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9/11 memorial

Archive: 78 posts

im here to say if you live in USA and remember seeing 9/11 here you can talk about what you felt.

i would like to also say i feel bad on how all those people died so if you are in New York City drop by ground zero and

pay your respects for the men women and children who lost their life in the crash and in the building.		2010-09-11 12:19:00

Author:
Lgjoka2002
Posts: 538

I remember where I was when it happened, I was pestering my Mum to go to the park, I was 9 at the time so I didn't really take much notice.

Not really bothered about the plans to build a Muslim Centre at ground zero, to each their own.

Definitely feel for all those families who lost someone.		2010-09-11 12:52:00

Author:
Boomy
Posts: 3701

I was only four so yeah....

I just remember thinking it was the Twin Towers in our town.

=/		2010-09-11 13:15:00

Author:
Jaslow
Posts: 775

I remember sitting in class when it happened, I couldn't really understand it at the time : God bless the families who have lost family members at 9/112010-09-11 13:43:00

Author:
Kn0cked-0ut
Posts: 562

I was unemployed at the time, so was already planted in front of the television. I watched the entire thing unfold. I am thankful that no one shows the images of people jumping anymore. They were live images the day of, and it was one of the most awful things I've ever watched. Still makes me sick to think about it.

I agree about the mosque in NYC. I think the argument that it represents a lack of respect for the incident and the lives lost there represents a profound ignorance in the American populace. The Muslim religion teaches and practices peace, harmony, and a devout faith in God (Allah). That there are extremists who would commit acts in the name of their religion is common to most, if not all, religions. We must not allow these misguided zealots to define the religions themselves.

*steps off soapbox*
(Sorry if this ends up dragging this into a theological or political tangent. I don't mean to upset anyone with my opinions)		2010-09-11 15:48:00

Author:
v0rtex
Posts: 1878

im British so i cant say i was there but i can kind of remember seeing it on the news i was only 7 or 8 so didnt pay much attention but ive seen programs about it and now im older i can realise how much of a disaster it was . i respect and always will to the men and women who jumped from the building they were SO brave to do that in such fear .2010-09-11 16:02:00

Author:
howMUCHforBOUNTY
Posts: 623

I was also too young to care at the time, but I remember seeing my mother and my father both sad and agitated.
I'd rather not think about what the families who lost their loved ones that day have been feeling since then :/		2010-09-11 16:55:00

Author:
Oddmania
Posts: 1305

We had to watch the entire 9/11 tapes in Social Studies a few days ago, and some people actually started crying.

While it was certainly a horrible day in history, the fact that people choose to blame it on an entire religion is just... stupid.		2010-09-11 16:58:00

Author:
Arkei
Posts: 1432

Personally I think 9-11 is starting to get a liiiiiiiittle old. In my perspective: 'We were bombed, oh well, sucks.' that's all.

Edit: since I now realized that there will be many emotional wrecks/angry people reading this thread I would like to say, I respect those who lost a family member/friend/whatever at that time. I lost 2 friends but I sorta just got over it, how? Maybe it's because I'm too ****ed up to care about things anymore, would sadistic be a proper word to use?		2010-09-11 19:02:00

Author:
Unknown User

Personally I think 9-11 is starting to get a liiiiiiiittle old. In my perspective: 'We were bombed, oh well, sucks.' that's all.

That's quite disrespectful, people died that day. Some people lost their family members!


EDIT: oh god you edited your post...		2010-09-11 19:15:00

Author:
Alec
Posts: 3871

Folks, every year we have dozens of holidays dedicated to happiness and joy but today we must feel sorrow for those who died 9 years ago from today, and even if you are like athiest or something you should at least say a prayer for the victims of the tragedy on 9/11.Many good people were lost that day trying to protect the lives of the people in those towers, and for those who were saved and for those who survived say something for them too for the greif on that day ruined their lives forever. if for some reason you dont know what 9/11 is, they have a special on the History every year dedicated to the lives lost that day, you cant miss it its on all day.Bless you and have a nice day2010-09-11 19:16:00

Author:
Charlemagne
Posts: 513

Haha I don't know if that last part was a, oops mah bad or a oh lawd here comes more hate?

Like I said, I respect those people but at the same way, it's what I myself feel k? So since this is a discussion everyone might as well chip in their views eh? Also at the 'people died that day' not to sound rude but, uh, so? People die EVERY day if you didn't know, the only difference this time is that it happened on our turf, other than that, no one else commemorates (sp?) any other deaths. Indeed.		2010-09-11 19:18:00

Author:
Unknown User

I was like 7 years old when that happened.
I still have the newspaper from that day....
did you hear about the temple that people want to put there?.......		2010-09-11 19:19:00

Author:
theonlybub
Posts: 690

I think its kinda effed up that they would do **** like that just to get 42 virgins. i hope they burn in hell2010-09-11 19:19:00

Author:
Charlemagne
Posts: 513

yes i heard
thath would be so disrespect full

Respect for the poeple who died and theire relatives		2010-09-11 19:22:00

Author:
Unknown User

I know, building a mosque on ground zero is like building a U.S embassy in Hiroshima2010-09-11 19:22:00

Author:
Charlemagne
Posts: 513

I think its kinda effed up that they would do **** like that just to get 42 virgins. i hope they burn in hell

http://forum.i3d.net/attachments/offtopic-english/943182047d1249721477-happy-birthday-frank-facepalm.jpg

d00d just get out of here, the guys did it for respect and fear, not virgins k? God, seriously, some people these days. /facepalm		2010-09-11 19:25:00

Author:
Unknown User

Haha I don't know if that last part was a, oops mah bad or a oh lawd here comes more hate?

