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Resonance [Name TBC] - ON HOLD (oh teh noes)

Archive: 97 posts

Note: This is now on hold. I've not been able to get any quality create time in god knows how long due to constraints of the real world. I was hoping to start up again this week, but it's clearly not happening. As soon as I can clear some space in my schedule, I'm gonna be back on it hard! I promise


Details of Teh Demo
OK, demo is now ready. You're only getting 3 puzzles (the fourth one I'm currently iffy on and I'm really not in the mood to be making judgements on whether or not I like my work ATM), the third of which is mechanically sound, but somewhat unpolished. These are the training puzzles, so shouldn't be too taxing. That said, there is no hand holding, so lateral thinking is a must. It's published under the working title of "Resonance", on the south pole and there is a key, in my lockbox, code:

blue-red-yellow-white-pink-green.

Failure safety has been added - It's basically a reset-on-death system, so it should now (fingers crossed) be impossible to break the level, hopefully. There is also a group respawn with optional retrieve-your-mate functionality.

Original Post

It's been 10 months since I published anything playable that wasn't part of a collaboration.

This isn't exactly the idea state of affairs. It's not that I haven't had levels in the works, I've just burned out on them, for a number of reasons. Recently I revived one properly, where the thing holding me back was aesthetics.... and I'm starting to be happy with the way it's coming along and the vast majority of the level is planned (and has been for months).

So overview: It's a puzzler. It's tough, to the point that very few people will actually enjoy it. I probably wouldn't enjoy it, if I'm honest with myself, however I'm so proud of the subtlety of the puzzle mechanics that I'm not gonna let a little thing like niche-appeal stop me unleashing this on the world. But more on the gameplay mechanics later, I may keep that slightly under wraps until I've had some fresh people in to test the intuitiveness of the initial stages.

For now, pixtures, still very much in development but it's a start:


http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/rtm223/Resonance%20Dev/APhoto_3-4.jpg......http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/rtm223/Resonance%20Dev/APhoto_5-1.jpg

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/rtm223/Resonance%20Dev/APhoto_6-2.jpg......http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/rtm223/Resonance%20Dev/APhoto_4-3.jpg


This part's not actually done yet, but the reactor / chimney / thingumajig is just too cool


http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/rtm223/Resonance%20Dev/APhoto_7-1.jpg		2010-06-22 00:12:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Looks cool. Does it come with cake? Preferably a better cake than the one in comper's level, that one tasted like sponge.

Umm... so seriously now, how do the puzzles work? What do you have to do? I can imagine them being logic-heavy 		2010-06-22 00:26:00

Author:
napero7
Posts: 1653

Looks good! very rtm-ey
Can't wait to see it done!		2010-06-22 00:27:00

Author:
Chump
Posts: 1712

oooooo shiny :O lol, can't wait to play2010-06-22 00:35:00

Author:
Littlebigdude805
Posts: 1924

Having had a taste I can't wait for the main course!

As for the aesthetics - looking good!		2010-06-22 00:57:00

Author:
Morgana25
Posts: 5983

Is this the level that you're going to use MY checkpoint in?

(I say my checkpoint because it fitted so well in JSD that that simply is its natural home. Your just a cruel ***** mother who took it away from its family)

p.s do I get infracted for getting around the filter?		2010-06-22 01:08:00

Author:
jackofcourse
Posts: 1494

Excellent news. Looking good. I can't wait.

Don't look too hard for playtesters though, because I might just know a man for the job (hint hint).


Quote Rtm223: So I know WHERE you are, but I don't understand how. Tell me

Make it Ungreth proof this time. 		2010-06-22 01:13:00

Author:
Ungreth
Posts: 2130

That is awesome looking! 2010-06-22 03:20:00

Author:
X-FROGBOY-X
Posts: 1800

That's in development? Something amazing then will be published soon...2010-06-22 03:23:00

Author:
JspOt
Posts: 3607

Awesome, Rtm! Visually looks great, I can't wait to see what it'll be like to play it. 2010-06-22 03:32:00

Author:
GreatWhite000
Posts: 673

You say its hard eh?
*imagines setbacks*
Oh god.

Can't wait to play it, and attempt to beat it. Maybe you could put in a little bit of..shortcuts? *wink wink nudge nudge*		2010-06-22 03:38:00

Author:
Testudini
Posts: 3262

I personally like niche levels. Bring it.2010-06-22 04:03:00

Author:
DarkSeraphim666
Posts: 96

You make purple look so good. XD2010-06-22 04:08:00

Author:
OneEyedBanshee
Posts: 1370

Is this the level that you're going to use MY checkpoint in?

(I say my checkpoint because it fitted so well in JSD that that simply is its natural home. Your just a cruel ***** mother who took it away from its family)

p.s do I get infracted for getting around the filter?

Yeah you do, so you should fix that ASAP.		2010-06-22 04:15:00

Author:
Whalio Cappuccino
Posts: 5250

OOOOhh Full of purply goodness!!2010-06-22 11:36:00

Author:
Strangepom
Posts: 445

Looks cool. Does it come with cake? Preferably a better cake than the one in comper's level, that one tasted like sponge.

Umm... so seriously now, how do the puzzles work? What do you have to do? I can imagine them being logic-heavy

As I said, I'm keeping that slightly under wraps for the time being. At the weekend I should have the "training" puzzles implemented and I'd like to get a few people to run through those completely blind. My intent is that the level should gradually teach you the mechanics (with a little trial and error on your part).

As you progress, the style of the puzzles is moving color-coded objects around to open up paths in various ways. The actual "rules" of the puzzles are simple, and everything you need to know is visible on screen, but it requires you to work through a lot of partial solutions to gradually get yourself to the final solution. Kinda like the Missionaries and Cannibals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missionaries_and_cannibals_problem) idea - moving things back and forth to gradually work closer to a solution (Morgana jumped to one of the later puzzles in the prototyped level and took around 20 mins on one of the harder rooms).


Is this the level that you're going to use MY checkpoint in? Hehe actually they got an overhaul for not being nearly pretty enough for my liking. They also got more sounds added. They literally are the best part of the level.


p.s do I get infracted for getting around the filter?
Yes, you do. Check your inbox


Don't look too hard for playtesters though, because I might just know a man for the job (hint hint).

Make it Ungreth proof this time.
I'll see what I can do



You say its hard eh?
*imagines setbacks*
Oh god.

It should be easy to not die in this level. Actually getting to the scorboard is another matter


Oh, and I'm still not overly-fond of purple... just so we're clear on that 		2010-06-22 12:06:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Just want to say that this is already one of my favorite levels in LBP, and I've only seen the potential for it. I know that puts a lot of pressure on you, rtm, but too bad! The mechanic is so simple, but I love it, and I love how the simple mechanic grows into these complicated, brain-wrenching puzzles.

