Archive: 18 posts

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I've been troubled lately by switches. I've built several objects that rely on sync settings for their proper function. Why is it then, that when I wire these nicely synced objects up to an on/off switch, the sync information is completely discarded? For example, two wobble bolts with sync = 0 wired to a mag switch on/off. You would think they would do identical motions? Wrong! they are completely out of sync. I've never encountered this bug before.... why is it now that I've returned after several game patches this is all buggered up? EDIT: I've made some progress in working around the issue. Seems that hooking up wires in realtime doesn't cause problems. Just don't pause or rewind until all the connections are made and the sync is preserved.

2010-02-20 04:46:00 Author: Thegide Posts: 1465

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Hmmm... I had that issue too in my last one and never did get around it. I may have to retry your technique and see if they sync correctly. I was like you going completely nuts wondering what was going on. I "almost" decided to have another piston work as my timing mechanism with directional switches, in essence create my own sync for the wobbles. I figured out another way to make what I wanted to work, but I may have another go with your trick. Thanks!

2010-02-20 05:23:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383

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I had a similar problem when I built my very first mech. My later ones all used timer wheels to control the leg movements, but the first one just used synced wobble bolts. It was fine and I could capture it and place it, but if I emitted it, the wobbles would all lose their sync. Emitters and sync don't seem to get along. I never did find a way to fix that problem: I just worked around it in future mechs with the timer wheel (which was nice 'cuz it also allowed for backwards walking).

2010-02-20 07:29:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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This may explain why sometimes pistons of mine do strange things. I can sometimes never get them to start at minimum after a tweak. They insist on pausing, then going to minimum, and ONLY THEN starting again. Very frustrating.

2010-03-04 23:15:00 Author: Nakatsu Hime Posts: 59

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If they're set to on/off, after a tweak they will pause to sync up to their setting. This is normal. If you want them to start at minimum, change the switch to directional... let them reach minimum. Pause, then set the switch to to on/off, unpause.

2010-03-04 23:18:00 Author: Thegide Posts: 1465

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This is what normally happens, yes. It was probably a combination of my hamfisted tweaks and the good old undo function.

2010-03-04 23:27:00 Author: Nakatsu Hime Posts: 59

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When I was experimenting with boss concepts the other day, I set up a pair of emitters set at Frequency 0.2s, and one of these was set to Sync 0.1s, to give a reciprocating plasma ball emission effect similar to that of the MGS super-sentry turret. I hooked these up to an on/off mag switch from the logic and they worked fine. I think the key was that I wired both emitters up in pause (eg, at exactly the same moment), thus preserving their sync settings. @Thegide: When you wire synched stuff up in realtime do you time the wiring up so everything resumes movement at the right moment? Because I've encountered this bug before and found that wiring things up in realtime never worked.

2010-03-05 00:28:00 Author: Holguin86 Posts: 875

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EDIT: as it turns out, all of this holds true IF your switch is set to OFF before you pause. Having it set to ON is what will cause the bug that thegide describes above. LOL holguin beat me to it while I was looking for that quote ON / OFF should override the sync settings. That's what they do. When the switch is off the timeline for the connectors stops, when it is on then their timeline continues. The pause you typically get with connectors starting is them resynchin with the level and this should have no bearking on the on / off switch controlled connectors. If you have several connectors you want controlled with an on / off, then you will need to get them all moving in sync, with nothing connected. Then pause, and connect up the wires. As they were all stopped (wire connected) at the same point in their timeline and all synced in, they they will remain synched with each other. Do not expect them to sync with the rest of the level. If you need them to sync with the rest of the level then you can hold them off using the on/off switch and then destroy the switch. This will normally cause a delay for resync (remember the connectors were taken out of the normal timeline of the level), and then things will return to normal. Regardless, you need to ensure they have all got past that jittery sync phase before connecting up the wire. Emitted connectors are fine too. Bear in mind that the timeline when you captured them is different to the timline when emitted, so they normally need that resync period. There is a hack for getting them to move instantly when emitted. You can fix this. Connectors that are not switch-driven will always try to synchronise, but connectors that are controlled by on/off switches do quite happily break from synch when they are switched off and back on again. So I did a couple of experiments and came up with the following: Add a mag switch to your emitted object and make sure it is set to on/off inverted. Connect it to the piston while unpaused. The piston should be happily moving back and forth. Select a magnetic switch and get ready to place it next to the magnetic key - but don't place it yet Wait until the piston has got to the exact point in it's cycle that you want it to start from and place the key. The switch will now be off. Pause Delete the mag key The switch will still be off. set the switch radius to be as small as possible and set the angle to 0. capture this object] emit it. When you emit the object, the the switch is off, but it instantly (or almost instantly, not sure) switches on. This is treated like any other switch driven connector and completely ignores the global synch. It's important to capture the object with the switch off, but make sure that it will switch on straight away as soon as it is emitted. The piston starts moving straight away. .

2010-03-05 00:37:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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As they were all stopped (wire connected) at the same point in their timeline and all synced in, they they will remain synched with each other. Do not expect them to sync with the rest of the level. If you need them to sync with the rest of the level then you can hold them off using the on/off switch and then destroy the switch. This will normally cause a delay for resync (remember the connectors were taken out of the normal timeline of the level), and then things will return to normal. I haven't had a chance to try this yet, but I suspect they would not sync if let's say each of 3 different wobble bolts were turned on at different moments. Or would they? ...that was my original issue in Space Escape II on the teeter totters. I need them in sync, but each is turned on via different switches you need to get to. I left them on and chalked so as not to move, which is a bit of a risk for breakage with then platforms withdraw. Or would destroying the switches each time make it work? No biggie.. just curious.

