Archive: 16 posts

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I'm creating my first level and I've run into a really frustrating glitch when I put together different sections of my level. To give you an idea of how I'm putting it together, the level is about being swallowed by a dragon and working your way through its insides. So the whole thing needs to have the flat-layer "background", I don't want people to see the sky through the dragon's insides, if that makes sense. I'm trying to make my sections the "right way", by not gluing the whole thing together but making different pieces and holding them up with dark matter. The problem I'm having is making a seamless background without sticking two sections together. Obviously the most seamless is to draw the next section's background right up to the last section in the flat back layer, but I find that once I bolt the new section's walls to the new background, it makes it attach to the old section! So instead I tried making the new background not touch the old, bolt on the new pieces (including some dark matter), then use the edges editor to pull the new background flush against the old one. Sometimes you can see little slivers of background if it's not lined up properly but I can fix those. The problem is, I've set up a new section like this but when I went into play mode, the new section had moved slightly which made it run into the old section's background which made it disappear. Now every time I switch modes the new section keeps moving slightly. It's driving me nuts! I can't get them lined up at all now, there's always a gap and every time I swap I have to adjust again. Is there an easier way to do this? What am I doing wrong?

2010-02-28 01:14:00 Author: munchymunchy Posts: 5

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Are you utilising the grid during create mode?

2010-02-28 03:35:00 Author: Unknown User

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I'm trying to make my sections the "right way", by not gluing the whole thing together but making different pieces and holding them up with dark matter. The problem I'm having is making a seamless background without sticking two sections together. Obviously the most seamless is to draw the next section's background right up to the last section in the flat back layer, but I find that once I bolt the new section's walls to the new background, it makes it attach to the old section! "The right way"? Who told you this? I see several problems with what you're trying to do. First of all, you need to shed your fear of gluing things and stop trying to build in permanent modules. Whoever told you that gluing was the wrong way to go is seriously misinformed. Moreso, when you don't glue, it's very easy to accidentally grab your "sections" and move them without even realizing it. You might wonder why after 10 hours in create mode you have two sections that previously lined up that are now unaligned... this is probably why. But, the editor is also prone to microshifts in the environment as well. Things that align to grid in one instance might not align to the grid later. You have to learn to work around this. Gluing ensures that things don't shift like this. Generally speaking, I glue everything, and always directionally. I'm very careful with what I glue and to what I glue it to. I will use dark matter to hold up sections of my level as I'm piecing it together, but through the course of adding detail and molding things together, it all becomes one piece. If I need to make changes and move out sections, I cut them out. Worse, by using bolts to attach your backgrounds, you are increasing your moving objects thermo needlessly. Anything attached by bolts is not rigid and is especially susceptible to microshifts in the editor. If you want seamless backgrounds, then glue them and either use the corner editor or the grid to make them join flush. Be careful with the corner editor - if you can no longer shape an object, you've managed to merge it with another object (in other words, part of one object becomes embedded in another - this is a persistent bug in the game) - and this can cause things to go poof.

2010-02-28 04:38:00 Author: Thegide Posts: 1465

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To answer your questions - Sometimes I use the grid when first making my walls but sometimes not. Because the level is inside a dragon, I want some freedom of rounded angles that the grid just doesn't give me. And as to why I haven't glued it all together, so far I've read many readmes (including on this very help forum about the "unglue problem") that warn against over-use of glue. They keep mentioning glitches that can occur if your whole level is glued together.

2010-02-28 05:36:00 Author: munchymunchy Posts: 5

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are you worried that about shapes becoming too complicated? Because when I was working on my last level I had that problem right at the very end of the level. I tried just making the last chunk and sticking it with dark matter but It started to move too causing a lot of rewinding and reworking. I agree with thegide, it is much better to have it all glued down. Also, glueing helps keep the thermo low which is something you should always try to do.

2010-02-28 05:45:00 Author: shebhnt Posts: 414

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I don't quite understand what you're saying, but I assume you're speaking of the portions in between your two backgrounds is being more distant, giving way to the sky. Gluing is fine. Don't worry about it. I've only had the unglue glitch once, and it was easy to fix (and believe me, the whole level was rather large and had multiple pieces). Now to fix the whole sky showing up in between the two pieces, begin by using the corner editor to connect them as seamlessly as possible. Attempt to "zip" it up against the other piece. Now if you don't want those "seams" to show, place another material in front of the seams by using a 1 layer back layer block or something. That's the best I can suggest assuming your problem is what I think it is. xD