Like I said, I respect those people but at the same way, it's what I myself feel k? So since this is a discussion everyone might as well chip in their views eh? Also at the 'people died that day' not to sound rude but, uh, so? People die EVERY day if you didn't know, the only difference this time is that it happened on our turf, other than that, no one else commemorates (sp?) any other deaths. Indeed.

Yeah, people die every day, but not on this scale. The "people die everyday" argument is really stupid. Saying "no one else commemorates any other deaths" makes no sense at all. Why wouldn't we commemorate the deaths of people in our country? The attacks weren't on just those people but on America as a whole. They didn't care who they killed that day as long as they were American.

Personally, I'd like them to build a statue of satan stomping on the twin towers as a monument to free speech.


http://forum.i3d.net/attachments/offtopic-english/943182047d1249721477-happy-birthday-frank-facepalm.jpg

d00d just get out of here, the guys did it for respect and fear, not virgins k? God, seriously, some people these days. /facepalm

...and for virgins. 		2010-09-11 19:31:00

Author:
qrtda235566
Posts: 3664

I was only three or four when it happened.

I can't remember what I felt. I don't think anything until about five years ago.		2010-09-11 19:33:00

Author:
Jaslow
Posts: 775

First off:
https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=35484-9-11-memorial

You even posted ther...

Secondly:
Wow, didn't think we had those kinds of people in LBPC...
I'll let Vortex explain it better.


I agree about the mosque in NYC. I think the argument that it represents a lack of respect for the incident and the lives lost there represents a profound ignorance in the American populace. The Muslim religion teaches and practices peace, harmony, and a devout faith in God (Allah). That there are extremists who would commit acts in the name of their religion is common to most, if not all, religions. We must not allow these misguided zealots to define the religions themselves.		2010-09-11 19:45:00

Author:
Silverleon
Posts: 6707

What would Satan look like? 2010-09-11 19:48:00

Author:
Unknown User

Yes this day.... the reason why i get so much racism crap at school :o
Anyway with the whole Mosque thing... am i the only one in the world that thinks that it is ok to build it there?
9/11 was not because of Muslims, it was Al Qaeda, Al Qaeda is deemed to be a Muslim group.... they think they are but i believe they have no religion, no god looks upon them as good people....		2010-09-11 19:54:00

Author:
Snrm
Posts: 6419

Building a mosque on Ground Zero (it's not actually, it's a few blocks away afaik) is not (should not) be a problem. It's only a problem if people make it one, and doing so would lower the people who do it to the level of the people causing the problems in the first place.

I don't understand why people remember this, in a way. It's terrible, don't get me wrong, however by remembering the events more attention is brought to those who commit this kind of act, not just at 9/11 but in the London bombings and everywhere else. And when the events are brought up, and people remember what happened, they think about who did it. And it gives the people who did it exactly what they want. Attention.		2010-09-11 19:57:00

Author:
Unknown User

Originally Posted by LittleBigEnder
I think its kinda effed up that they would do **** like that just to get 42 virgins. i hope they burn in hell

1. Thats extremely ignorant.
2. Its 72, not 42		2010-09-11 19:58:00

Author:
Maxi
Posts: 1176

I only remember it because of all of whom died trying to save innocent people, but the one thing I do remember from 9/11 is the plane that almost destroyed the Pentegon. I loved hearing the story about the people on board. It was incredible.

BTW Just because Obama says something, doesn't mean it is true....-_-
He lies all the time, what makes you thing that the ones that crashed into the towers weren't muslum?
He is the only one whom has said that, and as always, many are believing him...lol		2010-09-11 20:08:00

Author:
theonlybub
Posts: 690

What would Satan look like?
Kinda like the one from Tenacious D.

1. Thats extremely ignorant.
2. Its 72, not 42

Eh, I don't really see anything ignorant about that. Besides getting the number wrong. If I was christian I would probably hope they went to hell. If they didn't I would say god was pretty incompetent.		2010-09-11 20:18:00

Author:
qrtda235566
Posts: 3664

I saw the twin towers fall down, with my own eyes. I breathed in the fumes that clouded the sky when they fell to the Earth in a fiery heap. I had visited the WTC about a week prior and bought some perfumes and whatnot from the tourist shop.

And you know what? It doesn't get me down. It doesn't fill me with rage. You know what does? People... people that disrespect the event and the people that lost their lives from it.

A) The conspiracy theorists. S T F U.

B) Politicians - Stop tossing it around to barter your position.

C) This mosque BS. Classic case of journalism run amok. I never even heard of it until I started seeing people argue about it on facebook and myspace. And I LIVE here, I pass by ground zero almost everyday. I do not caaaaaaaare.

In NYC we have muslim / islamic / ___ istani / etc. stuff every 5 feet. For real. I guarantee there's probably a dozen or two muslim looking types selling falafel, hot dogs, shish kebob, etc. on the corner of where the WTC used to be right this second. It's not even a mosque... it's just a place for parents to dump their kids, more or less. Whatever.		2010-09-11 20:27:00

Author:
Foofles
Posts: 2278

It's hard for me to believe that we Americans are so quick to turn our backs on one of our OWN principals. Denying the Sufis the right to build a Mosque is totally messed up. If you've ever actually gone to a gathering of Sufi's you'd have a clue of what I'm talking about. Also, keep in mind that Sufi is just one out of many flavors of Islamic religion.

