Archive: 42 posts

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During E3 I heard on a few podcasts that MM was thinking about some kind of difficulty tweaking for levels, even mentioned was the new super mario bros style floating bubble that players could go into that allowed younger or less skilled players to skip harder segments while a more experienced friend or sibling makes it through alone. Has there been any news or discussion on this?

2010-06-28 05:37:00 Author: Vertrucio Posts: 119

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Not that I know of. But what do you mean by difficulty tweaking? As far as I know, it's impossible to make something that is defined only by the creator while making the level.

2010-06-28 05:52:00 Author: Moony Posts: 368

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You're confusing Super Mario Galaxy 2 with LittleBigPlanet 2 m8...

2010-06-28 05:52:00 Author: Silverleon Posts: 6707

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yeah, I've heard nothing about what you're talking about...

2010-06-28 05:55:00 Author: Incinerator22 Posts: 3251

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I listen to a lot of gaming podcasts, I think it was on Weekend Confirmed or 1UP podcast that one of the journalists mentioned talking with an MM staff member and him being interested in some way of letting players alter how difficult something is, the journalist mentioned the new super mario bros bubble as an example to MM and the MM guys mentioned that they also took note of that, but no word on what, if anything, they were planning. I guess it wasn't discussed elsewhere, or anywhere more openly, but I guess there was some private discussion about it. Too bad it was only about a minute worth of time on a podcast. And, if you think about it, it's a good idea considering the range of people that play LBP. I'm not saying it's not a complex issue, considering how much content is user created. But, it would be useful for us who have friends, relatives, siblings, or children who enjoy the game but aren't skilled with platforming. My suggestion is something tied to checkpoint doors, where a player can maybe go back inside a checkpoint or something. There's already bubbles in LBP too if they want to go that route. Like NSMB you can pop a bubble that a player is in, but perhaps the bubble will float towards the nearest active checkpoint and can only be broken open at a checkpoint. Likewise, some players can disable such difficulty tweaking, or player bubbles for their levels.

2010-06-28 06:13:00 Author: Vertrucio Posts: 119

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Dude, the problem is not if we believe you or not, the problem is we have no idea what you're talking about! May you have a link to such interview you speak of? If so that may make things clearer for everyone.

2010-06-28 06:19:00 Author: Silverleon Posts: 6707

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Well thats quite easy to implement anyway, just make switches that send signal on specific difficulty and hi-score table for each diffculty. I even got idea for a level in my head (that i will do on LBP1 after project that i currently working on) where such pre-game difficulty settings would be very useful Whatever news is true or not, i like the idea

2010-06-28 12:28:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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Difficulcy setting? I sez it's up to the creator to include it. It isn't too hard, at least depending of the obstacle

2010-06-28 13:50:00 Author: Unknown User

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I like the New Super Mario Bros. Wii bubble idea. For anyone who hasn't played it, basically, you press the 'A' button and your character goes into a little bubble that floats a little bit away from the other players, and protects you from danger. When you want to come back, you shake the controller to get closer to your team-mate/s and they can pop your bubble, and drop you back into the game. It's actually really useful, especially if you're playing with young kids (for example, when I play it with my niece and nephew) because it means they don't have to stop playing or get frustrated when they can't do it. Instead, you can carry on alone until the level gets easier, and then let them come back. It also means that you can save yourself from losing lives because you could go into a bubble just before you fall of the screen, or collide with an enemy. I'd love for a feature like this in LBP2. Playing it with kids would become much more bearable

2010-06-29 00:14:00 Author: alexbull_uk Posts: 1287

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I see what you mean. Maybe not a bubble so much as they act as though their controller was turned off, without the hassle of actually turning off the controllers.

2010-06-29 00:35:00 Author: Moony Posts: 368

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The ability to hop back inside a checkpoint and get served hot drinks in the LittleBigBeyond until they're ready to come back out.

