LittleBigPlanet 2 - 3 - Vita - Karting #1
2 create modes: easy and advanced
Archive: 54 posts
| I really think that MM should enable two interfaces for the pop it. One for beginners and one for advanced creators. I come up with this, because wandering through forums and blogs, I read a lot of post from people that found LBP creation quite hard, and are worried that the amount of things available in LBP2 will only make things worse. On PSblog, for example, an uncle said that his nephews would create much better stuff with an easier interface, like ModNationRacers. A lot of good things can be done even with basic pre set tools (even a wooble bolt that turns 90? only), since some stuff can become very annoying, and without any logic. Two interfaces wouldn't hurt any old expert creator, but would push more people into the creation spree. Just a little idea. | 2010-05-18 11:01:00 Author: OmegaSlayer  Posts: 5112 |
| It's true too many option can be off putting so maybe a normal (smaller) poppit and an advanced (full) could be given in the menu. Alot of software is like this anyway where you're given the basic toolbar and you add what you want at a later time. Good sugestion. | 2010-05-18 11:15:00 Author: Mkwone  Posts: 104 |
| Huh never thought of that. A lot of my friends hate the game because it's too hard to create with. Although that might just be because they're idiots. (: | 2010-05-18 12:35:00 Author: Coreyeatpie Posts: 40 |
| It wouldn?t make a difference, there aren?t any advance tools or anything is there. The complexity is created, like through mechanisms and logic ect. That?s why a lot of people get frustrated when creating, because they are being too ambitious and cant make what they imagined. The beauty of LittleBigPlant is that they didn?t give us the finished product, but the raw materials to create almost anything? if you have the ability. That?s why its hard to create, because you truly do have to create? build from scratch. That is why I believe this game has done so well and is still growing, there are always new innovations around the corner. If they made the game simpler to use, eg Forget logic, just use this in game tool to make the door open when your near it. Then that would probably open the creating side of the game to more people, but would only restrict the people that are able to do amazing things with the game, and there are many out there. So I think that the games not to advanced at all, just the community has pushed it that way. | 2010-05-18 13:12:00 Author: oLMCo  Posts: 96 |
| You cut out people that has difficulties in the learning curve as well as hindering the creativity of lots of children. As I said, placing a wobble bolt can cause headaches, and not everyone that wants to create is willing to visit a site like this "just" to create. In my opinion your position kills the fun of people who has less abilities. In your opinion a guy that is born a bit retarded, has not the right to have fun creating and obtaining a playable result | 2010-05-18 16:53:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112 |
| I really think that MM should enable two interfaces for the pop it. One for beginners and one for advanced creators. I come up with this, because wandering through forums and blogs, I read a lot of post from people that found LBP creation quite hard, and are worried that the amount of things available in LBP2 will only make things worse. On PSblog, for example, an uncle said that his nephews would create much better stuff with an easier interface, like ModNationRacers. A lot of good things can be done even with basic pre set tools (even a wooble bolt that turns 90? only), since some stuff can become very annoying, and without any logic. Two interfaces wouldn't hurt any old expert creator, but would push more people into the creation spree. Just a little idea. Agreed. Since I'm so new to all this logic stuff, more complex creations kind of scare me. I just put my level on hold because I can't figure out how to make a contraption I built work in LBP like it does on paper. I'm 16, and I've never heard of an AND, OR, XOR, NOR, etc. gate in my life. Lol, oh well. I just gotta put in more research time into how more complex logic works. | 2010-05-18 17:08:00 Author: Mastadom Posts: 195 |
| A simplified interface could be good. But I'd say they hate LBP because making something "good" takes time, and cannot be done in 30 mins, unlike in MNR, having the Auto Populate. I know this is considered anti-n00bism, but maybe it's good theres a small step to get over in creating fluff 'n' stuff. | 2010-05-18 19:34:00 Author: Unknown User  |
| Yeah, but just now with LBP1 there's a large rock, not a step, LBP2 with a great amount o stu could really well be a too much higher cliff to climb for n00bs. In my opinion, the most people can capture the essence of the game, the more awesome creations we will be able to play. Sincerely I would really like to be able to play levels done from kids, since their genuinity and freshness could be unreachable by an adult. Being a child doesn't mean having lame ideas or concept, their fantasy is much more vivid than ours. | 2010-05-18 19:51:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112 |
| Sincerely I would really like to be able to play levels done from kids, since their genuinity and freshness could be unreachable by an adult. Being a child doesn't mean having lame ideas or concept, their fantasy is much more vivid than ours. Yes, although, Media molecule is a good example of a "kids" level. They seem to have been able to hack into the complex mind of a 5 year old. I still dont know how they do it 8( | 2010-05-18 21:37:00 Author: grayspence  Posts: 1990 |
| You cut out people that has difficulties in the learning curve as well as hindering the creativity of lots of children. As I said, placing a wobble bolt can cause headaches, and not everyone that wants to create is willing to visit a site like this "just" to create. In my opinion your position kills the fun of people who has less abilities. In your opinion a guy that is born a bit retarded, has not the right to have fun creating and obtaining a playable result Maybe I'm a jerk, but I'm a fan of anything that will help reduce the clutter of crud H4H rocket-cheetah-jetpack-skateboard-ramp levels. Kids these days (oh God did I just say that?) want everything handed to them on a silver platter. It's a global thing that's been going on for years, and kids now have grown up entirely in a world where they want it now, they want it delivered, it still better be hot when it gets here, and no inconvenience along the way. The concept that one must work hard--and, indeed, learn--in order to create or do something worthwhile has largely vanished. To use a parallel example, it's really easy to lose weight (barring certain medical conditions which don't apply to most people): eat less, especially less sugars, fats, and refined carbohydrates. Eat lots more plants, and more (non-fatty) protein. And get exercise. That's how to lose weight. What does everyone want? A miracle pill, a new fad diet, whatever promises instant