2010-02-28 05:55:00 Author: AeroForce22 Posts: 392

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You can totally build in sections, but just make sure your sections are not overlapping. Then, just box-select the whole section to move it around. As for bolting... an object bolted to an object which is itself bolted to something else will all be one object. If you are building in sections, you don't necessarily have to use the grid, it will just make it easier to move them into their final positions (assuming you don't build everything in the correct position to being with). I always try to build in sections, but sections invariably get glued to one another. This is not really a problem, within reason. The only real benefits of building in sections is that it allows you to more quickly modify the level, and it cuts down on sticker glitching (if you are using big stickers throughout). But honestly, bolting is the bad way to go. Under laggy conditions, bolts misbehave and the level will have some strange behavior. It will all work correctly, it will just look funny. As for the grid, what Thegide said above is not entirely true. Your grid does not become misaligned on its own. It occurs when you move from no grid to grid when the object is already close to the grid, but slightly misaligned. It will not correct itself unless you do one of two things. Turn the grid back off and purposely move the object into a position that is not close to the grid alignment (this takes a bit of guessing), and then turn the grid back on. It will now auto-align when you move it. Delete the object, close your popit, and place it again. The grid "resets" when you leave your materials bag.

2010-02-28 14:37:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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I also build in sections (for flexibility), and there are ways to keep most seams invisible. I build in small grid mode, paused so I don't have to worry about things crashing to the ground. I only glue stuff together (no bolts or rods) when I'm happy with the total picture, so I don't have to unglue often. Also, at this point it's easier to see how to divide you sections without visible seams, and you can easily rebuild a small part to hide a seam. For more fluent shapes I temporarily switch off the grid and use the corner editor to apply detail. When I have a large shape that I don't want to cut up, I keep it separate, just supported by some dark matter. So, I'm not sure how you dragon insides look, but you maybe you could leave the back side open until you're done with the basics, and then draw a huge thin layer block behind everything. That would have no seams.

2010-02-28 21:51:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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Thanks for the help guys. To try to give you a better idea what I'm talking about, because I seem to have confused some people, I've made a very bad Paint drawing of my level "outline" (at least, as far as I've gotten up to now). http://i46.tinypic.com/15i6rdc.jpg The dark green represents the outline of the dragon and is 3 layers deep. The light green represents all the fun stuff inside like platforms, spinning bits, etc and they're either glued to the dark green or to the background. The different shades of red are the thin-layer background which I've bolted to the dark green. The thin black lines represent the border between sections. The major problems I've had is the seams between red backgrounds and where the thin black lines are. Part of the problem is that I don't want plain straight lines between them, it looks more visually appealing for the red background to have zig-zag borders. But what I'm hearing is that what I should have done is made the dark green into one long continuous line rather than worry about sections - that's great news because it's a heckuva lot easier. And the red-background transitions will be easier too (I don't mind keeping them in because it adds visual interest). And that I should forget about the bolts but just glue the background to the dark green. One thing I don't quite understand though is what you mean by bolts adding "thermo"? Whilst I have some good heads around, I've got another lesser annoyance. In that last section where sackboy goes straight down, I wanted to do the thing where you grab a circle that slowly lowers you down a winch to the bottom, and you avoid obstacles on the way. I've made some sweet flaming platforms that go back and forth (using invisible pistons) that you have to avoid as you go down. The only problem is, if you die halfway and the winch starts to return to the top, it sometimes gets caught on the moving platforms. I've made another breathtakingly artistic masterpiece to illustrate what's happening. http://i46.tinypic.com/2hnt3dd.jpg I'm pretty sure there are similar hazards in the game level but I don't remember them being stuck in the game before. Any ideas out of this problem?

2010-02-28 22:56:00 Author: munchymunchy Posts: 5

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You could make the bottom of the platforms slightly concave, where its a VERY shallow V on the bottom of the flaming platforms. That could help, maybe.