If you can build a church on a site, you can build a synagogue on a site, if you can build a Hindu temple on a site, then you should be able to build a mosque on the site. It's all part of our inalienable right to practice our religion (what ever it may be) freely.

That being said, My prayers go out today for the families and friends of those who were hurt in the 911 attacks.
I'd also like to mark the courage and Agape demonstrated by the citizens and civil servants in the aftermath. It was one of our most tragic, yet, finest hours as U.S. citizens!		2010-09-11 20:38:00

Author:
swanbrown
Posts: 898

The only reason to remember 9/11 is to hate the government more.

Reagon is the one who TRAINED them, and gave them BILLIONS of dollars.
On 9/10 2001, the army told a special ops group to get ready.
9/11 the CIA says they have no clue who attacked us.
A few hours later they make up names to give to the public. None of them are real names of the terrorists.
9/12 it gets out that the names are fake.
Osama Bin Laden is blamed for the attack.
The U.S proceeds to go after Sadam Husein.
NOT Osama.

Hmm..		2010-09-11 20:39:00

Author:
Bremnen
Posts: 1800

I think its kinda effed up that they would do **** like that just to get 42 virgins. i hope they burn in hell

....


What would Satan look like?

Me.		2010-09-11 20:46:00

Author:
Bremnen
Posts: 1800

The only reason to remember 9/11 is to hate the government more.

Meh. People complain about the government all the time, but really, if I look around, things aren't too bad. Plus, this isn't the right thread to be talking about this in.

I remember 9/11, I was only four but I remember seeing it on the news. :/ I did a talk in English a while ago on it, and only then did I discover how bad it really was. I can't imagine how horrible it must have been for the people who died and their families.		2010-09-11 20:47:00

Author:
resistance1
Posts: 812

I was in the army when it happened. We were outside playing basketball and a guy sticks his head out the window and yells "Hey! A plane crashed into the world trade center". We watched the live coverage as the second plane hit.2010-09-11 20:50:00

Author:
BasketSnake
Posts: 2391

Meh. People complain about the government all the time, but really, if I look around, things aren't too bad.


Do you have eyes?		2010-09-11 21:01:00

Author:
Bremnen
Posts: 1800

Do you have eyes?

Yeah. I'd prefer not to argue on a thread like this though. 		2010-09-11 21:04:00

Author:
resistance1
Posts: 812

I only remember it because of all of whom died trying to save innocent people, but the one thing I do remember from 9/11 is the plane that almost destroyed the Pentegon. I loved hearing the story about the people on board. It was incredible.

BTW Just because Obama says something, doesn't mean it is true....-_-
He lies all the time, what makes you thing that the ones that crashed into the towers weren't muslum?
He is the only one whom has said that, and as always, many are believing him...lol

He may lie all the time, but being the President people will be inclined to believe him. And unless you know more than him, how can you know if he is lying all the time? He may have access to information you don't. Ever heard the word 'confidential'?

Wait, what does he even have to do with 9/11? HE WASN'T EVEN PRESIDENT THEN.

And if you are going to start arguing about religion, and who is this, who isn't that etc. at least have the courtesy to spell it correctly.


And you know what? It doesn't get me down. It doesn't fill me with rage. You know what does? People... people that disrespect the event and the people that lost their lives from it.

I hope that wasn't aimed at me, if it was you misinterpret what i mean. I don't disrespect the incident, nor the people/families who lost their lives/lost a family member. It is a terrible thing to happen, and incomprehensible to people who didn't witness it or lose someone in it as to just how bad it really was. What i meant was that while it is correct to remember it, especially for the families of people affected, having headlines all over the place about it gives whoever it was who did it more publicity (technically speaking if we don't actually know who it was, it doesn't directly bring publicity to them, but it does remind people just what can happen, so people start thinking about it again, so indirectly they do get attention, which is their aim.)

Just checking you didn't misunderstand me.		2010-09-11 21:07:00

Author:
Unknown User

What temple?2010-09-11 21:10:00

Author:
Unknown User

While I have some sadness at the loss of life that occurred that day, it is far out shined by how Proud I am of NYPD NYFD, and all the other good sams of New York who ran around like super-heroes to try and help out their fellow people! I stayed home from work that day and watched the coverage as clip after clip of common every day Joes ran INTO the smoke and debris to give aid.

One of my Favorites is a clip from a doctor who happened to have a cam corder with him when it happened. it showed the devastation as he ran tward the dust cloud and yelling out "are you okay?" to anyone he overtook. He had just finished saying, "I'm going to see if I can help some people who are hurt, because I'm not one of them." , When the second tower got hit. As the debris cloud rushed tward the camera you could hear him mumbling "hope I don't die, hope I don't die, hope I don't die!"

So, Today, I celebrate the Heroism of all those who chose to run the wrong way!		2010-09-11 21:15:00

Author:
swanbrown
Posts: 898

Yeah. I'd prefer not to argue on a thread like this though.

Why? There are people spouting religous bs and your scared to offend someone?


He may lie all the time, but being the President people will be inclined to believe him. And unless you know more than him, how can you know if he is lying all the time? He may have access to information you don't. Ever heard the word 'confidential'?