results. Invariably, the weight doesn't disappear, or if it does it comes back quickly. Susan Powter was screaming about this nonsense in the 80's and was largely disregarded because she was so over the top. And so it goes with this sort of thing. The barrier to entry for level creation is vanishingly low, as we can see from the monumental amount of utter scheisse that populates the Cool Levels pages. I dare you, seriously, hit Quickplay a dozen times in a row. You will be lucky if you can find one decent playable level. The thing is people are unwilling to learn; look at how many levels promise 400 FREE PRIZES OMKG, and more importantly how many people play them and then whine that all their objects are gone. Frankly I'd be surprised if the Popit can even hold 400 community items. But I digress. The proper reaction to people complaining about difficulty in creation is for MM--and indeed this community, as it did with the Logic Pack--to create better and more detailed tutorials. The way to prevent people whining about the difficulty is not, categorically not to dumb it down. It is to provide better education and lead by example. | 2010-05-18 22:31:00 Author: roux-  Posts: 379 |
| In your opinion a guy that is born a bit retarded, has not the right to have fun creating and obtaining a playable result And to address this point separately: yeah, sorry. Welcome to the real world where people have different abilities. You're 5'6"? You will never be an NBA player. You can't carry a tune? You will never, American Idol and Autotune notwithstanding, be a great singer. You can't be bothered or are unable to learn how to use the incredibly simple worldbuilding tools? Too bad. Most people are able to learn, they just want to. And to be more specific with regards to developmentally delayed or mentally challenged people (seriously, don't ever use the word retarded again, it is about as offensive as you calling me a (censored; derogatory term for a man who likes other men) for example), they will create, as most of us do, for themselves. To the best of their abilities. And if other people like it, great--but if the social experiment that is LBP has taught us anything it is that people are less trying to create levels for other people to play (there are exceptions of course) inasmuch as they are saying Look at me! Here I am! I made something! | 2010-05-18 22:37:00 Author: roux- Posts: 379 |
| I don't see why it's such a bad idea to have a reduced subset of features available to ease the learning curve. When you start out at school, do they stick a University text on your desk and tell you to get on with it? No. A simplified interface will not stop people from learning, or even hand them things on a plate, it just makes the whole thing less overwhelming so they can learn. I'd like this feature because having a one-size-fits-all solution, for an audience ranging several decades in age and spanning all types of intellectual and artistic backgrounds is not actually conductive to anything particularly good. The advanced people lose out because the interface is slightly dumbed down (poor thermo display, lack of control over connector lengths, etc.) and the low end of the spectrum (for example kids who are able to learn, want to learn, but simply aren't used to such a sophisticated tool), struggle to understand what is going on, which is actually more of a detriment to the community as a whole. An advanced editor could provide all manner of diagnostic tools and creation techniques (mappable keyboard shortcuts etc.) that would really enhance the game for some of us. With a one size fits all solution, that's never going to happen as the game still needs to cater to the younger audience, for the obvious financial reasons. | 2010-05-18 22:48:00 Author: rtm223  Posts: 6497 |
| rtm223 has pretty much summed up everything I wanted to say. While I have to agree to what roux said (being that creators should be encouraged to put time and effort into a good creation, rather than hoping for a wonder-machine which builds polished levels with a flick of your wrist), I really think that two or even three editor modes could make the game more accessible for beginners and more enjoyable for the advanced creators alike. It could just be an option in the pause menu, directly under the grid setting, for example. Talking of the grid, they really should (or, hopefully, they already have done this) work on that option for lbp2. It's a great feat, but restricting us to squares of 2.5x2.5, 5x5 or 10x10 is quite a downside. That would be another great example for the "2 create modes" aspect - leave the 4 grid buttons in simple edit mode and give advanced creators a pop-up dialog in which they can set x- and y-measures + offset for their grid - and maybe even an opacity setting. Well, I guess I could list a whole bunch of tools and options which could change depending on the create mode of choice, but rtm summed it all up pretty well. Gonna end this posting before I earn a couple of tl;drs. | 2010-05-18 22:58:00 Author: Treas  Posts: 223 |
| I could see keeping the current toolset as the 'basic', with advanced options being more..um.. advanced. But I really don't see how to make create any simpler in a way that doesn't just open a firehose of poo all over the cool levels pages. The real problem that prevents people from learning is the whole H4H phenomenon. People create levels just to get the trophies, and never bother to actually learn how to create a good level. Unfortunately, that Pandora's box has been opened and cannot be closed again. | 2010-05-18 22:58:00 Author: roux- Posts: 379 |
| ... (being that creators should be encouraged to put time and effort into a good creation, rather than hoping for a wonder-machine which builds polished levels with a flick of your wrist) That's largely what I'm getting at here. No matter how simple you make it, people will whine and complain that it's too difficult, because they want to expend exactly zero effort. They wan, as you so astutely put it, a wonder-machine. | 2010-05-18 23:02:00 Author: roux- Posts: 379 |
| I really would love to see this, I've been ranting about wanting this feature to myself in LBP1 create but not in the same ways necessarily. I think it would be nice to have a simpler view for basic creators and people just looking to make something simple for fun. I'd be looking for more stats in an advanced view. Like number of vertices on a selected object, maybe even so far as if we have separate thermometers exactly what percentage of affected thermos an object takes up. These types of things would clutter an otherwise simple user interface so having them as an option would be essential. | 2010-05-18 23:12:00 Author: OneEyedBanshee  Posts: 1370 |
| well technically speaking there IS sort of a easy mode for create...since when you make your first level they have TEMPLATES which make a whole level for you so you don't have to start from scratch but yeah we all know thats not really enough....still tho its something | 2010-05-19 05:24:00 Author: Shadowcrazy  Posts: 3365 |
