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#1

The Music Editor

Archive: 67 posts

Well, it's been announced. In the lastest trailer, (for a few seconds) the music editor was shown, and man does it look good.

Now, I paused the trailer and took two pictures for a close look at what we will be dealing with:

http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy247/CogSpartan/lbp2_musiceditor1.png

http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy247/CogSpartan/lbp2_musiceditor2.png

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2010/08/lbpmusic.jpg

Here's a video showing it off!: http://gamescom.gamespot.com/video/6274015/

So, what do you think?

EDIT: New Joystiq interview on the Music Editor: (Thanks to robotiod) http://www.joystiq.com/2010/08/19/media-molecule-reveals-littlebigplanet-2s-more-than-just-music/		2010-08-17 20:55:00

Author:
Kog
Posts: 2358

I think I need to find me some musically inclined friends. 2010-08-17 21:06:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

This will be "Teh Epicness"2010-08-17 21:19:00

Author:
Alec
Posts: 3871

I have some ideas on this.
You select the music box (the LBP1 looking speaker in the first picture)
The first menu appears.
Here you can select the instrument type used.
Then you can tweak each note via the secondary menu (lower pic)
Here you choose which note it is and it's duration and whether or not it changes midway (the lines that crossover)

Presumably the options are volume and others and the Visuals make different notes easier to keep track of.

Any one want to add to this, or change?		2010-08-17 21:19:00

Author:
Jedi_1993
Posts: 1518

I'd say you're pretty much correct. I expect the blocks in the first picture are moveable and copyable, so you can arrange your music piece by piece.2010-08-17 21:25:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

Alright. Lemme get to work breaking down these images.

- The notes are on a material with notes on it. Probably a special material kind of like circuit boards. (EDIT: Yup, I see that it expanded out of one of those music players. So you can drag and drop a blank music box, make your own music, than save it in the menu.)

- Each note can be expanded into the editor. I think that that one note is containing the tune in the bottom picture, which means that it's condensed music waaay more.

- Holy crap that's a lot of colours to choose from for the notes. I'm pretty sure that that's organizational, and that the colour doesn't have an actual effect on anything.

- Not sure what the piano keys on the very right of the first image is for.

- Controls;
+Instrument
+Volume
+Left/right speaker balance
+Not sure
+Not sure
+You can change the scale of the music
+You can change the key of the music
+You can change the colour of the note

- It looks like each note object plays like Mario Paint, ala a bar goes across the top and plays each note it crosses.

- Individual notes (within the note object) can be any length, and can change pitch during.

I'll add more if I find it.

Sheesh, I should make a breakdown with all this.		2010-08-17 21:28:00

Author:
Moony
Posts: 368

I'm betting this is going to lead to people who just make music, and then people hire them to make music for their level.

I know some musically talented people, so I'll probably be seeing if they can make stuff for me 		2010-08-17 21:32:00

Author:
Kog
Posts: 2358

If you pause at the right time, you can see the third option is Echo Send and the fourth is Echo Reverb. I'm not an expert, but I think that's synthesizer stuff.


- Holy crap that's a lot of colours to choose from for the notes. I'm pretty sure that that's organizational, and that the colour doesn't have an actual effect on anything.

- Not sure what the piano keys on the very right of the first image is for.

The colour might have an effect on the look of the music object in the level. You know, lights flashing to the tune?

I think the piano image just shows what type of instrument is connected to that particular music block, so you don't have to open the second menu to see.		2010-08-17 21:45:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

This looks very useful indeed.2010-08-17 22:09:00

Author:
Radishlord
Posts: 706

This looks to work very much like GarageBand. Just as Moony said, and just like a microchip, the boom box can expand and a circuit-board-esque material is opened. However, it looks to me like there are actual tracks built in, to allow for easy organisation of your music. Each music block looks like a non-physical object much like one of the new logic gates, and each block, as made evident with the Popit, looks to contain a series of notes, not just one. I would think they can be copied and pasted (say, you made a full bar of a drum beat, this could be repeated throughout your song).

