guys wanna check it out.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23518208&postcount=51		2010-09-25 00:56:00

Author:
gevurah22
Posts: 1476

WOW what a big Change
CAN'T WAIT!!!!!!!		2010-09-25 01:08:00

Author:
YEAH_NAH
Posts: 775

Well, they're keeping LBP1 servers up, aren't they? It would seem to me that if you want to leave your LBP1 levels "LBP1-ready," you can. There are probably materials you can use in LBP2 to duplicate your old intent, if you were using horrible gas as an obscurant.2010-09-25 01:37:00

Author:
coyote_blue
Posts: 422

I posted a ton of comparison pics on neogaf of The Steampunk Samurai from LBP1 to LBP2 if you guys wanna check it out.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23518208&postcount=51

Freak. Now I get why it's delayed.

Too radical IMO, if it sees a level as being a LBP1 level, why doesn't it use LBP1 graphics+physics..? (until you import it to LBP2, I'm just talking about levels published form LBP1.)		2010-09-25 01:49:00

Author:
Fishrock123
Posts: 1578

I find the subtle shadow effects a nice touch.2010-09-25 02:00:00

Author:
Maxi
Posts: 1176

Those are some pretty huge changes! I like it!2010-09-25 02:35:00

Author:
Night Angel
Posts: 1214

I sorta liked the swirly effect of old gas, but didn't like the annoying buzzing sound and it's cheapy 'thinness'.

The new gas is incredibly fluffy and thick tho. I can see using it as clouds. There should be a tweak on them to control how thick and foggy they are. Like pitch black smoke, etc.		2010-09-25 02:41:00

Author:
Cheezy WEAPON
Posts: 283

I posted a ton of comparison pics on neogaf of The Steampunk Samurai from LBP1 to LBP2 if you guys wanna check it out.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23518208&postcount=51

LOL Those lamps are so bright now that they aren't even red/pink anymore. 		2010-09-25 03:56:00

Author:
Jgr9
Posts: 56

Well, they're keeping LBP1 servers up, aren't they? It would seem to me that if you want to leave your LBP1 levels "LBP1-ready," you can. There are probably materials you can use in LBP2 to duplicate your old intent, if you were using horrible gas as an obscurant.

It's not a huge deal for me where effects are concerned, but it's a big deal for levels breaking when anyone loads an LBP level in LBP2. Yeah, I'd say that's a big problem. There is definitely no way that I can recreate my effects by any other means with the new gas, and it's just unfortunate because I've been building levels in the current game to transfer and tweak in LBP2. Mm really should have taken this mind-set into consideration, especially since they've been selling us the whole backwards compatible angle. Backwards compatible should mean that everything in the old game will work and look the same or better... not different altogether. Again, it's not the end of the world, but it's a pretty big slip up in my opinion. That's why I think they should have kept the old gas and added this new one as a new hazard completely.


I posted a ton of comparison pics on neogaf of The Steampunk Samurai from LBP1 to LBP2 if you guys wanna check it out.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23518208&postcount=51

Well I have to admit... I'm not at all impressed with how big the changes look now that I've seen the differences in your level. They are a completely different atmosphere visually. I thought the gas would be my only issue, but now that I see the electricity hazard applied and how different it looks... YIKES!! That's going to be another major issue on my upcoming series! This does not bode well for Rustbukkit visuals. 		2010-09-25 11:04:00

Author:
Rustbukkit
Posts: 1737

A more in-depth look (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-littlebigplanet2-article)2010-09-25 11:09:00

Author:
Syroc
Posts: 3193

I don't see why Mm shouldn't just give us this new gas as a separate option and call it killer fog or something different.It's because that would require running two separate effect engines instead of one. All the smoke and fog special effects run in the same engine, and this engine is running all the time, it appears, swirling the particle space even when there are no particles. Whenever a 'particle' is drawn, be it from a fog block or a points bubble, it's added to this swirling space. In LBP1 the algorithm was this soft fluid dnamic, like ink on water, which meant swirling fog and wispy smoke. When you collect a bubble, it pops into a coloured swirl. LBP2 replaces this with the much more sophisticated volumetric effect that enables shadowing, receiving shadows, the density and the 3 dimensional movements and collision detection of the splat effect, but that means every effect that worked in that particle engine has been effected. You'll see picking up point bubbles has also had a change of effect with the clouds being much denser and more contained.

