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Emails from the Molecule: How powerful is LBP2 Electronics?

Archive: 136 posts

We get lots of interesting/random/silly email threads around the office here at Media Molecule - and some are simply too good not to share with <em>teh internets</em>. So we thought we’d start a new blog feature, “<em>Emails from the Molecule</em>”.

A few weeks ago one of our überprogrammers, <a href="http://www.mediamolecule.com/about/whos_who/#ChrisC" title="Chris">Chris</a>, sent this email around the office when he started to play around with some of the advanced logic tools available in LittleBigPlanet 2.

<blockquote><strong>From:</strong> Chris

<strong>Subject: </strong>How powerful is LBP2 electronics?

<strong>Date:</strong> 24 July 2010 15:12:36<br/>

Thought I?d have a fiddle with LBP2’s logic capability, drawing on some digital electronics experience ? wanted to share my first digital circuitry…<br/>

<div class="center"><img src="http://www.mediamolecule.com/images/uploads/emailsfromthemolecule-chris-1.jpg" alt="Oooooh!" width="622" height="503" />		2010-08-20 11:00:00

Author:
Spaff_Molecule
Posts: 421

COOLIO! look a bit hard though....2010-08-20 11:19:00

Author:
Unknown User

Wow looks impressive.2010-08-20 11:19:00

Author:
ladylyn1
Posts: 836

Aaahhh.. of course... thats what it does ???2010-08-20 11:25:00

Author:
wexfordian
Posts: 1904

Q: Will I need a degree in computer science to use the logic fully in LBP2
A: No, but it'll help 		2010-08-20 11:46:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

Looks soooo much easier! It'd take up the entire thermo in LBP1... 2010-08-20 12:25:00

Author:
piggabling
Posts: 2979

simples, yes?

so much better than LBP1		2010-08-20 12:48:00

Author:
Pattington_Bear
Posts: 777

It'd take up the entire thermo in LBP1...

8 pistons, 8 emitters, 8mag keys and 8 mag switches - basically a mag switch, mag key, piston and emitter for each data bit - I've got a 32 bit register sitting on my moon at home Obviously LBP2 is better, don't get me wrong, but it's quite a simple thing to reproduce in LBP.

Looking at it, I think he's just reproduced standard D-type flip-flop circuits that you'd find in any electronics textbook (look for the version derived from a T-type flip flop)*. On paper, I reckon I could drop the contents of each of those microchips down to 4 components (a counter, 2x 2input AND gates and a NOT gate). I believe** that would reduce the latency of the system but who knows which is the better solution thermo-wise.

Yes, I'm being a **** again, don't look so surprised, this is what I do


*Edit, actually that's not a standard design I don't think. Normally you wouldn't use a Toggle for the core of a data latch, so ignore that bit.
**Edit again - I don't know though of course. IIRC NOT gates have zero latency but some of the other devices I am unsure of.


Hmmm... Have I just killed this thread?		2010-08-20 12:49:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Posted in the wrong place spaff! What's wrong with you?!!



EDIT: Wait a minute...		2010-08-20 13:40:00

Author:
qrtda235566
Posts: 3664

That's awesome! 2010-08-20 13:43:00

Author:
Dragonvarsity
Posts: 5208

ow my head lol2010-08-20 13:45:00

Author:
vezonfan01
Posts: 293

Sackboy looks tired from all that thinking. 2010-08-20 14:16:00

Author:
midnight_heist
Posts: 2513

Now that there is real logic
haha i still like timers and timer edits the best~ Yohoo		2010-08-20 14:42:00

Author:
Lord-Dreamerz
Posts: 4261

*Edit, actually that's not a standard design I don't think. Normally you wouldn't use a Toggle for the core of a data latch, so ignore that bit.
**Edit again - I don't know though of course. IIRC NOT gates have zero latency but some of the other devices I am unsure of.


Hmmm... Have I just killed this thread?

I can see your wheels turning already. 		2010-08-20 14:52:00

Author:
Powershifter
Posts: 668

a counter, 2x 2input AND gates and a NOT gate

Based on skimming through and seeing you try to optimize, this is what I've got as well.

Two 2-input AND gates, each receiving one signal from the button. AND gate A receives its second signal directly from the two-way switch. AND gate B receives its second symbol from the two-way switch, via a NOT gate.

AND gate A is wired to the counter, which can count as high as one (it's a big'un). And gate B is wired to the counter's reset. Counter is wired to the output display, which appears to be a light.

Yes?

Edit: Interesting side note: I see the "Check Mark" tool used in the above diagrams. What is that all about? It seems to correspond to the output of the system. Bah... why have you changed the look of all the tools on me!?

2010-08-20 15:32:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

Yep, but you do need to process the clk signal (from the button) into a pulse for that to work, which can be achieved using another counter (self resetting). Otherwise you don't have edge-triggering logic and it doesn't actually work properly.

The check mark is the toggle and the new graphics are very schmexy 		2010-08-20 15:41:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Should I just make an appointment with you now rtm to explain this new fangled stuff to me or should I wait until I have the game in hand and my brain in a puddle on the floor? lol

Looks like the first day of school all over again on Nov. 16th. Very exciting... and a little scary!		2010-08-20 15:46:00

Author:
Morgana25
Posts: 5983

Yep, but you do need to process the clk signal (from the button) into a pulse for that to work, which can be achieved using another counter (self resetting). Otherwise you don't have edge-triggering logic and it doesn't actually work properly.

Not sure on your terminology, but I'm not buying that it wouldn't work as I've described. Why would a continuous signal fail to set the counter?		2010-08-20 15:51:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

It took me about 3 seconds to get completly confussed in this topic.2010-08-20 15:55:00

Author:
Mkwone
Posts: 104

On a side note... I know all the symbols for the switches have changed since we saw them but from what I saw on the various new videos doing the rounds, it looks like the have a LOT more types of switches than what we got to play around with...2010-08-20 15:56:00

Author:
wexfordian
Posts: 1904

I disagree, Wex. They are mostly the same, just with entirely new looks. In the GamesCom video, you catch a glimpse of the tools, and they looked to be the same, just with a new veneer.2010-08-20 16:06:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

The device, as described in the OP, is designed to sample the data input at an exact moment in time, typically at the point when the clock signal goes from low to high (rising edge). It should then hold that value until the next sampling point. Basically, it's like a one shot triggered signal in LBP - which are the equivalent of edge-triggered logic in the real world.

Despite the counter being inherently one-shot triggered, the entire device is not. If you press the button / clock, then the device becomes transparent - output is a reflection of the input. This is because you could continue to set / reset the counter all the time the button is pressed. Which is wrong, and would break the system if you wished to use it for it's various purposes in a microcontroller.