2010-06-29 00:40:00 Author: Tyler Posts: 663

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Lol. Why would anyone come out of there then if there's safe, nice, comfy and a bukkit of Hot Chocolate? BTW alongside the feature I'd also like to have (thinking of survivals) is to keep players from spawning until everyone's dead. Then the whole lot of them could return to the cruel and twisted environment their leader led them to. AND also an option to delay the spawning with a few seconds.

2010-06-29 09:12:00 Author: Unknown User

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Sackbots+Movers+controlinator+ingenuity = safety bubbles Yay.

2010-06-29 09:40:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Sackbots+Movers+controlinator+ingenuity = safety bubbles Yay. It's true, if you wire a scribble bolt through a double nox-gate (the first half of the nox scribs left, the second half scribs thirdwise), going out to an IF defined by mag-keys on a stripe pattern below and above the playable field, and then set emitters to emit vacuum rectangles set to sensor wall-crashing with indemnity turned on, those emitters hooked up to a piggybacked FOR with a cuff-mover keeping it behind the sackbot... well sir, you've got yourself a safety bubble.

2010-06-29 09:51:00 Author: Teebonesy Posts: 1937

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It's true, if you wire a scribble bolt through a double nox-gate (the first half of the nox scribs left, the second half scribs thirdwise), going out to an IF defined by mag-keys on a stripe pattern below and above the playable field, and then set emitters to emit vacuum rectangles set to sensor wall-crashing with indemnity turned on, those emitters hooked up to a piggybacked FOR with a cuff-mover keeping it behind the sackbot... well sir, you've got yourself a safety bubble. I feel relieved now. You know, I was fearing it'd be complicated.

2010-06-29 10:02:00 Author: Keldur Posts: 628

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By RTM's logic we should never have gotten these new logic tools and microchips since they can already be made via in-game tools. There's a vast difference between built in tools and stuff that's kitbashed together. When it comes to something as intrinsic as difficulty assists and the like, being built-in is key to make sure that more people use it, and that the story levels use them. As creative as people are, you can't forget that better tools really do help you make better games faster, especially the more skilled you get at making levels.

2010-06-29 10:26:00 Author: Vertrucio Posts: 119

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By RTM's logic we should never have gotten these new logic tools and microchips since they can already be made via in-game tools. Not at all. This feature isn't even slightly comparable to the logic tools, it's a very application-specific thing that does a single function and so it's worth is tiny in comparison. This would not help you make better games faster, it would simply allow you to create a bubble that plays the level for you quicker. If MM focussed on highly application-specific tools like this, then we'd have nothing. Of course, my viewpoint is slightly skewwed by the fact I consider a device to play for you to be worthless

2010-06-29 11:04:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Worthless probably because you've never really played with others who still love the game, but aren't as skilled at gaming, let alone platforming. Meanwhile, this, or any kind of difficulty assist would probably be just as useful as the new logic tools in terms of getting players to stick with and finish the game, thus getting more sales, more word of mouth, and a more established brand. Not to mention, more players to play the levels we create. LBP is a game that appeals to a very board market, it's one of the few high end console games that can also be safely played with, and played by, kids and adults. But that also means that it will appeal to some people who still want to play it with friends, but aren't good at the platforming and will hold up those friends, turning what should be a fun experience into a frustrating one, especially with the way the LBP camera works. Look around anywhere on the net and you'll often see comments from players that some of the LBP1 levels were too hard for a family, or two siblings years or more apart, to play together and all have fun. If MM focused on putting out a feature like this, it would instantly broaden the market for LBP even further. That's not something to take lightly. All the cool levels in the world means nothing if no one wants to play them. The same logic is why MM has also focused on making the community features in LBP2 and the lbp.me site even easier to use. Also for you, a creator, you can safely put very challenging segments in your levels without fear of alienating many players. This method still requires a player to make it through such segments, but keeps that player's little brother, older parent, girlfriend, or just another player stays involved and interested. Lastly, these less skilled players will learn by watching their friends go through the segments, and by playing the less difficult segments, and also in the multiplayer item grab segments. Over time, they'll be able to participate in more and more of the game until they're familiar enough to handle entire levels by themselves. This creates a gamer who gets to basically grow with the game, and enjoy it for all steps along the way. It ingrains LBP in that player's mind just as well as the original marios are ingrained in the minds of so many others.

