Archive: 33 posts

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I'm not talking about the type we have to make like in LogicPack, I'm talking about a more simple tool where theres a switch and you just connect it to different lights/emmiters etc. and it turns them on randomly...so simple that you could put two of them and make two lights/emmiters etc. go on at the same time if your really random. or has this already been said? if it is then my bad surely someone has thought about it

2010-06-10 02:18:00 Author: wolverine_2008 Posts: 304

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I like this idea ! Although we have the logic, it would be simpler, and a tad more thermo friendly. (even if it is hardly at all) Thanks for the idea

2010-06-10 02:22:00 Author: EvasiveSpoon Posts: 119

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no problem

2010-06-10 02:24:00 Author: wolverine_2008 Posts: 304

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They did already confirm in the magazines (not sire if in EDGE or G.I. or both) that they WILL have a randomizer tool, so hurray!

2010-06-10 02:29:00 Author: Silverleon Posts: 6707

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! Thanks for the info, Silver. Looks like i'm going to have to look up more info on LBP2 :O i'm getting out of the loop T.T!

2010-06-10 02:31:00 Author: EvasiveSpoon Posts: 119

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Well, someone said, a randomizer is gonna be an object in LBP2. As I wrote in that other thread: With none of the currenty existing logic, real (or close to real) randomization is achievable. So, a completly new feature. It could ranomize your entrance-gate for example. That doesn't work yet, since currently the only unpredictable element in any level is player input.

2010-06-10 02:35:00 Author: Xario Posts: 238

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! Thanks for the info, Silver. Looks like i'm going to have to look up more info on LBP2 :O i'm getting out of the loop T.T! You should check the "What we know so far" thread in the LBP2 section m8, it has a lot of info on it. Well, someone said, a randomizer is gonna be an object in LBP2. As I wrote in that other thread: With none of the currenty existing logic, real (or close to real) randomization is achievable. So, a completly new feature. It could ranomize your entrance-gate for example. That doesn't work yet, since currently the only unpredictable element in any level is player input. Um...you do realize they mean like a tool and not a built object...right? They are the game programmers you know? They don't build the jetpack/ paintinator/ scuba gear and stuff with materials... Its like saying it would've been impossible to build a scuba gear object because people can't build something to make sackboy breath underwater... >_>

2010-06-10 02:47:00 Author: Silverleon Posts: 6707

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Um...you do realize they mean like a tool and not a built object...right? Eh, I don't know if there is a coherent and stringent language usage, I've read, its gonna be a "chip". That means, the randomizer uses this new logic-microchip engine, which I recall as holgraphic in nature, which I interpret as "non-physical" which could open the door towards real (or close to real) rndmztion. Therefore I see it as a tool, which may or may not be incorporated into an object, which we may or may not be able to reproduze from scratch. But it will most likely add a new function to LBP, a function, that currently is not possible to implement, though existing self-made pieces of logic (you'd call those "objects", I guess?) can be used as a workaround in mostly any case. But they all are physical objects, which makes them determined. I expect the randomizer to be not-determined. I might miss your point though, please specifiy then. PS: I really don't get your scuba example. I try another one: The scoreboard: That's a tool (for ending a level. And it's the only one). It's also an object, a very creator-unfriendly one: Disassembling and scaling works only with tricks. As an object it can be reproduced by us visually (or closely), but not functionally. It also has certain object-properties, like "physics apply" and "corner tool resistant", the bottom piece is not resistant to material change, in contrast to its back piece. And finally: It contains a funtion (which is tied to the back piece), something like: Any player, who comes into a certain area in front of the thin, vertical cardboard, will trigger the "level finished event". The function has a tweak menu, but it's somewhat rather limited. I might just imagine it, but I think you can plug a switch to the scoreboard (for remote triggering, just like checkpoints), that means you metaphorically plug the function, via plugging the piece of the object it is tied to. And the function is unique and not reverse engineerable in create. Not even close. So, a mag switch is an object with no physical properties (not even layer discrimination). It also is a tool and it has a unique function (a very strong one). The square shape is a tool with an un-uniqe function but not an object; materials are nothing but a bunch of properties for physical objects, while only one material carries a function (maybe it's also a property): dissolve. In contrast: The tree, thats used in LBP's logo is an object (with physics) but I wouldn't call it a tool and it has no function (besides filling the thermo ) Do you agree so far?