There's no way to add the old effect without running the whole old-style engine on top of everything LBP2 is doing, which will just make it keel over. There may perhaps have been a possibility of being able to swap between old and new style engines in a level, but that's quite a lot of development faf and would affect the consistent style of LBP2.

All in all, it is an annoying change I know, but I consider it a valuable improvement. Creators will have to adapt, and old levels won't work as well (some are even plain broken!), but future LBP2 creations will be better overall. And the cost of finding new solutions is vastly outweighed by the savings of the new creation tools!		2010-09-25 14:08:00

Author:
Shifty Geezer
Posts: 131

It's not a huge deal for me where effects are concerned, but it's a big deal for levels breaking when anyone loads an LBP level in LBP2. Yeah, I'd say that's a big problem. There is definitely no way that I can recreate my effects by any other means with the new gas, and it's just unfortunate because I've been building levels in the current game to transfer and tweak in LBP2. Mm really should have taken this mind-set into consideration, especially since they've been selling us the whole backwards compatible angle. Backwards compatible should mean that everything in the old game will work and look the same or better... not different altogether. Again, it's not the end of the world, but it's a pretty big slip up in my opinion. That's why I think they should have kept the old gas and added this new one as a new hazard completely.

Good point. If they said "backwards compatible", they need to live up to that, or give us an incompatibility list and an apology.

A compatibility list would be a great fig leaf to the community. "We know you're bulding set pieces for LBP2 in LBP1. Here's what to expect when you import stuff. See you in January." They said they were looking for ways to give us a taste...perhaps a demo pack? A little creator-moon crater where you could import and preview LBP1 stuff with the new modeling engine, but no new features added?		2010-09-25 14:44:00

Author:
coyote_blue
Posts: 422

The improved fog effects are fantastic!2010-09-25 16:01:00

Author:
X-FROGBOY-X
Posts: 1800

They said they were looking for ways to give us a taste...perhaps a demo pack?

A demo, or what I think is more probable (because I WANTZ IT!!!), an Open Beta. Preferrably set to the previous release date... the irony

When I watched the vid about luos_desruc's Caves of the Beh'Tas, I thought the lethal gas was just a fog effect 		2010-09-25 18:17:00

Author:
Unknown User

Here's today's follow-up article by Digital Foundry with a more in-depth analysis of the rendering engine:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-littlebigplanet2-article?page=1		2010-09-25 18:24:00

Author:
Unknown User

Here's today's follow-up article by Digital Foundry with a more in-depth analysis of the rendering engine:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-littlebigplanet2-article?page=1

See syroc's link...


A more in-depth look (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-littlebigplanet2-article)

Think, check, post.		2010-09-25 18:41:00

Author:
Unknown User

O.o First with the compared pictures I see more of the difference... 2010-09-25 19:31:00

Author:
moonwire
Posts: 1627

I think all of the engine changes are for the better. Even that blur effect that was "simplified" looked better in LBP2, in my opinion. I'm very happy with everything shown. Especially donkey's pics. They show just how much sharper the sequel is... 2010-09-25 19:34:00

Author:
piggabling
Posts: 2979

Awesome, but i HATE HATE HATE the new motion blur. Really ugly looking 2010-09-25 19:45:00

Author:
Unknown User

It's because that would require running two separate effect engines instead of one. All the smoke and fog special effects run in the same ................... be better overall. And the cost of finding new solutions is vastly outweighed by the savings of the new creation tools!

