Archive: 24 posts

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Ok so I know basic logic but I want to learn more advanced logic, I checked out incinerators logic workshop but it wasn't much help as I don't know the practical uses of the logic shown in his level. This is in no way a criticism of his level, I'm sure it is of great use to many other sackboys and girls. So if anyone could just teach me some stuff feel free to add me, I'll be on this evening.

2010-08-08 16:07:00 Author: MasterCreator Posts: 464

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Hey man I think you should play the logic pack in LBP it was created by the people in LBPC and it will teach you everything about logic from beginners, intermediate, and advance also if you want to see all the logic from the logic pack go to this link and click on the one you want to learn http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?102-Logic-Pack

2010-08-08 16:58:00 Author: Arnald23 Posts: 1843

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I've done the logic pack I know all that stuff...It only teaches you 9 things.

2010-08-08 17:17:00 Author: MasterCreator Posts: 464

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I'm saying this to be helpful not mean... but if you think the logic pack only teaches you nine things... it's hopeless and you've missed the point of the pack. The logic pack open up a door for you to explore using your imagination... and they're are plenty of blogs, resources, and members to research as well. Incinerator is one such creator who made an effort to make logic more accessible. It sounds to me like you want someone to hold your hand, if that's the case, (and it's no big deal-- because lots of creators... famous and not-so, don't do their own logic), perhaps you can find some logic-fans who would enjoy complimenting your style in Online Create! Perhaps a visit to finding other happy Gadders? Just not sure you should belittle the merits of the logic pack in your comments... it's pretty popular around these parts ( a point of immense pride ) and most of the creators of it-- are the staples of the community. Not the way to attract 'positive' thread interest

2010-08-08 17:41:00 Author: Gravel Posts: 1308

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How did I know someone was gonna have a go at me. Surely I shouldn't have to explain that I mean no offence in my posts, you say your trying to be helpful but I didn't really gain anything from reading your post.Why do you think I want someone to do the logic for me it quite clearly says I want to learn it for myself. My guess is someone is gonna have a go at me for saying this as well but I'm just stating my opinion.

2010-08-08 18:02:00 Author: MasterCreator Posts: 464

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How did I know someone was gonna have a go at me. Surely I shouldn't have to explain that I mean no offence in my posts, you say your trying to be helpful but I didn't really gain anything from reading your post.Why do you think I want someone to do the logic for me it quite clearly says I want to learn it for myself. My guess is someone is gonna have a go at me for saying this as well but I'm just stating my opinion. We know you aren't meaning to offend. From Gravel's post, I myself took into account that there are plenty of creators that are logic-handy, and that the logic pack certainly teaches you more than you give it credit for. When I was a bigger nooby with logic, the logic pack slapped me in the face and gave me all the information I needed to begin creating my own logic. I'm not entirely sure that you looked at the TUTORIALS that the logic pack offers. For example, the elevator logic honestly allowed me to teach myself anything I didn't know at the time. I fooled around for maybe 2-3 days on just the elevators, thinking up my own ways to make them work, etc. This really helped me so I'm almost sure it can help you teach yourself, too. Also, Incinerator's logic workshop taught me enough, and gave me all the tools I need. This post wasn't meant to offend, just help Of course, as Gravel mentioned, you can also try finding someone in Find Other Happy Gadders by asking for someone to teach you logic! If no one seems to be of any help to you (which I doubt), try teaching yourself. I always enjoy doing that Good luck!

2010-08-08 18:13:00 Author: iGotFancyPants Posts: 1355

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I don't think anyone really understands my position with the logic pack I played all the levels in the logic pack and learnt alot from it but it can't teach me to say for example make a boss which changes weapon every ten seconds can it. It only teaches what it says on the level name I mean sure there are things related to what is made in the levels but it doesn't teach you all there is to know about logic does it.People will say you can't learn logic in a week or something like that but I'm not intending to I'd just like to someone to give me the uses of all the fancy switches and how to build various logic items(by this I mean the switches etc.)because on some of the things I've seen wouldn't have a clue what to set piston/winch speeds to. To be honest I don't really know what to say(Kinda ironic considering I just wrote a paragraph:L) If it makes you any happier I'm going to have another look at the logic pack to see if I can learn anything else.