Please give me a ring for testing this weekend. I don't care if it's not entirely "blind." 		2010-06-22 12:15:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

Yay ive been wanted to see you create a new level. Looks very interesting! Cant wait until its done 2010-06-22 12:27:00

Author:
Fenderjt
Posts: 1969

When is the expected release date? 2013?

2010-06-22 12:55:00

Author:
mrsupercomputer
Posts: 1335

Finally!

I enjoyed Setbacks a lot! so I guess I enjoy this to, perhaps The level is looking good in the pictures, when do you think it's done?		2010-06-22 12:57:00

Author:
Alec
Posts: 3871

Soon

This thread is intended to be motivational for me as much as anything else and I have very specific reasons to get this finished next month. In fairness, now that I'm happy with the visual style, and have once again decided that I actually like the level concept, I shouldn't hit too many hurdles. Probably.		2010-06-22 13:01:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

OK, so this is (in difficulty) like Subterranian setbacks, but With the challenge being put on your brain rather than your fingers? Sounds very, very interesting! I hope you WOW us with some neat logic designs on this one, too!2010-06-22 13:03:00

Author:
Arradi
Posts: 183

Soon

If that's anything like Sony 'soon', we'll be waiting 6-8 months. Bah!

Must try this level out at some point, so I can give you lots of annoying complaints constructive feedback. 		2010-06-22 13:16:00

Author:
Aya042
Posts: 2870

OK, so this is (in difficulty) like Subterranian setbacks, but With the challenge being put on your brain rather than your fingers? Sounds very, very interesting! I hope you WOW us with some neat logic designs on this one, too!

That's basically it, and as with setbacks, the idea is to make a hard level that isn't just hard for the sake of being hard and has slightly more refinement. Although this time round I've probably ditched all notion of narrative, although I'm still in two minds about that. The original story was to have sackboy arriving at a rather unusual job interview and having to pass some "tests" to prove his worth. Needless to say, all is not as it seems and I was considering having the antagonist as a evil computer, with split personality disorder (does the word BLAINE mean anything to you ungreth?)

I'll probably post some before and after optimisation logic pics later in the week 		2010-06-22 23:29:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

If that's anything like Sony 'soon', we'll be waiting 6-8 months. Bah!

What about the Subterranean Setback remake?
Or his randomizer logic blog?
Or that Canyon Jazz-esque minigame he's made some things for?

There's his problem, he can't stay on one thing at a time! :colossus:		2010-06-22 23:41:00

Author:
Incinerator22
Posts: 3251

Ohey, you're working on this still? Good to hear it! I loved what I saw of this... whenever it was that I saw it... the puzzle mechanic was very fun, and the logic was just too cool 2010-06-23 05:50:00

Author:
Burnvictim42
Posts: 3322

I like the sound of this. It sounds like it's not just a level full of random different puzzles, but a level based on the same puzzle that just getting harder as it goes on. I love concepty type levels. Awesomeeee.2010-06-23 10:10:00

Author:
jackofcourse
Posts: 1494

That's basically it, and as with setbacks, the idea is to make a hard level that isn't just hard for the sake of being hard and has slightly more refinement. Although this time round I've probably ditched all notion of narrative, although I'm still in two minds about that. The original story was to have sackboy arriving at a rather unusual job interview and having to pass some "tests" to prove his worth. Needless to say, all is not as it seems and I was considering having the antagonist as a evil computer, with split personality disorder (does the word BLAINE mean anything to you ungreth?)

I'll probably post some before and after optimisation logic pics later in the week

Bah! Dumb street magician!

No, but seriously... a level set on a speeding psychotic train that will crash unless you solve it's puzzles in time is a great idea. If you did exactly that though, it would hinder my plans for a Dark Tower series once LBP2 comes out! I hate the thought of rejigging ideas which others have already done better.

BTW, has your sackboy got agoraphobia? You don't come out to play anymore!!! 		2010-06-23 10:18:00

Author:
Ungreth
Posts: 2130

Bah! Dumb street magician!

No, but seriously... a level set on a speeding psychotic train that will crash unless you solve it's puzzles in time is a great idea. If you did exactly that though, it would hinder my plans for a Dark Tower series once LBP2 comes out! I hate the thought of rejigging ideas which others have already done better.

Actually, it was more likely to become a sinple GLaDOS-type thing with the Blaine / little Blain dynamic going on. However, I have a feeling not even that will make it in. I probably won't even have a single magic mouth in the level and make the whole thing completely abstract.



BTW, has your sackboy got agoraphobia? You don't come out to play anymore!!! Yeah I know, I couldn't make our playdate last night. I'm sorry 		2010-06-23 13:31:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Personally, I would prefer you strip any thermo for a Computer Narrator and use it to add more awesome puzzles

I agree with comphermc: this is already one of my favorite levels, and the demo I got to see a few months ago was mind-blowing. (I thought you'd given up on it .) The concept is just ingenious. I can't believe how some people can think up brilliant level designs like that.

I had a blast while playing it. I don't really think it's hard, but that's just me.

By the way, did you think of how you'll make the crystals respawn if they break?		2010-06-23 15:26:00

Author:
Incinerator22
Posts: 3251

Wowee! Another level from my favourite creator! Can't wait to play it. If it's half as good as SS was, it'll be stunning.
BTW, I sent you a friend request. I don't mind if you say no, but I figured I'd let you know.		2010-06-23 15:52:00

Author:
Cpt_Sainsburys
Posts: 187

This is looking VERY good! I can't wait to play it! 2010-06-23 15:52:00

Author:
RJA00000
Posts: 387

I played this last night and it's looking very good so far. There's a nicely balanced mechanic, with puzzles that can eventually be solved by persistent trial and error, or even sooner by stopping for a moment to think laterally about the situation, and it seems like there will be a graded learning curve with things getting much tougher as you progress. Just the way puzzle games should be.

The visuals are stunning too.

Here's hopin' the purple headed warrior doesn't make us all wait until christmas for this. 		2010-06-24 09:00:00

Author:
Ungreth
Posts: 2130

Good to see you work on another level. I imagine it must take some willpower after having tasted LBP2, but I though it was kinda dubious for someone with only one level to be invited to the Game Jam.

But seriously, I like puzzle levels, I'd be happy to volunteer if you need more testers.		2010-06-24 13:48:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

Looks very good! Hope you actually finish it or you know, I might cry... 2010-06-24 14:26:00

Author:
piggabling
Posts: 2979

I'm actually quite chuffed with myself today, I managed to design a new puzzle, which includes a previously unused element of the puzzle mechanic. I must have spent around 4 hours trying to design a puzzle with this feature in back in april, yet today in my lunch break I had a eureka moment Anyways, that's now gonna be puzzle four, which means I still need to do a puzzle three. I have an idea which is a bit noddy, but in fairness I need to introduce a specific gameplay element there and I can't think of a different way to do it.