Thanks for that bit of info. I understand that the whole engine is changed, but I don't see why they couldn't still go in and tweak effects to look and act any way they want or to resemble the original effects. I guess I keep thinking in terms of my industry where you just sit down and create or recreate the desired effect until it's right. Still, I think it would have been wise (and perhaps even considerate) of them to keep the effects almost the same knowing full well that old levels will be played in the new game, and that many of us have been creating with the new game in mind and expecting things to look better... not different. Surely there must be a way of creating a new effect to resemble the old one that we could just go in and swap out with the lethalizer tool? I know it's a lot of work, but so is going in and changing or completely re-vamping the large quantity of broken levels and messed up effects that have already been published. Oh wellz... I will just have to cope with the changes like everyone else, even though I still think it's a pretty big slip up considering the whole "backwards compatible" angle they've been hyping.

Who knows though... this entire discussion could all be for not if this is something they have realized is a bigger problem than they initially anticipated and are scrambling to find a fix. Yeah... let's hope for that.


Good point. If they said "backwards compatible", they need to live up to that, or give us an incompatibility list and an apology.

A compatibility list would be a great fig leaf to the community. "We know you're bulding set pieces for LBP2 in LBP1. Here's what to expect when you import stuff. See you in January." They said they were looking for ways to give us a taste...perhaps a demo pack? A little creator-moon crater where you could import and preview LBP1 stuff with the new modeling engine, but no new features added?

A compatibility list would have been very helpful indeed! It's not like this is something they've just recently realized about the render engine and just how different it's going to look and affect previous levels (or break them altogether). I love your idea of a demo/creator pack to give us time to go in and figure out any necessary changes we need to make . That would be very helpful, and a great fig leaf indeed! 		2010-09-25 19:51:00

Author:
Rustbukkit
Posts: 1737

I think the best addition to LBP2 is MSAA. Smooth graphics are happy graphics 2010-09-26 02:17:00

Author:
alexbull_uk
Posts: 1287

Hmmm...very interesting to see the differences! Everything looks so much better in LBP2. Of course, it wont look the same on my tv, as it isn't HD. 2010-09-26 02:53:00

Author:
eagerneph
Posts: 1536

i was reading the article and this popped up: "the draw distance of the clouds is reduced compared to LittleBigPlanet " what the hell is the draw distance of the clouds?! 2010-09-26 07:24:00

Author:
Screeno
Posts: 153

i was reading the article and this popped up: "the draw distance of the clouds is reduced compared to LittleBigPlanet " what the hell is the draw distance of the clouds?!

When you zoom out too far with the camera. The furthest things just disappear.		2010-09-26 07:50:00

Author:
Cheezy WEAPON
Posts: 283

Distance fog then, not clouds.2010-09-26 10:24:00

Author:
estevangz
Posts: 57

When you zoom out too far with the camera. The furthest things just disappear.Not just that, but the distance from the edge of the screen when just outside. If you have a lift or chain going up, and a toxic cloud hazard at the top so the player has to release the lift before they hit it, the old effect would draw early and give the player plenty of warning, whereas the new effect is rendered later, so you can actually be in the toxic cloud before it's visible - death for no apparent reason. This may be contingent on a wider zoom, as the DF video shows the puffy clouds at the top of the stairs appearing at about the same time as the LBP1 fog, and that camera is different to the one where I experienced the fog rendering fault.2010-09-26 10:42:00

Author:
Shifty Geezer
Posts: 131

Oh geez, that's even worse. I thought it was things Sackboy couldn't get to in time.2010-09-26 13:43:00

Author:
Cheezy WEAPON
Posts: 283

Okay forgive me for being a little, err, off topic, but I have no idea what "NA" means. Regarding the Beta... Answers?2010-09-27 20:52:00

Author:
DaSackBoy
Posts: 606

Okay forgive me for being a little, err, off topic, but I have no idea what "NA" means. Regarding the Beta... Answers?

North America.

Thank you, and goodbye.		2010-09-27 21:01:00

Author:
TNSv
Posts: 302

Dang, I thought it was Not America. That explains a lot.2010-09-29 07:49:00

Author:
Snappyguy
Posts: 710

Dang, I thought it was Not America. That explains a lot.