2010-06-29 11:27:00 Author: Vertrucio Posts: 119

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I have played with people less skilled, and do you know what I do? I play easier levels with them. There's a few million to choose from, and plenty of those are geared up to less skilled players whilst still being awesome. What I wouldn't do is go to a level with them that I know is too difficult, make them switch off their controller and watch me while I play the level!! Which is effectively what this bubble thing is. You say you want it in because it would encourage creators to use it. This is exactly the reason I have a problem with it - there will be an expectation for creators to use it, which would be damaging for the community. Why? Because if a level does not have the spectator bubble, then it will be shunned, because of that expectation. As the spectator bubble is only suitable for certain game types, creators will shy away from the game types that can't support it, for fear of being shunned. Niche levels, inventive levels, original gameplay types and those which don't conform to the norms would be even more disadvantaged than they already are! Also for you, a creator, you can safely put very challenging segments in your levels without fear of alienating many players. We should never, ever, have been told and made to fear this in the first place. The push on creators to dumb down their levels to suit the lowest common demoninator has had such a detrimental effect on the community. We shouldn't be encouraged to make levels that anyone can play, just because they'll down rate us if we don't (oh teh noes!). Not to mention the fact that the spectator bubble would not fix this. You still need someone to hold your hand through the level, which means that single players may well rage rate. Rather than a push towards dumbing down, we should have a push towards being able to target levels at a specific audience. This "your level has to be accessible to everyone" attitude that has grown up around the broken and inadequate community system in place in LBP1 is nonsense. It shouldn't be that way. If players can find community levels of quality to play, that are of a suitable style and difficulty level for them, that would do more for their ability to grow with the game, than having a bubble to watch someone else play. It will be more enjoyable for them as they will actually be able to play and they will also be able to play levels without having someone to hold their hand. That is where the focus should be on dealing with difficulty of levels and the diverse nature of the skill levels in the community. Matching levels and players based upon what they enjoy and their skill level - I'd much rather have my level played 50 times by my target audience, than several thousand times by people who it wasn't suitable for. And I stick with my original premise. You can achieve something close to this by making your friend turn of their controller and to create a closer approximation to the bubble could be done in under half an hour by the creator, if they decided they wanted to. wrt the difficulty tweaks: I think that will always be something that has to come from the creator. And that is why I see no worth. I don't believe it will "solve" any problems and I can see the potential for it to do damage to the community as a whole in the way that it would drive attitudes of expectation in players and thus force the hands of creators. Also, didn't the original mario levels ingrain themselves in the minds of players, despite being brutally hard (they make anything in LBP story mode look like a walk in the park) and not having a cheat bubble?

2010-06-29 13:27:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Any such difficulty assist functionality, such as a player bubble, if implemented properly by MM, could and would be made to minimize the amount of time it took creators to implement it. This would usually be done by tying it in with already essential parts of levels, such as checkpoints, then allowing creators to enable or disable it. Sorry, but "Niche levels, inventive levels, [and] original gameplay types" will always be just that, niche. What's important is to not try and force people to play them, but get them hooked on LBP2's other classic platforming and slowly introduce them to the amazing other things they can experience. This is essentially how LBP1's story levels handled progression. You started with simple platforming and learning how to grab and drag, and things quickly progressed to seeing levels play with lighting (the wedding level 2), levels playing with crazy emitters (magician's palace), to giant boss fights with crazy contraptions (collector levels). Also, one man's niche, inventive, and original gameplay is another man's crazily complex gameplay that he'd rather go off and do something else. Especially so if a player is dumped straight into it. Instead, such difficulty assist functionality could actually make players try out these other levels and be more willing to go through strange and exotic levels since they'll have less fear of them, especially if they're playing with others. Even playing with random people online you have less to worry about one guy holding the group back, even if he's nice and you want to continue exploring with him, you can avoid kicking him and just use the difficulty assist. Sorry, but turning off the controller is not a solution, it's a stopgap workaround that feels like an exploit rather than an intended feature. Plus you have to deal with the wait time for the sackboy to disappear and the sackboy is still affecting the camera. Nor is it an option to force someone or a group to go through boring simple levels, or the same easy story levels, just to appease one lesser skilled player. This actually hurts your argument that this feature will cause the more niche, inventive, or original levels to get avoided, since you basically just said that you're already avoiding those levels. To be frank, I really don't know why you're getting so offended and angry by this concept. Such functionality only enhances LBP. A difficulty assist functionality doesn't play the game for someone. Even the Mario bubble style assist requires at least one player to get through any difficult segment. There can also be plenty of ways to reward players for not using such assists, little incentives that work to ween less skilled players off such assists, and make the better players. There could be pins, trophies, and more. Also, to reiterate my previous comment. Such functionality does have a lot in common with the addition of new logic tools in LBP2. In that, in LBP1 you could just as easily say that there was no need for dedicated logic tools because creators are just expected to build them. Well the reality is that people found that having full on logic tools really does help the game out. Let go of the fear, and you'll see this is really only a positive thing for the LBP community overall.