2010-08-08 18:24:00 Author: MasterCreator Posts: 464

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Ah, other logic. Thing is, you don't need a specific tutorial on boss logic to learn how to make it. In fact, I never had any tutorial on how to make it and I know perfectly fine. If you wish for a specific tutorial, check out SLS10's boss logic tutorial as I'm sure it will help. I personally just would wire up a *insert number here*-way incremental bolt/piston set-up to activate said number of separate actions/attacks. I'm sure you don't exactly understand what I've said, which is why I advise for you to research and check out some blogs on this forum. Search up incremental pistons, etc to learn how they work. I'm sure this forum has everything you need to learn logic. Incinerator's logic workshop also has a set of incremental pistons/bolts for you if you ever decide to use them. Everything is at your fingertips, don't be afraid to look around

2010-08-08 18:58:00 Author: iGotFancyPants Posts: 1355

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That was just an example.

2010-08-08 19:26:00 Author: MasterCreator Posts: 464

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That was just an example. You learn with examples. Learning how to make boss logic could be a milestone for your learning of logic. There is no need to be mad or anything

2010-08-08 19:42:00 Author: iGotFancyPants Posts: 1355

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I'm not mad

2010-08-08 20:00:00 Author: MasterCreator Posts: 464

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I can't tutor you, and most others don't have time either, but if you, for example, made a help thread about a boss that changes weapons, plenty of people would help. A lot of people have told me I'm good at logic, but I wouldn't be good at all if it weren't for the logic pack, switch showcase threads that debate things like thermo and latency, rtm's logic blogs, logic levels from rtm223, comphermc, Tamland, and more, and any other kinds of logic resources I can read or study. In my level, you don't necessarily need to know which switch is useful in what situation, but when you come across an idea of a boss that changes attacks every few seconds, you might think "Hey, I could use this switch and combine it with this one!" Logic know-how definitely doesn't come naturally, but by studying logic recourses like the ones I mentioned earlier, you'll get better and better.

2010-08-09 01:56:00 Author: Incinerator22 Posts: 3251

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The way I learned logic was by putting myself into situations where I needed it, researching what I could and working it out on my own as much as I could and then asking for help on the forums (back then I was on lbw). I remember the very first logic problem I tried to figure out was a simple door that needed to open and stay open. I had the darndest time figuring out how to do that. Later I decided I wanted an elevator that would close the door, go up, and then open the door: a pretty simple bit of logic (and not especially thermo friendly), but it was a huge leap in my understanding of lbp logic. Later I needed a setup where the player enters a room, throws a switch which introduces a hazard, and the player needs to leave the room alive or else the switch will reset. I was very proud of that bit of logic at the time (once again, in retrospect it's actually pretty simple, but it was another big step for me). And so on. I would have an idea for something I wanted in a level and I would work to learn how to do it until I understood it. Now I can pretty much work out a way to logic pretty much anything I want to do (or at least anything I've wanted to do so far), though it's not always as neat/clean/thermo friendly as, say, Rtm's work. Maybe that's not the learning style for you (I'm certainly not suggesting that there's a one size fits all method of learning), but I'd give it a try. Obviously, I would look into logic packs and what not, but you may not be able to get much out of them until you've mastered some of the simpler stuff. And whether you're a novice or an advance logic builder, I would definitely recommend reading Rtm's blog.

2010-08-09 09:00:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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If you know those nine things.. you can make near invinite posibilities with them.

2010-08-09 17:44:00 Author: Luos_83 Posts: 2136

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This is actually something I've been wanting to try and help the community with. The logic pack is fantastic for people who are already logic-centric (i.e. know how to program), it hands you the pieces and tells you what they do. But what I think everyone else needs is a sort of tutorial on breaking a situation down into logic. Getting what you want from these individual pieces. How all those individual pieces interact make it interesting, but may not seem obvious, even from the logic pack. Of course as Sehven pointed out, there's no one size fits all learning style, so I've been trying to figure out how best to do such. I can't even claim to be the best logician here, but I'd certainly like to try and help. If for nothing else research as how to approach educating on logic usage.

