Home    Site Stuff    Site Feedback
#1

A Rookie Spotlight?

Archive: 55 posts

Ok so, the reason for this idea is basicly, well the typical story "Alot of new creators dont get noticed or what they deserve etc..."

I mean heres the thing, a rookie joins the LBPC Forum, he makes a great level and he posts it here on LBPC, he shows potential in his work....however, his work isnt noticed because its shrouded in shadows of other great famous well known creators, so the point is, and yes because it is the truth no matter what people say.

People will always pay attention or look first at a level made by someone well known (a great Creator) and i wont mention names...No offense to anyone

So despite his (Rookies) hard work, that rookie will not get the respect etc....he derserves for his work, and yes because i know people that have been trying and somehow have no luck, despite there work being Beautiful and Artistic.


So my idea is why not a Spotlight or something exclusivly for Rookie, New Creators?

I mean idk what to call it, but you get the idea of what i mean. I mean look at it this way...

A Soccer team, was made, it has 12 superstars, and the team has been the same for like 10 years,
So, there are Rookie players who "Dream" of being in the Team, but however despite they get close or chanches they never really get in the team...

So in other words, one day a Draft is made where the Rookie are sent to another Team and from there get the Spotlight "they" deserve and from there hopefully one day, make it to the All Start Team they yearn for and have fighted for, for so long etc...


So i hope you understand what im trying to say and once again NO OFFENSE TO ANYONE, but its the truth no matter how Mean it sounds....
Creators that are well known have an easy path so why not, make that path a little easier for Rookies aswell?

Because idk if some of you noticed but...If a rookie comes up with something New, Creative and Fresh and it doesnt get noticed, some Famous Person will come over....Steal the Idea, and get all the Credit For themselves, and again, Im not saying any names...

After i close this i wanna point out one more important thing.
The reason for this is not for my own advantage, So i want to point out im not even into Competition, so dont think im doing this for my own good, because "IT IS NOT".


The real purpose is for all the newcomers, because one day there will be a new name, that everytime you see the name youll know what to expect, but right now that seems impossible, so that is the reason for this idea.		2010-05-20 23:09:00

Author:
Bloo_boy
Posts: 1019

I hear the spotlight team will try to look at all the levels in the level showcase regardless of them being "rookie" or not.2010-05-20 23:13:00

Author:
warlord_evil
Posts: 4193

But you tend to get more feedback if you are a well known creator. I agree with blooboy.2010-05-20 23:14:00

Author:
bonner123
Posts: 1487

Whoa guys seriously?

How many times are the spotlight team gonna have to repeat -

WE PLAY ALL THE LEVELS IN THE LEVEL SHOWCASE - HALF THE TIME I DON'T EVEN LOOK AT THE CREATOR NAMES!!!!

So yes, maybe they won't get as much feedback as these "famous" creators - but they all have an equal chance in the spotlighter's eyes, so your suggestion would not help unfortunately		2010-05-20 23:20:00

Author:
Coxy224
Posts: 2645

I hear the spotlight team will try to look at all the levels in the level showcase regardless of them being "rookie" or not.

Yes they do play most if not all levels if i'm notmistaking.
Besides, there's really no way to tell who's a rookie, a good rookie, or a really bad veteran.		2010-05-20 23:22:00

Author:
Silverleon
Posts: 6707

The spotlight team doesn't play most of the levels... they play them all. If you are a new creator who is showing great potential, then we do have an "Also From the Spotlight..." section. Creating another tier of spotlight for the rookies sort of undermines the whole idea of having a spotlight.

2010-05-20 23:33:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

True to what all of you have said but look, and sorry if it offends anyone, Comphermc (a great creator, one of my favorites, and one i look up 2) lets say, a random rookie or new guy join LBPC and Posts a Very good level in the Showcase...however, lets say a great creator like comphermc, makes lets say posts Cloudy with a chance of teamwork part2, and there both in the level showcase, where do you think people or anyone would look in First? and lets say Theres only one spotlight left for a level?

And of course Comphermc is a great creator with a Perfect level so he would get the spot...
Exactly my point yes, all level are played but still you notced how many great levels have just "faded away" in the level showcase thread, because yeah maybe they "look" at it and play it, but still if nobody feedback's, or posts in it, it will dissapear.

So you shouldnt come here saying, its pointless or the suggestion is Unnecesary just becausey well, your known here in LBPC, so you would have it the easy way getting feeback etc..,
But "NO" its not the same story for people that are starting from the bottom, trying to get noticed, cause alot of people already gave up on LBP and some of them are here on LBPC but again i wont mention names...


"Oh and sorry for using you as an example Comphermc, im just trying to make a point"		2010-05-20 23:53:00

Author:
Bloo_boy
Posts: 1019

Here's my take: All creators are equal...but some are more equal than others.2010-05-20 23:54:00

Author:
TheCountessZ
Posts: 537

Hey Bloo... you should take comfort in knowing that there is no set number of levels to be spotlighted. We may have only 5 levels, or as many as 30. It all depends on how many spotlight-quality levels are released over that fortnight.2010-05-20 23:56:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

But you tend to get more feedback if you are a well known creator. I agree with blooboy.
While this is generally true, it is not always the case. If you want more feedback, you don't have to be a well known creator to get it. I think a big reason newcomers don't get so much feedback is they don't properly use the F4F option. Just going out there and giving feedback on other levels is a great way to get the word out. Past that, there are always members like the spotlight crew who are willing to give their opinions as well. (*cough cough, points to signature*)

As to the spotlight for new members, many spotlights have showcased new talent. In addition, everyone is new talent at some point You all know comphy now, but you might not have known who he was before he published his Aperture Science series. Sure, I may go out and play levels from well known creators- but when the spotlight rolls around, its the new ones that I look most forward to. 		2010-05-20 23:56:00

Author:
Burnvictim42
Posts: 3322

Well, anyways i just wanted to make this noticed, because ive been noticing alot of Hypocricy around but enough of dat.

Sorry for all the trouble once again sorry if i offended anyone, but i just felt like someone atleast "someone" needed to make this point clear, all i can say is

"Look closely" cause youll be surpised to see what has been there all along and somehow your just overlooking it, or just ignoring it.

Sorry! for Comphermc again, didnt wanna make you mad or anything and sorry to everyone, so i guess this thread should be closed maybe hehe
so yeah..

haha sorry i just love that smiley
K im out, dont kil me! XD		2010-05-21 00:02:00

Author:
Bloo_boy
Posts: 1019

It has been my experience that the Spotlight team does indeed play all the showcase levels (a truely amazing feat of dedication). I first joined LBPC to get some feedback for one of my levels...not only did I get great feedback it also got selected for a spotlight. I'd hardly consider myself well-known, 500 plays is great for one of my levels.