As a side note, this pulse generator that would be required is only needed once and can be shared around all of the devices. In an 8 bit microprocessor, you'd probably want ~100 of these devices (used for a mixture of registers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Processor_register) and for your pipeline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pipeline_(computing)), so a single pulse generator is nothing in terms of the entire system.


@wex: magnetic switches, keys, sensors and all that malarky have changed their look to be more like the logic devices as well and all the movers look like that too. I don't think there is anything much new in there, bar those sequencers.

2010-08-20 16:07:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Ah, I see. Yes, I got that you could share the pulse across all devices, but I guess I was naive to purpose of the device. Lacking experience, I'm not super-comfortable with its uses. But I get it. 2010-08-20 16:12:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

What is this I don't even2010-08-20 16:15:00

Author:
Fish94
Posts: 554

It's one of the most common devices in digital electronics and in honesty, I'm amazed they haven't added one into the toolset. I know it's not obviously something we use that often in LBP, but its a great fundamental device to have available.

Again, more side notes, for anyone who likes to think in programming terms. Imagine the D-type flip flop as a boolean variable. At any point in time you can set it to true or false, and it remembers that value, and you can read it back at any time. The 8-bit version just allows you to store 8 variables, or one 8-bit variable.

It is also possible (sort of) to sample a analogue (think speed) value with the new tools as well. Which is kewl.


I love this stuff 		2010-08-20 16:21:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Should I just make an appointment with you now rtm to explain this new fangled stuff to me or should I wait until I have the game in hand and my brain in a puddle on the floor? lol

Looks like the first day of school all over again on Nov. 16th. Very exciting... and a little scary!

I completely agree. Let these guys figure it out so they can explain it to us normal people jk..... sort of...		2010-08-20 16:22:00

Author:
Powershifter
Posts: 668

Imagine the D-type flip flop as a boolean variable.

And the wiggle wom as a zip zorp..		2010-08-20 16:26:00

Author:
Fish94
Posts: 554

Lol, it should be noted that geeks shouldn't, under and circumstances, be allowed to name anything... You know that the proper, technical term for half a byte is a 'nibble', right?

Anyways, that variable storage should make sense to anyone who's done a bit of programming before.		2010-08-20 16:35:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

I tend to take mega bytes myself. my wife says I eat too fast....

...sorry, I just had to say it 		2010-08-20 16:39:00

Author:
Powershifter
Posts: 668

I tend to take mega bytes myself. my wife says I eat too fast....

...sorry, I just had to say it

I'm a slower eater. Eating the food bit by bit. And when I'm full I still have a nibble!
Ok, sorry.

Thanks for sharing guys.		2010-08-20 16:43:00

Author:
Jedi_1993
Posts: 1518

You lost me at logic !2010-08-20 16:43:00

Author:
mistervista
Posts: 2210

Lol, it should be noted that geeks shouldn't, under and circumstances, be allowed to name anything... You know that the proper, technical term for half a byte is a 'nibble', right?

Anyways, that variable storage should make sense to anyone who's done a bit of programming before.

I love the idea of variable storage. Can't wait to get my pop it all over that stuff! woo hoo!		2010-08-20 16:48:00

Author:
jwwphotos
Posts: 11383

The device, as described in the OP, is designed to sample the data input at an exact moment in time, typically at the point when the clock signal goes from low to high (rising edge). It should then hold that value until the next sampling point. Basically, it's like a one shot triggered signal in LBP - which are the equivalent of edge-triggered logic in the real world.

Despite the counter being inherently one-shot triggered, the entire device is not. If you press the button / clock, then the device becomes transparent - output is a reflection of the input. This is because you could continue to set / reset the counter all the time the button is pressed. Which is wrong, and would break the system if you wished to use it for it's various purposes in a microcontroller.


As a side note, this pulse generator that would be required is only needed once and can be shared around all of the devices. In an 8 bit microprocessor, you'd probably want ~100 of these devices (used for a mixture of registers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Processor_register) and for your pipeline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pipeline_(computing)), so a single pulse generator is nothing in terms of the entire system.


@wex: magnetic switches, keys, sensors and all that malarky have changed their look to be more like the logic devices as well and all the movers look like that too. I don't think there is anything much new in there, bar those sequencers.



http://i35.tinypic.com/2z54tpc.jpg		2010-08-20 16:49:00

Author:
Jovuto
Posts: 2345

Could someone, maybe, explain what exactly it does and what it is in English maybe? I'm really really confused as to the purpose of this logic...

2010-08-20 16:51:00

Author:
standby250
Posts: 1113

If you want I can publish a version of it tonight so you can at least see what it does? Would that help if you could see the behaviour?2010-08-20 17:04:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

This (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=33537-Nerdgasm) was rtm's reaction when he first saw this thread...



Only kidding, rtm...		2010-08-20 17:07:00

Author:
Doopz
Posts: 5592

http://www.thephoenixpub.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/confused.jpg2010-08-20 17:08:00

Author:
shindol
Posts: 78

If you want I can publish a version of it tonight so you can at least see what it does? Would that help if you could see the behaviour?

yep I'd be interested in seeing that! I'd love to learn more about complex logic.		2010-08-20 17:09:00

Author:
wexfordian
Posts: 1904

8 pistons, 8 emitters, 8mag keys and 8 mag switches - basically a mag switch, mag key, piston and emitter for each data bit - I've got a 32 bit register sitting on my moon at home Obviously LBP2 is better, don't get me wrong, but it's quite a simple thing to reproduce in LBP.

I was being sarcastic... 		2010-08-20 17:19:00

Author:
piggabling
Posts: 2979

I can just see that everyone will be competing to have the most complex logic when the beta comes out. I have a few cool idea's of the stuff I will do.2010-08-20 17:38:00

Author:
Zmathue
Posts: 62

I can just see that everyone will be competing to have the most complex logic when the beta comes out. I have a few cool idea's of the stuff I will do.

you know what logic i'll be useing in LBP2???
..... Timer logic still most likely, xd
i love them timers on timers etc, hehe		2010-08-20 18:01:00

Author:
Lord-Dreamerz
Posts: 4261

If you want I can publish a version of it tonight so you can at least see what it does? Would that help if you could see the behaviour?

OK, it's done. Uploaded as D-Type Flip Flop, to the north of my moon. It's just a single bit device, but you can copy 8x to have what is displayed in the OP.