So the current plan is, to build puzzles 3 and 4 and get them into the level, then publish that ASAP for open testing (watch this space for details). After that, I'll probably build the rest of the level closed testing before releasing.		2010-06-24 18:52:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Looks like fun! I just hope Incinerator22 doesn't continually force me to try and get the top score with him like he did with setbacks D:2010-06-24 19:02:00

Author:
GreyMRP
Posts: 588

I'm actually quite chuffed with myself today, I managed to design a new puzzle, which includes a previously unused element of the puzzle mechanic. I must have spent around 4 hours trying to design a puzzle with this feature in back in april, yet today in my lunch break I had a eureka moment

^^ This. Is lies. It doesn't work


On the subject of scores... I had a thought about that, which was to do points via secrets, but then have a unlockable race mode, once you've found all the secrets (possibly as a collected all prizes reward). I think this level would be a beast for race mode as you have to learn all of the complex solutions off by heart to get a good score, and it's easy to fumble / forget what you're doing 		2010-06-24 19:16:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Great... Brain challenges...

Still sounds like a good idea though! Haha		2010-06-24 19:19:00

Author:
piggabling
Posts: 2979

They maybe slightly rough and ready but I'd

... !

Hanging on your every word! Was the suspense intentional? 		2010-06-24 20:31:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

I may have done that by accident. And now I'm struggling to work out what I meant to say. I'm really distracted today for some reason

Edit, hah that was gonna be paragraph 2, but then gave up on it and I re-wrote it above and forgot to delete the original. I'm so clever :blush:

I should probably erase all evidence of that lol.

Edit, by the looks of things, if I stop messing around tweaking and playing the bits I've already done, I should have a open demo ready tomorrow night, before I go away for the weekend. Everyone say "yay!" 		2010-06-24 20:33:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Edit, by the looks of things, if I stop messing around tweaking and playing the bits I've already done, I should have a open demo ready tomorrow night, before I go away for the weekend. Everyone say "yay!"

OK, demo is now ready. You're only getting 3 puzzles (the fourth one I'm currently iffy on and I'm really not in the mood to be making judgements on whether or not I like my work ATM), the third of which is mechanically sound, but somewhat unpolished. These are the training puzzles, so shouldn't be too taxing. That said, there is no hand holding, so lateral thinking is a must. It's published under the working title of "Resonance", on the south pole and there is a key, in my lockbox, code:

blue-red-yellow-white-pink-green.

ATM there is no failure safety. You may well break the level if you kill yourself and / or lock yourself out. As it stands it shouldn't be a problem, as the current demo is very short 		2010-06-25 21:26:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Is the demo considerably different than the one I played?2010-06-25 21:36:00

Author:
Incinerator22
Posts: 3251

visually it is. The puzzles are slightly different, but as they are training ones you should be able to waltz through them. You should already have a key for it though, as I'm using that same slot.2010-06-25 21:39:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Played it, and loved it. (I used an alt account in case you were wondering who the heck that was on the scoreboard).

That third puzzle is exactly the kind of thing I'm looking forward to with this level. It's fantastic. How many puzzles total was the plan?

Anywho, tagged it Cute because you took the time to make a purposely distorted level badge so it look normal when applied. You would.

2010-06-25 23:36:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

That third puzzle is exactly the kind of thing I'm looking forward to with this level. It's fantastic. How many puzzles total was the plan? Depends, ATM it looks like I can comfortably fit in those three puzzles, the two large ones from the prototyping level, a medium one (the one for part four) and still have a fair bit of thermo left. I have a 7th planned, which has some variation from the door / lift monotony, and can probably fit in a 8th medium sized one.
The limit is, as I expected, the collected objects thermo. However I can optimise down the puzzles that have less that 3 colours to work with. I am going to rinse a fair bit of collected objects on the lighting and particularly the sounds (please tell me you noticed all the sound in the polished part of the level?).


Anywho, tagged it Cute because you took the time to make a purposely distorted level badge so it look normal when applied. You would. Yeah I did that aaaages ago, about 2 days before I found out you can stretch stickers anyway 		2010-06-25 23:59:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Oh, right... the sounds. To be honest, not a fan. It just sounded... LOUD. I know that you were playing with overlapping sounds, but that metal sound is just over the top for this level. It was actually the only thing about the level that I didn't like.

Edit: I'm playing again right now... was it even metal? Let me get another feel for it.

Edit2 I'm hearing subway, and something else... gas siren? Yeah, it's kinda distracting.

Oh, also... your big chimney thing kills me when I walk into it. Didn't expect that.

2010-06-26 00:18:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

I think this should work pretty well the way you intend, no explanation, just trial and error. These ones are easy enough, but I can see there's potention for some brain busters.

Some specifics:
Not sure if this was intentional, but in the last puzzle I seem to have broken the left green door, maybe by putting a red key in. It stayed permanently open, which made the puzzle slightly easier. Also, the right green door doesn't open as far with the red key, but I suppose that's intentional.

Edit: Oops, forgot to mention, the level looks awesome. Also, now you mention it, I liked the mix of sounds, made it seem like it was a different piece of music.

Cool stuff, gimme more!		2010-06-26 00:25:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

@Rogar:

The door is meant to open halfway when the wrong color is inserted. Weird about the door getting stuck open, though.		2010-06-26 00:29:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

Well, the color didn't seem to matter in the previous puzzle, so I stubbornly tried to get through it with the wrong color. At one point I got quite far with the key stuck under the door, pulling with X to try and force it through, but about halfway it just wouldn't budge any further. Also, tilting the boxes so I could get it jammed under the half-open door also failed. I'd say it's pretty foolproof. 2010-06-26 00:35:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

Not that I'm that fussed about the spoilers, but anyways...

Putting the wrong colour key in the door shouldn't have broken it. I did just switch off my PS3 but I'll check. It doesn't seem to be a fundamental flaw with that particular door and it's not something I've ever seen before.

It's correct that the doors should only open half way with the wrong power crystal in them, that's actually the primary dynamic for the puzzle design, on half power doors only open halfway (so cubes may not pass) and elevators only travel half way up (so you can't take any objects up them, but if you have a cube, you can jump sackboy up). There are a few other idiosyncrasies as well. This is where the whole resonant energy thing comes from - you get more power if the colours match and you get a proper resonance going on (pseudoscience FTW).