The best thing a newcomer can do is play the other showcase levels and leave feedback, that will start getting you noticed. HTH		2010-05-21 00:35:00

Author:
fullofwin
Posts: 1214

As has been said in the various posts in this thread, the Spotlight is inherently designed to avoid bias. The Spotlight Crew plays every level in the Showcase and does not discriminate based on who created which level. The Spotlight itself has no set number of slots, so a "lesser-known" Creator will never be booted out by a more popular one. When planning how the Spotlight would be put together, we went out of our way to remove every variable except one: level quality. If your level is of quality, it will make the cut. If it is not, it won't. It's that simple, really.

Now, outside of the Spotlight, I can't speak for. Whether it be art, music, or even LittleBigPlanet level design, those who have established themselves as skilled at a particular task will garner more attention than those who have not, even if they have an equal skill level. This is not a flaw in our forum, this is a fact of life, and one that has to be dealt with in any quest in which the goal is to "beat out the next guy", so to speak. Even if Creation isn't specifically competitive, the fact that there are so many Creators competing for limited attention means that there is a layer of competition glazed over the entire affair, making things seem rather unfair for newcomers.

So, how do you break in? In all honesty: Create something that blows everyone away. Create a level that makes people remember your (user)name. It's a tall order, but you're not going to make a name for yourself by doing just as well as everyone else. You're going to have to challenge the status quo and do something completely new if you want to be remembered and recognized. As I said before, this isn't a flaw in the design of our forum, it's a fact of life itself - one you'll have to learn to deal with sooner or later if you ever hope to succeed at, well, anything.

/soapbox 		2010-05-21 01:21:00

Author:
ConfusedCartman
Posts: 3729

As has been said in the various posts in this thread, the Spotlight is inherently designed to avoid bias. The Spotlight Crew plays every level in the Showcase and does not discriminate based on who created which level. The Spotlight itself has no set number of slots, so a "lesser-known" Creator will never be booted out by a more popular one. When planning how the Spotlight would be put together, we went out of our way to remove every variable except one: level quality. If your level is of quality, it will make the cut. If it is not, it won't. It's that simple, really.

Now, outside of the Spotlight, I can't speak for. As in all things competitive in life, those who have established themselves as good at something will garner more attention than those who have not, even if they have an equal skill level. This is not a flaw in our forum, this is a fact of life, and one that has to be dealt with in any quest in which the goal is to "beat out the next guy", so to speak. Even if Creation isn't specifically competitive, the fact that there are so many Creators competing for limited attention means that there is a layer of competition glazed over the entire affair, making things seem rather unfair for newcomers.

So, how do you break in? In all honesty: Create something that blows everyone away. Create a level that makes people remember your (user)name. It's a tall order, but you're not going to make a name for yourself by doing just as well as everyone else. As I said before, this isn't a flaw in the design of our forum, it's a fact of life itself - one you'll have to learn to deal with sooner or later if you ever hope to succeed at, well, anything.

I respectfully disagree. And like I posted above, some creators are "more equal" than others when it comes to the Spotlight. Sorry if some disagree with me. However, I've heard it said that they are above reproach since they work so hard, but I and others believe there is an inherent bias present, whether intentional or not.		2010-05-21 01:31:00

Author:
TheCountessZ
Posts: 537

I respectfully disagree. And like I posted above, some creators are "more equal" than others when it comes to the Spotlight. Sorry if some disagree with me. However, I've heard it said that they are above reproach since they work so hard, but I and others believe there is an inherent bias present, whether intentional or not.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I happen to have the privilege of reading over the Spotlight Crew's deliberations when deciding who and what to include, and they go out of their way to be as fair as possible when selecting levels for each Spotlight. It's fairly difficult to translate all of those hundreds of pages in a few sentences, but suffice to say that there's no secret list of "Favorite Creators" or anything nefarious like that. They rarely unanimously agree on whether or not to include a level, and that includes established Creators.

Look: we have no motivation to give any sort of preference to some Creators over others. The Spotlight Crew volunteers their time for free - it's not like they're getting paid bonuses to include Creators that might generate more buzz. Look at it from our perspective: why wouldn't we want more new Creators in the limelight? More new, skilled Creators means more variety for our community and more fun in each Spotlight overall, so it would seem fairly backwards for us to limit the Spotlight in any way. What possible reason could there be for restricting access to the Spotlight to established Creators? I certainly don't see one.		2010-05-21 01:41:00

Author:
ConfusedCartman
Posts: 3729

I respectfully disagree. And like I posted above, some creators are "more equal" than others when it comes to the Spotlight. Sorry if some disagree with me. However, I've heard it said that they are above reproach since they work so hard, but I and others believe there is an inherent bias present, whether intentional or not.

So, what, just because they made awesome levels before, their new levels can't possibly be worthy of a spotlight?

Seriously, I just... I just... really. So what, should we give all rewards to people who didn't already get them, and not to people who make good levels all the time?

Seriously, what do you want? If you make an awesome level every time, they can't be better because we're commie? Is that it? We're commies? You're saying we should not give one of an unlimited amount of slots to people who already got one of said unlimited slots because that means that they're better?

... Seriously, just... I just... how. I'm sorry, but why should people who always make good levels not be listed as good levels just because they always make good levels?

And how would SEPERATING them into a second spotlight make any different? Come on, you can't honestly say that there are no new guys in the current spotlight... YEs, there are tons of existing people, but you don't just not nominate the best movie just because the director is known for good movies.

i'm sorry, I just... can't... understand... what the problem is... I just...		2010-05-21 01:41:00

Author:
RockSauron
Posts: 10882

Respectfully, no. I do not believe good levels are not worthy of a spotlight. I also did not suggest that bad levels should be. I simply expressed my personal views on the matter. Very odd that no one can express their views concerning the Spotlight Team if isn't full of praise for them without being jumped on. All I'm saying is that I've seen some levels make it that shouldn't and the reverse (my opinion). And...I'm fully aware that the team is human.2010-05-21 01:58:00

Author:
TheCountessZ
Posts: 537

... So what, your defense is that it's your opinion and thus it shouldn't be argued against?

It's not good enough to just say it's your opinion and give no reason as to how it holds any merit.