2010-08-10 05:38:00 Author: MobiusDT Posts: 89

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I played all the levels in the logic pack and learnt alot from it but it ... only teaches what it says on the level name But what I think everyone else needs is a sort of tutorial on breaking a situation down into logic. Getting what you want from these individual pieces. How all those individual pieces interact make it interesting, but may not seem obvious, even from the logic pack. Are the tutorials not good enough for that? I mean, if you run through the tutorials and actually try to understand them (rather than using them as a throw-away step by step guide to produce <whatever>), then the fundamentals of how things interact should become apparent. The truth is, any logic tutorial is only going to show you how to make what it says on the level, if that is how you view it. To actually gain anything from it you will need to really dig it apart and understand why the contraptions in the tutorials work, not just how to build that contraption. Change things, modify them (then work out why it's broke!), try to change the behaviour, add in an extension here and there, maybe attempt to build an alternative system to do the same thing (there's normally a few thousand methods). And the underpinning truth behind all this is that logic design is not something you can learn through being told specific techniques. Think of it like painting - if you tell someone how to paint, explain to them techniques and then give them a brush and a canvas for the first time, they aren't going to paint a masterpiece. The truth is, it's more about experience and practice and the way in which you think than any amount of knowledge. Actually teaching people and showing people things is worth nothing unless they go away and spend 5-10 times as long in self study. If you read through the elevator tutorials from the logic pack and understand, you'll get a small amount of knowledge but in honesty, that knowledge will most likely be transient and will be gone in a couple of days. If you actually follow the instructions and build the device, then you'll get a bit more out of it. However, to actually get the most from it, you need to do this: For example, the elevator logic honestly allowed me to teach myself anything I didn't know at the time. I fooled around for maybe 2-3 days on just the elevators, thinking up my own ways to make them work, etc. This really helped me so I'm almost sure it can help you teach yourself, too. So I ask, mastercreator, in what way did you approach and use the tutorials from the logic pack?

2010-08-10 10:21:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Well I did play all the levels and I understand entirely the beginner pack and I'm starting to get an understanding of the intermediate the first time I did the logic pack I did build my own elevator but I didn't really learn anything as it was more of a carbon copy of the logic pack one and I must admit I did rush some of the levels especially the chase scene one as I thought when am I ever gonna want a chase scene but know I realise it's not so much what the title says more the logic involved to make it happen.

2010-08-10 11:22:00 Author: MasterCreator Posts: 464

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From what I get from various people and wanna-be-awesome creators is that a lot of them just do not get the.. how do i put this.. soul behind logic. The moment you make a tree with a few ands, ors, toggles and delays.. People go omg awesome logic, not being able to take what they see apart and analize each piece of logic. while more than often its nothing more than delays, ands, ors, toggles, switchers, counters and a few perma's. I played all the levels in the logic pack and learnt alot from it (1) but it can't teach me to say for example make a boss which changes weapon every ten seconds can it. It only teaches what it says on the level name I mean sure there are things related to what is made in the levels (2) but it doesn't teach you all there is to know about logic does it.People will say you can't learn logic in a week or something like that but I'm not intending to (3) I'd just like to someone to give me the uses of all the fancy switches and how to build various logic items(by this I mean the switches etc.)because on some of the things I've seen (4) wouldn't have a clue what to set piston/winch speeds to. To be honest I don't really know what to say(Kinda ironic considering I just wrote a paragraph:L) If it makes you any happier I'm going to have another look at the logic pack to see if I can learn anything else. (1): Actually yes it can, a fast reset attached to a i.e. 4 way toggle could be the basis of the boss changing his weapons each 10 seconds. (2): No, but combined with demitters (thanks rtm!) it will be suffici?nt for almost every creator. (3): I'd just like to someone to give me the uses of all the fancy switches. It all comes down to on/of - directional - oneshot, speed. Need an emitter to emit only once each time a switch is activated, set it to one shot. need a piston to change direction after a switch is activated.. use direction. Need to make a light go brighter or a car thatgoes right faster? speed settings. on/off works for dissolve, turn cars on or off, lights on and off. etc etc. (4) thats all in the eye of the creator, if you have a really heavy looking metal elevator.. it will probably go sluggish and heavy. while an elevator in star trek's enterprice would only make a low psshh sound and moves up quite fast.