I do currently have a dilema though. My failure safety is reset on death, which means that if the player does get themselves into a pickle, they need to know that suicide (of the entire party) will automatically trigger the reset. At the moment I have no method to convey this information, bar a magic mouth. Which of course is too easy That's a question that I'm really going to need some help with. Any ideas?		2010-06-26 01:05:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Well, as they say: show, don't tell. You could lead people into getting themselves stuck (like you did in your level reset demo), and then kill them off so they can see it has reset itself. It's a bit harsh, maybe...

Edit: ... then again, some might say the same about Subterranean Setbacks. 		2010-06-26 01:22:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

Well... just make it pickle-proof then!

As good as that sounds, it's near impossible to do. Well, you could do a TON of testing and find most of the, dare I say, "pickle places" and place a sensor switch activating a piston to cancel one reset... well hold on... a picture may do better. Although I do not know how your reset works, I'm still trying... I'm not even sure if your reset switch is able to be canceled, but I'm sure you could devise a way. You genius you!

.18525
Cick for largerness...

You've probably already thought of this and determined that it wouldn't work (or was just too much work). So... yeah... there it is :blush: Answering the wrong question... Oops!

Or just how to tell them, you could have a little cutscene with a robot... Haha! That'd be funny and totally unneccessary. Too bad we don't have sackbots... A sign maybe? I also think an introduction puzzle could... umm... introduce the feature.		2010-06-26 02:02:00

Author:
piggabling
Posts: 2979

Tried, it's PERFECT. Tested for cheating abilities and there were none.
I suggest having that platform that goes up and down (the green one) be activated by sensor.		2010-06-26 06:11:00

Author:
JspOt
Posts: 3607

Wow, there's some of the best detail here I've ever seen! You combined geometry, stickering, consistency, and color flawlessly. I also like the simple but powerful platforming sessions between puzzles, especially when you have to look for notches and pathways to jump into. (The detail doesn't go to waste.)

-If one player is grabbing a cube dispenser while another person moves a gem into the spot, you hear a cube spawning noise but nothing comes out. I know it's probably meant to be 1-P only, but...

-I still think it's a major problem that a gem being too close to a door means it's easy to accidentally get stuck in the level if a player is rushing. It's possible to pull a gem out of its door spot and get squished by the door while you pull the gem. You can also spawn on the other side, and it's impossible to then get to the other side of the door.

-Some of the gem veins were spazzing out. I'm guessing that's because of the compression tool.

-I strongly agree with comphermc about the sound. I think the level comes off as loud, in bad way. It seems to contradict the calm music, and drown out the music too.



Yeah I did that aaaages ago

*Checks the date of my early beta comment* December 2009 :eek:		2010-06-26 07:03:00

Author:
Incinerator22
Posts: 3251

Feel like I'm intruding upon a secret buddy club.

First off, this looks really, really good.


It's tough, to the point that very few people will actually enjoy it. I probably wouldn't enjoy it..

I promise to enjoy this so much.

Puzzlers are my favorite sort of level, but there's never been one to stand out, aesthetically or in degree of challenge.
Everyone I've seen so far on these forums seems to regard you with huge respect as very intelligent, so I look forward to what you can do with a no holds barred, "there is no hand holding" Puzzle level.

I don't know if this has happened to anyone else yet, but the grabbable material on top of one of the crystals broke for me once. I had to start over, as I couldn't move it efficiently, and if it got stuck in a hole, it stayed. (Ok, maybe it wouldn't stay all the time, but it got stuck once and that particular stick was permanent.)		2010-06-26 07:50:00

Author:
Valgee
Posts: 105

Oh, right... the sounds. To be honest, not a fan. It just sounded... LOUD. I know that you were playing with overlapping sounds, but that metal sound is just over the top for this level. It was actually the only thing about the level that I didn't like.

Edit: I'm playing again right now... was it even metal? Let me get another feel for it.

Edit2 I'm hearing subway, and something else... gas siren? Yeah, it's kinda distracting.
I dunno what metal sound you mean. The gas siren is supposed to be just audible in that top section where you just run through, but hearing it in the puzzle below is an annoyance. I'll add a prox and / or just remove it. I assume the twinkle, sword swing, heavy breath, rain, etc. weren't to much, or are they all to loud as well?


Oh, also... your big chimney thing kills me when I walk into it. Didn't expect that. You didn't expect the big, brightly glowing, electrified object, covered in deadly gas, to be deadly? ****, maybe I should add some signs around there. What's the equivalent of "fire: hot" here Actually I know this would actually be annoying, especially if it triggers a reset of the puzzle before. Maybe that could be what solves my how to tell them about death issue



Tried, it's PERFECT. Tested for cheating abilities and there were none.
I suggest having that platform that goes up and down (the green one) be activated by sensor.
Ahhh, that would cause issues with other puzzles, later on. I also thought about having a grab mechanism for it and that becomes an issue when you have a couple of crystals and a cube on there, and also opens up more chances for someone to break the puzzles. I know the elevators are slow but it's the lesser of 3 evils IMO, and the level is not supposed to be fast-paced anyway.


I also like the simple but powerful platforming sessions between puzzles, especially when you have to look for notches and pathways to jump into. (The detail doesn't go to waste.) Thanks, I'm not sure where I'm really going with that, I just need to break up the monotony where possible, so I'm going to be adding pieces of platforming in between.


If one player is grabbing a cube dispenser while another person moves a gem into the spot, you hear a cube spawning noise but nothing comes out. I know it's probably meant to be 1-P only, but... Nah, I'm hoping to support multiplayer, there's no reason why it should be 1p and my reset logic is all multiplayer safe. I think I know what's causing this (cube demitter systems still moving when it tries to emit). There are ways to solve this. Thanks.


-I still think it's a major problem that a gem being too close to a door means it's easy to accidentally get stuck in the level if a player is rushing. It's possible to pull a gem out of its door spot and get squished by the door while you pull the gem. Nah, that's a punishment for trying to pull the crystal through the door, which is a foul


You can also spawn on the other side, and it's impossible to then get to the other side of the door. Reset on death. It will be there.


Some of the gem veins were spazzing out. I'm guessing that's because of the compression tool. Ahh crap, this only happened to me in create mode front view. Is it on the ones from the slots to the door / elevator?


I don't know if this has happened to anyone else yet, but the grabbable material on top of one of the crystals broke for me once. I had to start over, as I couldn't move it efficiently, and if it got stuck in a hole, it stayed. (Ok, maybe it wouldn't stay all the time, but it got stuck once and that particular stick was permanent.) Thanks for the feedback. Did you trap it in a door / elevator, or did it break as you were pulling it out of the whole. It's unfourtunate if it's the latter. However, reset on death will solve this. There are numerous ways you can break the puzzles, through death, carelessness, or breaking things, hence the requirement for a reset.

