Archive: 19 posts

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Well, the recent Marvel packs got me thinking again about what I felt were the inherent problems with comic books, and I decided to write a post about them just cause. Now, I don't have anything against the style of comic books- indeed, I've read and loved a few graphic novels like Watchmen, V for Vendetta, and Batman titles like Year One, Long Halloween and Dark Knight Returns. However, there is just one HUGE problem with almost all comic books that prevent me from taking the large majority of it seriously. The sheer size of it all. There are currently two main companies making comic books- DC and Marvel. Both have stories going back decades, and they all MUST continue. How can any of it be taken seriously when the heroes must ALWAYS continue their arcs... forever? Not only that, but do they really have to throw everyone of their creations into the same universe? Makes it hard to believe that Mutants are so discriminated against- the idea that I have always loved the most about X-men, not any god powers or whatever- when there are millions of other superheroes just walking around Manhattan? So, basically, I hate the fact that comic books companies force everything to be in one universe that goes on for decades, making itself inherently more complicated to the point of stupidity. Why can't they just make it more like any other medium, where stories are short one shots with a beginning, middle and end? A prime example- my personal favorite-in-theory, Batman. I love the idea of a man who believes that good can be pure, that he can stop crime and evil without resorting to killing- and, in the process,is driven to insanity by his own beliefs and tries to stop himself from falling to the same depths as the people he tries to stop. However, a man who transcends sanity- the Joker- makes it his mission to drive Batman to insanity, to realize what he is, and ultimately to kill him. But then Batman needs to fight against resurrected pupils and human bats and crocodiles and whatever. My dream of a one shot comic series that has no sequel featuring Batman driven to insanity by the Joker as the saga of good vs. evil and sanity vs. insanity will never happen. And that is pretty much why Comic Books, as they are, will NEVER be accepted artistically. They just need to drop this whole continuity and shoving everything into one universe... and take each story for what it is.

2010-07-13 17:46:00 Author: RockSauron Posts: 10882

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Actually, the "Marvel Universe" contains many different continuities/timelines/dimensions/etc. It's not all happening in the same universe, but really this just makes things even more confusing lol. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Universe#Universes.2FEarths.2Fcontinuities It's kind of interesting to read up on the history of the characters and events, but I don't think I would bother to read the comics. Also, alternate timelines and such generally annoy me because of their inherent retcon nature. Unfortunately many comics seem to favor this.

2010-07-13 18:04:00 Author: Gilgamesh Posts: 2536

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By "Universe", I mean it all happpens in some degree of it all happening parallel to eachother. The people in various universes go to other universes all the time- it's just the easiest way of saying it. It's not like how Zelda and Mario are in different universes, or how Terminator and Star Trek aren't concurrent, or that Alien and Predat... owai.

2010-07-13 18:11:00 Author: RockSauron Posts: 10882

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By "Universe", I mean it all happpens in some degree of it all happening parallel to eachother. The people in various universes go to other universes all the time- it's just the easiest way of saying it. It's not like how Zelda and Mario are in different universes, or how Terminator and Star Trek aren't concurrent, or that Alien and Predat... owai. About Zelda. For some reason, Miyamoto decided to make all of Zelda one story and decided to tell fans that there are two ALTERNATE TIMELINES! That's ****ing dumb Miyamoto. You just did that so crazy fanboys felt that there was some kind of continuity to everything and so they could overanalyze EVERYTHING. To me, it's a cop out. A lot of the Zelda backstory is just some way for hardcore Nintendo fanboys to feel like Nintendo making the same game over and over again is justifiable. I don't mind it, but I'd rather have them just make the same game over and over again without some convoluted backstory about alternate dimensions and timelines. On topic, comic books aren't art? That's BS. These "are ____ art?" debates are totally pointless. To some people, street racers are artists. To some people, ice road truckers are artists. Everything is art, so everyone can stop talking about it now.

2010-07-13 18:41:00 Author: qrtda235566 Posts: 3664

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And that my friend is why i preffer manga ove comics, one timeline, one solid planned story, no mixing with someone else's, no infinite transversing mixing parralel dimentions where everyone exist but no one knows of each other for no reason even tho the entire world has ven endangered multyple times. Not to mention the huge variety, from a large variety of genres to how some may end in one volume while others have lasted for years. @Gilgamesh Oh and i think what he meant is that even tho you've seen them fight together and mention each other many times in the series, whenever there's some planetary or galactic or what not, danger, you never see them cross-paths once, so like what, was like Superman asleep while Batman was fighting that thing that tried to destroy the earth or something? I mean Metropolis is not even that far from Gotham, they've said and shown it before, so how come they never take notice of anything that happens in the other's series?