Being experienced in GarageBand and having made many musical compositions with it for professional projects, I can safely say that this music editor is advanced enough to sate ANY LBP1-music-maker's hunger, whilst making the whole process ten times easier.		2010-08-17 22:22:00

Author:
Holguin86
Posts: 875

I think the two unknown slider/speakers (3rd and 4th from the top) might be bass and treble controls. Frequency tuning and what not. so you could make some bassy synths without using really really low notes.

nvm. video clearly shows echo send and reverb send.		2010-08-17 22:47:00

Author:
MobiusDT
Posts: 89

So are you guys saying you have to individually place every note via those blocks? That's sounds like it would take years to make a piece of music for a level!2010-08-17 23:05:00

Author:
foobfighters
Posts: 16

Well - now we know that pitch-perfect recreations of all the classic Mario tunes will be built and shared to everyone within the first three days.


Good to know I suppose! :hero:		2010-08-17 23:25:00

Author:
Tig-W
Posts: 106

well im doing btec music so this should'nt be a problem after a month2010-08-17 23:37:00

Author:
psnGK22
Posts: 18

So are you guys saying you have to individually place every note via those blocks? That's sounds like it would take years to make a piece of music for a level!


you don't place them individually by block. you make a pattern in that 2nd picture, then sequence them in that first picture.		2010-08-17 23:50:00

Author:
MobiusDT
Posts: 89

@Cog

Everything I hoped for and more 		2010-08-17 23:56:00

Author:
TheJollyRajah
Posts: 466



I can't wait to get my hands on this game and get to work

but I'm going to have to study and learn about music (since i'm not a musician )
I can't half it and do the same stuff I did in LBP1, I got to do better with the new tool

i have ideas for what i want to do, i can't wait to put it in action 		2010-08-18 00:03:00

Author:
TheManofSteel3kO
Posts: 74

It looks very interesting. It won't help me at all because I can't read music but it looks like it should be much easier for people who do.2010-08-18 00:08:00

Author:
mistervista
Posts: 2210

You can still easily cobble together a tune even if you have no musical experience. Especially since this has nothing to do with reading music.2010-08-18 00:11:00

Author:
Moony
Posts: 368

I don't think you need to read music to use this. I used to play a little with music maker programs, they weren't that difficult, and this looks even more userfriendly. I think it will be easy to make a composition.

The tricky part will be to make a good composition, that's where the musical talent comes in. 		2010-08-18 00:14:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

this looks a bit like hobnox audio tool, but more indepth.2010-08-18 00:54:00

Author:
poorjack
Posts: 1806

This will be amazing! No more hearing the same music tracks over and over again if people use this! Hopefully it isn't too confusing to use though.2010-08-18 00:57:00

Author:
eagerneph
Posts: 1536

I'm guessing you put down a block (for one instrument maybe), open it up into the second window and make your little tune, then place it in the track and slowly make more (copy and paste it, tweaking them). You can layer it on the tracks depending on how many instruments you want to hear simultaneously. Whether its a solo ditty or a whole orchestra.

I'm betting there's something that makes the tracks loop too.

I just hope they instruments don't sound so tinny and flat, like banging pots and pans in a small cabinet. All the current custom songs now sound so.. fake. Everything except the piano..		2010-08-18 02:24:00

Author:
Cheezy WEAPON
Posts: 283

Somehow I don't think they'd force us to use tinny instruments.

Good instrument sounds aren't that hard to come by.		2010-08-18 03:53:00

Author:
Moony
Posts: 368

This looks awesome...I should start writing the music now...oh well, I'll get to it eventually. I can already tell I will be spending a lot of time with this tool.2010-08-18 04:05:00

Author:
Unknown User

one of the problems i had with the first game... music. They could never suit my level. Glad we can make our own easy now.2010-08-18 04:37:00

Author:
PPp_Killer
Posts: 449

I just realised there's a bit of a downside here. Players will come to expect custom music, which means more work for creators. And up till now I thought LBP2 was going to save me time... 2010-08-18 10:30:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