This isn't just to you, it's to everyone who seems to think that somehow there's some conspiracy for... what do you even think you're talking about? You say that they shouldn't consistently reward people who consistently do good while also allowing now people a chance for it, then say you didn't say that, then say that it's your opinion and that you should have the right to say it and no one should be allowed to "attack" it despite it not not being coherent?

It's not just you, it's just... How is it that the Spotlight doesn't reward newbies enough? What do you even WANT? I've never been able to have anyone give a coherent explanation for how there's some "clique" here, or whatever you're saying. I just... have this problem. I just hate it when there's an absence of logic, so excuse my fury if you would >_<		2010-05-21 02:06:00

Author:
RockSauron
Posts: 10882

I want nothing. And no need for fury, Rock. You've made my point...2010-05-21 02:10:00

Author:
TheCountessZ
Posts: 537

Respectfully, no. I do not believe good levels are not worthy of a spotlight. I also did not suggest that bad levels should be. I simply expressed my personal views on the matter. Very odd that no one can express their views concerning the Spotlight Team if isn't full of praise for them without being jumped on. All I'm saying is that I've seen some levels make it that shouldn't and the reverse (my opinion). And...I'm fully aware that the team is human.

Alright, well, in an attempt to continue this discussion without taking it to an unnecessary level, let me go through the last few Spotlights and pick out names I do not recognize off of the top of my head. Obviously, I intend absolutely no offense to these Creators - I simply want to elaborate on a point I made earlier.


Rhys125
sjepap
Malhat06
ptwob
AccumulationNone
alismuffin
Captain-Rule
SeekingTruth86
Domik12
Sickivionkey
croissantbuncake
OneEyedBanshee
DRLONG
Dorine_Marco
carlosgrss
SneakySteve1983
gocubsgo2
TOWERS_85_87
Chicoleunis
Spark151
VelcroJonze
spok22

Now, these Creators made up more than half of the total Creators featured in the past three Spotlights (the other chunk being names I recognize in some fashion), which means if we're being selective about who we allow into the Spotlight based purely on the Creator, we must be doing a poor job. Am I wrong here?		2010-05-21 02:19:00

Author:
ConfusedCartman
Posts: 3729

I don't think you really get TheCountessZ's point. I think (and sorry if I misinterpret) that she's saying she thinks levels that aren't spotlight worthy can get in, just because they are made by someone well-known and active on this site. Now, don't get me wrong, if comphermc (sorry to use you as an example again) made a blank level with some bubbles and a scoreboard, it wouldn't get in the spotlight because the spotlight team is not made up of a bunch of idiots. In fact, I believe the spotlight team is made up of smart people who work hard and I really appreciate that, but bias is a fact of life. If comphermc makes a level that's on the border of making it into the spotlight, don't you think seeing his blue name might push his level over the edge?

CC made a point about how they controlled the spotlight so the only factor was quality, but that's wrong. It would be completely controlled if levels were posted anonymously, so there was no bias. Everyone (me included) knows that that's a ridiculous idea (not to mention impossible), but that would be the only way to completely eliminate bias.		2010-05-21 02:20:00

Author:
thekevinexpress
Posts: 256

Read my quote again. I can't even question the team's opinions but my opinion is questioned. End of discussion for me.2010-05-21 02:26:00

Author:
TheCountessZ
Posts: 537

If comphermc makes a level that's on the border of making it into the spotlight, don't you think seeing his blue name might push his level over the edge?

I would certainly hope not! In fact, I half-expect my next level to not be spotlighted because it has a certain difficulty level that is outside the norm of mainstream. That's fine. I would respect that.

As you go on to say... we cannot publish levels anonymously, but the spotlight team is very thorough in their efforts to remove any connection between a level and its author. In fact, the level review process is done very formally using a table as such:

http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=17229&d=1274406935

Now, when the levels are placed into the table, an author is not shown. Rather, they are free to discuss the levels as if they were anonymous. Mini reviews are then filled into each cell. Any disagreements are then handled on a per-level basis.

There. That's how it works. That's how it will continue to work.		2010-05-21 02:36:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

I don't think you really get TheCountessZ's point. I think (and sorry if I misinterpret) that she's saying she thinks levels that aren't spotlight worthy can get in, just because they are made by someone well-known and active on this site. Now, don't get me wrong, if comphermc (sorry to use you as an example again) made a blank level with some bubbles and a scoreboard, it wouldn't get in the spotlight because the spotlight team is not made up of a bunch of idiots. In fact, I believe the spotlight team is made up of smart people who work hard and I really appreciate that, but bias is a fact of life. If comphermc makes a level that's on the border of making it into the spotlight, don't you think seeing his blue name might push his level over the edge?

CC made a point about how they controlled the spotlight so the only factor was quality, but that's wrong. It would be completely controlled if levels were posted anonymously, so there was no bias. Everyone (me included) knows that that's a ridiculous idea (not to mention impossible), but that would be the only way to completely eliminate bias.
Well, there is no way to remove bias absolutely. If you want that, you don't understand the basics of the world (namely humanity itself) and how it functions, but that's another discussion. The best we can do is work to minimize it, which we do by a) putting certain standards and rules in place and b) hand-picking each member so we have a varied and fair team to work with. I can never guarantee that there will never ever be bias - if you're looking for that, I am just going to disappoint you. However, I can guarantee you this:


If your level is good, it will make it into the Spotlight.
We have no nefarious goals. There are no "cliques" that are out to exclude you - at least not ones officially run and/or supported by LBPCentral, and definitely not in our Spotlight.
We have designed the Spotlight to be as fair as possible, and we will continue with that philosophy.

In order to make the Spotlight any more "fair", we'd have make all Creator listings anonymous to our Spotlight Crew, which is, quite frankly, a ridiculous proposition. If we did that, the next problem we'd have is that people would believe our Spotlight Crew was "cheating" by logging out or otherwise circumventing our hiding of the names. If we did it universally instead, it would completely undermine the Level Showcase. Either way, it's just an absolutely terrible idea. The setup we have now is, all things considered, the most fair option to all involved. Especially considering our Spotlight Crew operates without the Creator's username displayed for most of the deliberation process anyway (see the post above mine).		2010-05-21 02:45:00

Author:
ConfusedCartman
Posts: 3729

hmm... i can see where countess is coming from... sometimes i feel like i'm being jumped on because i am questioning someone important or with alot of power on a subject... like when i was talking in that lbp2 thread, and comph (in my head) kinda put the "Spotlight on me" and not others who were doing much worse than me... i questioned it and everyone got really mad.... so... i can see where she is coming from2010-05-21 02:47:00

Author:
Joshofsouls
Posts: 1569

...I and others believe there is an inherent bias present, whether intentional or not.