2010-06-29 14:22:00 Author: Vertrucio Posts: 119

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I'm not scared, offended or angry, I just think you are wrong! Also, judging by your response, I don't think you've understood half of what I've meant. I want niche levels to remain niche, I don't want them thrust out to masses, and neither do the players or their creators (unless they are woefully misguided). I don't want everyone being encouraged to play niche levels, especially not in a silly bubble. Your difficulty assists become redundant if you can match players and levels together. Also, I don't see the issue of playing an easier level for the sake of those less skilled in the party. There are plenty of levels in the community and the story mode that are suitable for beginners and experienced players alike. Again, the ability to actually find these levels is a far better solution than forcing your mate into a bubble, to watch from the sidelines while you play a level without them. My largest concern is that these assists won't work for most game types, and thus the expectation of them will force the hand of creators through fear of being downrated, to the detriment of the community. They also would so nothing to help solve the issues of rage rating from single players, which would still leave that fear of adding difficult sections to your level / supporting obscure game types. The feature does make sense for a game with a limited number of story levels, all based around one or two gameplay styles, because you expect the player to play all of the levels in order and that is the game. LBP is different, and I don't think this feature fits. Overall, without improved community searching the difficulty assist would not solve any problems and improved community search functions make it almost redundant. So no, I don't see that it's all positives and I still genuinely think it's nature encourages a lot of behaviour that I consider negative. I think we're likely to have to agree to disagree on this one TBH, as it is completely subjective That said, I'm firmly of the view that it's nothing like the logic tools - because it's not scalable. It's an application-specific feature, whereas a logic gate is a application-independent tool. The difference is massive. The beauty of the tools in LBP is not their individual function, it's their interactions.

2010-06-29 16:50:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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It's true, if you wire a scribble bolt through a double nox-gate (the first half of the nox scribs left, the second half scribs thirdwise), going out to an IF defined by mag-keys on a stripe pattern below and above the playable field, and then set emitters to emit vacuum rectangles set to sensor wall-crashing with indemnity turned on, those emitters hooked up to a piggybacked FOR with a cuff-mover keeping it behind the sackbot... well sir, you've got yourself a safety bubble. My brain hurts.

2010-06-30 06:42:00 Author: CheesyDemon Posts: 170

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Lol @ Teeby way. Needs to learn logic gate names. I would have thinked with a layer mover, a Sackbot, an anti-grav object (with on/off switch), a controlinator and sparing the frontmost/backmost layer for floating with invisible matter blockers. Of course this be a way for those who want it simple. Restricting it (point bubbles and such) can get complex though. And I agree with rtm. I hopes LBP2 makes it easier to find levels that you like (such as various filters on searches, and a Creator Block List).

2010-06-30 11:48:00 Author: Unknown User

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I havn't heard of this. The bubble would be a very unfair feature, and what would split the experienced from the newbies?