| Yeah, I see that the more open minded people has understood what I meant, and rtm comes to help my bad English. Things could be better both for n00bs and master creators, as some very good ideas shows. Then roux, treas, have you ever thought that bomb survivals and skate ramp could (I repeat, COULD) be a bypass product of the editor's learning curve. You seem to desperately want to make this game for the elite, why? To avoid the first page? | 2010-05-19 06:35:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112 |
| I totally agree with roux-. I'd also say it's the same people that get kaskaroto and clay_20_november to the Cool Levels. Their "levels" must be easy and non-challenging, without a single drop of challenge. Boo. | 2010-05-19 07:16:00 Author: Unknown User |
| No, why? A- Would make it more difficult to transition from easy - to normal creator mode (or whatever it was) B- Good creators will be accused many times of using the easy create mode or something (you know how they are, they'll try to take them down for anything) C-Making a really good level will not be something to be really proud about as a lot would be simplified and possible with a single button. D- Creators would get lazy, stop thinking on new ways to do stuff and simply simplified forms E- Well it just would be plain weird, besides, i ca't see how ou can even simplify it even more than it already is! I mean come on, its just pick your materials and build, what else do you want?! Do you want everything made for you?! what's this? On PSblog, for example, an uncle said that his nephews would create much better stuff with an easier interface, like ModNationRacers. (out of space) | 2010-05-19 07:46:00 Author: Silverleon  Posts: 6707 |
| ^ Oh well no duh he's gonna say something like that, he's being influenced by another game which will obviously have a different interface. May i remind you MNR and LBP are 2 completly different gsames? one more time. MNR - Racing. LBP - Platforming. LBP2 - Pretty much a bunch of everyhting. Yes? We finnaly got that? Ok moving on. I mean, come on, if you can'y build something doesn't mean its impossible, just means you have to be trying, ever heard of "Practice makes perfect"? No? Then there's your problem, you're spoiled. You just want everything handed to you. Remember that if you want to make something good then you actually have to put some effprt into it and not expect to have everything handed to you right away. I mean seriously Its a;ready extra simple, that you don't get it at first doesn't mean you never will, and with online create you can have people help you or teach you with what you can't do no? Bah but i've run out of space again so i'll stop now and simply say no, ok ,m8? or maybe  | 2010-05-19 07:47:00 Author: Silverleon Posts: 6707 |
| Yeah, I see that the more open minded people has understood what I meant, and rtm comes to help my bad English. Things could be better both for n00bs and master creators, as some very good ideas shows. Then roux, treas, have you ever thought that bomb survivals and skate ramp could (I repeat, COULD) be a bypass product of the editor's learning curve. You seem to desperately want to make this game for the elite, why? To avoid the first page? rtm223 has pretty much summed up everything I wanted to say. While I have to agree to what roux said (being that creators should be encouraged to put time and effort into a good creation, rather than hoping for a wonder-machine which builds polished levels with a flick of your wrist), I really think that two or even three editor modes could make the game more accessible for beginners and more enjoyable for the advanced creators alike. It could just be an option in the pause menu, directly under the grid setting, for example. Just wanted to point this out. I think you did either only read the first two lines of my post or didn't quite get what I wanted to say. | 2010-05-19 08:47:00 Author: Treas Posts: 223 |
| @S.Leon, you know what, I would really like LBP2 to sell 5 million, but I think that the game will sell less than 3 mil, since LBP1 has already sold 3,32 millions. All those copies around, plus the second hand copies, and only 2 millions levels in a year and a half, with 50% of trash h4h, bombs levels, 30% levels ranging from good to average, the last part with people involved in creations making from 4 to 10 levels each. Do some maths, how many really talented creators are out there? I bet you won't count more than 2 thousand on a 3 and a half million user base. So, outside this happy island called LBPC (and the other dedicated site), something does not work in MM concept or in MM way to reach their users with the concept. Sorry Treas, I misunderstood you. I apologize. Finally I would really like to hear what the son of CCubbage (a very talented child) thinks about this, so I'll PM him and ask him to kindly partecipate in this discussion. | 2010-05-19 09:27:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112 |
| Okay, I think I've got it worked out. This is how I see SIMPLE CREATE MODE: There are only four materials: Dark matter, pretty matter, solid matter, and grabby matter. --Dark matter: you know what it is. I'm thinking there could be an option that automatically makes all dark matter used turn invisible. --Pretty matter: When you place this down, you are telling the game "I want something to go here that's not particularly important but I want it nonetheless in order to make the game look pretty and sophisticated." You can decide if the pretty matter is designed for indoor settings or outdoor settings (there may have to be two different Pretty Matters for this purpose). --Solid matter: This is the matter your sackperson will be walking on and jumping on, but it can also be the matter that some piston or bolt somewhere is moving about. This matter will be replaced by the suitable matter plus border matter (if it's thick enough) to make it look cool. Grabby matter: Same as Solid matter except it's grab-able. After you place all your matters down and weld them together with your tools, it's time to select your theme. Just choose a background, and your Pretty, Solid, and Grabby materials will be replaced with the suitable materials that match the background you selected. Pretty matter will not be completely filled in with the template decorations (that's why it's a separate material), and it will have stickers on it (provided you collected the appropriate stickers). If you want to make a few tweaks to the decorations that are in the level or the type of material that is used, you'll have to go to NORMAL CREATE MODE. SPECIAL NOTE: Backgrounds will only be selectable in Simple Mode if the appropriate material has been collected in Story Mode. Since the weight of the randomized materials has not been determined, certain tweak-able aspects of certain tools such as the strength of motor bolts and pistons will not be available in Simple mode | 2010-05-19 10:04:00 Author: MMLgamer Posts: 183 |