Thanks guys, I've gotta shoot off now. Any more comments on this opening section are appreciated. I'll remove the siren sound from the level for now and let me know if there is anything else that is particularly annoying. Thanks.		2010-06-26 09:54:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

I wants to play this but can't get on the public server

I shall play when I get home tonight and willl post again!		2010-06-26 10:05:00

Author:
jackofcourse
Posts: 1494

I played this earlier, and it's really good! I can't wait to see the whole thing!

There are a few bugs with the last puzzle though. I managed to get the second door stuck just slightly open, and my sackboy couldn't fit through the gap. I had to restart the level because of that. This happened again, but after putting the crystals in and out a few times it managed to fix itself. Then I managed to get that second door stuck open somehow (as mentioned earlier) and I already had the cube under the third door so I could just take the crystals out and complete the level.

Other than that, though, it was awesome! 		2010-06-26 14:04:00

Author:
Otune
Posts: 131

Putting the wrong colour key in the door shouldn't have broken it.

I had the same door break. It might have been as a result of trying to wedge the box underneath so it's right on the edge, in the hope that I could yank it out after the door power is disabled. It's all too easy to get pistons out of alignment to the point where they no longer function correctly, unfortunately, so this may not be a soluble issue in the long term.



At the moment I have no method to convey this information, bar a magic mouth. Which of course is too easy That's a question that I'm really going to need some help with. Any ideas?

Put it in the level description? Unless you want figuring that out to be a 'puzzle' in its own right, but I think that would just be too cruel.


Only other comment I can think of right now is that manipulating the 'crystals' can be a little fiddly, but I doubt there's much you can do about that.		2010-06-26 14:31:00

Author:
Aya042
Posts: 2870

Well... you could carefully design a puzzle like in your demitter demo room where the player is meant to fail, and they only know how to solve it after doing so. Thus a pop would reset the room.

?		2010-06-26 14:38:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

I had the same door break. It might have been as a result of trying to wedge the box underneath so it's right on the edge, in the hope that I could yank it out after the door power is disabled.

I didn't do that and still broke it. In fact, I don't even remember putting any box under the door. My memory is fuzzy about this, but it might have broken before I even moved any box near it.		2010-06-26 14:43:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

Played through again, and tried to be sneaky.

I found your [first?] secret during the second puzzle. Thus, it must be obvious what I had to do to get it. I also noticed that during the first and second puzzle, you can pull the block into the pit of doom. Finally, I got the crystal stuck under the elevator. I presume you knew about this, but I did it just to note that it was possible.

2010-06-26 17:37:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

Thanks for the feedback. Did you trap it in a door / elevator, or did it break as you were pulling it out of the whole. It's unfourtunate if it's the latter. However, reset on death will solve this. There are numerous ways you can break the puzzles, through death, carelessness, or breaking things, hence the requirement for a reset.

I was pulling it out of a hole, then tck-chk!, and I couldn't grab it again.		2010-06-26 17:52:00

Author:
Valgee
Posts: 105

I think I broke it!
On the third puzzle, the wrong colour key opens up the green door - but when the key is taken out the green door doesn't close quickly enough - so I get stuck and then can't get out! I also got killed by this door - which means when I die, and run up there again because both keys on the other side of the door, I can't get through :S - If that makes sense? Give it another go in abit. Great work so far though! One of the best levels I've seen!		2010-06-26 18:22:00

Author:
standby250
Posts: 1113

I had the death by door problem several times, but I think I only solved the demo because the last puzzle may have broken. The doors stopped by themselves at several locations other than halfway, ope or closed.2010-06-27 12:51:00

Author:
croissantbuncake
Posts: 572

OK , the door problem is just down to clearances and friction, so that's easily solvable. Good thing you guys brought it up not as it would have been a massive annoyance to fix up later on


Put it in the level description? Yeah, It's going in the comments, but people don't actually read them, remember?


Only other comment I can think of right now is that manipulating the 'crystals' can be a little fiddly, but I doubt there's much you can do about that. I have done everything I can think of so far - I've been through about 6 iterations of crystal design. After a while you get used to them and can flip them etc. quite easily.


Well... you could carefully design a puzzle like in your demitter demo room where the player is meant to fail, and they only know how to solve it after doing so. Thus a pop would reset the room. But I'd still have to tell them. I've found that people in this game don't tend to pop, even when it's an obvious solution, and in this case it wouldn't be.


I also noticed that during the first and second puzzle, you can pull the block into the pit of doom. You can also spawn a new cube...


Finally, I got the crystal stuck under the elevator. I presume you knew about this, but I did it just to note that it was possible. Yep, I would like the elevator to crush the crystals (and cubes) in this case, but the connector strengths are a bit of an issue. Again, popping / respawning a new cube is the only real solution.[/QUOTE]		2010-06-27 21:39:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

I think the best part of the demo was the dark matter bridge... o.O

Nah, I liked the puzzles. Very challenging and the level was beautiful. I didn't run into any noticeable problems. It went smooth for me :]		2010-06-27 21:46:00

Author:
piggabling
Posts: 2979

I'm afraid the dark matter bridge is gone However, in its place are improvements.

Hopefully doors should no longer stick open. Let me know if they do.

There is also a spangley failure safety and group respawn system. It works in the following manner:

When a player dies, they do not automatically respawn until:
Everyone in the group is dead OR
Someone still alive returns to the checkpoint to revive them.

If all players die, they will all respawn.
If all players die, the puzzle after the checkpoint will reset.
Crystals are returned to their original positions.
Cubes are sucked back into the cube dispenser.

Reset is triggered whether death occurs due to normal death or suicide, but only if all players die.


Essentially, it's the reset on death feature I was talking about. It might be a tad flakey, but now it should be impossible to break the level, maybe. It's currently a bit buggy (visually) in online play as the camera will zoom off for a moment before respawn

edit - Oh yeah, and it's stupid. After puzzle 2, if you complete the puzzle and then die, it'll kindly reset it for you :hero: I'll probably add some intelligence to the failure safety at the very end of dev.


incinerator: I've not fixed up the cube spawn with no sound issue, but it's on the to-do list, I need to decide if what I'm planning for it is the best option, is all.		2010-06-28 21:23:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

I've just played again and tried my best to break something but failed miserably. It all seems pretty failsafe right now. The third puzzle took me about 20 minutes to figure out and if thats the kind of deviousness we can expect throughout, this is gonna be one tough cookie to crumble. Whoever it was who said the crystals can be a pain to slot in was right though...they are. Mind you, I remember a certain screw that topped your crystals in that respect, lol.

Visually things are looking superb, with nice little cosmetic touches such as the steam coming from vents. Not sure why you put in the level description that it's visually glitchy, unless you mean the DM. I assume that the random DM squares in various places will be gone in the final version though, yes?