Ever heard of Paul Ekman?
There are many ways to tell if someone is lying.
Most people who study facial expressions have a game, know what its called?
"See how many times the politician lies"

2010-09-11 21:16:00

Author:
Bremnen
Posts: 1800

BTW Just because Obama says something, doesn't mean it is true....-_-
He lies all the time, what makes you thing that the ones that crashed into the towers weren't muslum?
He is the only one whom has said that, and as always, many are believing him...lol
Wait Obama said that?? Darn it!! i forgot to to get a copyright claim for my thought!!!!
Anyway i didn't know obama said that when i said it. But it is TRUE

But who said we should single out the 2nd biggest religion in the world because of a terrorist group.
Oh NO wait in 10 years there is going to be a terrorist group in 10 years that is Christian so we are going to have to single the whole religion out too!!!! -.-		2010-09-11 21:24:00

Author:
Snrm
Posts: 6419

We we celebrating my sister's 6th birthday by going to Applebee's. Usually it's a really loud and fun environment, but all the eyes in the resteraunt were fixed on the television screens. It was dead silent, and nobody in the entire building was even thinking about touching their food.

Although it happened 9 years ago, I still get that sick feeling in my stomach whenever I think about it.		2010-09-11 21:32:00

Author:
Frinklebumper
Posts: 941

hmm. looks like I misremembered some if it, but I found the clip!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV0BVZG1j7E		2010-09-11 21:45:00

Author:
swanbrown
Posts: 898

Why? There are people spouting religous bs and your scared to offend someone?



Ever heard of Paul Ekman?
There are many ways to tell if someone is lying.
Most people who study facial expressions have a game, know what its called?
"See how many times the politician lies"



No, no i haven't 		2010-09-11 22:03:00

Author:
Unknown User

A Reasoned Objection:

I wasn't a kid when 9-11 happened. I was two days away from my 32nd birthday. As an older person, I may have a different perspective because I was old enough to understand what it was all about. I remember coming home and standing in front of my t.v. with tears streaming down my cheeks. I felt numb, sick, confused, conflicted. A few days later the anger hit me. It was pure rage at the absolute evil that exists in the world. How people refuse to allow others to live their lives in peace the way they want to. I was angry for all the children who would grow up without a parent, for all the husbands and wives who wouldn't see their spouse again. I was angry because this wasn't the action of one country that we could target and bring the awesome might of our military force against. This was an organization of evil people bent on killing innocent people because they were Americans. As an American I take that very personally. I was angry because we lost so many valiant heroes who went up those towers while everyone else was coming down.

My daughter was born in 2002 into a post-9-11 world. Like many of you too young to understand, it doesn't affect her the way it does me. We watched some of the ceremony this morning and the images brought all those memories back. I fought unsuccessfully to hold back my tears, again. I'm not someone given to tears easily either. Only one other tragedy effects me as much, and that is the memory of the shooting at Virginia Tech. As a Virginia Tech alumnus, that affects me on a deeply personal level too.

I take exception to having my opinion attributed to ignorance by someone who does not know me. How do you know how I reached my conclusion? You may reach a different conclusion than me, and that's fine, but do not run me or those who think as I do down because you don't understand where we are coming from. How dare you suggest that we are "those kind of people here at LBPC," as if we are all somehow bigoted? The arrogance of such an accusation! You think that just because you've run this through your brain and arrived at a conclusion that you are an expert in the American populace and their intellectual faculties? How about a little intellectual humility? I fully support mosque, church, synagogue building all over the world if people want them. But not there. I'm simply thinking of the sensitivity toward the 9-11 families. Does that make me bigoted? I served my country to defend religious freedom and all the rest of our freedoms. This isn't about freedom of any kind. It's about the fact that Muslim extremists committed an unspeakable act of evil in this place and other extremists want to claim the spot as an Islamic victory site for the Muslim world. Not that Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf would ever admit to that, just like he won't bring himself to condemn Hamas as a terrorist organization. What I haven't heard much clamor about is why St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, which stood at Ground Zero, is not being reconstructed on the land promised to it and why that land is at the center of an eminent domain dispute. Maybe this isn't really about religious tolerance but about appeasement of religious extremists.

As for Islam and Bin Laden. Bid Laden is a person revered by many who call themselves Muslims. I know a number of good people who are Muslim who would never do anything to hurt anyone. Some courageous Muslims have spoken out to condemn Bin Laden and his ilk, but too many will not. It isn't up to me to define Islam. I'm not Islamic. It is up to Muslims to stand and repudiate terrorists and their methods and not allow the terror groups, the huge number of terror groups, who identify themselves as Muslims to define the religion. Historically Muslims have viewed the spread of their faith in terms of conquest. They call it jihad. Jihad is diametrically opposed to notions of freedom of anything. As someone who has served his country to defend it's freedoms, I would rather die than see our country's laws become "Sharia compliant." Imam Rauf has publicly called for America to adopt aspects of Shariah Law. And intentionally or not, the decision to name this center the Cordoba Initiative invites speculation of how these individuals see this building. Cordoba is a city in Spain where a large mosque was built in the 8th century following its conquest by the Moors. With this battle, the Moors cemented their control over much of Spain, a Christian nation at the time. This is an example of the practice of building a mosque to Allah near the site of a major victory. By naming the Ground Zero mosque after Cordoba, the organizers are sending a clear signal to the rest of the world that this place is a major victory, a blow against the Great Satan, their term for the United States.