Basically you can waggle the lever about as much as you want, but the light won't change. When you press the button, the flip-flop remembers what position the lever was in and transfers that value to the light. Just play with it for a while and you'll see what it is. It won't be so obvious why its useful, but I don't have time to put together an application right now - I have important things to do before pubtime.		2010-08-20 18:33:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Ive been developing a mental plan for months on a way upload data from a "computer" into a small 1x1 block with a microchip on it, and onto another computer. WITHOUT ANY WIRES CONNECTING THE COMPUTERS OR MICROCHIPS. I dont want to give up too much info cause i wanna be the first one to do it, but it involves turning on and off magnetic keys. The microchip will give the computer a signal, so that the microchip starts reading on and off signals from a magnetic key(bits) at the exact same time that the computer puts out flashes of a magnetic key. NO MOVING PEICES AT ALL.

reply if you think this is a good idea. has anyone thought of this?

EDIT: I didnt realize this is what you were talking about, I dont exactly know all the programming vocab

EDIT 2: The difference between me and this guy (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/sho...light=wireless) is that i was planning on USING ONLY 1 magnetic key, one key switch, 2 selectors, and 2 timers ALTOGETHER		2010-08-20 18:35:00

Author:
Unknown User

Sorry buddy,

https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=30166-Multi-channel-wireless-logic-the-new-light-over-mag-key-switch&highlight=wireless

It's not gonna be anything that blows people's minds tbh. I've been doing similar things in LBP1 (for use this emitted objects pretty much as long as I've been playing the game, the switching of magnetic keys just makes it easier.

Actually, reading your post again it sounds like you would be extending that to be either a sychronous or asynchronous (probably the latter, as you can use the in-game clock to implicit sync) bus mechanism. Rather than flashes of mag keys that you have to sync exactly with, have them keep their values for a period of time and read in the middle of that period. You'll probably want devices like in the OP to actually do the input and output at the transmitters and receivers.		2010-08-20 18:42:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Hang on i wrote this before i read what you guys just wrote.... but ive been thinking the same thing i just wanted to say.

EDIT: what is OP exactly?
PS just wanted to say cant wait to see what you do with LBP 2 XD		2010-08-20 18:50:00

Author:
Unknown User

EDIT: what is OP exactly?

Original Post. The first post in the thread.		2010-08-20 20:25:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

Honestly-- no kidding... Not one word did I understand. Feel so silly. Knew I should have learned another language.2010-08-20 20:30:00

Author:
Gravel
Posts: 1308

Oh my gosh! People are gonna be able to make freakin COMPUTERS in this game!2010-08-20 20:58:00

Author:
eagerneph
Posts: 1536

Oh my gosh! People are gonna be able to make freakin COMPUTERS in this game!

Like best game eva, rite?


K @you guys with awesome computer knowledge; we should build a LBP2 - in play-mode create mode, like alex suggested. C'mon, its gota be possible. 		2010-08-20 21:16:00

Author:
Fishrock123
Posts: 1578

I do know what a boolean variable is...but that's about it. 2010-08-21 00:05:00

Author:
midnight_heist
Posts: 2513

Sure it's possible.... But is it interesting and exciting? Logic for logic's sake is relatively dull and souless. Someone before mentioned people competing fot who had the most complex logic.... We used to have that in lbp1, where people would brag about how many pistons they had used... So what? Probably means your logic is inefficient, well done.

The beauty of lbp2 logic is that it really gives us the chance to use logic for enhancing the player's experience. We don't so much have to concern ourselves with how we can make something work, as making it work in a way that will be more fun for people playing. That's the real challenge... You can reproduce electronic devices till the cows come home, but show me some subtle use of logic that enhances the gameplay in a way the player never really understands, then you'll have understood what lbp logic is all about

/Drunken phylosopher		2010-08-21 00:05:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

/Drunken phylosopher

Mythbusters says that slapping you will help that a bit, shall I?

You should probably sleep it off before trying to say anything here... Your last post missed the point of what we were saying, and i'm not sure which one of us you were talking to.


The point of making a computer would be to run some sort of mini-mini games on it, so not so dull and soulless. - and making a simple version of create mode in LBP would just be impressive. -essentially making low version of the game you used to make it.

/My Oppinions		2010-08-21 00:16:00

Author:
Fishrock123
Posts: 1578

Original Post. The first post in the thread.

I always thought it was Opening Post, =/ anyway dont mean to get off topic D:		2010-08-21 00:17:00

Author:
Snrm
Posts: 6419

The only reason I would want to see a create in play mode game would be so someone could create a level in the play mode that if someone else was able to play that creation they would be creating in the play mode as well to the extent that they themselves even though they are nonexistent beings would be able to themselves create a level in which the possible creation of a level in which the player who at this point definitely does not exist due to the fact he would be playing a level made by an nonexistent creator would be able to create a level in which another player again nonexistent would be able to create etc etc I think that chunk of text makes sense.2010-08-21 00:27:00

Author:
robotiod
Posts: 2662

Ugh.
You guys are confusing me with your mathematical mumbo-jumbo.
On a side note, yay for more complicated logic!
2010-08-21 00:53:00

Author:
Mastadom
Posts: 195

/Drunken phylosopher

Well said, my thoughts exactly. Although sadly your spelling does not handle alcohol as well as your philosophy.


The point of making a computer would be to run some sort of mini-mini games on it, so not so dull and soulless. - and making a simple version of create mode in LBP would just be impressive. -essentially making low version of the game you used to make it.

Usually it's much better to fake these things. For example, to get those arkanoid/pong arcade machines in the story levels, they could have emulated the hardware of classic arcade machines, and written machine code to run on the emulated hardware, like you suggest with the computer for minigames. But do you really think that's what they did?		2010-08-21 01:07:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

Sure it's possible.... But is it interesting and exciting? Logic for logic's sake is relatively dull and souless. Someone before mentioned people competing fot who had the most complex logic.... We used to have that in lbp1, where people would brag about how many pistons they had used... So what? Probably means your logic is inefficient, well done.

It was a bad choice of words for me to say complex logic, what was trying to say was that there will be a lot of competition between people trying to see who can build complex objects/actions with the simplest (probably not straight forward) logic.		2010-08-21 01:25:00

Author:
Zmathue
Posts: 62

So...

Its like the calculator for LBP, but its smaller, a lot less on thermo and has RAM?


Holy hell.		2010-08-21 01:39:00

Author:
tomodon246
Posts: 624

Usually it's much better to fake these things. For example, to get those arkanoid/pong arcade machines in the story levels, they could have emulated the hardware of classic arcade machines, and written machine code to run on the emulated hardware, like you suggest with the computer for minigames. But do you really think that's what they did?