2010-06-10 03:37:00 Author: Xario Posts: 238

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(at least) The EDGE article confirmed it. I think it was called Randomizer Chip

2010-06-10 11:50:00 Author: Unknown User

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oh cool so it has been confirmed but not really there yet? or has it not been confirmed because it hasn't been made yet but its possible...

2010-06-10 15:49:00 Author: wolverine_2008 Posts: 304

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Give up. HAS been confirmed in (at least) in the EDGE article. Direct quotes: ?I hope no one gets annoyed with the random gadget,? worries Healey. ?People have spent ages making their random devices, and now it's a single object.? And that means logic is now portable. ?It's a great thing for sharing,? Healey continues. ?For LBP?s end boss, the logic took up most of the level and was ridiculous ? it was like old mobile phones with a battery that came in a case. Now, you can put it in a microchip and give it away as a toy.? 'The stage has been ready-rigged ? two torches are wired to flash on and off, but it's down to Pang to arrange and shoot it. He records a dance and applies it to all the sackbots by dragging a selection tool around them and places three cutscene cameras around the scene, setting their angle, zoom, depth of field, camera shake and transitions including cross-fade and zoom-fade. He then wires them to a randomiser gadget, sets the level to play, and that?s the job done. The result, a pulsing, restless series of shots of crazily dressed gyrating sackbots, is surprisingly effective.' I'd say that is confirmed. If it was unsure, they wouldn't talk about it. That's why they keeps the rest of the mystery powerups still in the dark with mist, fog, blinds and curtains.

2010-06-11 06:23:00 Author: Unknown User

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Yeah that sounds like a pretty solid confirmation. I however don't get Marc's statement “People have spent ages making their random devices, and now it’s a single object.” He is making the same mistake we've been arguing about several times. Nothing they add will render your own hyper-perfect randomizer useless and actually it's to be expected a new feature, cause self-contained, input-independant randomness can not be archived yet. It can't. Sorry, if I sound like a prayer wheel, but honestly: It can't currently. <--- will test the new random-tool for statistical uses. Shame on the devs, if it's rigged randomnez.

2010-06-11 15:40:00 Author: Xario Posts: 238

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In fairness, unless you need a random event to happen straight away in your level, it's perfectly possible to create a randomiser that is random enough for the purposes of the game. The only other awkwardness with current system is emitting objects which are randomised at the point of emitting - not impossible but annoying nonetheless. However, having it compressed down to a single tool is great news.

2010-06-11 16:03:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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@rtm: Well, yeah. My main counter-example would be random entrance gate. Since we're discussing the boundaries of LBP in that other thread: A randomfunction (+ AND- and OR-gates) is actually something everyone would expect from a modern programming language, so it's an important step for expanding those boundaries. You know what a bummer it was, realizing while creating my first level, that everything only takes ONE plug?! And how long it took me to come up with the idea of building an AND-switch? (2 dissolves, glass with magkey falls in range of magswitch)...well it was not as long as it took me to find those switches in-use ingame and certainly less time than to figure out, that others worked on this problem before I did ... Anyway, where was I? Randomizer, right: What about unprobable outcomes? The logic-pack-rndmzr for example seems to me quite balanced, which satisfies most aspects of randomness, but not all. And it will repeat its pattern eventually Btw: Do you know how long that takes?

2010-06-11 16:53:00 Author: Xario Posts: 238

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Yeah that sounds like a pretty solid confirmation. I however don't get Marc's statement “People have spent ages making their random devices, and now it’s a single object.” He is making the same mistake we've been arguing about several times. Nothing they add will render your own hyper-perfect randomizer useless and actually it's to be expected a new feature, cause self-contained, input-independant randomness can not be archived yet. It can't. Sorry, if I sound like a prayer wheel, but honestly: It can't currently. <--- will test the new random-tool for statistical uses. Shame on the devs, if it's rigged randomnez. As i've said in oh so many similar "its impossible" arguments m8: That you can't do it doesn't mean its impossible. Just be happy they'll be giving us a randomizer m8, and stop picking at the little details.

2010-06-11 17:34:00 Author: Silverleon Posts: 6707

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I am looking forward to the randomizer. I hope it can randomize multiple things, like if I let it control a number of light, each light will flash random, but each light would also flash at a different randomness than the other ones. I would enjoy that. If it's thermo efficient of course. Horror level, here we go! And I wonder how pistons would be affected, if it's possible to let randomizers control them. Would On/Off function be like turning it on or off now and then? Would the Directional just send it to one side, and then another, randomly? Would the Speed option make it change speed all the time? I hope for the last one, because there's a survival level I have had in mind which could use that.