Did comph say he found a secret or was that my imagination? I did search quite extensively for hidden areas but found nothing, so my hat off to comph if he found one!

Anyways, the level seems to be coming along nicely. I'm actually looking forward to christmas now! 		2010-06-28 23:16:00

Author:
Ungreth
Posts: 2130

Yeah, I finded a secret. It's very sneaky. 2010-06-29 00:38:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

Whoever it was who said the crystals can be a pain to slot in was right though...they are. Generally, it's easiest to push them into the slot gently, rather than drag them over (althugh the latter isn't to bad if you get used to exactly when to jump. When they go upside down the best bet is to pull/pull them along little way and then let go - the friction flips them over quite neatly. Use x to pull them out of slots. If you get stuck in a slot, jump out without holding onto a crystal. Once you have those four tips down, it should be a breeze manipulating them I'll be sure to make the puzzles devious enough that you'll get plenty of practice.


Not sure why you put in the level description that it's visually glitchy Group respawn is visually glitchy, I think due to lag. You won't notice it in single player.		2010-06-29 01:09:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Yeah, I finded a secret. It's very sneaky.

Can I have a hint at what it is/looks like, so I'll know it when I see it? I found two random crevices in the walls in the level, and one took a bit of cube-cheating to get into...

BTW, I was able to pull the 2nd puzzle's green cube out from the wall area, and I was able to pull the red and green cube from the last puzzle to the scoreboard ... I uploaded pictures only to find out that you already uploaded an example. D'oh!		2010-06-29 01:17:00

Author:
Incinerator22
Posts: 3251

Can I have a hint at what it is/looks like, so I'll know it when I see it? I found two random crevices in the walls in the level, and one took a bit of cube-cheating to get into...

*cough* Nicely done.		2010-06-29 01:21:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

Yeah being able to pull the cubes out has been a known issue for some time. Since making the cubes heavier it's become harder and AFAIK the only way to do it is a real struggle (positioning the cube just right then taking a while to yank it through). I don't really think it's going to make any of the puzzles significantly easier / quicker so I'm not too bothered.2010-06-29 01:26:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Hey - I'll play through later and try my very best to break it


Oh and by the way, yesterday or the day before I accidently broke one of the diamond keys. Would these new changes prevent that happening again?		2010-06-29 01:31:00

Author:
standby250
Posts: 1113

It won't stop you from breaking things, but if you pop yourself, the whole puzzle resets, so you'd get a new crystal, fully intact

This is possibly gonna be my last post for a couple of days, but leave anything you think is relevant and I'll get back to you later in the week.		2010-06-29 01:35:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

I'll jump in when you're logged if you don't mind rtm.
It's always better to see people playing the level before actually having feedbacks.
So, I'll bug you as soon as I see you online.

EDIT:
Just read that you won't be online, so I'll bug comphy 		2010-06-29 17:38:00

Author:
OmegaSlayer
Posts: 5112

This is possibly gonna be my last post for a couple of days, but leave anything you think is relevant and I'll get back to you later in the week.

Wh-Why!? 		2010-06-29 21:28:00

Author:
Incinerator22
Posts: 3251

I had a run through with comphy yesterday.
The level, though clearly distant from finishing, is awesome.
I got a bit puzzled at the final puzzle.
The thing that I found annoying is that the player has no idea of the door's behaviour until he tries to open them.
Maybe some leds, I don't know...		2010-06-30 09:31:00

Author:
OmegaSlayer
Posts: 5112

Well I played it and no problems there. The last puzzle was trickier than I remembered - but Oh well, I did it in the end. Still in love with those checkpoints, and the failure system seemed to work well.

Found your secret area . Very, very sneaky!		2010-06-30 16:55:00

Author:
standby250
Posts: 1113

Wh-Why!?

I'm not at home. I am now back home, but I'm going away again at the weekend, darn my complex social life not letting me stay in to play computer games


I had a run through with comphy yesterday.
The level, though clearly distant from finishing, is awesome.
I got a bit puzzled at the final puzzle.
The thing that I found annoying is that the player has no idea of the door's behaviour until he tries to open them.
Maybe some leds, I don't know...
I assume you mean that there is no indication that the wrong colour crystal can be used in the third puzzle. This is one of the key things I have to teach the player and this puzzle is intended to do just that. It does require a little bit of trial and error, but technically, there is no other action you can possibly take. Hopefully it won't take people too long to realise they should try that and when they do, I'd hope the mechanism is understood for the later puzzles.


Well I played it and no problems there. The last puzzle was trickier than I remembered - but Oh well, I did it in the end. Still in love with those checkpoints, and the failure system seemed to work well.
Apparently not in multiplay - I got a PSN message from comphy saying that the group respawn failed to work properly for him and omegaslayer. ATM I think it's a network lag thing, but I don't know for sure. I can possibly get the mechanism more reliable but IDK...

Anyone got a really laggy connection so I can see how often this happens??		2010-07-02 11:31:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

I've commented on the level in LBP but I thought i might as well tell you here. first of all I would just like to say this level is amazing aesthetically and gameplay wise. But I don't know if I'm doing the last puzzle correctly . Once I get the cube, I place it under the left green door so that only the very edge of the cube is under the door. This allows me to drag the crystal into the section between the two green doors. Then, using every ounce of strength left in my sackboys body, I pull the cube out from under the door and use it to hold open the second green door. You can bring both of the crystals through and your done!

Now, I find it hard to believe that RTM the perfectionist would make the player delicately place the edge of a cube under a door then make them pull on it hammering X to pull it free again after dragging the crystal through. But I have no idea how its supposed to be done!

Maybe you should have an emitter on the cube which spawns a small piece of DM in the cube constantly (or use some fancy demitting logic) when the tip of the door comes in range. This way, the cube will be impossible to move when it is incontact with the door. But then you'll hear the sound of the DM disappearing ... I'm sure you can come up with something better.		2010-07-08 18:40:00

Author:
R0GUE--Elite
Posts: 118

OK, little thought experiment for you:

A green crystal can spawn a green cube.
A blue crystal can spawn a blue cube.
How many cubes can you spawn if you have both a blue and a green crystal?


I'm aware of the door thing. It's mildly annoying but I think for the most part I'm going to have to leave it in. Having a system to block the cube from moving is a possibility, but it comes with so many complications I don't think it's going to be feasible. I can possibly tweak the connectors to make it harder to remove the cube, but I think they are already pretty much as strong as they can be without crushing the objects below All I can do is possibly make it slightly harder to pull the cube out, I don't think I can make it impossible....		2010-07-08 19:05:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

A green crystal can spawn a green cube.
A blue crystal can spawn a blue cube.