| Yeah, I see that the more open minded people has understood what I meant, and rtm comes to help my bad English. Things could be better both for n00bs and master creators, as some very good ideas shows. Then roux, treas, have you ever thought that bomb survivals and skate ramp could (I repeat, COULD) be a bypass product of the editor's learning curve. You seem to desperately want to make this game for the elite, why? To avoid the first page? Making this game for the people who can be bothered to actually create a level[/], and not just go through the motions to get a freakin' trophy... well, if you think that's making it for the elite then I am afraid we live on different planets. Bomb survivals, shark attacks, skateboard ramps... yes, one [i]could argue that they are part of the learning process. But--and this is important--a vanishingly small number of people who produce (I refuse to say 'create&apos  these levels ever go on to do anything more or better. They make the level, publish it--bam! Trophy! Then they H4H it until, you guessed it, another trophy! Beyond that they don't much care. | 2010-05-19 10:23:00 Author: roux- Posts: 379 |
| I'm pretty sure Mm will NOT include a heart-based trophy this time. I guess they'll also try to base the feedback you get mostly on the stars your levels earned, rather than on the hearts. This way, they would ensure that hearts are only used for their original purpose: "marking" levels you liked so you can easily find them again. That said, a basic create mode wouldn't hurt anyone. Not overly basic, but there's some aspects which new creators really don't need or just get confused of. I'm short on time at the moment, but I'll probably list some possible differences between normal and basic create when I get back home. | 2010-05-19 10:41:00 Author: Treas Posts: 223 |
| So, outside this happy island called LBPC (and the other dedicated site), something does not work in MM concept or in MM way to reach their users with the concept. And that is where you are very, very wrong. Media buzz about LBP and LBP2 was and continues to be huge. It has sold over three million copies (that would mean a low estimate of around $150 million dollars US in revenue, of which one could safely assume between 10% and 20% is profit). The game was voted Game Of The Year. It has created a total shift in gaming culture. Yes, other games (starting notably with Doom and Quake) have had user-generated content for nigh on 15 years now. But that has always been for the elite, has always been for the people who are seriously into the game. The beauty of LBP--and the downfall, as we see on the Cool Levels pages--is that it is so very easy to create. It is made for the casual gamer, and has been a success in the same way the Wii was a success; pretty much anyone from age 4 to 94 (side note: The Queen gave Prince William a Wii for Christmas the year it came out. Guess which one of them, according to news reports, played with it more that day. LBP has the same broad appeal) can pick up a sixaxis, learn to play the game, and create their own levels. The fact that many people create complete crud is irrelevant to MM and Sony from a business standpoint. In business, the only questions are: can we make money on this? and can we make more money on this? With LBP, the answers to those questions are 'yes' and 'of course, that's what DLC is for.' Making it easier for lazy people to create more godawful levels isn't exactly high on MM's priority list, at least not from a revenue standpoint. MM's concept is simple: Play, Create, Share. Over three million people are playing the game--in fact, well over three million, as most homes with PS3s in them have more than one person living there. Of those millions of people, over two million user-generated levels have been created and shared. When I logged into LBP earlier tonight, it told me there were three and a half thousand new levels since the last time I logged in. Which was yesterday. Are you seriously trying to get us to believe that MM has failed somehow? They have failed in the same way that Apple failed with the iPad, then. Okay, I think I've got it worked out. This is how I see SIMPLE CREATE MODE: Oh dear god please no. Please. Oh god no. No. Just no. The signal to noise ratio will be unbearable. That sort of simple create--indeed, any sort as far as I am concerned--will absolutely flood the servers with nearly-identical crud. This is what you guys aren't getting. Lower the barrier to entry--which is already pretty freaking low--and the overall quality of levels will go downhill, not up. Sure, create more advanced tools for advanced level builders. Give them more access to the nuts and bolts that MM programmers have access to (although it's worth pointing out they built levels with a sixaxis the same way we do). Do not dumb it down, unless--and only unless it is possible for the rest of us to simply never see the crud that will be generated. Frankly, if I could filter out anything that had 'survival' or 'h4h' in the title, I'd be a happier man today. | 2010-05-19 11:10:00 Author: roux- Posts: 379 |
| Oh dear god please no. Please. Oh god no. No. Just no. The signal to noise ratio will be unbearable. That sort of simple create--indeed, any sort as far as I am concerned--will absolutely flood the servers with nearly-identical crud. As opposed to the flood of crud flooding the servers now? At least this way, it will look better. Besides, I imagine the problem most creators have is how to design their levels. This way, they will have one less thing to worry about and they can concentrate on the platforming aspect of the level, and if they want to change the look, they can use their material changer tool, add a few things to the background, place decorations that they think are necessary, etc. This is what you guys aren't getting. Lower the barrier to entry--which is already pretty freaking low--and the overall quality of levels will go downhill, not up. Sure, create more advanced tools for advanced level builders. Give them more access to the nuts and bolts that MM programmers have access to (although it's worth pointing out they built levels with a sixaxis the same way we do). Do not dumb it down, unless--and only unless it is possible for the rest of us to simply never see the crud that will be generated. Frankly, if I could filter out anything that had 'survival' or 'h4h' in the title, I'd be a happier man today.What you don't seem to get is that there is not one barrier to entry, but several. My idea only focuses on one of those barriers: the overall look of the level. It doesn't make the creativity behind the platforming elements any easier for the creator, because in most decent levels the platforming elements are simple but the cosmetic aspects are professional. | 2010-05-19 11:51:00 Author: MMLgamer Posts: 183 |