Duh. But with a computer you could in theory have more complex games, and possibly multiple games on one "computer". Not that is uber useful, but eh. Just for the sake of it, right?		2010-08-21 02:59:00

Author:
Fishrock123
Posts: 1578

I thought the purpose of these tools was to make fun things simpler, not complex boring things.

It's fine if it's part of a game, but I just never saw the point of a calculator. I'd visit the level and look at all the switches and be like "wow". Then I'd try it out once... then leave the level because there's nothing else to do.		2010-08-21 03:17:00

Author:
Cheezy WEAPON
Posts: 283

I thought the purpose of these tools was to make fun things simpler, not complex boring things.

It's fine if it's part of a game, but I just never saw the point of a calculator. I'd visit the level and look at all the switches and be like "wow". Then I'd try it out once... then leave the level because there's nothing else to do.

Well if you look at the logic (by taking pictures off screen) of the creator in lbp, you will see he has huge pistons, dark matter and a bunch of magnet keys, all of which can be simplified to a circuit board in lbp2.

And a calculator is just to show off 		2010-08-21 03:48:00

Author:
Zmathue
Posts: 62

I thought the purpose of these tools was to make fun things simpler, not complex boring things.

It's fine if it's part of a game, but I just never saw the point of a calculator. I'd visit the level and look at all the switches and be like "wow". Then I'd try it out once... then leave the level because there's nothing else to do.


It is also possible (sort of) to sample a analogue (think speed) value with the new tools as well. Which is kewl.


I love this stuff


What the... Someone... finds this sort of thing... fun? Enjoys doing it? but... how can this be? My head! there's a feeling inside it! What is this?? A... picture, or some words... coming up... in my brain... in combinations heretofore unknown to me!

What? Different people have different tastes? What does that mean... I... Oh god, more pictures and words are showing up! I gotta go lay down for a while.		2010-08-21 05:35:00

Author:
Teebonesy
Posts: 1937

Duh. But with a computer you could in theory have more complex games.
Lols. I'm not sure what theory you're using here, but I can assure you it's wack


Well if you look at the logic (by taking pictures off screen) of the creator in lbp, you will see he has huge pistons, dark matter and a bunch of magnet keys, all of which can be simplified to a circuit board in lbp2.

And a calculator is just to show off

But that's the thing. Arguably upsilandre (for doing it first and so early) and hibbsi (for doing it so much better) both did something amazing by making a calculator out of tools that really don't lend themselves to the application. Their methods were custom and it required a large quantity of ingenuity to actually achieve the goal, within the thermo limitations and with those tools.

Microcontroller in LBP2 has none of what makes the calculators impressive. You have tools that are suited to the application, enough thermo to comfortably achieve it and absolutely no need for ingenuity to pull that off. That's why I say soulless. And I stick by that even after having slept off last night. All over the place people are banging on about making a microcontroller in LBP2 - it's like the holy grail or something. I just think it's a shame our "creative" community has set the bar so low for themselves. Hopefully someone will just get it over and done with so the community as a whole can get it out of their system and move on...

Building the popit for create in play mode is more interesting and the implementation of that would make for an interesting design challenge, even if it has already been done...

PS: On the other hand, building a microcontroller is an interesting learning exercise for anyone wishing to study digital electronics properly and hasn't ever done this sort of thing before.

PPS: I could go back and correct the spelling on my last post, but I'll leave it there as a warning against drunken posting. I think there should probably be a site rule against that, especially for mods, because alcohol + mod powers is one dangerous combination

PPPS: Teebs, I love you.

PPPPS: But not as much as I love logic. Or this guy -> He's awesome		2010-08-21 09:45:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Yoho i like how sarcastic this forum is
hmm but i for one know i won't make crazy hard logic in LBP2...

Hey has anyone made a working type writer?
i tryed and almost got it working but no it has bugs
and did not work out as i wanted... *mew
i just wanted a better way to make custom text, :I
it takes so long to spell everything by putting one
letter at a time when when putting words together. *mew		2010-08-21 09:56:00

Author:
Lord-Dreamerz
Posts: 4261

I feel very intimidated by all of these new tools right now...2010-08-21 11:27:00

Author:
Tawarf
Posts: 457

But with a computer you could in theory have more complex games, and possibly multiple games on one "computer".

Let me put it this way: in LBP (both 1 & 2) your logic is like hardware. All the ANDs and ORs etc. are things you would build in a chip in the real world. What you are suggesting is building a computer so you can write software on it. But the reason there is software in the real world, is that software is a lot cheaper to make than hardware. In LBP this is not true, so there really is no point in making a computer that runs software.

Of course, you could still do it for the educational value, to show off, or whatever.


I thought the purpose of these tools was to make fun things simpler, not complex boring things.

The wonderful thing about these tools is that they can do both. And what some people find boringly complex, others find exciting. And still others find it boringly soulless. 		2010-08-21 13:07:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

I feel very intimidated by all of these new tools right now...

I actually feel quite the opposite. I always have. I don't understand why people are so intimidated about these new tools or say that Mm are giving too much new tools for the community to handle, that makes no sense, just look at what the community produced with the tools that weren't designed for it. Because I mean, you're not required to actually use them if you don't want to. Mm aren't forcing you too. You could make Logic the LBP1 way if it suits you.

For me, I'm quite relieved by these tools. You don't know how I have to pound my head against the wall (not literary) just to push out a logic solution, I would always be like "why do i need 100 pistons with 1000 emitters for one thing!"		2010-08-21 13:13:00

Author:
PPp_Killer
Posts: 449

Lols. I'm not sure what theory you're using here, but I can assure you it's wack

Right. Since you probably know more than me, I stand corrected.


PPS: I could go back and correct the spelling on my last post, but I'll leave it there as a warning against drunken posting. I think there should probably be a site rule against that, especially for mods, because alcohol + mod powers is one dangerous combination

You should tell CC this.


Let me put it this way: in LBP (both 1 & 2) your logic is like hardware. All the ANDs and ORs etc. are things you would build in a chip in the real world. What you are suggesting is building a computer so you can write software on it. But the reason there is software in the real world, is that software is a lot cheaper to make than hardware. In LBP this is not true, so there really is no point in making a computer that runs software.

Of course, you could still do it for the educational value, to show off, or whatever.



The wonderful thing about these tools is that they can do both. And what some people find boringly complex, others find exciting. And still others find it boringly soulless.

Hey, I think it would be cool.