I know how some of you here operate in attack mode against anyone who holds a different opinion. I've been reading your responses to other people you disagree with for a while now and I thought it high time I said something. Now please pay attention: Reasonable people can reasonably disagree. That--let me be clear-- is the real nature of America, not just allowing an "anything goes" attitude to prevail in the name of tolerance. We debate matters from the halls of Congress to the water coolers in offices all across our country. But some of you have adopted a debate tactic called "name calling" to cow people into silence. You often lob the term "bigoted" or "racist" at anyone you disagree with and then think of yourselves as being virtuous. And while there are bigots and racists out there, it does not follow that all who disagree are of this sort. Nor are they ignorant. Tolerance is not the end all, be all. Do you tolerate everything? No. In fact, I find the biggest proponents of tolerance often really only tolerate the things they agree with. How convenient? Should we be tolerant of the peaceful conduct of other religions? Sure, why not. Just don't put a plaque of the 10 Commandments up where people can see them. Just don't allow a cross placed on a War Memorial in the Mojave Desert years ago to remain intact. If the court rules against you and says it can stay, just cut it down in the middle of the night and don't worry about whether that's a criminal act or not. Is that tolerance? I suppose if you think a certain way it might be. But fear not. I won't stoop to calling you ignorant.

And while on the subject of tolerance and the Muslim faith, can anyone tell me why its a crime to own a Bible in many Muslim countries? Why, a woman who landed in an airport in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, who was only connecting through to a different country and not staying in Saudi Arabia, had her Bible confiscated and destroyed, her crucifix ripped from her neck and mangled before her eyes? Why she was threatened with imprisonment and possibly torture? I'm not talking about extremist terrorist group members, but actual government officials acting on behalf of upholding their nation's laws and policies. Americans not tolerant? We were barely allowed to have Christian chaplains in that country when we parked several divisions of US Army soldiers and Marines to defend them against Saddam Hussein's Republican Guard in the 1991 Desert Storm campaign. They were quite worried about a possible invasion, which is why the operation was termed Desert Shield before it became Desert Storm. How soon we forget. But I guess that's ancient history to people not even born then.

I'm not intolerant. I'm not violent. I usually hold my tongue, but I will defend those who express a dissenting view from charges of ignorance or racism. I will also defend your right to hold your view that it's okay to upset the thousands of people who lost loved ones on this day nine years ago by building this mosque. I equally abhor attempts to denigrate other religions. Anyone who would burn any holy book or desecrate any sacred object or place intentionally does something inexcusable. I fully condemn such actions whole-heartedly. All Americans are not about that, but how many innocent Americans, or Europeans for that matter, will die because of the outrages to Islam done by a few of us? And are the primary clerics in many Muslim countries who warn of reprisals against Americans if this mosque isn't allowed to be built (one even called for the killing of American babies) talking only about the few extremists or about the average Muslim? I honestly don't know.

For me, this isn't a religious argument. It's a political one. I try not to be too political on LBPC since that's not why I come here, but as one who as been keenly involved in politics since before most of you were born, I am weighing in on this one. I have stated my argument as plainly as I can. I will not return to this thread to further debate the matter as I've said all I care to. As I said before, I know how some of you love to quote and attack and I get rather sick of that. You can disagree amicably, but when you declare others who don't agree with you to be in ignorance or to be bigoted, you make an unsubstantiated claim reflecting you own bias only. And that doesn't sound like much of an argument to me.		2010-09-11 22:29:00

Author:
thanatos989
Posts: 248

@ thanatos; double thanks to you. Right on!2010-09-11 22:45:00

Author:
swanbrown
Posts: 898

9/11 = stupid drama

respect the dead and mooooove on with life, it's like gas, it happens, and you live on.		2010-09-11 23:23:00

Author:
Unknown User

I hope that wasn't aimed at me

Oh, nope. I didn't aim anything I said to anyone in particular. In fact what I said doesn't even have to be about 9/11, people are constantly pulling at catastrophic events for their own ends and it's very disrespectful to those involved... ah, news and politics.

In a way I agree with you, since using this as a means to get people excited is accomplishing their goal. Here in NYC, we're keeping our cool. We can handle anything. 		2010-09-11 23:32:00

Author:
Foofles
Posts: 2278

http://i52.tinypic.com/m9yvcn.jpg

:/		2010-09-11 23:36:00

Author:
Bremnen
Posts: 1800

A Reasoned Objection:

I wasn't a kid when 9-11 happened. I was two days away from my 32nd birthday. As an older person, I may have a different perspective because I was old enough to understand what it was all about. I remember coming home and standing in front of my t.v. with tears streaming down my cheeks. I felt numb, sick, confused, conflicted. A few days later the anger hit me. It was pure rage at the absolute evil that exists in the world. How people refuse to allow others to live their lives in peace the way they want to. I was angry for all the children who would grow up without a parent, for all the husbands and wives who wouldn't see their spouse again. I was angry because this wasn't the action of one country that we could target and bring the awesome might of our military force against. This was an organization of evil people bent on killing innocent people because they were Americans. As an American I take that very personally. I was angry because we lost so many valiant heroes who went up those towers while everyone else was coming down.

My daughter was born in 2002 into a post-9-11 world. Like many of you too young to understand, it doesn't affect her the way it does me. We watched some of the ceremony this morning and the images brought all those memories back. I fought unsuccessfully to hold back my tears, again. I'm not someone given to tears easily either. Only one other tragedy effects me as much, and that is the memory of the shooting at Virginia Tech. As a Virginia Tech alumnus, that affects me on a deeply personal level too.