Absolutely. I think there's going to be a certain amount of bias in anyone's opinion of anything, but from what I've seen, the spotlight team try their hardest to minimize any such bias.

However, regardless of who's right or wrong, it doesn't really make much sense to have a separate "Rookie Spotlight", as the original rationale was based on a faulty premise, i.e. that there are a finite number of 'slots' for spotlighted levels.

The issue of bias is a completely separate issue, so before making a mountain out of a molehill, are we just arguing that people are naturally biased (which would seem to be pretty much true by definition), or are we arguing that such bias is having a significant impact on the choice of levels which make the spotlight, since if it's the not the latter, then there doesn't seem to be much point in arguing. 		2010-05-21 02:58:00

Author:
Aya042
Posts: 2870

Hey, I believe that the spotlight crew is selecting the levels as fair as possible. As time passes by, we see more and more quality levels coming out and I think that The Crew has done a great job of keeping the bar up. When I first joined LBPC, I was very VERY unknown (I still don't consider myself "famous" btw) and I only had one level. Guess what, it got spotlighted! Obviously I don't get the same amount of replies on my thread as Comphy, but my level was still recognized. I would definitely take advantage of the F4F feature. I used to sit and play LBP with my laptop open, going thru all the F4F levels. I say look at the bright side of things, take it in as competition, make yourself famous! Every time you create a level, you should aim to top off someone like Comphy (which is not hard to do jk) and have patience! Rome wasn't built in one day.

Those are my thoughts! Keep it up Spotlight Crew, I'm out!		2010-05-21 03:18:00

Author:
javi haguse
Posts: 744

While I do see Countess's point, I must say that I believe that the Spotlight Crew is doing the best they possibly can to rid of the bias when choosing levels for the Spotlight. While, as stated before, you simply cannot rid of it all, I believe that they rid of all they can. I suggest that rather than ranting on about the what you see as 'flaws' in the Spotlight, why not create something truly Spotlight worthy? I bet you that, if it is good enough, it will get into the Spotlight! 2010-05-21 03:36:00

Author:
RJA00000
Posts: 387

This is a tricky issue.. I can really see all the perspectives here and there's no easy answer. But I'll have my say nonetheless...

From Bloo-boy's initial post I get the impression that what he really wants is some form of recognition - and that's a completely understandable and, unfortunately, a seemingly inherent human desire. LBPC is an awesome community to belong to, but it can be a tough gig to crack (if you get what I mean). As CC pointed out, there's an inherent glaze of competitiveness due to the limits on our time and attention, and the competition here is pretty tough. We have some outstanding creators in our midst and so the bar is pretty darn high. I do believe that LBPC as a whole is a community that values skill and excellence, but also encourages and fosters upcoming talent as well. But I also know there are many lesser known people here who feel a bit overlooked. Sadly, I don't think there's anything that can be done to eradicate that as it's a just an unfortunate byproduct of many people sharing the same space (cyber, in this case) - and our community is growing rapidly, meaning more and more people looking for recognition. I do have a suggestion for that - which I'll get to in a moment...

As far as the Community Spotlights go, I think the team do a great job. The workload is huge - I know people who've had to drop it - and that load would of course vary from fortnight to fortnight based on the number of levels published. Do I believe what is chosen is done without bias? Basically - yes. That's not to say that bias doesn't exist because, as Aya said, it must. We're human beings. However, if there is bias I honestly don't believe it's ever intentional or malicious. That doesn't necessarily diminish the fact it can be hurtful to those that feel overlooked, obviously.

While there are criteria for quality, etc that levels need to meet, each level that's played is being considered subjectively, really, and that is the right of that person playing it. And that's how it needs to be - this isn't 'best practices' we're evaluating here, it's entertainment. It's games being judged, basically, on how much enjoyment they gave the person playing it, so it has to be a subjective assessment. What one person will love, another won't - which is why the team dynamic exists (apart from the need to share the workload). There have been levels I've played that I thought would've surely been Spotlighted, but they weren't (not referring to mine here, either. I haven't published a level since joining LBPC :blush , however my tastes may not be theirs and to be frank, I haven't put my hand up for the Spotlight Team so I really don't get a say in that context - nor should I. [Putting in an edit here - I will also say I haven't ever played a Spotlight level I thought was undeserving]. Plus, who knows? Maybe team members have had a really tough week and only got to play through the levels a minimum number of times and so nuances were missed? But we've got people choosing the spotlights, not automatons. People have work, school, family, etc to deal with - much as I'm sure many people would love to do LBP full time If people feel that their choices are constantly at odds with the Team's choices, then why not consider joining the team and sharing your point of view?

But back to my suggestion for Bloo_boy. As others have stated (and my 4 decades of living has proven to be true), life isn't fair. There are singers in the world every bit as good if not better than someone like Beyonce, for example, who will never be known. The trick to enjoying your LBPC experience has been, for me, forgetting the issue of recognition and thousands of plays = I am worthwhile as a creator. If you've made a level and you love it, that in itself should be enough. Our society is far too obsessed with fame and the opinions of others being what determines our value. If you're after accolades and fame in the LBP community, you may be in for a lot of disappointment. You might not, of course, but you might. I've found a great deal of satisfaction in the one or two really kind comments I've had about my levels, and that's made all my effort worthwhile - that and the awesome friends I've made here at LBPC, not by being a creator, but by being involved. And that experience is open to anybody.

I wish you all good luck 		2010-05-21 04:55:00

Author:
BabyDoll1970
Posts: 1567

As far as the spotlight goes, I don't think anyone can complain that their level didn't get in because it went unnoticed... I remember when I first got a level in the community spotlight, I may have been a member for a couple of weeks, and might have had 30 posts. There's plenty of spotlighted levels that come from complete unknows, and while it's true that famous creators / community members tend to get more feedback, I think the selection process for the community spotlight is very fair!2010-05-21 08:04:00

Author:
Duffluc
Posts: 402

From what ive read in this thread (Rhymes!) i can see there are a lot of different opinions thrown here n there.
I do thik the spotlight crew are doing a great job! And i do agree that some people seem higher then others on this site which will make other/new people feel out of place.
But i guess thats how life goes, if you want to become someone you have to put the effort in to get there. Everyone is treated equally most of the time but there will be occasions where the term "biased". I made a thread about disrespect and someone mention people "brown nosing". There's a lot of this around different forums as thats the way it goes. I dont like certain situations myself but i tend to keep it to myself as i hate banter!