I just realised there's a bit of a downside here. Players will come to expect custom music, which means more work for creators. And up till now I thought LBP2 was going to save me time...

eh..,I'll understand if a level doesn't have custom music, but if it does it's a bonus! 		2010-08-18 10:39:00

Author:
Unknown User

Well I was never really too excited about music editor when it was mostly speculation. I have to say, though, this does look very cool and I can't wait to give it a spin.2010-08-18 11:02:00

Author:
SR20DETDOG
Posts: 2431

For those of you who are worried about having to compose every note, I wouldn't worry. I'm sure LBP2 will come with a Selection of "duplo" loops that you can mix and match to make a song. Aslo, I'm sure that many creators will be happy to create bits, pieces and parts to help out the speed-minded little-big-producer.

The second, larger picture looks like a piano roll. Basically it works like a music box. That's good for people who aren't comfortable using a Grand staff. Looks like it allows you to (slur) notes together.
(a slur is when you shift the pitch in mid note, rather thand starting a new note.)

While I was watching the Video, I noticed a couple of things:
Effects send- (reverb and delay) leads me to believe that there is a page for master levels and over all effects. Possibly even effect parameters. The thing about using a send is, it implys that all instruments share effects. for example if you have the reverb set to a long decay , all instruments that use it will have a long reverb.

Scale &key in the video, the key parameters flashed through "chromatic" and "Major" My guess is that "Chromatic" Will allow the notes to play as is, While The other settings will transpose into a certain key/chord depending on the setting. What's interesting to me here, is that music on this page is not written in the key of C. it's in A, So that might mean that it's transposing on the fly ala casio.

It looks to me like the gradation of color on the notes means somthing. Volume, Perhaps?

I think you are right about the first pic. I looks like a master loop schedule. it looks like the rows are instruments, and color is for individual note or sequence patterns. What I'm hoping, is that we will be able to clone note patterns to different instruments by placing that pattern in a different track.


since in the video this opens from a yellow tab, and the yellow color is selected under visuals, I think it's a safe guess that the visuals have to do with loop organisation, and not individual notes. I'm not seeing any loop names. I hope that it's not just down to color to ID your patterns!

I'll transcribe this snippit, and post later.
___edit___

Okay, here's what I got from the second picture...The notes are accurite accurate ( more than I can say for my typing ), but who knows what type of sound they were using.
Also, it's only the first bit. The rest is just me having some fun.
http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/356368

-edit #2-

Arrugh! *slaps forehead* how stupid am I?
I just realized what the tune is. This screen shot leaves off most of the first note in the bar. it's actually part of what's playing on the trailer. lol
on my version the melody is sped up a little, and moved forward to the beat.
heck with it. I've never tried to transcribe from a screenshot of a game piano roll before, anyway. hahaha!		2010-08-18 16:40:00

Author:
swanbrown
Posts: 898

Oooh, look at all those fancy words, an expert at last!

I have another theory on the scale. Chromatic means you get to use all 12 notes, maybe major (and I'm sure there's a minor, too) will only let you pick from 7 notes, to help noobs (like me) keep it in harmony.

Would loop names be that important? I'd just play the loop in a... uhm.. loop, when selected.		2010-08-18 17:14:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

It REALLY does look good. You have that piano thing to place the notes + effects on them and the other screen to do your sequences.

It clearly looks like a sequencer/tracker. I am in HEAVEN. This pushes LBP2 WAY FREAKING FURTHER into the world of creativity than LBP1. Believe me.
And since the sound samples are on the disk, it will take quite nothing it matter of thermo. Most probably the same thermo space as the regular LBP radios.

Just imagine the picture. With sackbots, linked level and this music editor, I will finally be able to make ENTIRELY custom levels and adventures. I am speechless. This is the GOTY right there. And probably the GOTF.

.		2010-08-18 17:20:00

Author:
RangerZero
Posts: 3901

Game of the Future?

With this new gizmo, I can make custom tracks for my levels! Which means no more Get it Together in every level...