I take exception to having my opinion attributed to ignorance by someone who does not know me. How do you know how I reached my conclusion? You may reach a different conclusion than me, and that's fine, but do not run me or those who think as I do down because you don't understand where we are coming from. How dare you suggest that we are "those kind of people here at LBPC," as if we are all somehow bigoted? The arrogance of such an accusation! You think that just because you've run this through your brain and arrived at a conclusion that you are an expert in the American populace and their intellectual faculties? How about a little intellectual humility? I fully support mosque, church, synagogue building all over the world if people want them. But not there. I'm simply thinking of the sensitivity toward the 9-11 families. Does that make me bigoted? I served my country to defend religious freedom and all the rest of our freedoms. This isn't about freedom of any kind. It's about the fact that Muslim extremists committed an unspeakable act of evil in this place and other extremists want to claim the spot as an Islamic victory site for the Muslim world. Not that Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf would ever admit to that, just like he won't bring himself to condemn Hamas as a terrorist organization. What I haven't heard much clamor about is why St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, which stood at Ground Zero, is not being reconstructed on the land promised to it and why that land is at the center of an eminent domain dispute. Maybe this isn't really about religious tolerance but about appeasement of religious extremists.

As for Islam and Bin Laden. Bid Laden is a person revered by many who call themselves Muslims. I know a number of good people who are Muslim who would never do anything to hurt anyone. Some courageous Muslims have spoken out to condemn Bin Laden and his ilk, but too many will not. It isn't up to me to define Islam. I'm not Islamic. It is up to Muslims to stand and repudiate terrorists and their methods and not allow the terror groups, the huge number of terror groups, who identify themselves as Muslims to define the religion. Historically Muslims have viewed the spread of their faith in terms of conquest. They call it jihad. Jihad is diametrically opposed to notions of freedom of anything. As someone who has served his country to defend it's freedoms, I would rather die than see our country's laws become "Sharia compliant." Imam Rauf has publicly called for America to adopt aspects of Shariah Law. And intentionally or not, the decision to name this center the Cordoba Initiative invites speculation of how these individuals see this building. Cordoba is a city in Spain where a large mosque was built in the 8th century following its conquest by the Moors. With this battle, the Moors cemented their control over much of Spain, a Christian nation at the time. This is an example of the practice of building a mosque to Allah near the site of a major victory. By naming the Ground Zero mosque after Cordoba, the organizers are sending a clear signal to the rest of the world that this place is a major victory, a blow against the Great Satan, their term for the United States.

I know how some of you here operate in attack mode against anyone who holds a different opinion. I've been reading your responses to other people you disagree with for a while now and I thought it high time I said something. Now please pay attention: Reasonable people can reasonably disagree. That--let me be clear-- is the real nature of America, not just allowing an "anything goes" attitude to prevail in the name of tolerance. We debate matters from the halls of Congress to the water coolers in offices all across our country. But some of you have adopted a debate tactic called "name calling" to cow people into silence. You often lob the term "bigoted" or "racist" at anyone you disagree with and then think of yourselves as being virtuous. And while there are bigots and racists out there, it does not follow that all who disagree are of this sort. Nor are they ignorant. Tolerance is not the end all, be all. Do you tolerate everything? No. In fact, I find the biggest proponents of tolerance often really only tolerate the things they agree with. How convenient? Should we be tolerant of the peaceful conduct of other religions? Sure, why not. Just don't put a plaque of the 10 Commandments up where people can see them. Just don't allow a cross placed on a War Memorial in the Mojave Desert years ago to remain intact. If the court rules against you and says it can stay, just cut it down in the middle of the night and don't worry about whether that's a criminal act or not. Is that tolerance? I suppose if you think a certain way it might be. But fear not. I won't stoop to calling you ignorant.

And while on the subject of tolerance and the Muslim faith, can anyone tell me why its a crime to own a Bible in many Muslim countries? Why, a woman who landed in an airport in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, who was only connecting through to a different country and not staying in Saudi Arabia, had her Bible confiscated and destroyed, her crucifix ripped from her neck and mangled before her eyes? Why she was threatened with imprisonment and possibly torture? I'm not talking about extremist terrorist group members, but actual government officials acting on behalf of upholding their nation's laws and policies. Americans not tolerant? We were barely allowed to have Christian chaplains in that country when we parked several divisions of US Army soldiers and Marines to defend them against Saddam Hussein's Republican Guard in the 1991 Desert Storm campaign. They were quite worried about a possible invasion, which is why the operation was termed Desert Shield before it became Desert Storm. How soon we forget. But I guess that's ancient history to people not even born then.

I'm not intolerant. I'm not violent. I usually hold my tongue, but I will defend those who express a dissenting view from charges of ignorance or racism. I will also defend your right to hold your view that it's okay to upset the thousands of people who lost loved ones on this day nine years ago by building this mosque. I equally abhor attempts to denigrate other religions. Anyone who would burn any holy book or desecrate any sacred object or place intentionally does something inexcusable. I fully condemn such actions whole-heartedly. All Americans are not about that, but how many innocent Americans, or Europeans for that matter, will die because of the outrages to Islam done by a few of us? And are the primary clerics in many Muslim countries who warn of reprisals against Americans if this mosque isn't allowed to be built (one even called for the killing of American babies) talking only about the few extremists or about the average Muslim? I honestly don't know.

For me, this isn't a religious argument. It's a political one. I try not to be too political on LBPC since that's not why I come here, but as one who as been keenly involved in politics since before most of you were born, I am weighing in on this one. I have stated my argument as plainly as I can. I will not return to this thread to further debate the matter as I've said all I care to. As I said before, I know how some of you love to quote and attack and I get rather sick of that. You can disagree amicably, but when you declare others who don't agree with you to be in ignorance or to be bigoted, you make an unsubstantiated claim reflecting you own bias only. And that doesn't sound like much of an argument to me.

Although you're the most rational people who I've seen argue against the Ground Zero Mosque, I'm afraid your argument, at least to me, is still unconvincing. I know you probably won't be reading this, but I still have a few things to say about your statement.