Also i have seem some levels which have not been spotlighted when they are better then one of the ones which have been spotlighted but its down to the spotlighers decisions anyway.

I thought my level Ja-Ja Lane would get spotlighted as everyone said it was so good etc but i didnt get my hopes up as i knew they may well be better levels out there...

Oh and whats the maxium number of PS3 levels to be spotlighted a time??


Anyway we all know the term "everyone has their own opinion" so thats life folks! lol

P.s i am not taking sides, this is my opinion 		2010-05-21 10:05:00

Author:
Fenderjt
Posts: 1969

Regarding the initial topic of conversation:

Bloo, I can understand where you are coming from. Even within the spotlight team, we are very keen to try and promote the upcoming creators, and the niche levels, because we do play everything in the showcase and we do see the very promising levels by people who aren't getting much attention. This is one of the many reasons we introduced the "also in the spotlight" (or "nods" as we refer to them behind closed doors). The problem we faced with that, however, is that giving a nod for a new creator has to have some definition of what qualifies as "new". We actually ended up with the conclusion that it needs to be a first level to qualify in that case. Is that fair? IDK, but it seemed the only sensible solution, but again this would have to be a consideration for what counts as "rookie"

But, when we consider that new creators are being ignored, just think about when you go to the cinema. Do you make the gamble of going and seeing the film you know nothing about, by a new director and unheard of actors, or do you go see the film that you expect in advance to be of quality, because you know who made it? You go to see the one you know is gonna be good. And in honesty, the fact that new creators struggle to get noticed has nothing to do with the nature of the spotlight, but to do with the nature of everyone who looks in the showcase for levels to play. I'm willing to bet that you'd play a level by your favourite creator before you play a level by someone you've never heard of, right?

Now bearing that in mind, what exactly would happen if we did have a rookie spotlight? Well, any rookie that produced a level good enough for the main spotlight, would go in the main spotlight, as they do now. By implication then, everything in the rookie spotlight would be of a "lesser" quality than the main spotlight. So, which do you think people will pay attention to first?

Further more, have a two-tiered system means that not getting into either tier is even more demoralising and in some cases will have the complete opposite effect than is intended, as it will actually push those levels that really need the feedback further out of view.

I'm not saying that the rookie spotlight is a bad idea, but it does come with some issues and I honestly don't think it will help that much with new creators getting feedback. If you look at some of the levels we've spotlighted in the past that only have a few comments before we spotlight them, they don't suddenly get loads of feedback afterwards either, they get a couple more comments and that's about it.

The F4F system, and getting generous members like burnvictim to give you feedback / do playtesting is the best way to get yourself noticed and to improve. And posting in the help forums. Seriously, I managed to get loads of interest in my first level simply by being helpful around the forums. Essentially, being proactive about promotion and interacting with other creators. In addition, one thing that will raise people's awareness of you, or at least as far as I have seen, is how well you incorporate feedback. If people see you taking their feedback, and other people's feedback on board, by updating your level, they are more likely to want to feed back to you in future.

Of course, it's still a struggle, but remember most of the famous people started out the same way, they didn't just publish a level and become overnight celebreties (ok, maybe some of the stupidly talented ones did, but most didn't). You will have to work to carve out a name for yourself, as is the case throughout life.

----------------------------------------------
On to the spotlight in general. You'll be pleased to note I haven't adopted my usual agressive stance this time around, and instead will try to be a little more balanced.



lets say Theres only one spotlight left for a level?

Oh and whats the maxium number of PS3 levels to be spotlighted a time??
I just want to reiterate the point made by others that there is no set limit on the number of spotlight places available. If 100 levels were published of suitable quality in a fortnight, then 100 levels would get into the spotlight, simple as.


I respectfully disagree. And like I posted above, some creators are "more equal" than others when it comes to the Spotlight.... Very odd that no one can express their views concerning the Spotlight Team if isn't full of praise for them without being jumped on. OK, this is why you get slapped down by people when you criticise the spotlight. It's not because you have an opinion that rocks the boat, or goes against the grain. If you have something tangible that you want to pull me up on, then I'll be happy to listen and be reasonable about it. But people always seem to make these wild accusations, without any real basis. The problem here is that it comes down to opinion, yet people make it into fact and then wrap that fact up in snide remarks - I'm sure you understand the Animal Farm reference and the reasons why someone might take offense to being compared to that, yes?

And this is especially true when it is based upon no real evidence. In fact, as CC has demonstrated above, and I will continue to demonstrate below, there are plenty of examples that show that this is not the case, yet everyone chooses to ignore them because it doesn't fit their agenda. Now, obviously you are entitled to your opinions, but when these are completely subjective matters (level "quality") and your opinion is essentially packaged as an attack on others, with no real substance to back them up beyond your assertion that you believe it to be true, despite the evidence to the contrary... expect others to disagree with them. Other people are entitled to their opinions as much as you are.

Now this isn't an attack on you, I'm just pointing out why people get jumped on when they say things like this. It's the manner in which they say them. Now yours isn't so bad, but often people are just downright rude about the whole thing. The recent example of Mistervista posting that it was unfair that no spotlight members played his level is a good case of this. He knew **** well that his level had been played by us, yet he deliberately lied to try and promote bad feeling towards the team. Of course when people brazenly lie in an attemtpt to push bad feelings against other forum members, they will get a smacking.

Of course, it doesn't help in many cases that the people who are so annoyed about the spotlight are people who have recently missed out on a spot, often by a small margin. I'm not saying that makes your opinion any less valid, but the perception is always going to be that you are kicking off because you feel hard done by, so some people will take you less seriously because of the unfortunate timing, even if that has no real bearing on the point you are trying to make.


All I'm saying is that I've seen some levels make it that shouldn't and the reverse (my opinion).

Of course, and this is the issue with the spotlight and always will be. It also highlights another reason why dissenters get jumped upon. The typical argument goes along the lines of


I saw levels that I think should / shouldn't have made the spotlight.... <big gap in logic> ... therefore the spotlight team are doing a bad job / are biassed / are picking on me.

Can you not see how unbelievably arrogant that point of view is, when you break it down? It's beasically saying that anyone who doesn't agree with your viewpoint on a highly subjective topic is wrong, and then there is an undertone that in some way, we are maliciously so (you have extropolated a difference of opinion into evidence of bias). Simply because you have differing tastes is not indication that we favour certain creators over others, when considering the spotlight, it just means that your have a different opinion.