| You know roux, seeing all this stubborn aggressive spirit, I thought...who is roux? I don't remember him as one of the greatest creator around, I actually never heard of him, let's see his profile page...let's see all the started threads... https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=19024-Arbitrary-Platformer Arbitrary Platformer roux- This is pretty much pure platforming. Flip switches, open doors, jump from ledge to ledge. Not much story to it, on purpose. applepod: screens? I have no idea how to get screenshots off my PS3 onto the interwebs, sorry. So, basically you're a n00b, like you call them, that didn't even know how to take a pic in game, and after some months of visiting the forum you now know something just because there's people that were so nice to share their knowledge with everyone. I think that you would have needed something easier. | 2010-05-19 12:13:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112 |
I'd say that there could be a simplified interface. Possibly like the one presented before. And they could publish their levels, because they definately want to show their come-uppances to other folk. And the Cool Levels system would have filters to view only levels made in the simple create mode, or the advanced, so the "n00b levels" wouldnt be clotting the advanced Cool Levels. Just an idea. You can toggle wheter you want to see any simplified levels or not.  | 2010-05-19 12:45:00 Author: Unknown User |
| They should have that in the game. A point of little big planet is to let everybody make levels and some pepole are born with a skill and other pepole have to work harder. EXCLEENT SUGGESTION | 2010-05-19 12:58:00 Author: Junkyardassissan  Posts: 164 |
| And the Cool Levels system would have filters to view only levels made in the simple create mode, or the advanced, so the "n00b levels" wouldnt be clotting the advanced Cool Levels. Just an idea. This is a fantastic idea. Admittedly it is easily bypassable by spammers, but still a good idea. Anyways I think there is going to be a significant overhaul of the community aspect anyways in lbp2, as it is a known issue. Realistically though, to the people who believe a simplified interface would encourage people to create worse levels: that's complete crap. If someone just wants to throw some pink floaty and dark matter down and call it a level (which to be honest, I don't have a problem with), then they can do that whatever interface you give them. And if you throw the entirety of the LBP2 interface (which remember is going to be vastly more complex than LBP1), they are liable to suffer information overload and believe that they can do no better, which actually more likely to encourage them to not learn more. Give them a tiered system and they can get comfortable with a subset of the tools, then move onto the next tier, which is exactly how everyone in the world, ever, has learned anything. Of course it's possible for us to structure this ourselves, but some people genuinely struggle to learn without prescribed structure (even if it's only a very loose one). Just think how long it takes a lot of creators to get comfortable with the corner editing tool, which is an absolute must for quality creation. Many people didn't "get it" to begin with so they left it alone and played around with everything else. Dump that in basic tools, when there is less to distract you away from it and that says "this is something everyone should know how to use", thus encouraging development of a very important skill, one that arguably isn't understood well enough by many in the community, partially due to the one-size-fits-all interface. But let me repeat, we will not do away with what people consider to be the noob levels. At best we will have better searching facilities. A tiered creation mode will not make a jot of difference to the overall state of the community levels, what it will do is help some of those who want to learn to do so. Furthermore, a basic editor will not stop people creating good levels. If you gave me access to: Materials, connectors, Levers Push button, points, checkpoints, corner editor, I could make a good, gameplay oriented, level. Not a fantastic level, not anything that would blow your socks off, but something good. So a basic editor would not actually result in only bad levels being made from it. I'd expect basic mode to have more than that, but you get the idea. | 2010-05-19 13:26:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497 |
| I'm a bit torn..... as a software developer, I can say that creating 2 interfaces rarely makes things easier - from a support standpoint, people doing things multiple ways can actually confuse things. Usually software hides advanced options that less people will use until they choose to turn them on via options - such as you can turn on multi-line classes in QuickBooks. The way LittleBigPlanet is designed, it slowly opens up the features as someone uses the tutorials. So, if a child begins creating by playing through the tutorials...which opens up new tools a bit at a time....they can use create mode just fine. My son was 6 years old when he started playing LittleBigPlanet (he's now 8), and I gave him his own PSN and let him play through the tutorials. He has NO issue whatsoever using create mode and the available tools. After the initial tools were introduced, he had no problem learning to use the additional tools as they came along, such as the paintinator - since there were tutorials for those tools also. In the example given in the OP, did the nephew play through the tutorials, or did the uncle play the tutorials then turn the create mode over to the nephew with everything totally opened? This could certainly be confusing, but it wouldn't be the games fault. (honestly, I was a bit surprised I didn't see anyone here mention the tutorials, as the tutorial process does pretty much what you are asking for.... it provides a natural tiered approach to the features) | 2010-05-19 13:58:00 Author: CCubbage  Posts: 4430 |
| So, basically you're a n00b, like you call them, that didn't even know how to take a pic in game, and after some months of visiting the forum you now know something just because there's people that were so nice to share their knowledge with everyone. I think that you would have needed something easier. You should attack the argument and not the man. His levels are actually pretty decent, although they are a bit confusing. I'd say that there could be a simplified interface. Possibly like the one presented before. And they could publish their levels, because they definately want to show their come-uppances to other folk. And the Cool Levels system would have filters to view only levels made in the simple create mode, or the advanced, so the "n00b levels" wouldnt be clotting the advanced Cool Levels. Just an idea. You can toggle wheter you want to see any simplified levels or not. The filter is a bad idea simply because no one will bother playing the Simple Create Mode levels. Besides, the filter could be overcome simply by saving the Simple level while using Advanced Create Mode. When I detailed what SIMPLE CREATE MODE could be like, I was thinking of it not as a generic level creator for beginners who lack the experience and artistic talent. I was thinking of it more as a jumping-off point for those creators who want to build something big, but simply have trouble getting it started. | 2010-05-19 14:20:00 Author: MMLgamer Posts: 183 |