2010-02-28 23:19:00 Author: Ragfell Posts: 729

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But what I'm hearing is that what I should have done is made the dark green into one long continuous line rather than worry about sections - that's great news because it's a heckuva lot easier. And the red-background transitions will be easier too (I don't mind keeping them in because it adds visual interest). And that I should forget about the bolts but just glue the background to the dark green. I wouldn't go as far as saying the dark green should be one continuous line, because it is probably complex and it might run into the too complex object thermo. The red background on the other hand can be a lot more angular because its edges are hidden behind the green, so that could probably be one piece. If you want to try and merge the green parts together, make sure you back up the level first. Also, zig-zag sounds very doable in grid mode with the corner editor. One thing I don't quite understand though is what you mean by bolts adding "thermo"? Tests have shown that objects attached to dark matter with rods still count towards the moving object thermo, unlike objects glued to dark matter. I don't know if this test has been done for bolts, but it seems very likely that they behave the same as rods. This would mean that LBP treats bolted objects as separate objects that it needs to calculate movement physics for, therefor they are less efficient than glueing. Whilst I have some good heads around, I've got another lesser annoyance. In that last section where sackboy goes straight down, I wanted to do the thing where you grab a circle that slowly lowers you down a winch to the bottom, and you avoid obstacles on the way. I've made some sweet flaming platforms that go back and forth (using invisible pistons) that you have to avoid as you go down. The only problem is, if you die halfway and the winch starts to return to the top, it sometimes gets caught on the moving platforms. I've made another breathtakingly artistic masterpiece to illustrate what's happening. I see this happening in Mm's Bunker level, so I suppose you can't really be blamed. Seems like a hard problem to solve. One approach could be to make all the platforms rounded and iced at the bottom, so that the winch is less likely to get caught. Another option might be to demit the winch and emit a new one. By the way, cool idea.

2010-02-28 23:36:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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It also might help to utilise the global lighting to fog up the background a fair bit and choose a colour thats similar to your thin layer background....

2010-03-01 00:39:00 Author: julesyjules Posts: 1156

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Good idea about the rounded bottoms to the platforms, and I'm comforted to hear that even MM have this problem in their levels! I'm already trying to go with more organic shapes throughout, since this is meant to be a dragon's insides. I'll make these ones a bit like upside-down kidney shapes. I've already made the tops concave because I attached a skull to each with string, so they rock back and forth as the platform moves. And there are bones hanging off the bottom. Let's just say I didn't go with "cute and silly" dragon insides ... more like "crap I just climbed inside a dragon and there are things in here he's previously eaten." And thanks for the advice about not making objects too complex. It shouldn't be a problem to keep the green sections as different pieces now that I know it's OK to glue them to the background and each other. I've been having some serious fun with lighting too, you can set some great atmosphere with those little Christmas lights. I never thought I'd have this much fun making a level, it's like being the director of a play!

2010-03-01 03:11:00 Author: munchymunchy Posts: 5

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Cool concept for a level. I like it! What I was getting at with bolts and thermo before is this. The thermo is a complex calculation of how much system resources are needed during play, but it's actually made up of a collection of sub-thermos that each fill up independently and have to do with different aspects that impact overall system performance. One of the sub-thermos has to do with moving objects, or more specifically, things that *might* move and therefore the game has to calculate physics for. Things that are attached by bolts that are not glued directly to other objects (and indirectly to something glued to dark matter) are considered in motion by the game. As such, the game must make room in memory to calculate physics for that object. While this might not become problematic for you in this level, it's bad practice that should be avoided. As you create and create, you will eventually find yourself habitually pushing to get as much out of your thermo as possible to make your levels longer and prettier. Regarding zigzags seams in your red background... there's another thing you can do. Assuming you are now gluing the background to the superstructure (dark green), you probably want to ensure that those zig zags have no gaps in them. This can be done with the corner editor, however it can still be tricky to get a tight seam, especially given that you have corners to contend with. An easy solution to fiddling with corner placement is to use a technique called "pressing". In this case, you would create your background entirely out of light red. Then, on a different layer in front of the red, shape the dark red bits (out of another material, even if only temporary) that are to go in between the light red bits. Then copy the dark red bits and paste them directly into the light red background. You've embedded one shape in another, resulting in a perfect seam.

2010-03-01 04:44:00 Author: Thegide Posts: 1465

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Thanks thegide, thermo makes sense now. I've still got a long way to go before I finish it but it'll actually go faster now that I don't have to worry about sections and bolts. There's more to the plot than just running around inside a dragon, but I'll save that for when I finish. Can't give away all my plans can I.

2010-03-01 05:14:00 Author: munchymunchy Posts: 5

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The way I ensure that two pieces of material are entirely flush is placing one material, shaping another material separately then copying it into the first material. You can then change the second material to match the first if you prefer, AFTER placing it flush. If you try and copy one material into the same material, the two shapes usually merge (if the same thickness) getting rid of your zig-zaggy border. Make sure they're different materials first. Whilst you've clearly built most of your level, this may come in useful for future sections.

2010-03-01 07:48:00 Author: Holguin86 Posts: 875

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