2010-06-11 18:27:00 Author: moonwire Posts: 1627

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As i've said in oh so many similar "its impossible" arguments m8: That you can't do it doesn't mean its impossible. Genuine argument generally and especially since I make mistakes. You do however know, given a set of rules, one can often proof, that there are things that are impossible to achieve within this rule frame - no workarounds, the only possibility is to extend the frame. So, finite time and and any physical event must be calculable, I'd say input-free randomness is currently impossible (I'm not alone) rtm's post was spot on. Just be happy they'll be giving us a randomizer I am, and not just because "it's small and official" but because of this-little-detail-I-am-picking-about. And if even Mark fails to phrase that in an interview, given the current thread, this: stop picking at the little details. I am not going to do. Since everything that happens here is ...exactly that No offence, just saying.

2010-06-11 19:13:00 Author: Xario Posts: 238

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I was thinking that you use the switch with more than just one object like you have 6 lights for example, and you want to randomize which light would turn on and wich lights will stay off, as for the speed, it randomizes how fast and how slow objects could go. As for direction how ever...lets say that you have 6 different objects with pistons attatched to them, then the randomizer would randomize which one of those objects would change direction. I hope I'm not confusing anyone

2010-06-14 18:40:00 Author: wolverine_2008 Posts: 304

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My guess its that its gonna acti just like swutches (or perhaps it's gonna be included as an option IN the switches.) if its individual, it would have the same options of switches (On/off, <---/--->, Speed, etc you know? Like i said, just a blind guess tho.

2010-06-14 19:04:00 Author: Silverleon Posts: 6707

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[...]Like i said, just a blind guess tho. We all do, right? :-D Or say: I have no idea how the microchip based logic is gonna work.

2010-06-14 20:33:00 Author: Xario Posts: 238

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There has to be a way to make true randomization based on coding outside of the game, I would hope... It would make it possible to make RPG's with a random tolerance in the amount of damage given to an enemy per turn, or a roll of the 'dice' for any board/strategy game, right?

2010-06-15 18:46:00 Author: miltonTPS Posts: 126

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There has to be a way to make true randomization based on coding outside of the game, I would hope... Short answer: No, Long answer: Well, sort of. Proper answer: Computers don't do random, but they can mimic it well enough to fool us, and that is what counts

2010-06-15 18:55:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Confirmed!!! In a video of someone building a UFO of some sort. I saw a switch that was shaped like a question mark and said "Randomizer"

2010-08-17 14:43:00 Author: Pontihog Posts: 22

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You quite late either way

2010-08-17 14:55:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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I wunder how they do the random. If I would do it, I'd take the system clock, and feed the numbers to an ridiculoysly complex algorithm. Computers can't pick one completely random, can they?

2010-08-17 15:43:00 Author: Unknown User

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A truly random number is actually always based on something. Called a "seeded" random generator. So for example, you base your random number generator on the temperature outside Mm's office.

2010-08-18 05:24:00 Author: Moony Posts: 368

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I like the system clock idea. Hours minutes seconds equals output

2010-08-18 05:35:00 Author: poorjack Posts: 1806

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But that's only pseudo-random.

2010-08-18 05:49:00 Author: Moony Posts: 368

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or... year, month, day, hour, minute, second, millisecond + time of day in UK + amount of time played by creator= output

2010-08-18 07:28:00 Author: poorjack Posts: 1806

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That's random because of the amount of time played by the creator.

2010-08-18 08:26:00 Author: Moony Posts: 368

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They don't need to do a weird algorithm involving times and dates, etc. because most coding languages have a Math random function anyway that would be more than good enough for triggering random events in LBP2. No algorithm would ever be random anyway. Computers are incapable of choosing a random number, they have to use some sort of method.

2010-08-18 13:40:00 Author: alexbull_uk Posts: 1287

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In programing there common function used in many many systems in it's core, called rnd(). it randomize (somehow.. what ever they use it works good) number between 0 and 1, with few digits after dot, by multiplying, dividing and rounding (round(), floor())ect .this number you can practicly get any form randomness what ever you want. In other words rnd() method is philosopher stone of randomness ;] And one more point, usally hardware (CPU?) or system kernel taking care of randomization and software developers don't have any control over this.

2010-08-18 16:10:00 Author: Shadowriver Posts: 3991

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The Math random function has to have a varying "seed" number of something ;D

2010-08-18 17:16:00 Author: Unknown User

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