I really hope you are joking... Do you know what Canada is? Did you know that Canada is apart of NA?		2010-09-29 10:08:00

Author:
xSLEVENx
Posts: 12

*cough* Let's get this back on topic, hm? 2010-09-29 16:03:00

Author:
schm0
Posts: 1239

Any word on the screen tearing in LBP2 ? When I play LBP1 I always get this nasty screen tearing.2010-09-29 16:13:00

Author:
Foofles
Posts: 2278

Any word on the screen tearing in LBP2 ? When I play LBP1 I always get this nasty screen tearing.


That said, it's still clear from the beta that a fair amount of optimisation needs to be done. If the rendering is consistently over budget you can get some pretty off-putting screen-tearing, and there are couple of areas in Media Molecule's own levels where this is a commonplace occurrence

A more in-depth look (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-littlebigplanet2-article)

Personally I haven't noticed a lot of tearing, but then again I'm not too bothered by it anyway.		2010-09-29 16:21:00

Author:
Syroc
Posts: 3193

the screen tearing only happend when theres was loads of stuff on screen.
Question: when taking pics with the camera, does smoke and gas appear in it? cos they dissapear in the first game, which is annoying.		2010-09-29 16:23:00

Author:
artise
Posts: 353

The screen tearing hurts my eyes really badly So I hope it's minimized in the final build.

From what I hear, gas and lights all show up properly in screengrabs and the resolution is a little higher.		2010-09-29 16:29:00

Author:
Foofles
Posts: 2278

i dont mind the screen tear that much.
good to know 		2010-09-29 16:56:00

Author:
artise
Posts: 353

Its just my opinion as everyone for the most part seems ok with it but...
I think the new lighting looks horrible, there are some good points about it but
stuff i saw just seem like a lot of the time Lights being mostly just stronger like
the life-gate light seem way more strong im thinking thats something we can fix that by editing
but i don't know, Im sure i'll be able to live with whatever happens~ *mew		2010-09-29 22:29:00

Author:
Lord-Dreamerz
Posts: 4261

the screen tearing only happend when theres was loads of stuff on screen.The full comparison mentions this, and it's not obviously 'more stuff'. - "What is curious is that in the space stage of the beta, in a scene of arcade machines playable by the player or Sackbots, performance drops pretty radically, yet the view is mostly zoomed in and not showing much content. "
That area is not complex in what it's drawing. It's zoomed in close with little geometry on screen. I wondered if there tearing was an issue with overlayed alpha blending, as experiementing, it looks like the arcade graphics are achieved with overlapping hologram and glowing glass materials. But recreating that in the editor didn't create the tearing. Nor did some game logic on every block, nor background physics. So I can't see what exactly in that level is causing the rendering issues.

Question: when taking pics with the camera, does smoke and gas appear in it? cos they dissapear in the first game, which is annoying.Just tried it for you. All particle effects are captured.


Its just my opinion as everyone for the most part seems ok with it but...
I think the new lighting looks horrible, there are some good points about it but
stuff i saw just seem like a lot of the time Lights being mostly just stronger like
the life-gate light seem way more strong im thinking thats something we can fix that by editing
but i don't know, Im sure i'll be able to live with whatever happens~ *mew
MM have added a lot of higher intensity lights, probably because they can! There's lots more light in general, and I think that's what you're reacting against. TBH I find the new levels more cluttered than the original; a little too many effects and such. The actual lighting itself is gorgeous though. Take the simplest levels of a few blocks, and they look danged realistic. Bottle corks in cardboard castles look very convincing, I'd even go as far to say good enough for TV broadcasts should anyone make a series of shorts. Likewise dark, moody-lighting levels look so much better with the new fog and volumetric lights. Simple levels are going to look so much better, though I'm sure many levels will go overboard with the lights and make something pretty hard to look at!		2010-09-29 23:37:00

Author:
Shifty Geezer
Posts: 131


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