The other side to that, which makes it all the more arrogant is the fact that there are 6 of us debating the levels that go in. We come from a very wide demographic, and very much don't think the same way. This is one of the many ways that we attempt to avoid bias. Of course it's not perfect and it certainly doesn't make the resultant answer "correct" but it's actually a pretty decent method. And again, I want to re-emphasise that this is not an attack on you. I can see where you are coming from, you have your own basis for evaluation, same as everyone else, but try to see why the way you present your opinion is not appreciated by some.

Even if we take out the issue of who created it (which honestly, I think the spotlight team does, I certainly do), we all like different things. If it were just me picking the spotlight, then you wouldn't see the same list as is presented each fortnight. Does that prove that the other spotlighters are wrong, or more biassed than me? Of course not, they are just different. That's why there are 5 other people working on it, because I only represent one viewpoint and my opinion alone is not enough. It doesn't make it more "right", but it evens out individual preferences and I don't think any one person can honestly say that their opinion is more valid than a team of 6 who are doing their very best to combine all their differing opinions to find only the top quality levels.

In addiiton, just think about it... What benefit is there to us to actually push individuals? What do I gain, personally, by promoting someone famous and pushing down someone who is unknown, but has a level that I believe to be just as good? Because that is the assumption everyone is making and it's absolute nonsense. The spotlight gives me a chance to share with everyone else, the levels that I believe stand out. I'll even go as far as spotlighting and writing comments about levels by creators who I think, on a personal level, are horrible people, but I know the level is good and I know people will enjoy playing it. I don't see how I could be any less biassed towards creators than I currently am.


I can't even question the team's opinions but my opinion is questioned.
Of course you can question our opinions, you can question the levels that get chosen. Fender's post above is fine to me, she can disagree with our opinions all she wants, but she isn't making any kind of accusation, or wrapping it up in a snide manner. You can question the teams opinions, just don't make an accusation against others that essentially hinges on your opinion being more "right" than someone else's. Or, if you are going to do that, expect people to disagree with you and take offence unless you can actually back yourself up in some way.


If comphermc makes a level that's on the border of making it into the spotlight, don't you think seeing his blue name might push his level over the edge?
No. Again, this is also another fine example of where the arguments used to put down the spotlight team are insubstantial and, in this case, circular. That statement above (and I'm sorry kevin, not picking on you, it's come up a few times now) starts with the assumption that the spotlight team are biassed, then invents a hypothetical situation which is evaluated based upon that assumption, leading to the implied result that the assumption is true. Can you see why people don't take "evidence" like that seriously? It's complete nonsense!


Let me give you two genuine examples of levels that were "on the border". Jump_button's 8-bit shoot'em up and the countessZ' Patricks Tale. Jump_button, we all know, he's fantastically famous, has a great back catalogue of material, recruited by MM for the GotY and some mentions in the sackies. The countessZ: a pretty nice lass from round the forums. Which one did we favour in this case...? Neither. Both levels got played and came up as borderline. In this scenario, we generally end up having discussions about them, comparing notes etc. In the end, in both cases, no one on the team felt strongly enough to actually push it through to a full spotlight, despite both levels being good. Further example, Luos Desroc's Ankor sack didn't make a spotlight, despite everything else he's ever done making it in, because we genuinely didn't feel that, as a whole, the level was upto the spotlight.

Generally, levels on the borderline don't make it through, doesn't matter who the creators are and actually, this is normally quite a hard decision, because these "borderline" levels are actually very good, they just aren't quite there. It's easy when you can play a level and say "yes" or "no", but the maybes are the really tricky ones


The main points here are that no-one gets an automatic spotlight, no one gets bonus points because the spotlight team get all starry-eyed when we see their name. We aren't 5 year old kiddies who get starstruck by fame in the community. There is no bias based upon who the creator is, and I'm yet to see anything that actually resembles evidence that there is. It's pure speculation and there is plenty of evidence against. There are levels made by the famous creators that didn't make it in. Over 50% of what does get into the spotlight is by relative unknowns. Obviously, most of the levels by famous creators do get in. There is a reason why they are famous - it's because they consistantly produce quality products. However, when we feel that they haven't quite delivered, then they don't get the spotlight, same as everyone else.


Any bias that exists in the spotlight is purely based upon stylistic preference and that is an individual choice that varies a fair amount amongst team members. And in all honesty, I'm not even sure if something like that can even be considered bias in the first place.


And now I've wasted my entire lunch hour 		2010-05-21 13:36:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

WOW rtm now thats what i call a response! lol

Nice to see you took the time to write all that

Hopefully it will cover most of the issue.		2010-05-21 13:44:00

Author:
Fenderjt
Posts: 1969

[longest post ever]

*hears a voice in the background saying, "Get back to work, Rich. Those bugs aren't gonna write themselves."*

Now if only I could heed my own advice.

Today's Sesame Street was brought to you by the letter 'P' and the number '45'. 		2010-05-21 14:17:00

Author:
Aya042
Posts: 2870

And now I've wasted my entire lunch hour

hahahaha this is the best bit of the post by far


I wasted mine reading it ffs		2010-05-21 14:32:00

Author:
jackofcourse
Posts: 1494

OK so, i just wanna say "alot" of people are misunderstanding what my idea was, all i asked for is some sort of Mini Spotlight exclusivly for "New Creators" I refered to them as rookie so you have the idea that overall i mean "New People" cause true what Silverleon said theres really no such thing as a rookie or whatever, very true, but yeah you understand what i mean, I made a perfectly good example of my idea,


When i talked about the 2 Soccer teams so if you havent read it, go read so you understand a bit more and no, im sorry but this isnt for my own good, and im sorry Babydoll would think that .


BUt just pointing, i just came up with this cause its what i feel its right and true its not a flaw in LBPC and neither is it in the Spotlight, please not i never said that, my this topic is apart from all that, so im not coming here rubbing in everyones face "Your Hypocrites" no sorry if your offended im not doing that sorry, the only intention was a feature exclusivly for new creators.

I respect all of your opinions etc but no matter how many times you say it, or deny it, Or write it between these things---> " "
there is Hypocricy, no matter how hard it sounds, if i was in charge of a forum? and someone came giving me this idea,
It would really make sense, and i would look into it to see what could be done, but if not possible then i respect any actions, and i apologize to anyone including Confused Cartman and again Comphermc.

But i just really wanted to make this point very clear.