Maybe I should make a contest to inspire you guys...		2010-08-21 15:57:00

Author:
Fishrock123
Posts: 1578

Can.Not.COmpute.2010-08-21 16:04:00

Author:
Couchmuffin
Posts: 53

I actually feel quite the opposite. I always have. I don't understand why people are so intimidated about these new tools or say that Mm are giving too much new tools for the community to handle, that makes no sense, just look at what the community produced with the tools that weren't designed for it. Because I mean, you're not required to actually use them if you don't want to. Mm aren't forcing you too. You could make Logic the LBP1 way if it suits you.

For me, I'm quite relieved by these tools. You don't know how I have to pound my head against the wall (not literary) just to push out a logic solution, I would always be like "why do i need 100 pistons with 1000 emitters for one thing!"

Yeah i know how much a drag lbp1 logic is. Im just scared but very excited to learn new features!		2010-08-21 16:42:00

Author:
Tawarf
Posts: 457

Yeah i know how much a drag lbp1 logic is.

Well I'm assuming you find it a drag because it's tedious and time consuming to do simple tasks? Well that is one of the main things that the new tools aim to improve upon, and from what I've seen, they do a bloody good job at it. It's a lot quicker and less fiddly and generally less painful.		2010-08-21 16:51:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

I like how simple logic things like AND gates that might take 2 or 3 minutes to build in LBP1 are now simple tools so you don't need to put effort into making them. 2010-08-21 17:03:00

Author:
alexbull_uk
Posts: 1287

Hm... So, are we going to be seeing Computer Science courseware in LittleBigPlanet 2? Like a 10-level series equivalent to Comp-Sci 101? Teach us...

Teeeaaach uuus....		2010-08-21 23:28:00

Author:
Teebonesy
Posts: 1937

you think boring and i think that programming lBP must be boring... THe work is boring, the output is... magic. I work hard to design a complex computer in LBP2, and use it to controll a fun and intelegent lvl2010-08-22 00:12:00

Author:
poorjack
Posts: 1806

Stop arguing about whether logic is boring or not.
I can't imagine too many people are just going to build levels with ONLY computers in them. They can be put to some kind of practical gameplay use.		2010-08-22 00:27:00

Author:
Sack-Jake
Posts: 1153

well its not the most fun thing to make but its useful in levels !!!2010-08-22 00:35:00

Author:
HollieCat
Posts: 197

What the... Someone... finds this sort of thing... fun? Enjoys doing it? but... how can this be? My head! there's a feeling inside it! What is this?? A... picture, or some words... coming up... in my brain... in combinations heretofore unknown to me!

What? Different people have different tastes? What does that mean... I... Oh god, more pictures and words are showing up! I gotta go lay down for a while.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/cheezyweapon/Snapshots/sarcastalogicswitch.gif

hardy har har..

But seriously, I don't mind these levels. It's cool seeing the inner workings of these things. 		2010-08-22 01:42:00

Author:
Cheezy WEAPON
Posts: 283

i second that. It is fun to watch robots do stuff. you dont have to control the robots, you dont have to interact with them, it's simply fun because robots are cool tech2010-08-22 18:05:00

Author:
poorjack
Posts: 1806

Looking at it, I think he's just reproduced standard D-type flip-flop circuits that you'd find in any electronics textbook (look for the version derived from a T-type flip flop)*. On paper, I reckon I could drop the contents of each of those microchips down to 4 components (a counter, 2x 2input AND gates and a NOT gate). I believe** that would reduce the latency of the system but who knows which is the better solution thermo-wise.

I was wondering, since a D-type flip-flop is effectively just two D-type latches in a master-slave configuration in order to make it rising or falling edge-triggered, whether it would be possible somehow just to use a D-type latch with a one-shot input for the clock, which would halve the number of gates.

For the latency issue, I'm not even convinced there necessarily is any, and as for thermo, I suspect that a counter and a basic gate probably use about the same on the thermo. These things are so trivial from a simulation POV, that it's likely to be limited only by the game's ability to render them.

Also, for those who wish to brush up on their digital logic prior to LBP2's release, there's a rather handy logic simulation applet, with a number of examples, including a basic D-type flip-flop here (http://tams-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/applets/hades/webdemos/16-flipflops/20-dlatch/dff.html), but you may have to install the Java Runtime Environment before it'll work.		2010-08-22 19:17:00

Author:
Aya042
Posts: 2870

A sackboy looking switch.
YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!		2010-08-22 19:27:00

Author:
JspOt
Posts: 3607

WRT the one-shot input.... several of the logic devices don't consider the input to be of any type, it's just a data signal with a vale from -100% to 100%. Which is why the version I described required a pulse generator to avoid this.


For the latency issue, I'm not even convinced there necessarily is any

Don't really know what to say here. Latency exists in the new logic tools. There are exceptions I believe, but it's not a latency-free system and if it were it would be highly limited. I sharn't explain to you why again

Thermo wise, I found out earlier that when you close down the microchip the thermo drops "a heck of a lot". However, once you've copied something 100x or more, small changes in resource requirements do tend to make a difference 		2010-08-22 19:33:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

For the latency issue, I'm not even convinced there necessarily is any, and as for thermo, I suspect that a counter and a basic gate probably use about the same on the thermo. These things are so trivial from a simulation POV, that it's likely to be limited only by the game's ability to render them.

Well considering all logic should be placed on microchip (which is hidden in play mode) they should use no thermo at all, all the processing power that would be needed to transfer and use them in logical functions should be nothing compared to the processing power that is used to render and calculate the physics of a single wood block.		2010-08-22 19:45:00

Author:
Zmathue
Posts: 62

It's not zero thermo either...2010-08-22 19:52:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Latency exists in the new logic tools. There are exceptions I believe, but it's not a latency-free system and if it were it would be highly limited.

Strange, for two reasons:-


In the videos that gevurah22 posted, there didn't seem to be any obvious latency.
When I previously asked you if there was any latency, you said you weren't sure.


Did you actually do any testing, e.g. by hooking up a large number of gates in series and timing the result?

If so, what sort of latency times are we looking at, and if not, how were you able to determine there was any latency?



I sharn't explain to you why again

I think you have that the wrong way 'round.



Thermo wise, I found out earlier that when you close down the microchip the thermo drops "a heck of a lot".

Seems a little odd, but since it's still in beta, we won't know for certain what the final thermo rules will be.