| I'm a bit torn..... as a software developer, I can say that creating 2 interfaces rarely makes things easier - from a support standpoint, people doing things multiple ways can actually confuse things. Usually software hides advanced options that less people will use until they choose to turn them on via options - such as you can turn on multi-line classes in QuickBooks. The way LittleBigPlanet is designed, it slowly opens up the features as someone uses the tutorials. So, if a child begins creating by playing through the tutorials...which opens up new tools a bit at a time....they can use create mode just fine. My son was 6 years old when he started playing LittleBigPlanet (he's now 8), and I gave him his own PSN and let him play through the tutorials. He has NO issue whatsoever using create mode and the available tools. After the initial tools were introduced, he had no problem learning to use the additional tools as they came along, such as the paintinator - since there were tutorials for those tools also. In the example given in the OP, did the nephew play through the tutorials, or did the uncle play the tutorials then turn the create mode over to the nephew with everything totally opened? This could certainly be confusing, but it wouldn't be the games fault. (honestly, I was a bit surprised I didn't see anyone here mention the tutorials, as the tutorial process does pretty much what you are asking for.... it provides a natural tiered approach to the features) Tutorials can be a drama, especially for not English countries. Italian tutorials are translated with the feet, if you understand what I mean. I don't know for the ohe regions, but I and the others Italians had our share of problems to understand things like the "stiffness" of a piston, since they translated stiff like "blocked" and not with its true meaning. @MMLgamer... I attack him because he himself proved that his point is not valid since he didn't even bother to learn how to take pics, simple thing perhaps, but refuse to accept the idea to give a simplier interface to people that want a less steep learning curve. | 2010-05-19 14:33:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112 |
| Tutorials can be a drama, especially for not English countries. Hmmm... so, maybe the issue is better translated tutorials? Obviously I can only relate to American English, as that's the only language I know. I guess I assumed the tutorials would make sense to other countries also. | 2010-05-19 14:42:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430 |
| I did think of the tutorials, but my main thought why they don't exactly do as suggested is that there is a reward tied into rushing through them. In many ways the set up of the tutorials encourages you to complete them as quickly as possible. It does not encourage you to actually become comfortable with the tools - it actually pushes you in the opposite direction. On the other hand maybe the tiered system would be no better at this, maybe people would just rush through the tutorials, believe they know everything and stick to the advanced view. But at least if someone felt overwhelmed they could cut down on the tools available to them for a while. | 2010-05-19 14:53:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497 |
| Well... as mentioned, all I can go by is what I see. My 6-year-old son made it through the tutorials without any issue. He loved it, and it was fun. He then started creating his own levels - and he's been comfortable with the tools ever since. However, maybe if you "heart" a tool it could be put somewhere more accessible for easy access. So, an uncle could "heart" the tools he feels his nephew needs. However, my son and his friends sit and create games together, and they are all 8 years and younger, so I'm having a hard time believing the tools are THAT complicated. | 2010-05-19 15:25:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430 |
| I did think of the tutorials, but my main thought why they don't exactly do as suggested is that there is a reward tied into rushing through them. In many ways the set up of the tutorials encourages you to complete them as quickly as possible. It does not encourage you to actually become comfortable with the tools - it actually pushes you in the opposite direction. On the other hand maybe the tiered system would be no better at this, maybe people would just rush through the tutorials, believe they know everything and stick to the advanced view. But at least if someone felt overwhelmed they could cut down on the tools available to them for a while. Well, I never played an LBP tutorial in English, but in Italian (and I think there's a1 to 1 translation) no one explains how the spread of the wobble works. At CC Do you think that your boy will feel at ease with a new much more expanded interface? Do you think that if a friend of your boy buys LBP2 without having experienced LBP1 will feel at ease? Since my concern is how new users will feel when they have to go through an amount of stuff, that at the moment just overwhelms people with experience and that it's surely not everything MM has in the box. | 2010-05-19 15:46:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112 |
| Good idea, shouldnt be to hard to implement, but you should be able to swap whenever (like grid mode) and the items considered 'advanced' are like greyed out? Also, maybe they should have more in depth tutorials to explain better? | 2010-05-19 16:17:00 Author: Matimoo  Posts: 1027 |
| Do you think that your boy will feel at ease with a new much more expanded interface? Do you think that if a friend of your boy buys LBP2 without having experienced LBP1 will feel at ease? .... this thread is too much like my job..... Ok, here goes.... it all depends on the implementation, which I haven't seen yet. You can't say "software will be x difficult because of the features it contains". It all depends on how well the interface hides complexity. I'll give you an example: a word processor looks like a big white screen when you pull it up. It appears simple and most people can write a simple document and hit the print button. When the software developer adds features (which they do constantly), it doesn't necessarily make the software more difficult to use if they find ways to hide the complexity from the user. Most users, however, don't NEED the complexity - but the new features don't hinder them. So, what is the issue this thread is addressing? Is is that LBP2 requires 2 interfaces (which is a conclusion), or that LBP2 needs to be intuitive (which is a problem that could have multiple solutions). LittleBigPlanet 2 won't have 2 interfaces. I don't work for MM and can't promise this, however MM's goal is to have a single intuitive interface.... not to have a hard one and an easy one. They will attempt to build the interface as best they can to be accessible to everyone.... because that's what LBP is all about. So, most likely they would be more interested in suggestions helping them to make the 1 interface easier, rather than have 2 interfaces. | 2010-05-19 17:35:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430 |