2010-07-13 19:30:00 Author: Silverleon Posts: 6707

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[...]@Gilgamesh Oh and i think what he meant is that even tho you've seen them fight together and mention each other many times in the series, whenever there's some planetary or galactic or what not, danger, you never see them cross-paths once, so like what, was like Superman asleep while Batman was fighting that thing that tried to destroy the earth or something? I mean Metropolis is not even that far from Gotham, they've said and shown it before, so how come they never take notice of anything that happens in the other's series? Don't you know the universal cop-out? The answer to all of your questions is: a wizard did it. I can't imagine how convoluted the stories would get if everyone had to participate in every world-ending event though.

2010-07-13 19:38:00 Author: Gilgamesh Posts: 2536

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the simpsons are forever young too... marvel tries to reboot things continuously, like age of apocalypse or world without heroes - and dc had crisis of infinite earths. the best stuff is usually limited runs, or series that never made it as far as the big guys have and comics that were always intended to have a definite ending (Bone, Preacher etc). age of apocalypse had a version of generation x called generation next that was 4 issues long and a couple characters died heroically in the end... the weight of the story and it's feeling of rarity added an immense sense of importance and consequence for me as a young reader, and it's always been probably my 2nd favorite comic book ever. it'd be nice if the staples were always there, but having 20 different x-books is hard for any normal person to follow. if i picked up an issue of x-men now i would have no idea what's going on since i haven't read them in roughly ten years. image comics was a breath of fresh air early on. it was artist powered by all the best who left marvel, and even though the quality of some stuff was debatable each mega-creator had their entirely own universe that had no ties to anyone else. this is how you had spawn, the maxx, cyber force, wetworks, and savage dragon etc all entirely independent of each other. rob lifeld's universe sucked and was full of crap, jim lee had a few good things when handled by other artists too. spawn's gone on too long and changed artist hands too much, savage dragon is so sporadic and unpredictable that it gets a pass, plus erik larsen himself has drawn and written it since day 1. generaly the more titles a person had in their universe the worse it got... the one's who had just one or two, and spin offs had the right idea. the company really kind of went really awry and off the wall when they tried a few crossovers, but if you never read them, they never happened.

2010-07-13 20:44:00 Author: Unknown User

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Meh, I read web-comics. Much more enjoyable!

2010-07-13 20:50:00 Author: Fastbro Posts: 1277

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On topic, comic books aren't art? That's BS. These "are ____ art?" debates are totally pointless. To some people, street racers are artists. To some people, ice road truckers are artists. Everything is art, so everyone can stop talking about it now. I never said they CAN'T be- indeed, some of them are some of my favorite stories. The fact is that the stories are so convoluted that it renders it all stupid. What other medium has made it its focus to render decades of work and millions of worlds into one story? Why is there such a push for it ALL to happen in the same universe? What else does that and can be taken seriously? Basic plot structure 101: For a plot to be good, it needs to end. Throwing new and exciting things in to sell more ruins the integrity of the concept. ... to be honest, the same can be applied to videogames. I mean, how many series actually HAVE an ending? It seems to me that every videogame plot just is being added on to. How can any story be fully told if it NEVER ENDS? :/

2010-07-13 20:56:00 Author: RockSauron Posts: 10882

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I never said they CAN'T be- indeed, some of them are some of my favorite stories. The fact is that the stories are so convoluted that it renders it all stupid. What other medium has made it its focus to render decades of work and millions of worlds into one story? Why is there such a push for it ALL to happen in the same universe? What else does that and can be taken seriously? Basic plot structure 101: For a plot to be good, it needs to end. Throwing new and exciting things in to sell more ruins the integrity of the concept. My guess would be that the comics are being rebooted so often that they never have time to finish.

2010-07-13 21:02:00 Author: qrtda235566 Posts: 3664

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They just can't let their staple, money-grabbing things die. ALLthough, if they never experiment with new characters and/or never stick with them, they will never know how big a comic can get. They need to move on to different plots every once in a while, in my opinion... More often than they do...

2010-07-13 21:06:00 Author: piggabling Posts: 2979

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there are plenty of art-worthy books, mostly short mini series or graphic novels IMO, but awesome is right that art is an empty adjective that people apply more weight to than it actually has. hundreds of years of debate from when art left the classical realm and became a common man's aspiration, has still failed to render an absolute answer on what art is. ...piggabling is also right that these uber convoluted staples are what keeps comic books alive and has since action comics. many of the best and most creative writers and artists all got their starts on these books - frank miller with the original wolverine mini series for example. like the commercial music industry, pop and mainstream mega hits are the core that holds the tectonic plates of creative control and independent, niche art together. it's a common meeting ground, where 10% of all niche audiences comprise 100% of the mainstream audience and their collective support is what creates the viability for the medium to foster small, and less popular projects in any way. something brings people in, and they venture out into new things - both artists and fans have the same path. it's a necessary evil, i guess. you know something i've liked in final fantasy... the small hints that it's the same planet every time millenniums removed from each other's story - especially when Ivalice was used for FF Tactics, Cagrant Story, FF9 and FF12. the minor bits of fanfare, homage etc are nice. these are things that subtract from the integrity of anything, but can be very enjoyable for the player.