2010-06-30 15:38:00 Author: Unknown User

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yea I disagree with the whole "difficulty setting" issue. If some creators want to include something like this, by all means do so in your level. But as far as the entire game goes, I think something like this would be a horrible addition. When I was a kid we had games like the first teenage mutant ninja turtles, for the NES. (plus tons of other really hard games whose names allude me right now) and I was like four years old playing what is (in my opinion) playing one of the most difficult games ever. There was no save feature, no continues, and you got four lives. (I think you may be able to bring turtles back after they die, but by the time you get to that point its worthless or something) and you know what? I beat that game... a lot. Of course it was a simpler time, and there wasn't much else to do besides play a game over and over again until you win... I digress.. my point is, video games shouldn't be 'dumbed down' for kids. Keep them challenging. I guarantee any kid is going to get a lot more out of a game if they die fifty times trying to win, then they would if they win because they floated in a magic bubble through the level.

2010-07-01 01:17:00 Author: Madafaku Posts: 738

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Madafaku, you played games like that because there was no other option and those games were top of the line "cool" back then. This isn't so nowadays. RTM, Listen to what you're saying here though. You're basically saying you don't want your levels played? You also have to get over the idea that you are the prime and optimal market for games like LBP, and that creators aren't the only people playing the game. You are a hardcore gamer, your idea of fun isn't the same as a casual gamer. But, it's that casual and core gamer money that's going to be the difference between there being an LBP3 or future LBP2 DLC packs, or nothing. Those casual or even core players Matching players to a level is a good idea, but isn't an option for all cases. In fact, as I've already said, the broad appeal of LBP means that there will always be situations where a group will want to play something that's beyond the skill of a few members, yet the whole group wants to play that level. I play with a 4 year old who has been raised on the wii, along with 4 other little cousins ranging from 12 to 6. I love playing LBP with all of them, but they all have varying skill levels, and varying interests in continuing to learn this type of game. And frankly, I'd rather them just have fun (you guys remember fun right?) and play with each other running through levels than to force them to learn a complicated platforming when there's other things I'd rather they be learning, not that some of them would bother to try going advanced, and that's a good thing to me. I think the improved community search feature will also make it more important to have difficulty assists since those searches will inevitably turn up cool, but difficult levels that people really should play, and will play in a group with less skilled players. Let's face it, if you make a good level, people are going to rate it up regardless if you want it to be niche or not, especially since the new community and search features are being implemented to do exactly that, find all the good stuff that was buried in LBP1's community, and bring it to the forefront. Then, by bringing those levels to the forefront, those difficult, but creative levels will be played by all sorts of gamers, hardcore, core, or casual, regardless of whether you want them or not. As I've said previously, MM can implement a kind of difficulty assist that requires very little or no extra work from creators to implement, besides perhaps turning it off when they think a level would be broken or just wouldn't work with it (such as some top down games). Having such assists in NSMB didn't hurt the game in any way, and that was still a pretty hardcore platformer. People reacted much in the same way as many of you are reacting to their inclusion of difficulty assists when they read it on paper. In actual implementation, it simply went ignored by your type of player, and used to varying levels by those you would use it. And it was used quite a bit in mixed groups. In my house with 2 other hardcore gamers and 1 core gamer, we never used those assists. But, in my aunt's house those assists were used to good use to allow the oldest of my little cousins to play while his younger sister played alongside and kept up with him. These difficulty assists matter even more in the single player levels, which is where the vast majority of people play, most will never venture online despite the heavy focus of LBP1 on that. Overall, it just made it more fun to play with players of all skill levels. And LBP is a game that's all about running around a level with other players having fun. And player fun is what really matters, not some notion of “hardcore” or bravado; or fear of having a level you make played or strangely enough, not played.

2010-07-01 01:43:00 Author: Vertrucio Posts: 119

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How can you say that these difficult levels will now be played more if the game includes this "bubble"? It would be exactly the same, because players using the bubble wouldn't even be playing the level, they would be spectating. This means the players will just become more and more adapt to the bubble, and soon won't even play levels, they'll just watch. Force the players to play through levels, and their skill will improve.