Well considering all logic should be placed on microchip (which is hidden in play mode) they should use no thermo at all, all the processing power that would be needed to transfer and use them in logical functions should be nothing compared to the processing power that is used to render and calculate the physics of a single wood block

Well, indeed, but mag keys set to invisible in LBP1 use just as much thermo as visible ones, so I assumed the "worst-case" rule (i.e. that it won't let you create anything which won't simulate in Create Mode, even though the simulation is simpler in Play Mode) might also apply to LBP2.		2010-08-22 20:32:00

Author:
Aya042
Posts: 2870

Did you actually do any testing, e.g. by hooking up a large number of gates in series and timing the result?

If so, what sort of latency times are we looking at, and if not, how were you able to determine there was any latency?
Well, let's put it this way... in a feedback loop there is some latency. I don't know how much, but it's there, else you can't make a strobe out of an AND gate, and I did do that. I concede that potentially, there could be zero latency in circuits without feedback - there definitely is zero latency in a not gate, so maybe that is the case - the engine detects a loopback and adds a delay. It's more than possible for that to be a working solution, but there is no really evidence for it, it's just speculation and we'll get a spanking from schm0 if he catches us speculating in the News Forum.


Since it's still in beta, we won't know for certain what the final thermo rules will be. Until I have better information, I'll stick with the most up-to-date and reliable info I have, in this case, direct from the guy in charge of the thermo code Remember that the overall aim of the thermo in LBP2 is to be more dynamic and drop the "worst case scenario" calculation.		2010-08-22 20:58:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

I do know what a boolean variable is...but that's about it.

I thought he made that up...		2010-08-22 21:50:00

Author:
standby250
Posts: 1113

...we'll get a spanking from schm0 if he catches us speculating in the News Forum.

Good point. Let's just wait and see.



Remember that the overall aim of the thermo in LBP2 is to be more dynamic and drop the "worst case scenario" calculation.

Sure, but the implication is that, if opening up a microchip actually adds to the thermo, then you can't necessarily open up all your microchips at the same time. Still, that might be preferable to a 'worst-case' algorithm, but I can imagine it causing problems if you need to 'debug' your logic, and you don't have enough thermo left to open up any of your microchips. 		2010-08-22 21:52:00

Author:
Aya042
Posts: 2870

So we've established that the LBP2 electronics can make something ridiculously complex that very few people on LBPC seem to understand. Not bad, I guess. The real question is, can it make something similar to the human mind?
I challenge you MM, make a working brain with LBP2.
Then i'll be really impressed 		2010-08-22 22:01:00

Author:
Fish94
Posts: 554

So we've established that the LBP2 electronics can make something ridiculously complex that very few people on LBPC seem to understand. Not bad, I guess. The real question is, can it make something similar to the human mind?
I challenge you MM, make a working brain with LBP2.
Then i'll be really impressed

Now THAT, would be simply amazing. But I guess sackbots are for that anyways.		2010-08-22 22:24:00

Author:
eagerneph
Posts: 1536

Well, let's put it this way... in a feedback loop there is some latency. I don't know how much, but it's there, else you can't make a strobe out of an AND gate, and I did do that. I concede that potentially, there could be zero latency in circuits without feedback - there definitely is zero latency in a not gate, so maybe that is the case - the engine detects a loopback and adds a delay.

I assume this is what you did:
http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/5585/lollq.jpg
Now I don't no much about zero latency but I believe the output of the AND would still modulate. I think the light itself is what would be causing the strobe effect because I am sure it only samples it's input like once a frame, and there is a 50/50 chance that the input would be on or off at that frame.		2010-08-22 22:37:00

Author:
Zmathue
Posts: 62

So we've established that the LBP2 electronics can make something ridiculously complex that very few people on LBPC seem to understand. Not bad, I guess. The real question is, can it make something similar to the human mind?
I challenge you MM, make a working brain with LBP2.
Then i'll be really impressed

I think MM would rather see US make OUR brains work with what they've given us. As for boring logic, I for one am quite grateful to comph, rtm, aya, and others who have used their brains to give us the Logic Pack tools. I completed B double E, but I would have never come up with the idea of making such elegant pieces from dark matter, pistons, emitters, and mag switches. Thanks to these guys, there has been a major improvement in the quality of levels all across the board. If this is boring, I can't wait to see what they cook up in LBP2.		2010-08-22 23:25:00

Author:
thanatos989
Posts: 248

I think MM would rather see US make OUR brains work with what they've given us. As for boring logic, I for one am quite grateful to comph, rtm, aya, and others who have used their brains to give us the Logic Pack tools. I completed B double E, but I would have never come up with the idea of making such elegant pieces from dark matter, pistons, emitters, and mag switches. Thanks to these guys, there has been a major improvement in the quality of levels all across the board. If this is boring, I can't wait to see what they cook up in LBP2.
Lol watch rtm make a Atari on this or NES xD.		2010-08-22 23:30:00

Author:
mattman111
Posts: 188

Sure, but the implication is that, if opening up a microchip actually adds to the thermo, then you can't necessarily open up all your microchips at the same time. Still, that might be preferable to a 'worst-case' algorithm, but I can imagine it causing problems if you need to 'debug' your logic, and you don't have enough thermo left to open up any of your microchips.

The best solution (I think) to this would just to be to introduce some mediocre graphic versions of the switches. Or the simplest anyway.		2010-08-22 23:44:00

Author:
Fishrock123
Posts: 1578

@Zmathue: I think that would imply that the logic code would be running in a tight loop, with no consideration for synchronisation or determinism. For your example to make sense, the logic tools would be inherently unreliable and incredibly processor inefficient. I don't know exactly how the latency model works, but I honestly don't believe it's going to be in the way you describe. It also wouldn't be zero latency... it would be indeterminate latency, which is icky.

As I understand it, the issue aya describes might actually exist. In the same way that dynamic thermo on emitters is harder to manage, but enables us to create more, so would this. We are probably going to find ourselves creating with a self-imposed thermo buffer rather than maxxing out the thermo in create mode anyways after the new game comes out.		2010-08-23 10:42:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Wait, so... what?

Entire thread has gone over my head. 		2010-08-23 11:45:00

Author:
Ayneh
Posts: 2454

Wait, so... what?

Entire thread has gone over my head.

Computer stuff, Ayneh, computer stuff.		2010-08-23 16:48:00

Author:
poorjack
Posts: 1806

Really glad i found this thread!! I had been mucking about with flip-flops and multiplexers etc. on LBP aswell. Had published my handiwork please look up my id on LBP 'roopi67' an i will be interested in what rtm223 and comphermc think of it? it's a hex counter and it's got latency galore lol, i could have made it more efficient but i was trying to be pure in the electronics logic sense if you know what i mean. Used pistons and mag switches but cheated when it came to the clock generator, got lazy
please ignore the other levels they were done by my nephew lol		2010-08-23 18:33:00

Author:
roops67
Posts: 8

it's a hex counter and it's got latency galore lol, i could have made it more efficient but i was trying to be pure in the electronics logic sense if you know what i mean.