I think the point is that the cube-spawning 'machine' can be ambiguous and/or counter-intuitive. The color-coding on the spawning device is easily interpreted as "any colored crystal will spawn a cube", rather than "each color crystal spawns a different colored cube". In fact that's how I originally interpreted it, and it's now clear I'm not the only one.

Similarly, I also found the crystal slots to be counter-intuitive. I suspect most people would think "a red crystal activates a red slot, and green for green, etc." - the idea that a red crystal half-activates a green slot is not something that's going to be obvious - it's something which is only going to be solved by trial and error.

I'm not sure whether this is intentional or not, but I think it will cause a lot of players to give up quite early on in the level.		2010-07-08 19:19:00

Author:
Aya042
Posts: 2870

I think the point is that the cube-spawning 'machine' can be ambiguous and/or counter-intuitive. The color-coding on the spawning device is easily interpreted as "any colored crystal will spawn a cube", rather than "each color crystal spawns a different colored cube". In fact that's how I originally interpreted it, and it's now clear I'm not the only one. Similarly, I also found the crystal slots to be counter-intuitive. I suspect most people would think "a red crystal activates a red slot, and green for green, etc." - the idea that a red crystal half-activates a green slot is not something that's going to be obvious - it's something which is only going to be solved by trial and error.
That is true, but a little bit of trial and error is entirely what the first few puzzles are about. After puzzle three you pretty much have all the trial and error done with (you have to work out what happens with a half powered lift in puzzle 4 but that's more remembering the wrong coloured slot thing and then observing what happens). Also, the deal with the wrong colour crystals... I do put you in a room where the only thing you can possibly do, is put the wrong colour crystal in the slot, it's that or do nothing.

The cube dispenser is a slightly different issue, as you aren't directly forced to put the second crystal in there. IDK, I would have thought the combinations of numerous clues re the cubes would have been enough to get people to the solution with a bit of lateral thinking and experimentation. Admittedly, I do have the issue that rogue-elite got to the wrong solution, through a little bit of lateral thinking lol.

I don't think the crystals need much more explanation. If someone quits because I put them in a room with one available action (albeit a counterintuitive one) and they don't "get" it, then they'll quit out before the end of the level anyway, I can guarantee it. Cubes might need a rethink on how the 2 cubes issue is introduced...


I suppose I could add in a cheeky conditional clue - if the player gets through that puzzle without spawning both types of cube add a "well why didn't I think of that" kinda message. It would go against the aims of no text, but could be easily added.		2010-07-08 19:41:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Yeah, thats a good idea. If the player finds a shneaky way around a puzzle, something happens to indicate to the player that the creator/level/AI knows about this shneaky behaviour. Maybe even punishing them somehow in the next puzzle room. I don't know if it would be to harsh to kill the player if they cheat (like, a warning siren sounds and a short message like;"I gave you a chance to earn your freedom, but you broke the rules. No cake for you", then gas starts flooding in through vents in the room).
The only other solution I can think of to stop my cheat from working would be to sharpen the corners and not have that 45degree slant. although this would make 'em look ugly so don't do that .		2010-07-08 20:18:00

Author:
R0GUE--Elite
Posts: 118

Also, the deal with the wrong colour crystals... I do put you in a room where the only thing you can possibly do, is put the wrong colour crystal in the slot, it's that or do nothing.

I just replayed the level, and I now remember why I thought the "crystals half-operating slots of different colors" to be a potential issue.

When you get to puzzle #3, you have an accessible red crystal, red slot and green slot, and an inaccessible green crystal and green slot. So I initially thought, "well clearly a red crystal ain't gonna work in a green slot, so you have to somehow get the green crystal from the previous puzzle here to open that door". Then when I figured there was no way to make the lift operate without the crystal in it, I then started backtracking to puzzle #1 to see if there was a crystal there I could bring forward to the later puzzles. It was only after wasting all that time, that I thought, "well, the only possible thing left to try is the crystal in the wrong colored slot".

The ambiguity also stems from whether the player interprets each of the three puzzles as separate challenges distinct from the each other (i.e. the crystals are not meant to be moved between the puzzles), or whether the whole lot is one big puzzle where you might think you have to move crystals between the puzzles to solve them.

I think puzzle #3 could work better if you simply swapped the starting positions of the two crystals. It adds a couple of extra steps to the solution, but the visual feedback of the first door half-opening as soon as you approach it makes it very obvious that crystals half-operate slots of the wrong color.



The cube dispenser is a slightly different issue, as you aren't directly forced to put the second crystal in there. IDK, I would have thought the combinations of numerous clues re the cubes would have been enough to get people to the solution with a bit of lateral thinking and experimentation. Admittedly, I do have the issue that rogue-elite got to the wrong solution, through a little bit of lateral thinking lol.

That's a bit more tricky, and arguably more pervasive since many of the comments on this thread so far have mentioned the idea of trying to block a door with a cube then yanking it out the other side.

It's certain ambiguous, but the only reason I said it was "counter-intuititive" was from playing comph's levels which have cube spawners, and you kinda get used to the idea that each spawner only spawns one cube, so you can blame him (as usual).

If there's a simple way to reinforce the idea that crystal color determines block color, that might suffice. Possibly even just changing the first puzzle color from blue to red. Sounds strange, but the first two puzzles use blue and green respectively, which look similar enough that I didn't even notice that the color was different between the first two puzzles, or indeed that the block color matched the crystal color. It was only after spawning the red cube that I noticed the colors matched.

Edit: Just after I posted that, my controller switched off, and when I turned it back on again, I spawned from an off-screen checkpoint on top of the level. That might be another thing you need to look at. 		2010-07-08 20:57:00

Author:
Aya042
Posts: 2870

When you get to puzzle #3, you have an accessible red crystal, red slot and green slot, and an inaccessible green crystal and green slot. So I initially thought, "well clearly a red crystal ain't gonna work in a green slot, so you have to somehow get the green crystal from the previous puzzle here to open that door". Then when I figured there was no way to make the lift operate without the crystal in it, I then started backtracking to puzzle #1 to see if there was a crystal there I could bring forward to the later puzzles. It was only after wasting all that time, that I thought, "well, the only possible thing left to try is the crystal in the wrong colored slot".

You can't backtrack to puzzle 1. And I'm pretty sure I can prevent backtracking between all the puzzles without too much hassle - I kinda intended this to be the case anyways. It's just that the example puzzle is incomplete.


I think puzzle #3 could work better if you simply swapped the starting positions of the two crystals. It adds a couple of extra steps to the solution, but the visual feedback of the first door half-opening as soon as you approach it makes it very obvious that crystals half-operate slots of the wrong color.
I'd rather no do that TBH, I think if they are placed in a more confined area when they reach that puzzle, so there is no way they could go anywhere else then forcing them to focus on the




If there's a simple way to reinforce the idea that crystal color determines block color, that might suffice. Possibly even just changing the first puzzle color from blue to red. Sounds strange, but the first two puzzles use blue and green respectively, which look similar enough that I didn't even notice that the color was different between the first two puzzles, or indeed that the block color matched the crystal color. It was only after spawning the red cube that I noticed the colors matched. Nah this sounds fine, I was only avoiding the red because it's a less pleasant hue and I still haven't got it right lol.