2010-07-01 02:04:00 Author: Prince Pixelton Posts: 286

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You're using a bit of slippery slope here. It's like saying that all of us using these computers and having to use them so much more and more will turn us into space slugs only capable of using computers. First thing's first, a mario style bubble doesn't play for you, and it is only usable when there are 2 or more players. It does allow a player to skip certain parts, but at least one player must get past a difficult segment to free other players from bubbles. And, to reiterate: It only works when playing multiplayer. And that's where this is really needed to make sure the game stays fun for everyone. This video was posted elsewhere in the forum: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YfryLHstzE&feature=player_embedded The level in that video is pretty cool, wouldn't you say? The two players playing are moderately skilled at platforming as well. But throughout that video are examples of why having something like the mario bubble is a good idea, especially for LBP. One player gets ahead, pulling the camera that way, but is held back by player 2. Player 1 is unable to go back to shift the camera back down leaving player 2 a little stuck. Eventually player 2 blindly manages to make the right series of moves to rejoin player 1, but not after the flow of the level is disrupted and player 1 has to, frustratingly, wait at the top for Player 2. This culminates at the 2:10 mark, where the narrator basically says outright that the mario bubble would be a very good thing at this point.

2010-07-01 02:35:00 Author: Vertrucio Posts: 119

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@Vertruucio. isn't basis of your idea is possible even in LBP1 by simply turning off one of the controllers and turn on back in right moment?

2010-07-01 02:54:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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Yes, this has been stated before. My answer was that, why force someone to completely pause the game and action to do so? You interrupt the flow of the level, disrupt your fellow players, especially when playing same screen, and the other players still have to wait for sackboy to disappear from the level. This can still disrupt a group playing a level, especially any that are fast paced. Then, when he rejoins he has to select a profile again, once again disrupting the flow.

2010-07-01 03:00:00 Author: Vertrucio Posts: 119

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Yeah, I know. But the player that doesn't use the bubble would of played the level whether or not their was the bubble, yet the unskilled player would not play the level either way, because he's/she's not playing if he's/she's in a bubble.

2010-07-01 03:09:00 Author: Prince Pixelton Posts: 286

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In theory I agree with rtm, make them play, and make them evolve. But they won't play. If something's hard (or not OBVIOUS), the majority of them quits and posts trollish comments. I think the Cool Pages prove it. (x JUMPS CAN YOU MAKE IT OMG OMG are a weird abnormality...) To get your players to experiment, and stay in the level, you seem to need to be a LBPC top gun or other well known. If an indie level makes makes such levels, where everything isn't obvious, there's little chance the right players will find it. FILTERS! Back to the subject. Has anyone thought how fiercely Nin10doh would protect their bubble from not floating to Sony?

2010-07-01 08:44:00 Author: Unknown User

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i can see this descending into flames... Time for my two cents! I don't see the point of what you are saying you say you want to create a bubble that would incapacitate player until they wanted to play again, but surely the turn off controller method works just as (maybe even more) effectively. What if the creator doesn't want people floating around? what if its meant to be a level that splits you up depending on how many people you have, say if there was three, and normally they'd split it up into three sections, but one player entered the bubble and cheated past the gate? That would not be fair on the creator who would have his levels exploited!

