Archive: 24 posts

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Especially when making logic, the obscure motor bolt speed setting system has boggled me times-a-plenty. If someone knows what the number translates to, please share the knowledge Here's Teh System I came up with to replace it... The speed would come from 2 variables; the time 'x' the bolt takes to go 'y' revolutions. For example, 5 secs to 3 revolutions. The increment/decrement could be 0.5. Would make it much more easier to use, wouldn't it? Set time and how many revolutions the bolt makes in that time.

2010-05-29 16:47:00 Author: Unknown User

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I believe the number is the number of degrees the wheel turns in 0.1 seconds. I'm not entirely positive, because I can't remember where I read that.

2010-05-29 16:50:00 Author: thekevinexpress Posts: 256

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Ok, this is how it works, 0.0 = Stop 1.0 = Really slow 60 = Really fast No but seriously, i think its fine like that, its simple and easy, just increase the number or decrease the number for speed, and adjust it t whateveer you want little by little. Actually i believe people would get more confused with your method m8, specially younger players.

2010-05-29 17:29:00 Author: Silverleon Posts: 6707

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Thekevinexpress is right, it's the number of degrees the bolt turns in 0,1s.

2010-05-29 18:15:00 Author: Chamion B Posts: 124

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I can confirm that as well. That's exactly how Incremental Bolts (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=19915-Incremental-Bolt) work.

2010-05-29 18:17:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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Similarly, the bigger/smaller the diameter, the faster/slower the rotation. Fun Fact: A set of large grid circles with 10-strength 12-speed motor bolts connecting them to a light object will roll as fast as sackboy runs.

2010-05-30 10:35:00 Author: Incinerator22 Posts: 3251

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I don't think the system of mine is complex. Just tell it how many revolutions in how long time. Well, maybe I'm just slow. Better break in the calculator!

2010-05-30 17:37:00 Author: Unknown User

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What i mean is that with the current system there is no calcultion, if its going slower than you want to make it faster and vice-versa, it can be adjusted detailedly so it works fine!

2010-05-30 18:19:00 Author: Silverleon Posts: 6707

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I mean I would like to know how long it takes for it to make a revolution. I can calculate it now, but my method would easen up it.

2010-05-31 07:24:00 Author: Unknown User

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... I'm surprised no one has cared to bring up RPM (Revolutions-Per-Minute). (I think) the system works on how long it takes for the object to make a complete revolution, with the RPM increasing by a power of 2 for each numerical increase. In short, rate= number squared.. methinks.

2010-05-31 07:58:00 Author: Outlaw-Jack Posts: 5757

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0.2 on a motor bolt is exactly 1 rpm (takes 60 seconds to make a full rotation). 0.4 is 2 rpms, 0.8 is 4, 1 is 5 rpms, and so on. Every 0.2 you add to the motor bolt speed adds one rpm, so it's nothing to do with factors. If you set the motor to 60 then you'll get 300 rpms. It's late and I'm tired, so I'm probably wrong, but it would seem the math doesn't work out for the degrees. If it goes .2 degrees in .1 second, then that would equal to 2 degrees per second. If that were true, then in 60 seconds, it would only go 120 degrees: just a third of what it actually goes. Again, I'm half asleep right now, so there may be some obvious math thing I'm missing, and the degrees of rotation thing has worked when I've made incremental bolts, so I'm not sure where the discrepancy is.

2010-05-31 11:40:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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Similarly, the bigger/smaller the diameter, the faster/slower the rotation. Err. No. The rotation speed is the same. It may seem like it's faster with a big wheel, but the angle it sweeps out is the same. Rotation velocity is measured by angle. If you want to discuss linear velocity along the any point along the circle, then you need to do a calculation. It basically comes down to multiplying angular velocity by the distance from the center of the circle to the point. For more on that, compare the two wheels in the video below... 0.2 on a motor bolt is exactly 1 rpm (takes 60 seconds to make a full rotation). 0.4 is 2 rpms, 0.8 is 4, 1 is 5 rpms, and so on. Every 0.2 you add to the motor bolt speed adds one rpm, so it's nothing to do with factors. If you set the motor to 60 then you'll get 300 rpms. It's late and I'm tired, so I'm probably wrong, but it would seem the math doesn't work out for the degrees. If it goes .2 degrees in .1 second, then that would equal to 2 degrees per second. If that were true, then in 60 seconds, it would only go 120 degrees: just a third of what it actually goes. Again, I'm half asleep right now, so there may be some obvious math thing I'm missing, and the degrees of rotation thing has worked when I've made incremental bolts, so I'm not sure where the discrepancy is. Well, I think your math may yet be wrong, but we need to make an amendment to the above... The speed set on the motor bolt is the angle the bolt will sweep out it .033333 seconds! Now, this raises some very weird issues, for things such as the incremental bolt, as seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdnsPfZfE48 The speed is set to 45, and it sweeps out 90 degrees each .1 seconds. The math on that does not add up. I was lost for quite a while, actually, but after running some tests, I can confirm that it is .033333 seconds. Now, I think LBP does some rounding with that... and some pretty large truncating. It seems that at short times, it will just go straight to .05 seconds, but as you have shown, a motor bolt at speed .2 will sweep out 360 degrees in 60 seconds. Likewise, a motor bolt at speed .6 will sweep out 180 degrees in 10 seconds. So, basically, the formula is as follows: Speed = .03333 x Angle/Seconds I really have no idea why incremental bolts work, then. I think I am more confused now than when I first looked at this.