And again ill say it, i just make stuff because i love to, im not into competition or anything in some sort and i wouldnt even accept a spotlight or some crown, because i know theres more people out there who really deserve it more, so that said, im sorry if you think this is for my own good.		2010-05-21 14:42:00

Author:
Bloo_boy
Posts: 1019

Sorry, I don't have anything to contribute to the thread.

But can I just ask Bloo, why do you keep putting random words in "Speech Marks" ?

Ok, while I'm here, I'll just say, if there's infinite possible spaces, what's the problem?

*I know, that contradicts the first line of this post.		2010-05-21 16:15:00

Author:
Doopz
Posts: 5592

But can I just ask Bloo, why do you keep putting random words in "Speech Marks" ? [/size]
I assume it's for emphasis, because, you know...it's the internet. xD
Plus "alot" is not one word.



I just want to reiterate the point made by others that there is no set limit on the number of spotlight places available. If 100 levels were published of suitable quality in a fortnight, then 100 levels would get into the spotlight, simple as.
Out of interest, where does that "suitable quality" line sit in the sand?

And what happens with levels have have been updated? (as gameplay/visuals may have been drastically improved after comments, perhaps pushing it over the line/fence)

Branching from TheCountessZ's comments, (my opinions now) I do feel there may be some bias (again most likely unintentional) with the in-crowd on the forums, and I do tire of the in-jokes and all that. And if your not 100% praise it might damage the in-crowd's opinions of you. I now censor my opinions in most posts and sugar-coat feedback (personally I think bad/critical comments about my levels/work are more worthwhile than praise, as that helps you improve).

Like in life, it's not what you know, but who you know. I play video games to escape that bs.

Again, it may not be true, but it's how it feels sometimes.



While we're on the subject of spotlights, I also feel there is more focus on visuals than gameplay in the majority of spotlighted levels. Anyone else agree or am I alone in this?		2010-05-21 16:24:00

Author:
midnight_heist
Posts: 2513

"LOL" idk doopz im just weird XD

But yeah i agree a little with Midnight Heist about what he said but, what im trying to make out here is idk some way for new creators to have more respect and maybe a light (Spotlight) of there own, im not trying to **** of anyone, so please dont kill me 		2010-05-21 16:29:00

Author:
Bloo_boy
Posts: 1019

"LOL" idk doopz im just weird XD

But yeah i agree a little with Midnight Heist about what he said but, what im trying to make out here is idk some way for new creators to have more respect and maybe a light (Spotlight) of there own, im not trying to **** of anyone, so please dont kill me

lol Bloo stop apologising, no ones going to attack you. Its good that you expressed your feelings so you can get feedback on your thoughts. No one will hate you because of it so dont worry 		2010-05-21 16:35:00

Author:
Fenderjt
Posts: 1969

We need someone with magical locking powers by the name of Comphermc or Mrsupercomputer to stop this fight IMMEDIATELY.
No hints.		2010-05-21 16:41:00

Author:
Gavin
Posts: 338

We need someone with magical locking powers by the name of Comphermc or Mrsupercomputer to stop this fight IMMEDIATELY.
No hints.
Not sure if you are being ironic or not, if you are, kudos.
If not, locking this thread would only raise futher questions about the very topic in question.		2010-05-21 16:54:00

Author:
midnight_heist
Posts: 2513

OK so, i just wanna say "alot" of people are misunderstanding what my idea was, all i asked for is some sort of Mini Spotlight exclusivly for "New Creators"

I think we got that, and if you check the beginning of my post I was referring directly to that concept. What has happened here is that we've had a big detour into offtopicland, so a lot of the responses here have nothing to do with the original suggestion, so you certainly don't have to apologise for that


there is Hypocricy, no matter how hard it sounds
I'm sorry, what exactly is this hypocrisy that you are talking about? I'm not even sure you are using the right word here because I'm a little confused by what exactly you mean and how it fits with what else you have said.




Out of interest, where does that "suitable quality" line sit in the sand? Around 7.43 on awesometer of course

Nah, it's a tricky one, obviously if there was some objective measure it would be easy. It's essentially the levels that we think distinctly stand out. Many levels clearly, when you play them have "wow" factor, many are clearly not special enough for a spotlight. Then you have this hazy gray area in the middle, which is highly subjective and arguably where all the contention comes from. In these cases it becomes a matter of debate, which is where I think the spotlight team benefits from being a team rather than an individual. Typically, if no-one feels strongly about the level, it does not get moved from "maybe" to "yes", as it is considered that if no one of us was wanting to champion it, then it's not quite there.




And what happens with levels have have been updated? (as gameplay/visuals may have been drastically improved after comments, perhaps pushing it over the line/fence)

Depends, we would have to catch the updates. Considering the sheer volume of levels, it's not possible to replay the entire set on friday to re-evaluate our position, so obviously sometimes these can get lost. That said, if we are aware that major changes have been made then we would try to replay as that is fair. At least 2 levels in the last couple of months did get re-evaluated and pushed to a yes, on the basis of improvements to key areas.



While we're on the subject of spotlights, I also feel there is more focus on visuals than gameplay in the majority of spotlighted levels. Anyone else agree or am I alone in this?

Most of the spotlighted levels have both. There have been plenty recently that have gone through on gameplay alone (puzzle rooms, inner circle, anything by CCBH, etc.). I'd argue that you do have to have a baseline of clean, pleasant visuals, even if they aren't fancy, whereas a level that is purely visual, with zero gameplay is acceptable (I'd rather zero gameplay than bad gameplay!)		2010-05-21 16:57:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

We need someone with magical locking powers by the name of Comphermc or Mrsupercomputer to stop this fight IMMEDIATELY.
No hints.

1. There's no reason for this thread to be locked, people are still posting here, and there's no rule breaking going on here.

2. What about ConfusedCartman and Aya042? Oh and me, because I am Jesus and can therefore lock the whole internet if I feel like it. 		2010-05-21 17:49:00

Author:
Doopz
Posts: 5592

I am very happy where this conversation lead, because now I know lots more of the spotlight, now I kinda know how I could get in! MWaahahahahahha! I'm not very good on visuals IMO (Hmm... an empty spot in the level, let's put in Gecko armor plating and sticker it black!) but always try to make my levels very varying gameplay-wise and have some interesting ideas in it.