:SH:		2010-08-18 17:26:00

Author:
ThePineapplizer
Posts: 769

I'm going to make a level called "100 COLOR JUMPS WITH SHARKS" and publish it copyable. Make it so that you fall onto a shared music box with my custom made "Never gonna give you up". This way it'll be easy for people to share it. I'll also hack the game so that the tune spreads throughout the world with no way to stop it.2010-08-18 17:57:00

Author:
BasketSnake
Posts: 2391

So... does this mean we can remake GaGa tracks? :o2010-08-18 18:20:00

Author:
Splash
Posts: 102

And since the sound samples are on the disk, it will take quite nothing it matter of thermo. Most probably the same thermo space as the regular LBP radios.

There is an internal limitation on the amount you can get into a track, but it is very close to thermoless, in the eyes of the level. And as the sequences themselves are loaded into memory as needed, I guess that you can have several (not sure though). Anyways, take that select switch with millions of outputs!		2010-08-18 18:27:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Take that select switch with millions of outputs!

Say Hello to music boxes with insane complexity! XD		2010-08-18 18:30:00

Author:
Fishrock123
Posts: 1578

the music editor is a huge improvement in lbp 2 .2010-08-18 18:47:00

Author:
Beyunn
Posts: 27

Wow, they are making it almost like LMMS. Cool.
Some examples of what LMMS can do (http://lmms.sourceforge.net/demos.php).

Also,

And probably the GOTF.
GOTF?		2010-08-18 18:50:00

Author:
Super_Dork_42
Posts: 1874

The music editor intimidates me. Yet, the funny thing about it is that that intimidation makes me wanna try to make music in this game even if I don't know how.2010-08-18 18:54:00

Author:
siberian_ninja15
Posts: 444

The music editor intimidates me. Yet, the funny thing about it is that that intimidation makes me wanna try to make music in this game even if I don't know how.

Agreed, I'm already looking for the music for Spyro!		2010-08-18 19:18:00

Author:
Jedi_1993
Posts: 1518

Now we just need an option to make everything in sloooooow motion, make a sackbot run... then have someone recreate this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYJzcUvS_NU) to it.
That would make a great trailer for LBP2 		2010-08-18 19:41:00

Author:
napero7
Posts: 1653

Wow, they are making it almost like LMMS. Cool.
Some examples of what LMMS can do (http://lmms.sourceforge.net/demos.php).

Also,

GOTF?

I wasn't sure what you meant by LMMS, I JUST started getting into Linux (ubuntu studio is probably what I'll end up using). The LBP2 music editor does seem pretty powerful, and plenty flexible. I'd love to get an idea of what built in sounds there are, and then to combine this with the ability to record your own sounds. Seeing as my computer is less than powerful I might be better served by this than what I have been using (FL Studio and Ableton Live) just because it won't be all stuttery constantly.

also (G)ame (O)f (T)he (F)orever or (F)uture. depends on who you ask, basically the same thing.		2010-08-18 19:45:00

Author:
MobiusDT
Posts: 89

Now we just need an option to make everything in sloooooow motion, make a sackbot run... then have someone recreate this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYJzcUvS_NU) to it.
That would make a great trailer for LBP2

There is an option for altering the speed of sackbots...
Would make for a hilarious level!		2010-08-18 19:47:00

Author:
Jedi_1993
Posts: 1518

...Would loop names be that important? I'd just play the loop in a... uhm.. loop, when selected.

Well, if your music track is just going to be a beat and a base line looped over and over, You're right, there's no real need to name your loops.
On the other hand, if you song has multiple verses, a bridge, chorus, and variations to the parts, you are looking at a grip of little colored boxes, and you may not remember that the lime green one is the baseline for the first part, while the forest green one is a base boost for the lead. especially if put a piece of music down for a while.		2010-08-18 19:58:00

Author:
swanbrown
Posts: 898

Looks Amazing!! The whole "piano roll" thing kinda reminds me of FL studio's piano roll.

Goodness I SOOO hope I get into the beta!!! '

I can't wait till November!!!! ****** why won't time go faster?!!!