First off, just because people claim an argument is biased or intolerant, doesn't necessarily mean that that isn't true. And I tread lightly when I say this, but your argument was laced with just the slightest hint of some generalizations; not ignorance, not racism, just some misled assumptions. You ask others to not assume that they know about the way Americans think and feel. I ask the same of you, now, towards the Islamic religion. How do you know every single one of them agreed with what happened? How do you know that the clerics that speak out against America and the Saudi Arabian government officials who burn the Bible are accurate representations of what the Islamic populace is like? How do you know that the Mosque which they plan to build there is some sort of 'victory beacon'? You don't know, and I certainly don't know, but as Americans, we should allow them too anyways, because even we let the KKK protest when they do it peacefully, and you know they committed terrible crimes. hey, in the past, every religion or other has committed horrible crimes; the Catholics who employed their own form of Jihad in the crusades and burned scientists at the stake., for example.

Perhaps your strongest point is that of the sensibility issue... But we shouldn't be sensitive about it, is the problem. We're sensitive about it because we automatically associate Islam with the people who committed the worst act of terrorism ever to occur on American soil. It shouldn't be that way; we need to stop assuming they're one and the same. The terrorists were Muslim, yes, but otherwise their goals were completely unrelated to the Islamic religion.

I'm sorry to have to do this, but I just don't want people to feel hate, contempt, or fear anymore. Whether it's right or it isn't, when we start a firestorm over whether we should build that Mosque, we show the terrorists the exact emotion they set out to inspire in us that fateful day; fear.		2010-09-11 23:46:00

Author:
Astrosimi
Posts: 2046

i was going to do the same thing, but you beat me to it, but its the thought that counts.
Rest In Peace

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl1L8GQIPhw&feature=player_embedded		2010-09-12 00:24:00

Author:
LWBear2
Posts: 332

I was quite young at the time - We were going to fly across to America for the first time. I was going to see my uncle's wedding... And then we turned on the news. I saw the people jumping out... It was horrible... We never did see the wedding.2010-09-12 00:31:00

Author:
Keanster96
Posts: 1436

I know, building a mosque on ground zero is like building a U.S embassy in Hiroshima

What? thats pretty harsh im not a muslim but because of the actions of a few people millions of people are categorised as terrorists, or haters of the west or whatever.		2010-09-12 00:58:00

Author:
Unknown User

I still remember everything about that tragic day. I was 6 years old and it was 12:00 in DR and that day they let us go early home than my mother was in the TV check in the news then all I remember was this in spanish "las torrst se estan cagendo personas estan saltando (sorry I havent written spanish for many years)" my mom, my brother, and I were looking at the TV with a strange sensation, this strange feeling of horror. That God none of my family members work in the tows or live near there.

But to the people that lost their lives God bless them all.		2010-09-12 01:01:00

Author:
Arnald23
Posts: 1843

Well When It Happened My Mom Was Pregnant With Me So I Wasn't There, But About 2 Years Ago I Watched The Whole Bunch Of Clips... Even The One With The People Jumping Out It Was Terrible I Started Crying.... I Pray For The Family's Who Lost Someone They Loved To Live A Healthy Good Life..... And For The Suicide Bombers They Don't Deserve To Be Alive Or Go To Heaven...... (Tell Me If That Was To Harsh)2010-09-12 01:12:00

Author:
chinook3
Posts: 453

What suicide bombers?




Huh..... Oh SH-CRUD Sorry I Should Do Some Research Huh.... (Dang It I Messed Up)

EDIT: Oh Now I Get It Thanks		2010-09-12 01:35:00

Author:
chinook3
Posts: 453

I swear to god if this gets the thread dead redemption because of you guys im seriously going to be mad at you. 9/11 was serious its not like posting a cussword or trolling someones myspace thousands of people died that day and if you wanna make a BIG joke about it then you should be pretty **** ashamed about yourself. dont turn this into an argument thread youre lucky england hasnt had an incident like this happen. if youre such a patriot to your own country then make a dang thread about it dont spew your crap here. it doesnt matter whether 9/11 was a conspiracy or something else, those thousands of people had to pay the price for whoever "conspired" the event and if you cant have the decency to respect them then you should be shunned2010-09-12 01:44:00

Author:
Charlemagne
Posts: 513

Look, I don't mind people arguing about 9/11, but this is a thread to remember it, not argue about it. All arguing will do is distract people from just remembering those who perished, if you wish to communicate a point of view, no matter how you feel about it, this is not the place to do it.2010-09-12 01:47:00

Author:
HappyGreenCactus
Posts: 247

What would Satan look like?

Pfft.... i dont know....

osama bin laden/bush		2010-09-12 01:54:00

Author:
Charlemagne
Posts: 513

All I did was say the government did it and not some Muslim extremists, if you think im trolling then don't quote and reply.
Don't Feed the Trolls.

Please do not continue with this discussion. The creator of this thread wanted to honor those who died, not argue about 'Who dunnit?' This is not the site for those discussions, and we'll ask you to take them elsewhere.

I am editing your signature. If you would like to replace it with something more appropriate, then that's fine.

2010-09-12 02:49:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

Pfft.... i dont know....

osama bin laden/bush

Your cool.		2010-09-12 04:07:00

Author:
Unknown User

Your cool.

Didn't you know? He's the coolest cat around. He'll get back to you on the whole Satan's appearance thing, hell's where he is headed...		2010-09-12 04:09:00

Author:
Unknown User

Didn't you know? He's the coolest cat around. He'll get back to you on the whole Satan's appearance thing, hell's where he is headed...