2010-05-31 13:11:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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Can't believe I never thought of this before. I knew the rpms and I knew incremental bolt theory, but I never compared the two. Perhaps results are getting thrown off by the momentum of the wheel? If it spins up to a speed of 45, it may not stop on a dime. I'm also wondering if a flipper piston with a .1 time really makes the full trip in 1/10 of a second.

2010-05-31 17:22:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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Well, incremental bolts work with emitters also... but not always switch-activated emitters. Weird stuff.

2010-05-31 17:53:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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I think I'm going to stich with the whole 'fast-slow' idea. Ask MM if they run another questionaire type thing. (Is FAQ the correct term?)

2010-05-31 23:31:00 Author: bs58qw Posts: 59

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@comphermc: Didn't we figure the "issue" with emitters and incremental bolts? In short: The wheel rotates its speed in degrees every 0,05s NOT 0,1s. And why is that? Well: My original design was made with a flipper-piston set at 0,1s, that does not mean that it is in MS-target-area in 0,1s. It means that it is in the target-area for 0,05s since it uses 0,05s for pulling the piston back to its orignal state. The thing with emitters is that they keep the MK in the MS-target-area for 0,1s so if your are using emitter you have to remember that it moves double its speed in degrees (when you are using 0,1s as lifetime).

2010-06-01 10:13:00 Author: Tamland Posts: 106

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Sure, but I've found that it's not .5 seconds, but .033333 seconds. For example, try to make a wheel with 1 rpm...

2010-06-01 11:39:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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That's what me system would make easier. Set time to 60s, revolutions to 1 = 1 RPM. Time to 30s, revolutions 1 = 2 RPM. Time to 60s, revolutions to 2 = 2 RPM. Basic dividing here. 5s, 3rev. ((60/5)x3 = 12x3 = 36 RPM.) << OMG SCARY! For the scared ones, set revolutions to 1 and just tinker with the time. Can't see why that wouldn't be better than the old system... more precise tweaking over the revolutions thingy.

2010-06-02 17:18:00 Author: Unknown User

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Sorry, is there a problem with incremental bolt theory? I'm not seeing it TBH. From sehven's post, a bolt of speed 1 should go at 5rpm = 30 degrees / second. (5*360/60) The incremental bolt trigger gives a 0.03333s on pulse, or if you like which will move the bolt above by (30 * 0.33333) degrees, which comes out at 1 degree. Hence a speed of 1 gives a 1 degree rotation per pulse. So all works out fine. Or was it the 0.033333s result that was confusing? 30Hz appears to be the minimum switching time on certain switch types. For example, I have made piston relays that travel their entire distance (theoretically) in 0.0025s (i.e 20x faster than normally), so should be able to propogate pretty darn fast, however, they switch at 0.033333s regardless. This is using directional signals and at a guess I'd say that it's the same for on/offs (although I'm not sure, I did try something with them yesterday). I forget what switching rates Aya got up to with 1-shot switches. What is curious is the fact that you can't seem to get 0.066666s pulses out of 0.1s flipper pistons (I've tried), although I have some idea of why that may be, I'm really not sure. But yes, a different system that related to some real world units would certainly be useful. At the moment it is just rpm/5, so a straight conversion to rpm would make sense, at least rpm actually means something

2010-06-02 17:37:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Yay, someone is finally with my idea!

2010-06-02 17:48:00 Author: Unknown User

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Or instead of two sliders, just make the existing one RPM.