2010-08-10 11:40:00 Author: Luos_83 Posts: 2136

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I'm not saying the logic tutorials are lacking, they're brilliant. What I'm saying is to the uninitiated it IS a step by step to get X device. What is needed is a tutorial on getting the mentality of taking ANY situation apart, and figuring out what logic is needed to make that happen. This is that last piece that I think people aren't pulling from the logic pack, because it's not something it is trying to teach, although it definately does encourage. The advanced elevators are a great example, there's a fantastic logic flowchart at the beginning of each part, and the basic reasoning behind the design, but it really doesn't go into the meat of how that design was hit upon. I know, and you know, it was iterative design, that finally got to this point where everyone was happy with it. But to someone else they just see this flowchart suddenly appear, like a muse struck some creator and they slap dashed together (quite accidentally) this elevator that worked in that manner instantly. It's all about being able to deconstruct what has to happen and deciding on the logic based on that. That's what they're missing. They know they have the tools, they just don't know when to use them.

2010-08-11 02:16:00 Author: MobiusDT Posts: 89

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And I maintain that for the uninitiated and for the initiated that ability comes from experimentation and practice, not from being taught. You can be told how to think your way around a problem, but that's never going to become the way that you think, unless you take the time to train your mind to think in that manner. You can drop in techniques and best practices (which those tutorials do), but in the end, people need to play around for themselves. This is speaking off the back of around 15 years (Probably more, depending on how you look at it) of training my mind to think it's way around technical problems in various fields. What I have been taught is the specific technical details, along with building blocks and examples to take apart. What I have learned for myself is how to think in a particular manner.

2010-08-11 10:33:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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What is needed is a tutorial on getting the mentality of taking ANY situation apart, and figuring out what logic is needed to make that happen. There's a couple of other resources which you may or may not be aware of, which are listed under the "Logic" section of the Tutorial Spotlight (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=26372-Tutorial-Spotlight)... rtm's Logic Blog (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=19365-Logic-Blog-updated-2010-01-19) feloneouscat's Logic: The Pudding of LBP (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=11184-Logic-The-Pudding-of-LBP) ...which are probably worth a look. As for basic combinational logic, I use the principles as taught in my A-level electronics classes. For example, there's a section in my copyable level "Examples for synchronizerman v6" with a car 'puzzle' in it. Probably helps to take a look at the level in create mode, but the general idea is there's a car with two grab switches which you have to move past an intermittent hazard. The car runs on tracks which can be lowered by grabbing one of the grab switches (which is how you avoid the hazard), and the car moves forward only when grabbing the other grab switch. To prevent it being too easy with more than one sackperson, if both buttons are grabbed at the same time, nothing happens, so to make this clearer, there's an LED below each grab switch to show when the adjacent grab switch is having its desired effect. If the players are killed by the hazard, the car needs to reverse back to the start of the tracks. The wheels on the car are double-bolted, so the forward and reverse motor bolts are completely independant. I start with a list of the inputs and outputs... Inputs A. Car grab switch 1 (lower tracks) B. Car grab switch 2 (move forward) C. Sensor switch (is sackboy on car) D. Mag switch (is car at start of track) Outputs Q. Forward car motor R. Backward car motor S. LED 1 (lower tracks) T. LED 2 (move forward) U. Pistons (lower tracks) Then I define the relationships between the inputs and the outputs using boolean algebra notation (in this instance, I'll use the notation defined by rtm here (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/entry.php?872-Mini-Blog-Logical-Notation))... Q = !A ? B ? C R = !C ? !D S = A ? !B ? C T = Q U = S From this, I can see that in order to get the desired inputs for the forward motor (Q), and its corresponding LED (T), I need to create a three-input AND gate, feed in the wires from inputs A, B, and C, and invert the input from A. For more complicated examples, it might help to build a truth table... <table><tr><th>A</th><th>B</th><th>C</th><th>Q</th></tr><tr><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>1</td></tr><tr><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>1</td></tr><tr><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>1</td></tr><tr><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>0</td></tr></table> ...at which point you can create a sum of products expression for every row where Q=1... Q = (!A ? !B ? C) + (A ? !B ? !C) + (A ? !B ? C) From this, I can see that I need three three-input AND gates, whose outputs feed into a three-input OR gate. Alternatively, the expression can first be simplified (http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_4/chpt_7/5.html) using factorization and other principles of boolean algebra (this is kinda heavy)... Q = (!A ? !B ? C) + (A ? !B ? !C) + (A ? !B ? C) Q = !B ? ((!A ? C) + (A ? !C) + (A ? C)) Q = !B ? ((!A ? C) + (A ? (!C + C))) Q = !B ? ((!A ? C) + A) Q = !B ? (A + C) From this, I can now implement the same logic function using one two-input OR gate, and one two-input AND gate, meaning instead of 12 connectors, I now only need 4, or probably only 3 if you also use implied logic (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/entry.php?881-Waste-Not-Want-Not-Part-3).