Also, Sometimes some of the spotlight crew play the level, but not post feedback on the thread? Even a little "Nice job" or "Try focusing on the visuals more" from a person like Morgana25 would probably help the creator model their next level better... I've had this happen on one of mine and I was kinda scared... Did he think my level wasn't worthy of feedback? Anywayyy... That's what you said, they play every level and that's very hard work on it's own too so, I guess it's kind of asking for too much but I know some people might be depressed.		2010-05-21 19:26:00

Author:
Arradi
Posts: 183

Well, I KNOW the spotlight is biased because my Dream Catcher level didn't make it!!!


Just kidding - I don't even know how/when the spotlight starts or works. (I don't even know how certain threads get "star" ratings).

Anyway, I will say, that having recently joined the site - the spotlights seemed to be mostly people who had been here a while. I haven't searched the spotlights too much, but most of the threads popping up seem to be peple that are well know here.

So I certainly can see the OP's assumption that there might be some biased involved.

Of course, by nature, the spotlight will consist of members who have amazing designs/levels - hence, they are well known - it becomes the chicken and the egg.

I don't think the spotlight should be expanded for "Rookies" or any other fields - when you give a trophy to everyone, it loses its' value.

If the spotlight team got monetary kickbacks for picking certain people, then I could understand people being up in arms - but since they don't. . . it's their team, they do the hard work of playing all the levels (wow! - didn't know they did that) - they've earned the right to make the final decision.

That's my 2 cents anyway.		2010-05-21 20:21:00

Author:
CYMBOL
Posts: 1230

I personally don't think there is any bias. Sure, some well known creators get spotlights more frequently- but then again, they are well known for a reason - for producing great quality levels. As for spotlighting, well, I got my first proper level spotlighted on here, and I can assure you that I knew absolutly no-one here back then. And I know this has been mentioned, but there are no certain amount of levels that get spotlighted. Whatever is good, goes. Anyway, the spotlighters are doing this for free are they not? They are generous enough to provide a service like this, so I don't think complaining about it is particulaly helpful, or grateful.

Is that right?		2010-05-21 20:28:00

Author:
standby250
Posts: 1113

Yeah i really think this Thread should be closed atleast everything is clear now, at first i just came here because i felt something was wrong you know? but thanks to all the answers especially rtm's ones then maybe alot of people will do good to read all these posts and somehow understanding more stuff as i did know, so im glad everything turned out right, it was just that my concern.


Apart fom everything, i just have one more question before all this is locked etc, im kinda confused about one certain thing ok so,
in the very long post from rtm in page 2 i think, rtm gave an example of 3 great creators and levels, but idk if i misunderstood but, Comphermc (sorry again for using the name) said theres no limit to the Spotlights, so why did rtm refered to as some borderline thing? i think i read something saying
"there levels didnt make it to the spotlight,but why if they were good? and the list for spotlights is infinite?

So that question asked i think after this this thread should be closed however, idk maybe you guys could give a little more "love" to other level that were good even if they werent in the spotlight or idk thats up to you guys, im not judging LBPC in any way, but if you look into that idea, stuff around can maybe be more friendly based etc... or something, cause most likely soon someone else might come here "again" asking the same question etc i did with this thread you know?

But yeah thats all i have to say 		2010-05-21 20:58:00

Author:
Bloo_boy
Posts: 1019

Anyway, the spotlighters are doing this for free are they not? They are generous enough to provide a service like this, so I don't think complaining about it is particulaly helpful, or grateful.

Is that right?

To some extent. I mean, if people have something they can suggest that could be used, then by all means bring it up for consideration. If there is something that can improve the spotlight then by all means people should share their ideas. The OP is an example of that, I personally don't agree with the solution he's proposing, but it stems from trying to be helpful


in the very long post from rtm in page 2 i think, rtm gave an example of 3 great creators and levels, but idk if i misunderstood but, Comphermc (sorry again for using the name) said theres no limit to the Spotlights, so why did rtm refered to as some borderline thing? i think i read something saying
"there levels didnt make it to the spotlight,but why if they were good? and the list for spotlights is infinite? OK, there is no limit on the spotlight, but each level needs to of a high enough standard to get into the spotlight, in the collective eyes of the team. The borderline levels are levels that are either all round good but nothing really stands out about them, or they might be something that is very good in places but quite bad in others, or they might be great levels that are pretty buggy, a level with excellent gameplay but really horrible visuals.... Things like that (I don't want to go into specifics about individual levels though). Levels that aren't a clear "yes" or "no". These are the levels that are hardest to decide upon and generally get the most discussion / debate. Does that make sense?		2010-05-21 21:19:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Well i cant deside if i agree or vise versa but let my tell you this, I'm a rookie myself and i havent been that sucessful in the creating buisness but since i joined LBPC ive been noticed a tiny bit more every time i post a level in the level showcase and also most creators do better than others like poms for example, he made it with his firat level Hells Angles and that was when LBP was sort-of new so just look at him now hes a living popularity chart and ive ben trying my hardest to be like him but like always puts me together with noobs -_- so bloo i agree with you.2010-05-21 21:26:00

Author:
Unknown User



What do we do now?		2010-05-21 21:26:00

Author:
standby250
Posts: 1113

I dont know.............lol...........2010-05-21 21:45:00

Author:
Unknown User

Gosh, not reading the whole thread.. but what's stopping those of you who want a newbie spotlight, from starting one up yourselves?

I never showcase my levels, so I'm possibly not in any position to comment, but does it really matter anyway? I can't see the spotlights making that much of an impact on plays or anything, if you make a decent level you'll become popular anyway. 		2010-05-21 22:34:00

Author:
Kiminski
Posts: 545

Slightly Random, Off-Topic Observation: I don't think the thanks button is a good thing to have in a debate. There are clearly two types of posts that are constantly getting thanked: praise towards the spotlight team, and almost any post that disagrees with TheCountessZ or bloo_boy. Now, the CountessZ left, seemingly because of massive disagreement and failure of debaters to understand her posts, and bloo_boy wants the thread locked.2010-05-22 00:04:00

Author:
Incinerator22
Posts: 3251

Sure, if the OP wants it locked, then it shall be done.

Locked.		2010-05-22 00:54:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338


LBPCentral Archive Statistics
Posts: 1077139    Threads: 69970    Members: 9661    Archive-Date: 2019-01-19

Datenschutz
Aus dem Archiv wurden alle persönlichen Daten wie Name, Anschrift, Email etc. - aber auch sämtliche Inhalte wie z.B. persönliche Nachrichten - entfernt.
Die Nutzung dieser Webseite erfolgt ohne Speicherung personenbezogener Daten. Es werden keinerlei Cookies, Logs, 3rd-Party-Plugins etc. verwendet.