I love you <3

but you needs back off my man comphy >		2010-09-12 04:14:00

Author:
Unknown User

I love you <3

but you needs back off my man comphy >

Sorry, no can do... We can share him? <3		2010-09-12 04:15:00

Author:
Unknown User

Sorry, no can do... We can share him? <3

I get him Friday Saturday and Sunday. You can have him Monday tuesday and Wednesday. Thursday is his free day.		2010-09-12 04:21:00

Author:
Unknown User

Shouldn't this conversation go in the love thread?2010-09-12 04:23:00

Author:
Incinerator22
Posts: 3251

I just remember coming home from school when I was in like 1st grade I believe. I could definitely be wrong, and seeing buildings smoking on TV. I didn't really understand it back then...2010-09-12 04:26:00

Author:
eagerneph
Posts: 1536

I get him Friday Saturday and Sunday. You can have him Monday tuesday and Wednesday. Thursday is his free day.

But we can't have fun on a work night! D: I want him Friday.


Shouldn't this conversation go in the love thread?

Maybe, but there is another thread about this elsewhere, so it's serving little purpose anyway.		2010-09-12 04:39:00

Author:
Unknown User

I was working at a restaurant. A small family owned one... My boss called me into his office, which was weird. He told me the first tower had fallen, and then we all watched in horror as the second plane hit. There was a lot of confusion and shock amongst us... We weren't even sure if we should stay open, or go home and glue ourselves to our TVs. My boss mustered his best rally voice and said that restaurants are where people gather to discuss events and react to them together, so we stayed open.

Sure enough, the place filled up and the events in New York were all anyone was talking about. Very somber day.		2010-09-12 04:39:00

Author:
SpeedyMcKnuckles
Posts: 331

So... how about all those people that lost their lives on 9/11, eh? Real shame. My thoughts go out to their friends and family.2010-09-12 05:23:00

Author:
Enlong3
Posts: 357

We were talking about 9/11? I didn't even notice.

It was a dark day in history... in preschool some of my friends lost relatives.		2010-09-12 05:25:00

Author:
Arkei
Posts: 1432

Try me. come on i dare you. try me.(joking)
and what ive seen you write does not seem like logic it seems like youve been trying to **** me off in which you have succeded, congratulations!		2010-09-12 05:33:00

Author:
Charlemagne
Posts: 513

It seems the victim has become the troll. You sneaky monkey. Ill do it in PMs ecause threads just won't cut it, also I still have water in my head from drowning in a pool, lmao. Also, you can atop trying to act tough in your big boy undies. c:

looks like someones trying to act like Alex (how the hell did my auto correct turn Alex into Alwx?) and you spelled congratulations wrong. A winner is you. And if logic is all it takes to /cough '****' you off, then oh lord this is just too easy.		2010-09-12 05:36:00

Author:
Unknown User

Maturity? you guys are the ones trolling me. im trying to tell you that what you think i intend to say is wrong. saying that the muslims who did it should burn in hell doesnt mean the whole race should i like muslims but i hate Al queda, something tells me you guys ARE doing this intentionally like you claim to not be, and i do speak spanish i dont prefer to speak it because most of the people on here speak english. and sure i do make grammar errors because i prefer to type fast. /Facepalm


Try me. come on i dare you. try me.
and what ive seen you write does not seem like logic it seems like youve been trying to **** me off in which you have succeded, congradulations!

yepumad.

Your also screwed.

Lucky for you, Comph told me to not argue in here.
Sooooo, so only have to deal with Alex an inan, unless you specifically tell me something. c:		2010-09-12 05:43:00

Author:
Bremnen
Posts: 1800

So you admit that i was the victim before? dont compare me with barbarians and you sneaky little monkey right back at you 2010-09-12 05:44:00

Author:
Charlemagne
Posts: 513

Lolz okay you win
Edit: still,respect 9/11 		2010-09-12 05:54:00

Author:
Charlemagne
Posts: 513

Alright guys, don't make this thread get locked. And if you must sort out your differences, either do it in a civilized, rationalized matter, or take it to PMs or something. I may seem like a hypocrite saying this, since I did indeed involve myself into a debate earlier in this thread, but this is a -below-the-belt scenario you guys got here. Please, let's not let this thread about the people who died become just another link in the mod's chain of locks.2010-09-12 06:54:00

Author:
Astrosimi
Posts: 2046

Alright guys, don't make this thread get locked. And if you must sort out your differences, either do it in a civilized, rationalized matter, or take it to PMs or something. I may seem like a hypocrite saying this, since I did indeed involve myself into a debate earlier in this thread, but this is a -below-the-belt scenario you guys got here. Please, let's not let this thread about the people who died become just another link in the mod's chain of locks.

Dude, your a little late to the party. xD

We all shut up an hour ago.. 		2010-09-12 07:03:00

Author:
Bremnen
Posts: 1800

I need to get better at this 0_o

Oh well, all's well that ends well, in a well with Orson Welles.		2010-09-12 07:14:00

Author:
Astrosimi
Posts: 2046

And on that note, I am locking this thread. I am disappointed that some of you disregarded comph's request to stop the heated discussion and simply remember the victims of 9/11. We can also remember the London bombing victims.

We do not need to lay blame in order to do that. We do not need to bring on the conspiracy theories in order to do that.People lost loved ones in horrific circumstances. Why on earth some of you need to indulge yourselves by spiralling down into debate and name calling is simply beyond me.
Thanks to those of you who contributed in a mature and sentivite way. I'll be seeing the rest of you after class.

Locked.		2010-09-12 10:41:00

Author:
BabyDoll1970
Posts: 1567


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