If latency is an issue, you might be interested in my zero-latency switches thread (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=23400-Zero-Latency-Set-Reset-and-Toggle-Switch).		2010-08-23 18:52:00

Author:
Aya042
Posts: 2870

If latency is an issue, you might be interested in my zero-latency switches thread (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=23400-Zero-Latency-Set-Reset-and-Toggle-Switch).

hey thanks buddy, will do! looks interesting! an your favourite number is 42, the answer to life the universe and everything, whats the question? maybe make a computer in lbp2 to find the question 		2010-08-23 19:29:00

Author:
roops67
Posts: 8

Sooo, Who wants to create LBPs first ingame computer?

maybe a giant box with punchcard slots.. :3		2010-08-23 23:32:00

Author:
mattbru77
Posts: 143

wow i'm just a typical grade 12 kid, and i only took one computer science class. Am i gonna be screwed over trying to create great levels?2010-08-23 23:55:00

Author:
Strodigy
Posts: 124

wow i'm just a typical grade 12 kid, and i only took one computer science class. Am i gonna be screwed over trying to create great levels?

No not at all! Lol, I never took any computer science courses, I'm an art student for goodness sakes! The logic system in LBP2 makes it even easier to do complicated logic if you ask me. Just build what you're good at and I'm sure you'll do some fantastic stuff!

Wait, so you live in Toronto? What school do you go to if you don't mind me asking? I just graduated from Leaside High off Bayview and Eglington. I'm going to Guelph in September! 		2010-08-24 00:03:00

Author:
FULLGORR
Posts: 245

Sooo, Who wants to create LBPs first ingame computer?

maybe a giant box with punchcard slots.. :3
Shhh.... don't tell them my plans		2010-08-24 01:06:00

Author:
Zmathue
Posts: 62

You know... Punchcard reader could be done with some holograph and collision switches 2010-08-24 01:08:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

maybe make a computer in lbp2 to find the question

I thought we already lived on that computer. Let's hope the Vogons don't build that planned hyperspace bypass.



Sooo, Who wants to create LBPs first ingame computer?

There's a creator by the name of "rymdisen" IIRC who's already built a working 8-bit CPU (albeit very limited) in LBP1. It has three registers, a data bus, a full adder, and a program controller, and calculates the Fibonacci sequence. Not particularly useful, but quite interesting IMO.		2010-08-24 12:36:00

Author:
Aya042
Posts: 2870

What I wish is that there was a "player aware switch". In other words (NOT a sensor switch!), it would "remember" its (level specific) imput. That way, in addition to actually programing my own little games, these games could save, as well. Think: you could customize a character in an RPG-type level. If you left the level and came back, your character (and experience you earned) would not be lost!

Anyway, do any of the more logic-savvy players here know if something like that is in the game?

If not, I'm pretty sure it would be impossible to just build...		2010-08-24 12:56:00

Author:
Stoicrow
Posts: 276

Working computer?
Nah,too easy.
Im going for a brain.
Though I don't quite understand all this here modern day logic
Guess i'll have to catch up for not playing LBP for a year
To the logic threads!		2010-08-24 13:26:00

Author:
Bremnen
Posts: 1800

What I wish is that there was a "player aware switch". In other words (NOT a sensor switch!), it would "remember" its (level specific) imput. That way, in addition to actually programing my own little games, these games could save, as well. Think: you could customize a character in an RPG-type level. If you left the level and came back, your character (and experience you earned) would not be lost!

Anyway, do any of the more logic-savvy players here know if something like that is in the game?

I suggested someone ask Mm this question at the Eurogamer Expo fan meet, but Rtm already knew the answer: No, there isn't. (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=31352-LBP2-Coming-to-the-EuroGamer-Expo&p=588857&viewfull=1#post588857) So we're still stuck with stickers. 		2010-08-24 13:31:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

Working computer?
Nah,too easy.
Im going for a brain.

I'm unsure whether those of you talking about creating a brain in LBP2 are joking or not, but after reading this quoted post, I've been thinking hard and I'm almost 100% sure that an Artificial Neural Network is possible to create. Not only that, but you could also introduce training mechanisms into it - you could create a brain that is capable of learning.

Now, how's that for a slice of fried gold?		2010-08-24 13:41:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

I'm unsure whether those of you talking about creating a brain in LBP2 are joking or not, but after reading this quoted post, I've been thinking hard and I'm almost 100% sure that an Artificial Neural Network is possible to create. Not only that, but you could also introduce training mechanisms into it - you could create a brain that is capable of learning.

Now, how's that for a slice of fried gold?

Here's the deal; you make a working brain that can learn, and in return we will revere you as a deity for all eternity.
Sound fair? 		2010-08-24 14:20:00

Author:
Fish94
Posts: 554

I'm almost 100% sure that an Artificial Neural Network is possible to create. Not only that, but you could also introduce training mechanisms into it - you could create a brain that is capable of learning.

I figured the same, although whether you'd be able to have a sufficient number of neurons to actually accomplish anything practical is another matter.		2010-08-24 15:08:00

Author:
Aya042
Posts: 2870

I figured the same, although whether you'd be able to have a sufficient number of neurons to actually accomplish anything practical is another matter.

Try *well* over 50,000? Lol.		2010-08-24 15:25:00

Author:
Fishrock123
Posts: 1578

I figured the same, although whether you'd be able to have a sufficient number of neurons to actually accomplish anything practical is another matter.

Ummmm, you'd want somewhere in the low hundreds realistically. As each neuron isn't exactly complex (a few analogue calculations), I'd say it's every bit as feasible as a microprocessor.


Of course, it's not a brain, but then no-one has ever made an ANN that actually comes close to the complexity of a brain (you're about 6 orders of magnitude off for a human fishrock ).		2010-08-24 15:42:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Mosly a brain, yes.
I was thinking having it recognise things around it and react, 'calculate', things like thats. Learning? Hah, if you can accomplish that..wait..
*starts thinking*...
Well learning may be possible but surely it wouldn't be able to learn to speak, which would be one of the hardest..things...to..
LBP TIME! :O

so...many..thoughts..so..much...LOGIC..*splodes*		2010-08-24 16:25:00

Author:
Bremnen
Posts: 1800

Ummmm, you'd want somewhere in the low hundreds realistically. As each neuron isn't exactly complex (a few analogue calculations), I'd say it's every bit as feasible as a microprocessor.