2010-08-11 17:34:00 Author: Aya042 Posts: 2870

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My head hurts.

2010-08-11 17:40:00 Author: Luos_83 Posts: 2136

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A nice write up Aya042, but well beyond most people's scope. It is difficult to analyze a problem and build a machine that will solve it. Programmers do it everyday, and are greatly compensated for their abilities. Don't get too upset if you can't "figure out" logic, it's not for everybody. The first step to "understanding" the "logic" of LBP is to solve your problem. There are -as they say- more than one ways to skin a cat. Don't worry if your solution seems long, complicated, or different. If it makes sense to you, then that's good enough. In solving your problem (creating your in game logic) try to boil it down into the simplest parts. When you are describing your situation are you using words like AND, OR, NOT to describe certain conditions that might happen? These my friend are the building blocks of logic. All you need now is to find a way for your machine to sense when a condition has been fulfilled. Does your design need to know where the player is? (Proximity Sensor) Or perhaps you need to know where something else is? (Mag Key/Switch pair) Does your solution need direct player input? How do you want to gather that input? (2-way, grab, paint) By combining input from the player with input your machine (that's what it is at this point) gathers from its environment, you can solve almost any problem. As a side not the reason that "logic" is so difficult in LBP is because it is equal parts programming and mechanical engineering.

2010-08-11 22:38:00 Author: Trader Sam Posts: 92

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This is speaking off the back of around 15 years...What I have learned for myself is how to think in a particular manner. Reiterating, I LOVED the logic tutorials, learned a lot. But I have a few years experience working in programing, I'm used to tinkering, pulling apart, and "fixing" things that aren't broke. I already had that mentality. But every time someone comes out of the woodwork asking how to do such and such ridiculously simple one step thing, I know they don't have that mentality, yet. I'm not saying that is a fault of the tutorials, I am in no way slighting the tutorials. That mentality is definitely encouraged, and should be, by the tutorials, and while you would think that anybody trying to utilize any part of the tutorials would be at least close to that mentality, I've been noticing most aren't. I'm interested in finding a way to get from the one mindset to another, quickly. How do you intrigue someone to change their mentality to something more curious about how they work. Once again, not badmouthing the tutorials. I'm not badmouthing anybody, I'm merely trying to say that some people aren't looking at the tutorials for guidance, but quick answers.

2010-08-12 03:57:00 Author: MobiusDT Posts: 89

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