2010-07-01 10:58:00 Author: Kern Posts: 5078

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Nope, turning off the controller works far less effective because of the reasons I've stated many times already in this thread. Also, what I'm looking for is any kind of difficulty assist, not just the bubble, but the bubble is a good example of one. Other options can be things like going back into a checkpoint to come in at the next checkpoint the group reaches, but this requires more forethought and backtracking than needed. It also has the side effect of taking a player off-screen. And, this is also why the creator would be able to disable its use at any time, as I've said already. Also, if you look at the example of the mario bubble, another player has to pop a player out of the bubble. But also remember that the exploit of turning off your controller, then reappearing can be used just as well to get past segments a player doesn't want to play anyway... Except that most creators don't build their levels that way. Any time a creator requires players to split up it's usually so that the players all have to simultaneously fulfill some role in those separate areas that he sends them to. Only after each player finishes whatever he's supposed to do in those separate areas does some kind of main gate open. If you're talking about one of the new competitive level types introduced in LBP2, then it's pretty obvious that a difficulty assist like player bubbles would be disabled by default, and even if a player could go into a bubble, no one would bother to pop him out of it in a competitive level. Let's face it, the current solution of people falling of screen, screwing up the camera placement, and then having to wait while they pop themselves or for the timer to counter down isn't the best of solutions. Lastly, if it's already sort of in the game, and looks like people use the feature anyway since people keep saying to use the method of turning off the controller, why not just put in a properly implemented and smoothly integrated feature? My goal is not to start any kind of flame war. But the reason I'm arguing so strongly for the inclusion of any kind of difficulty setting or assists is that I truly think that it's in the best interest of MM and the community to have such features in the game. Especially so considering how many comments I've heard about being being turned off by poor group dynamics and difficulty.

2010-07-01 12:25:00 Author: Vertrucio Posts: 119

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Don't be too much stubborn to make people like your idea They have there own opinion and respect that, don't expect them to change the view, are stubborn too.

2010-07-01 14:11:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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Why not just let the creators make this feature if they want to include it? Listen for a sec. Like rtm has said, if it's a feature, more people will feel they NEED to include it in their levels, and so if the bubble can only be used in certain types of games, then the creators feel restricted to make those types of games. If it's not a feature but it can still be made, only people that want to do the types of games that allow this type of feature might want to include it.

2010-07-01 14:30:00 Author: Prince Pixelton Posts: 286

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I tried to read through this whole thread, I swear I did, but at the end I got slightly tired and decided to start shaping my 2 cents onto this idea. I understand where everybody is coming from: make it a feature and everybody will feel the need to include it, thus people who dont will be downrated. True, indeed. Sadly that is how the community works. I also understand that bthe current system is a bit of a problem, or it can be a problem because the innappropiate type of players enter the inappropiate types of levels. This is, therically, solvable and solved by the new community system in LBP2, but still it's hard to believe to me that Mm will be capable of making the community act like they want them too. Still, lets hope! (I'm aware that more points have been made, but I'm covering the basic ones here) Ok, I believe I have a solution that could please both parties here. Make it a feature. But not the kind of feature that creators can choose whether to put it or not in their levels. I'm thinking of the "suicide" option in popit. Creators have no power over that, and same would go for this. If Mm were to add a button in the popit that reproduces the controller disabling effect (without the profile player selecting) this would let unskilled players going trough the most complicated lvl sections by relying on their teammates, what they already can do though in a much more complicated way. I believe this would solve the problems. No levels would be discriminated, no players would get frustrated and there is no chance this would break anything since it is already doable by turning controllers off. I really hope all that made sense in this huge debate context!

2010-07-01 15:05:00 Author: Keldur Posts: 628

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i've thought of a much simpler way of controlling difficulty, make a level to act as a mock menu screen with the holographic materials, easy, medium, difficult, publish 3 versions of each level with different challenges, - when the player selects easy, they are warped to the easier version of the level, and so forth. - granted this will take a bit of time, but i found that if you start with the hardest version then subtract the more difficult elements it takes no time at all. i had to do this with one of my levels in LBP 1 because i got rated really low because the puzzles were too hard. - so i took out the hard puzzles extended some of the platforms for the platforming section and removed half the brains on the end boss fight. - needed no crazy logic, just a couple of play throughs and gamer who was more casual than hardcore (my wife) if she could complete the easy version it was good to publish. EDIT: - noted i just re read some of the post's...so you want to have controlled difficulty for different players at the same time? that would be kinda hard to do...hopefully the above option could work, and the hardcore player would just have to deal with the level being a lot easier.