Perhaps (too lazy to go read my book on the subject), but I still can't think of any practical applications, due to the limitations of the possible input devices.		2010-08-24 16:54:00

Author:
Aya042
Posts: 2870

Yeah, all I can think of is predicting movement, and you'd probably be better off with a rule-based AI.

The interesting challenge IMHO is: can you do it in LBP1? 		2010-08-24 17:07:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

Yeah, all I can think of is predicting movement, and you'd probably be better off with a rule-based AI.

The interesting challenge IMHO is: can you do it in LBP1?

I can think of ways to do basic A.I in LBP1 but the scale of complexity i want, isn't.		2010-08-24 17:17:00

Author:
Bremnen
Posts: 1800

Alright, you lot can stop planning your LBP2 neural nets! I made a weighted sum in LBP1, now it's just a matter of the learning bit. So, QED, next challenge! 2010-08-24 21:36:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

Hmmm... Have I just killed this thread?

Yes, yes you did . Oh and Cool circuit board, it would have tooken a while for me in LBP.		2010-08-26 05:57:00

Author:
Unknown User

Iseen nodes, squery wires, and even color wires... suggestion forums come true


I'm unsure whether those of you talking about creating a brain in LBP2 are joking or not, but after reading this quoted post, I've been thinking hard and I'm almost 100% sure that an Artificial Neural Network is possible to create. Not only that, but you could also introduce training mechanisms into it - you could create a brain that is capable of learning.

Now, how's that for a slice of fried gold?

Well you go all that logic circuitry have, you can bring any logic schematics to life in LBP2, so it theory if you find any schematics allowing that you could do this, bigger problem is outputing

I'm sure we will find simple 8-bit CPUs in LBP2, like Z80 ^^		2010-08-27 15:43:00

Author:
Shadowriver
Posts: 3991

The new one is just crazy. O_O

http://www.mediamolecule.com/images/uploads/emailsfromthemolecule-john-1-lrg.jpg
http://www.mediamolecule.com/blog/article/emails_from_the_molecule_help/ (http://www.mediamolecule.com/images/uploads/emailsfromthemolecule-john-1-lrg.jpg)		2010-08-29 03:22:00

Author:
Snappyguy
Posts: 710

The new one is just crazy. O_O

http://www.mediamolecule.com/images/uploads/emailsfromthemolecule-john-1-lrg.jpg
http://www.mediamolecule.com/blog/article/emails_from_the_molecule_help/ (http://www.mediamolecule.com/images/uploads/emailsfromthemolecule-john-1-lrg.jpg)
Lol Seeing this makes me think Rtm is going to go crazy with these tools and make a PS1 in game or something else of that nature.		2010-08-29 19:07:00

Author:
mattman111
Posts: 188

The new one is just crazy. O_O

Belive me, thats far from craziness compare to how LBP1 logic look like that looks like green wire mess, near ending of my level i sometimes forget how some parts of logic actually works. Here atleast you got everything in order, and looks lice and clean, nodes and squery wire stricture will make circuits more readable, you can device circut in to segments using microchips and you won't lost in your own work.

And i'm sure people will start to make logic circuits modules in form of distributed microchips for proper functions, it will make logic more easier to implement for newbies		2010-08-29 21:38:00

Author:
Shadowriver
Posts: 3991

How about: you guys create a calculator capable of handeling variables. (ie: graphing calculator)

im going into algerbra 2, and this homework wont do itself!		2010-08-30 08:44:00

Author:
mattbru77
Posts: 143

How about: you guys create a calculator capable of handeling variables. (ie: graphing calculator)

im going into algerbra 2, and this homework wont do itself!

You don't need LBP for that ;]		2010-08-30 14:58:00

Author:
Shadowriver
Posts: 3991

You don't need LBP for that ;]

Yeah, but why not just use LBP2 because you can? Besides, who bothers actually working it out, the internet is here for a reason


The new one is just crazy. O_O

http://www.mediamolecule.com/images/uploads/emailsfromthemolecule-john-1-lrg.jpg
http://www.mediamolecule.com/blog/article/emails_from_the_molecule_help/ (http://www.mediamolecule.com/images/uploads/emailsfromthemolecule-john-1-lrg.jpg)

All that. So little thermo. Want. Now 		2010-08-30 18:55:00

Author:
kirbyman62
Posts: 1893

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/2187/lbp2codebreakdown2.jpg

My fantastical breakdown.		2010-08-30 19:03:00

Author:
BasketSnake
Posts: 2391

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/2187/lbp2codebreakdown2.jpg

My fantastical breakdown.

Hehe! Funny, but almost believable... Well... not really... 		2010-08-30 19:24:00

Author:
piggabling
Posts: 2979

I want people to build a computer with an editor so that you can create in playmode. Even better...an editor that allows you to CREATE an editor.2010-08-30 19:53:00

Author:
BasketSnake
Posts: 2391

Mm is already making an editor that allows you to create an editor. It's called create mode.

What's the point of creating in play mode anyway? All your work will be gone once you leave the level.		2010-08-31 13:37:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

You can kind of "half-create" with the creatinator in play mode. Plop down a few different ones that provide different material blocks, and you could make some sort of thing out of blocks... :/2010-08-31 14:18:00

Author:
piggabling
Posts: 2979

O_o really mind blowing!!!!!!!2010-09-02 13:39:00

Author:
Lgjoka2002
Posts: 538

It's great that they are including such powerful creation tools in LBP2 - but if the level designers themselves are getting lost in it, then what hope for the novices?!2010-09-02 15:49:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

We have the brainpower of thousands! 2010-09-02 16:15:00

Author:
Snappyguy
Posts: 710

wait...

so if you connect the button to the 11th key and over to the 5b bit that's connected to the 4th key to the right and then pull lever 1, 6 and 4 connect em up with key 23th and remove the 9b bit to add a randomizer and connect the 2th key to it and connect the randomizer to the 5th key, 3b bit and the 19th key and connect those with the 21th key that remotes a 3-way switch that activates 48th key and the 5b bit you'll get...

http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y363/az_za-/pilesofcircuitboards.jpg

piles of circuit boards...		2010-09-04 21:02:00

Author:
>er.
Posts: 785

It's going to take me a LONG time to get my head around all this new logic! LBP1 's logic is visual and fairly easy to figure out so far!

I'm sure I'll get the hang of it eventually! Though maybe not to the extent of the image Snappyguy posted!!		2010-09-04 21:09:00

Author:
Weretigr
Posts: 2105


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