Edit:

If this is anything like FL studio or Pro Tools, then I can assume the following:

- From the looks of it, the first pick is a playlist, where you can organize specific loops into sequence to make the song.
- The 2nd pic shows how you can make loops using a piano roll "MIDI" method. (It would be epic if you could somehow plug in your piano and actually record your music.)
- I'm guessing you can add basic effects like reverb, delays, fade in and fade out, etc. Maybe even an Equalizer perhaps?
I hope they allow us to record external sounds the same way we can record our voices for cutscences.

From the looks of it, it looks a lot like FL Studio. Wonder what sample sounds they'll give us? I think they can probably add sounds too through DLC. That would be so awesome! Just give me an awesome orchestral and drum set and I'm good to go.



Man...all this for the price of 60 bucks...MM is being ripped off. 		2010-08-18 20:06:00

Author:
comishguy67
Posts: 849

Since making music will probably be a requirement for having a level that stands out it'll also take more time since you'll want a nice music track/s to go with it.2010-08-18 20:19:00

Author:
BasketSnake
Posts: 2391

Man...all this for the price of 60 bucks...MM is being ripped off.

Hehe... that's going in my signature.		2010-08-18 20:41:00

Author:
Moony
Posts: 368

Well, if your music track is just going to be a beat and a base line looped over and over, You're right, there's no real need to name your loops.
On the other hand, if you song has multiple verses, a bridge, chorus, and variations to the parts, you are looking at a grip of little colored boxes, and you may not remember that the lime green one is the baseline for the first part, while the forest green one is a base boost for the lead. especially if put a piece of music down for a while.

Ah, well, I was assuming that each line or row contains only one instrument, and that instrument pops up when you select the row (you can see the piano in one of the screen shots). If you can have a new instrument for each block, like you're saying, then things would get a lot harder to find without labels, true.		2010-08-18 22:14:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

I believe that you can put sticky note-like labels on anything.2010-08-18 22:45:00

Author:
Moony
Posts: 368

lol guys

GOTF = game of the forever 		2010-08-18 23:27:00

Author:
RangerZero
Posts: 3901

HO-LEEY ****. WHAT IS THAT?

WHAT THE HELL IS THAT?
------------------------------

That was my reaction.


AWSOME! A SEQUENCER!! MULTIPLE TRACKS

guitar synth anyone?		2010-08-18 23:51:00

Author:
mattbru77
Posts: 143

I wonder if we'll be able to have the music audible from anywhere in the level in the same way the Mm music boxes work ? I hope so because at the moment it's very difficult to do.2010-08-19 00:02:00

Author:
mistervista
Posts: 2210

I wonder if we'll be able to have the music audible from anywhere in the level in the same way the Mm music boxes work ? I hope so because at the moment it's very difficult to do.

I'd hope that is a given. Remember they have added that option to basic sounds anyway and the new music tools are supposed to be a proper alternative to using a music box.		2010-08-19 01:08:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

>.< Now I gotta one-up everyone else by writing my own music instead of copying sheet music. ;D I'm sure most people don't know how to even read music...so...I've got a head start. lol Music is my one talent in LBP right now (I'm fairly decent at just about everything else except gameplay features). I nearly cried when I saw the, what I like to call, "The Composinator". Oh it looks so fantastic. The whole piano roll thing makes me think of FL Studios right off the bat. Can't wait any longer.

>.< If Mm gave me the ability to beta test JUST the music editor, I'd play non-stop until the beta ends (well...aside from 3 hours of sleep per day and food and other human needs).		2010-08-19 02:35:00

Author:
AeroForce22
Posts: 392

Here's an idea...

What if LBP2's intMusic is fully compatible with the editor? So you could remix it! Instead of just adjusting the volume of certain track, you could change the instrument, timings, reverb, anything!