2010-07-01 15:10:00 Author: Spyre-wolf Posts: 63

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i've thought of a much simpler way of controlling difficulty, make a level to act as a mock menu screen with the holographic materials, easy, medium, difficult, publish 3 versions of each level with different challenges, - when the player selects easy, they are warped to the easier version of the level, and so forth. - granted this will take a bit of time, but i found that if you start with the hardest version then subtract the more difficult elements it takes no time at all. i had to do this with one of my levels in LBP 1 because i got rated really low because the puzzles were too hard. - so i took out the hard puzzles extended some of the platforms for the platforming section and removed half the brains on the end boss fight. - needed no crazy logic, just a couple of play throughs and gamer who was more casual than hardcore (my wife) if she could complete the easy version it was good to publish. I was thinking about real deal switches reacting on what difficulty player choose before start of the level. Ones you place switch on specific difficulty that difficulty level would appear in menu, if creator didn't place any of those menu would not appear at all. But yea, you will be able to emulate it anyway

2010-07-01 15:20:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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@ VEntrucio, I'm not gonna respond to your last 2 posts, as if I were to do so, all I'd be doing is copying and pasting from my preceding posts. I'm sorry, but I really think that you are being incredibly stubborn here. I've made a tonne of points already that counter the ones you've made afterwards. eg. Why NSMB != LBP, why the community features would work in this manner, why I "don't want people playing my levels", why levels shouldn't be forced to a on-size-fits-all scenario. It's a waste of time to raise any more points as I'm sure they'd be ignored / glossed over / misunderstood as well. What I will say is that I wouldn't have any problem with a slight tweak that allowed the try again button to leave you unspawned until the next checkpoint is activated, as you and keldur have both suggested. Although why that would be soooo much better than turning off the controller, I'm really not getting. It's not going to make any real change to anything, but if it would keep you happy while you force your friends to watch you play levels, because you don't want to play levels that are suitable for all, then I guess it'd do a small bit of good

2010-07-01 15:28:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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As spyre-wolf points out, people are already rating down levels for being too difficult. This is going to happen regardless of whether there are difficulty assists or not. He had to go back and create 3 versions of his level. What if his level wasn't overly difficult, but rather just overly difficult for a 3-4 player group? A group based difficulty assist like the bubble would have saved him a lot of time. You also see there assists as something a creator will be burdened with. I do not, and I'll be creating very complex levels right alongside you. For a good many of them I'd also disable those assists if I could, since the kind of levels I'd make wouldn't really support it. I have no fear or concern about being rated up or down for it. Although I suspect the new rating and review system will actually help in this regard too. I don't ignore your points at all, just as I don't think you're ignoring mine. However, it's clear that we're both coming at so opposite ends of the argument viewpoint that it's difficult for each other to see exactly what those are, at least, not until we see the actual outcomes of these being implemented. I think we're at the point in an argument where real world testing has to be done. What I want to see happen is that some sort of difficulty assist, or usability tweaks to current assists, are implemented fully into LBP2 so that they get a fair try. Of course LBP isn't SMB2, but LBP isn't just an online community, nor is it just creators. And, despite what I just said, NSMB does share a few key things in common with LBP2, which is a focus on 4 player co-op through platforming levels. Sure, in LBP2 you can make all sorts of games, but why leave out a really good feature for traditional co-op platforming for fear that it might interfere with some other game type that won't even use it. I wish we could get some more stats about who is rating what how. Is it being played in single player, multiplayer, or how many players? Where do players spend a lot of time, where are most of the deaths? These are the kind of stats game designers kill for, and perhaps the greatest weakness of LBP1's community was that it was missing more detailed feedback to creators. The very fact that MM has thought of these difficulty issues I'm arguing about. The real question is how to deal with it. You can say stubborn this, and stubborn that, but this is a conversation that must be had to improve LBP2.

2010-07-01 23:27:00 Author: Vertrucio Posts: 119

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I really can't see how a bubble requiring popping by your hopefully-co-operative teammates would work, myself. Personally, I'd rather either just use the 'try again' option and wait until the rest of the people in my group got to the next checkpoint, or for there to be some 'auto-play' feature that allows you to sit back and wait until you want to play again while your Sackperson attempts to complete the level without your input, as per a Sackbot. Press X and you'd be back in control again.

2010-07-02 08:24:00 Author: Unknown User

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