Edit: Just after I posted that, my controller switched off, and when I turned it back on again, I spawned from an off-screen checkpoint on top of the level. That might be another thing you need to look at.
Turns out this is an issue with proximity switches in general (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=30022-Bug-Proximity-Sensor-Switches-when-controller-is-switched-off). Apparently, a controller turning off doesn't qualify as a sackperson not being there. Obviously Looks like there is even more issue with forced group respawn. Gah, I really wonder if this is worth it sometimes 		2010-07-08 21:33:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

For the issue with the player not knowing that different crystals spawn corresponding colours cubes, you could use a trail of lights that are the same colour as the crystal in the socket leading up to the dispenser. There could also be spotlight (of the same colour) shining out of the tube where the cube comes from linked to a speed output mag switch with the key on a flipper piston (you know what I mean..) so it fades out again. this would blatantly indicate to the player that the crystal colour has an effect on the cube colour.2010-07-08 21:49:00

Author:
R0GUE--Elite
Posts: 118

For the issue with the player not knowing that different crystals spawn corresponding colours cubes, you could use a trail of lights that are the same colour as the crystal in the socket leading up to the dispenser. There could also be spotlight (of the same colour) shining out of the tube where the cube comes from linked to a speed output mag switch with the key on a flipper piston (you know what I mean..) so it fades out again. this would blatantly indicate to the player that the crystal colour has an effect on the cube colour.

He hasn't got a spotlight, but he does have leds that light up accordindly.

On the topic of cube color confusion. I didn't find it that bad when I played the level initially however many months ago (and that was without the primer levels), but you may have described it to me before-hand. I do like the idea of approaching the puzzle with the crystal in the wrong slot to illustrate a point. It's very "psychological testing"-style in my mind... whatever that means.		2010-07-08 22:05:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

There already is lighting changes to indicate that the crystal colour is related to the cube colour. As you place the crystal in the backplate symbol lights up in the appropriate colour. When you spawn the cube, the R1 panel lights up that colour (mostly because the cube being dispensed is that colour too. I don't think any colour coded cues are going to help as they clearly aren't going to twig until you've actually put a second crystal in the dispenser.

In fact even aya's make them spawn a red cube before hand will probably hardly help at all. On the third puzzle, the most likely colour you will spawn first is red, unless you are faffing around a bit. I can change one of the previous puzzles to make it red, but I honestly don't think there is any way to indicate to people in advance without explicitly stating: "put two different colour crystals in the hole. Do it. Now!"


I could do the crystal in the wrong hole thing. It's not going to make me happy though, I must say.		2010-07-08 22:07:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

I'd rather no do that TBH, I think if they are placed in a more confined area when they reach that puzzle, so there is no way they could go anywhere else then forcing them to focus on the

...?

Well, this is definately the less significant of the two issues. I just thought the idea of having one of the early puzzles start with a crystal in the wrong colored slot would provide extra clarity to something that is very counter-intuitive for LBP, after all, the whole mag key/switch paradigm is based on the simple premise of matching colors.



Nah this sounds fine, I was only avoiding the red because it's a less pleasant hue and I still haven't got it right lol.

I thought the red was quite striking actually.

I figured it was a minor change which might help, although there are some more radical approaches, but these would probably be a complete pain to change at this stage in development.



Turns out this is an issue with proximity switches in general (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=30022-Bug-Proximity-Sensor-Switches-when-controller-is-switched-off). Apparently, a controller turning off doesn't qualify as a sackperson not being there. Obviously Looks like there is even more issue with forced group respawn. Gah, I really wonder if this is worth it sometimes

Harsh. Well. I wouldn't worry too much about it. It's a pretty unlikely occurrence, although it did give me a chance to look at some of the other parts of the level.



There already is lighting changes to indicate that the crystal colour is related to the cube colour. As you place the crystal in the backplate symbol lights up in the appropriate colour. When you spawn the cube, the R1 panel lights up that colour (mostly because the cube being dispensed is that colour too.

Right, but I didn't notice that till you mentioned it.



In fact even aya's make them spawn a red cube before hand will probably hardly help at all. On the third puzzle, the most likely colour you will spawn first is red, unless you are faffing around a bit.

Really?

Once I figured out that the wrong crystal only opens halfway, then I realised I'd have to put the red key back in the first hole to be able to get a block past the first door, so I spawned a green one first. Indeed, if you spawn a red one first, you have to go back and faff about to get the thing past the first door.



I can change one of the previous puzzles to make it red, but I honestly don't think there is any way to indicate to people in advance without explicitly stating: "put two different colour crystals in the hole. Do it. Now!"

Yeah. It's a very minor thing, but bear in mind you haven't picked red/green/blue, you've picked red/green/cyan, and cyan contains as much green as it does blue, so it's almost like picking red/green/green, from the POV of the retina anyway.		2010-07-08 22:37:00

Author:
Aya042
Posts: 2870

OK, after going fo a run I have thought up a plan of action:
Ensure every puzzle is separated from the previous (probs by some platforming of some kind)
Modify puzzle 1/2 to be red, to emphasise the multiple cube colours
Modify puzzle 3 so that it only requires a single cube
Modify puzzle 3 so that the crystal is in the wrong hole to begin with
Add in puzzle 4, which requires no trial and error and does not require a second cube, merely introduces half power elevators
Design a puzzle for puzzle 5 that will require the player to use two cubes - cannot be cheated.
Then add in the tricky puzzles.


Thoughts?

This is a far slower progression than I had wanted TBH, but looking at the responses it still might not be enough and I might be forced to resurect my antagonist (which will basically make this into a portal-esque scenario, even more so that it already is).		2010-07-08 23:39:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

You know that my vote goes for steep progression. I guess it depends on what you are going for? Who is your audience?2010-07-09 04:34:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

I agree. Make it the way you want it to be, use our feedback as it suits you. There must have been playtesters who thought Subterranean Setbacks was hell to complete, but did that stop you? 2010-07-10 20:28:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

I don't think this is an issue of making the level easier, or worrying about the audience. It's important that the early puzzle teach the concepts that I need them to teach to the players. In that respect, I don't think I'm currently getting it right. The plan is in motion though and I don't think I'll have to sacrifice anything important to improve it

Wanted to do lots of work this weekend, but it's been scorching hot, so I didn't spend too much time inside on the PS3 		2010-07-11 17:46:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497


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