| So, basically you're a n00b, like you call them, that didn't even know how to take a pic in game, and after some months of visiting the forum you now know something just because there's people that were so nice to share their knowledge with everyone. I think that you would have needed something easier. Okay, uh... you can go do something anatomically impossible. I'm far from a n00b, and you will notice that at no point have I insulted you. It is a truism that people resort to personal insults and attacks when they have no argument whatsoever. Go play Arbitrary Platformer (and #2), and tell me I'm a freakin' n00b, child. I'd say that there could be a simplified interface. Possibly like the one presented before. And they could publish their levels, because they definately want to show their come-uppances to other folk. And the Cool Levels system would have filters to view only levels made in the simple create mode, or the advanced, so the "n00b levels" wouldnt be clotting the advanced Cool Levels. Just an idea. You can toggle wheter you want to see any simplified levels or not. The only circumstance under which a simplified creation system wouldn't fill me with despair is if there were such a filtering system that was impossible to cheat. Would be trivial to implement; if you have ever used Simple Create to work on your level, the system writes something into that level (that carries over when copying), and it only appears on Simple pages. @MMLgamer... I attack him because he himself proved that his point is not valid since he didn't even bother to learn how to take pics, simple thing perhaps, but refuse to accept the idea to give a simplier interface to people that want a less steep learning curve. That is no excuse. For one, screenshots aren't that important to me. For another, my PS3, as I stated in that thread, is not very cooperative about recognising any of the flash drives I own, even when I format them according to Sony instructions. So how about you take your nonsense somewhere else, ok? Go look up the term ad hominem, and you will find out exactly why you lost all validity as soon as you attacked me. Oh, and rtm... you could create a playable level with spit and duct tape, the same way I can make a decent meal as long as I have a source of heat and some product. I respectfully suggest you're a bit of an outlier. The reason why lowering the bar will cause more of a flood of nonsense is that then creators can be even lazier when it comes to making their rage-inducing H4H dark matter flying pink floaty levels. | 2010-05-19 18:12:00 Author: roux- Posts: 379 |
| This. This is a great idea. I was thinking about Modnation Racers. They essentially have a "Create your own track in 5 minutes" mode. While the templates in LBP were nice, a more streamlined "easy" tool for beginner creators would be really great. Say there's a new feature in the pop-it where instead of carving out material, it will carve out a "theme" with decorations and lighting all attached. so instead of drawing out sponge, they draw out sponge with lights and decorations and things already added in. They could also throw in a gadget bag with already made gadgets like elevators, doors, vehicles, etc. that people can easily place. It bypasses laziness and will make even the crappiest levels at least look decent. | 2010-05-19 19:19:00 Author: jjmusicman Posts: 234 |
| I'm far from a n00b, and you will notice that at no point have I insulted you. [...] Go play Arbitrary Platformer (and #2), and tell me I'm a freakin' n00b, child. Okay. That's one 'insult' each ('n00b' vs. 'child&apos . You're both adults, so can we leave it at that, and get back to the topic at hand please?  On the subject, LBP1 kinda already eased you in to the creating process by only unlocking tools as you went through the tutorial process, so that by the time you have the full toolset available, you should already know how to use the tools. Also, MM have done a pretty good job of making the 'complex' interface simple enough for anyone to create something, so I'm not sure why having two different interfaces would be much of a win, especially as the extra UI complexity is likely to increase the probability of defects in the software. | 2010-05-19 19:26:00 Author: Aya042  Posts: 2870 |
| Frankly, if I could filter out anything that had 'survival' or 'h4h' in the title, I'd be a happier man today. This might be slightly off-topic, but I just wanted to point out that "survival" and "bomb survival" aren't congruent terms. "bomb survivals" are only one gameplay concept in the survival genre which massively hurt the reputation of survival-levels in general. I recommend taking a look at the levels of Nuclearfish and myself (PSN ID: Treas). I'm a survival-maniac, inventing new gameplay mechanics and then creating survival challenges around them, so please don't generalize survivals. Thanks | 2010-05-19 22:42:00 Author: Treas Posts: 223 |
| The reason that I proposed the "simply created" levels to be able to be published is that wouldn't it draw many beginners away from it if they're not able to publish them and show them to other beginners? People would automatically know that these creators could use some constructive feedback instead of just mindless spammers. As for jjmusicman's idea to get an "Auto Decorate" to LBP, I think it wouldn't feel the same anymore. Perhaps it's just for the simplified create mode? As for Treas' survivals, I keep continually being boggled how he keeps the thermo from not blowing up especially in those gauntlet levels with probably 10 different sections to come... And I love them! | 2010-05-20 05:55:00 Author: Unknown User |
| As I said, LBP2 risks to sell less than LBP1, since the people that found the first difficult are not going to buy the second if they know that it's much more complex. There's always an amount of people that doesn't care about the sales, but less revenue means less support from the develooper. That's my only concern. | 2010-05-20 07:08:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112 |
| Thanks It's 22 sections in Jungle Drums and something over 30 in Tomb Turmoil. And I do so much hope that the thermo + new logics will allow for massively more elements in lbp2 @Topic: I agree with OmegaSlayer on this point. I think that people who found LBP1 to be difficult (and I know quite an amount of such people) might be scared of all the new features. Simple thought: "If I weren't even able to create a platformer level, how should I ever create a whole new game?". Nonetheless, I think Mm are on the right path here. I'm pretty sure that most people here in the community like the idea of having more tools at their disposal. People who are not willing to learn the ropes of the new editor for any reason might still be attracted by the story mode (although I really think Mm should expand that one; on one hand, we all know how much time it consumes to create a cool LBP level, but still, 50-ish levels (part of which are minigames) might not be sufficient to attract many players, especially if they're not interested in the create aspect. Anyways - I really wouldn't worry. If Mm should ever be low on budget (which I highly doubt would happen), they can just release some fancy costumes. Good creators will buy them for their sackbots, and all the play-only people out there will buy them to show off in front of their friends (seriously, I've got a few of those in my friends list, and they love just toggle between all their premium costumes, so I think that's sort of a money-making secret weapon). | 2010-05-20 08:31:00 Author: Treas Posts: 223 |