2010-07-13 21:56:00 Author: Unknown User

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Well, I just picked up 'The Killing Joke' by Alan Moore and Brian Bolland and I'd definitely clarify it as art. I especially love the flashback sequences when Bolland washes out all the colour except for one red piece which eventually leads up to the colour of The Jokers 'hood.' I won't go on any further incase some of you haven't read it, but it's the best graphic novel I've ever read and that's including watchmen. I read One Piece which is on it's 591st issue and even though the writing is OKAY, I still have enjoyed it all these years. Hell, it's gone on so long I don't really want it to end.. I can only imagine what's going on in the creators mind.

2010-07-14 23:44:00 Author: Space Posts: 9

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Indeed- I LOVE the Killing Joke. It is what I'd classify as art. Please understand I am not saying comic books can't be art- that is preposterous, and just is a stupid statement. The main objective of stories is to have an ending. A story isn't a true story if it never ends. Just as simple as that. I love Batman novels like The Killing Joke, Long Halloween, Dark Knight Returns- they are all awesome, and can really make you think. But when they make it a point to bleed these stories dry and add in all those mutants and aliens and dimensions and whatever they're throwing in now- then it just loses the ability to be taken seriously. A true story needs to end. Simple as that.

2010-07-14 23:48:00 Author: RockSauron Posts: 10882

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Yes, there's no doubt about that. True stories require endings. What did you think of 'The Dark Knight Returns' ending?

2010-07-14 23:51:00 Author: Space Posts: 9

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It was good, I love the way the Joker finally just kills himself because Batman can't bring himself to kill him. That is what Batman needs- a definable ending, so that it can end. But no. It won't happen. It will be dragged on for more decades. Whatever. I'll just cry in a corner that Batman, one of my favorite ideas in theory, has been forever ruined

2010-07-15 00:01:00 Author: RockSauron Posts: 10882

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Ah very much so, the Joker's final conclusion was fantastic and I even enjoyed his fight with Superman. I wasn't quite sure about him faking his death to continue on living though. Even Marvels 'Kick-***' is getting an undeserved sequel. Hell, at least Batman gets some great films. Even Batman & Robin is great if you watch it as a comedy.

2010-07-15 00:17:00 Author: Space Posts: 9

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(As an American,) one of the things I have grown to appreciate about American comics that never seem to end, is that they tend to be a little microcosm of The American mind-set. As the franchise gets passed on to new writers and artists, the story and art will tend to sync-up to whats happening in RW. For comics with that kind of history, I'm happy for them to go on for ever. with as many story arcs as they have, you don't need to start with issue #1 to get what's going on. I know this may sound strange comming from a fan of "The Tick" and "Paul the Samurai", but there it is.

2010-07-15 21:38:00 Author: swanbrown Posts: 898

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One of the fundamental problems with both DC and Marvel from a storytelling perspective is that both companies are largely defined by maintaining the status quo; things may change but they tend to spring back to a place where one creater or another think they ought to be. At the moment, DC is a bit more bad about this with their current "Brightest Day" arc; they've actually caught a lot of flak for killing or sidelining characters who've inherited superheroic identities in favor of returning their predecessors to their old roles. It also doesn't help that several of these inheritors were ethnic minorities (many of whom had strong characterizations in their own right) while their predecessors/successors are almost universally caucasian (leading to a lot of negative implications when one considers that "Brightest Day" is a follow-up of the "Blackest Night," which was a actually pretty good arc overall). Marvel seems to be trying to subvert this with their "Heroic Age," where the premise is more along the lines of more clear cut heroics and optimism as opposed to the incredible amount of moral ambiguity and cynicism that the Marvel Universe had basically been mired in since the '80s. So far this has actually resulted in some of (but not universally) the best characterization since before the horrible "Civil War" and post-Civil War era (though many are sceptical on how long it'll last). I'll have to agree that the less mainstream comics, which don't really tend to have a tremendous amount of stake in being made (in that they tend to involve non-flagship characters/namebrands), tend to be better in quality. For example, one of Marvel's overall best storytelling in recent years has been it's "Cosmic Marvel" books (i.e. Annihilation, Annihilation: Conquest, Guardians of the Galaxy, etc.), which feature lesser known characters that are placed far from Earth in their own adventures. The irony is, that by being away from Marvel's Earth, more prominent characters, and all the stuff going on with them these stories can basically go crazy, making use of characters and concepts ignored or forgotten, and raise the stakes in them to greater heights then you could possibly hope to have when constrained to a single planet and characters who the power-that-be deem shouldn't change much. Also, if you honestly want a Batman with a definitive end, you might want to check out some of the older issues/TPBs of "Astro City." The comic is basically a tip-of-the-hat to both Marvel and DC's heroes, and the "Confessions" arc featuring "the Confessor," a Batman-analogue (but not quite), is considered one of it's best.

2010-07-16 04:27:00 Author: Dapiek Absaroka Posts: 512

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