2010-06-03 02:03:00 Author: KablooieKablam Posts: 364

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The incremental bolt trigger gives a 0.03333s on pulse, That's the part that's been messing me up. I don't understand why a .1s flipper isn't giving a .1s pulse to the motor bolt. I'm not complaining: it certainly makes things easier to make incremental bolts this way; I just don't get why it works out that way. I mean if the game refreshes every .033s, then shouldn't it refresh 2-3 times during a .1s input? I suppose in the first .03 of a second, it receives the signal to move and starts its .1s cycle, then by the time the switch is triggered, it's already missed the first third of the cycle so I guess that's why you don't get a full .1s, but it seems like it ought to give you a .066.... which I guess is what you were saying at the end of your post. One nice side effect of this is that you don't have to worry about different switch radii giving you different results: if it triggers at all, it's always gonna' give a .033 pulse. I have made piston relays that travel their entire distance (theoretically) in 0.0025s (i.e 20x faster than normally), so should be able to propogate pretty darn fast How'd you do that? Zero strength piston with a winch that's 20x the travel distance? I used something similar in the overly complicated double tap switch I built for my mech: I wanted it to register double taps no matter how quickly the player fires them off (cuz it drives me crazy when I can't work other people's 2xTaps because I didn't wait long enough between taps), but it turned out it was still limited by the game's refresh time--If my second tap came too soon, the game simply refused to output a signal from the grab switch. I wouldn't have thought that my taps were faster than 30Hz, though, so maybe there's a different limitation? I suppose it must need to stay on for .03s and then off for .03, so if I tap twice in less than .066s, it would miss the second tap--I suppose I might be firing off a couple taps faster than 15Hz. I actually got the idea of "overdriving" pistons from something I read about lcd screens a few years back. The refresh rate on lcds sucks because of the time it takes for a pixel to go from off to on (or whatever the terms they use are). The way they got around that was to change the "on" position to more than was needed, but then stop when it reached the desired position.

2010-06-04 00:45:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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That's the part that's been messing me up. I don't understand why a .1s flipper isn't giving a .1s pulse to the motor bolt. I'm not complaining: it certainly makes things easier to make incremental bolts this way; I just don't get why it works out that way. I mean if the game refreshes every .033s, then shouldn't it refresh 2-3 times during a .1s input (the first refresh is the start of the input, but it might be ignored)? I have some thoughts on that but it's highly specualtive, and I'm not even sure it makes sense. I'm happy with it not reaching 3 times, but I can't quite get why 2 doesn't work. How'd you do that? Zero strength piston with a winch that's 20x the travel distance? 2 x 100 long pistons, which overlap by 5 units (so one is 0-100, the other is 95-195. That way you get super-fast motion in both directions. TBH, I'm pretty sure grabbing is really quite slow in comparison to the 0.03333s intervals - it's closer to 0.2 - 0.3s between grabs, or something.

2010-06-04 00:53:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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2 x 100 long pistons, which overlap by 5 units (so one is 0-100, the other is 95-195. Heh. Once again, you manage to create the least complicated method possible. I used a piston and two winches, but you got it down to just two pistons. TBH, I'm pretty sure grabbing is really quite slow in comparison to the 0.03333s intervals - it's closer to 0.2 - 0.3s between grabs, or something. Yes, that would make more sense than thinking that I'm the Flash. [edit] Dunno' how I missed Comph's video earlier (think I was talking on the phone and I skimmed down to the most recent reply), but it does seem wierd that your inc-bolt was giving you 90 degree pulses, but I'm betting that it's because you're using an on/off signal rather than a one shot. It seems to me that, when using a one shot switch, the switch itself eats up one of the .033s cycles. When you just turn the emitter on and leave it on, the switch isn't using a cycle each time, so the emitted key gets to trigger the switch for the full .066s (I still don't understand why it's not a full .1s) and you get double the output on your inc-bolt. So the 0.033s thing seems pretty reliable and it seems to fit the facts, but I'm curious how that figure was reached? How was it verified that the game updates every 0.033s? The closest I'd been able to figure was somewhere in the vicinity of 0.04s (so I was off by 0.0066), but I couldn't think of a way of testing it more accurately. My test used a super emitter (the 0.0s one from the bubble vendor) with a max emitted of 100 and a clock that counted seconds (I suppose I could've rigged one that would tick twice per second) and it seemed that it took somewhere in the vicinity of 3.5-4 seconds for the emitter to run out (plus the .1s lifetime of the last emitted mag key).

2010-06-04 01:02:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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