| This has been a pretty interesting debate. I can appreciate both points of view, but I think I've gotta' come down on the single ui side of things. It's not hard to create in lbp. Just grab some materials and start creating. The thing that's tough is creating well, but that's always the case. You don't get much simpler than a pencil and paper, but some people can create masterpieces with them and others struggle to create stick figures. In lbp, we've got our pencils, paints, various brushes, and I could go on naming ever more complicated art supplies, but the point is, if you can only handle drawing with a pencil, then just draw with the pencil. You don't need to hide all the other stuff. When it comes down to it, anybody can create in lbp. The "problem" is that there are some creators who are better than others and then there are the ones who are phenomenal, and this creates an inequality... but that's life. We can't all be phenomenal, so just do your best, create what you can, and rather than compare your levels to Jack's, your logic to Rtm's, your mechs to mine (c'mon, you knew I had to throw at least a little self aggrandizing in there), compare them to your past achievements. Are you getting better? If so, keep it up and only look at other people's work for inspiration and/or to learn new things (and, you know, to like have fun playing them and stuff). As for the point about the cool levels page being flooded with crap: so what? When I first started playing lbp, it took me all of half an hour to realize that cool levels and quick play weren't worth my time. I would check out level reviews on various sites and I'd check the level promotion areas for levels that looked interesting. For the longest time, when everybody would complain about bomb survivals, I had no idea what they were talking about 'cuz I'd never seen one. I finally tried a few just to see what it was all about (and yes, they're crap). I've still never seen a shark survival. My point is that if the system doesn't work for you individually, instead of complaining about the system, find a way of dealing with it that does work for you. To Roux, while I can sympathize with your frustration at the difficulty of finding decent levels to play, I must point out that in the same post where you've told everybody that if they find it too difficult to create they just need to work harder, you went on to complain that it's too difficult to find the good levels. Perhaps you should work harder at finding them. I hope that doesn't come across as being mean or sarcastic: I don't have any hard feelings toward you and I've liked quite a bit of what you've said (though you could've probably worded things a bit more diplomatically), and I cracked up when I read this: Okay, uh... you can go do something anatomically impossible. I had to think about that one for a second before it hit me. I'm gonna' use that all the time now I thanked your post just because of that one line. | 2010-05-20 11:57:00 Author: Sehven  Posts: 2188 |
| As for the point about the cool levels page being flooded with crap: so what? When I first started playing lbp, it took me all of half an hour to realize that cool levels and quick play weren't worth my time. Indeed. There seem to be two separate discussions going on here, one about whether having a separate simplified interface would provide a shallower learning curve for new creators, and something about trying to prevent the Cool Levels pages being filled with worthless drivel. Now, although you could separate the levels on the server depending on which of the two interfaces was used to create it, I feel that there would be better solution to the 'Cool Levels problem' than this (like, say, just not having it), so using it as an argument to support the inclusion of two separate user interfaces would seem a tad weak, since it would seem just as possible to create an absolutely dreadful level using the 'advanced' interface as it would with the 'simple' one. Plus the argument would seem somewhat moot, in that I very much doubt that MM would even consider including two separate interfaces in LBP2. | 2010-05-20 12:42:00 Author: Aya042 Posts: 2870 |
| I like idea of two creating modes, one with all basic stuff that is needed to create good levels and other with all advanced toppings that MM is going to put in LBP2. This feature would be good for all those beginners who don't have such experience on creating levels in LBP1 that many creator here haves. In LBP2 there is all things that were in LBP1 and more which makes learning to create great levels even more harder for new players. Because of this many beginners will surely feel themselves overwhelmed by all new things to learn. This learning process could be made easier by making new and way better tutorials and/or by separating beginners from distracting and confusing complex tools in my opinion. These modes should be option that you can easily toggle from start-menu when creating and because both modes would be similar to each other it would be easy to switch from mode to another without re-learning. In advanced mode there would be more features like separated thermos, advanced tweaks on connectors like strength, advanced logic pieces and other stuff like that. | 2010-05-20 14:10:00 Author: waD_Delma  Posts: 282 |
| To say, I think we're repeating the same conversation from pages 1-2 in 3-4. Just make my idea (sure I'm not the only one who has thought of it, but I'm not taking credit from others [if anyone gives me credit {who would?}]) about filters and customizing Your Own Cool Levels Page. If it has become true, yay. YAY. YAY! | 2010-05-20 19:01:00 Author: Unknown User |
| You cut out people that has difficulties in the learning curve as well as hindering the creativity of lots of children. As I said, placing a wobble bolt can cause headaches, and not everyone that wants to create is willing to visit a site like this "just" to create. In my opinion your position kills the fun of people who has less abilities. In your opinion a guy that is born a bit retarded, has not the right to have fun creating and obtaining a playable result My favorite post ever... | 2010-05-21 01:09:00 Author: Madafaku  Posts: 738 |
| I agree with Roux for 90% of this argument. The create mode in LBP1 is already quite low, and new creators putting in some time to learn how to use the tools is the main problem with LBP today. I severely doubt that Mm would take the time to create an "easy" mode, when the only thing it would honestly do would be bring down the creative and high quality level count in LBP. | 2010-05-21 01:15:00 Author: nitewalker11  Posts: 222 |
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