Oh, and I think it looks most like GarageBand. Even the font of the pop-up messages is the same (or very similar).		2010-08-19 03:14:00

Author:
alexbull_uk
Posts: 1287

GOD this is so beautiful and it's just what i always wanted....

now lets hope some of our LBP musicians make a big comeback with LBP2 (yeah im lookin at you KornDawg )		2010-08-19 04:16:00

Author:
Shadowcrazy
Posts: 3365

I really hope this has volume control on a per-track basis, so you can dynamically mix the music in sync with the action of the level...2010-08-19 13:08:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

The second picture suggests there's volume control per music block, so looks like you will get your wish. 2010-08-19 13:13:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

Joystiq reports. http://www.joystiq.com/2010/08/19/media-molecule-reveals-littlebigplanet-2s-more-than-just-music/

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2010/08/lbpmusic.jpg

The demo of LittleBigPlanet 2 that was shown at Cologne's Gamescom this week was similar to the build shown off to great effect at E3 a few months ago. But there was one significant level-editing feature that was being demonstrated for the first time here: a music sequencer that's also quite a bit more.

LittleBigPlanet 2 Technical Director Alex Evans demonstrated the sequencer, which lets you arrange notes on a four-measure grid with the beat at the bottom and multiple octaves of notes running vertically. You choose from a selection of instrument samples including a honky tonk piano, acoustic guitar, drum kit, beatbox, and roughly 30 more that were shown in the demo (more are expected for the final game, Evans said). Notes can be built into samples, which can then be repeated and mixed further via a larger timeline object in the level creation screen.
But this new timeline feature can do a lot more than just music. Elements from a level can be linked to it as well, allowing creators to sync in-game events much more easily than they could in the original LittleBigPlanet. Evans showed a simple example where a block burst into flames just as the bass drum beat came in on the background music.

Level creators have already figured out some incredibly robust uses for this new feature. Evans showed off the innards of an entire top-down racing game, where each section of track was actually actually tied to a timeline scrolling down the screen. This innovative use of the timeline feature was actually discovered by a prolific LittleBigPlanet level creator that the team brought in to design story levels for the sequel.

Evans said he's always gratified when the community "takes building blocks that we have and then uses them in ways we hadn't thought of at all." The LittleBigPlanet team is also reaping the rewards of this new feature; Evans said his designers have complained that, if they had this feature more recently than a month ago, then certain events would have taken "20 minutes to build instead of a day."		2010-08-19 13:25:00

Author:
robotiod
Posts: 2662

This is going to be so super-awesome for my "Create Your Own Music Mixer" follow up to my Magical Musical Workshop level;

But from the sounds of it... the controls are that comprehensive that it may be surplus to requirements 		2010-08-19 15:55:00

Author:
Macnme
Posts: 1970

I had a bit of trouble finding the trailor so, for the people who haven't seen it, heres the link:
http://gamevideos.1up.com/video/id/30919		2010-08-19 23:14:00

Author:
Captnmatt
Posts: 96

I just realised there's a bit of a downside here. Players will come to expect custom music, which means more work for creators. And up till now I thought LBP2 was going to save me time...

I'm guessing there will be creators who'll do nothing BUT make music using this tool, and will share all of it up for the community to use in their levels.

And given that LBP2 will probably have much more music built-in than LBP1, the chances of hearing the same old songs over and over just dropped through the floor.




Also, the stuff about music editor interfacing with physical things in the level is too much for my brain to handle.

Does the connection go both ways? Can events in the level cause changes in the music? Oh my...		2010-08-20 00:34:00

Author:
Tig-W
Posts: 106

I would think so. You CAN have more than one sequencer, you know. And sequencers can be activated by switches.2010-08-20 03:34:00

Author:
Moony
Posts: 368

It will still take 30 hour to make an awesome level but the level of awesomeness will be "through the roof" compared to LBP.

.		2010-08-20 04:51:00

Author:
RangerZero
Posts: 3901

It will still take 30 hour to make an awesome level but the level of awesomeness will be "through the roof" compared to LBP.

.

Hahaha, never thought of it that way! So true!		2010-08-20 05:16:00

Author:
ShamgarBlade
Posts: 1010

Wouldn't be surprised if the music at the beginning of the story trailer was made using the music editor. It's going to be a powerful tool for sure! 2010-08-20 05:54:00

Author:
Ayneh
Posts: 2454


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