2010-03-05 01:27:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383

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I haven't had a chance to try this yet, but I suspect they would not sync if let's say each of 3 different wobble bolts were turned on at different moments. That's exactly it. As each is controlled by a different switch they each have their own timeline. Or would destroying the switches each time make it work? Should do, as they will each resync with the level timeline and therefore will sync with each other. Not sure what you can do about the resync period as I've never had to really deal with this. Possibly setting them up at the extremity of their movement might allow the resync to be less obvious, but that is a guess.

2010-03-05 15:12:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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@Thegide: When you wire synched stuff up in realtime do you time the wiring up so everything resumes movement at the right moment? Because I've encountered this bug before and found that wiring things up in realtime never worked. Ok, this is a bit tough to describe without a video... (hey maybe I'll do that later)... but I'll try. The problem: You build some awesome contraption that relies on synced movement of connectors for its proper function. You then want to be able to turn this contraption's movement on/off. So you hook a switch up, pause, connect the wires, unpause, and to your dismay the sync is completely destroyed. Your contraption looks like it just suffered a stroke. Rtm and compher then berate you for relying on sync-based control schemes. Why use an on/off switch at all? Can't you just manually control things with some cool logic wired with directional output? In many cases, sure. For my contraption, a quadropedal tank, I could have manually controlled wobble bolt motion by directional input. But there's this nice property about on/off control where bolts and pistons gradually slow to a halt before reversing direction. Directional switches cause instantaneous changes in direction, and sometimes, this jarring activity is enough to disrupt function (in my case, I lose significant traction). A sync bug? f you have several connectors you want controlled with an on / off, then you will need to get them all moving in sync, with nothing connected. Then pause, and connect up the wires. As they were all stopped (wire connected) at the same point in their timeline and all synced in, they they will remain synched with each other. Do not expect them to sync with the rest of the level. Well, this is what SHOULD happen, but in practice, this is not the case. The entire reason for my posting this thread in the first place was because there appears to be a bug in the game that defies this logical scenario. Worse, I believe this bug did not previously exist. When I first built my tank (2008), I wired it up in repeated instances with an on/off grab switch no problem, working in and out of pause mode, doing nothing special in the process. Recently, I tried to swap that grab switch for something mag-based and ran into sync problems even though it was a simple switch replacement, done in pause mode. Then I started noticing this problem with other sync-based contraptions I had built. What seems to be happening is that pause mode seems to be fragmenting timelines for different connectors on the same switch. Why pause mode, I have no idea. But if you place a fresh on/off switch and wire the connectors, pausing at any point in the process, sync goes haywire. Thegide's solution: Posted earlier in this thread, this will ensure that sync settings are preserved among things connected with a single on/off switch. 1. Ensure your contraption is moving in sync (to level timeline). 2. Exit pause mode if you are paused 3. Place your on/off switch and without pausing, wire all of your connections. This can be tricky when your connectors are moving, and the natural tendency is to pause, but you musn't. @Holguin: I'm not sure about emitters... they might be immune to this problem. My experiences deal with wobble bolts and pistons, primarily. Contrary to Rtm's statement, the time at which the connections are wired is not relevant. I don't time the placing of my wires in realtime. You could connect them in any order, at random time points and as long as you don't pause between the placing of the first and last wires, you will get proper sync. Remember, the timeline is based on the switch, not the connector - so even though connection placement is asynchronous, the system will resync itself. I'll double check but I'm fairly certain it also doesn't matter if your on/off switch is set to ON or OFF during this procedure - however, it's a good idea to invert it (ON) while placing connections so you can ensure that sync is being preserved during the process. You'll know this is the case because your connections will appear to remain synced with the level and there will no discernable different in their movement pattern. Even pausing between connections placed in realtime is enough to FUBAR the whole thing. I don't fully understand why this solution works, but I've tested it with 100% success on multiple contraptions.

2010-03-05 16:40:00 Author: Thegide Posts: 1465

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After reading this, I think I've figured out why my first mech wasn't emittable. Doesn't matter, 'cuz it was crap, but it's nice to know. I probably didn't have them all connected to the switch at the same time. I overcame this by adjusting the sync setting of each bolt until it worked. That's all well and good until you capture and emit it, at which time the bolts will all be on the same timeline and the sync adjustments I made to compensate, are now having the opposite effect because the bolts have all changed timing. It must be a quirk specific to emitters, though, because I could capture it and place it in a level without problems.

2010-03-05 18:17:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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I'll double check but I'm fairly certain it also doesn't matter if your on/off switch is set to ON or OFF during this procedure OK, the fact that you have the switch ON in play mode makes all the difference. It's never gonna work otherwise, because you will be stopping the connectors at different times in their movement! You should probably add that to the main part of your solution. Did you also have the switch ON when connecting in pause mode? Because doing that, I can reproduce the issue? If connecting in pause, have the switch OFF, if connecting in play, have the switch ON. Either way it preserves sync. I can see how connecting with the switch set to ON in pause mode makes no sense and clearly is a bug, but connecting it in pause more with the switch set to OFF is a far simpler method than chasing connectors around the screen So, my solution: Let the connectors run till they are synced Ensure your on / off switch is set to off pause connect the wires Think that's simpler to do.

2010-03-05 19:08:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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The other option which might work is to use a separate off-screen synchronization wheel to do all the timings - kinda like one of oLMCo's music boxes, only the mag switches control the directions of the bolts and pistons via some set-reset or toggle switches. If it's for some sort of walker, you might be able to have it walking backwards by reversing the direction of the wheel. In some cases this is the only way to achieve certain timings, as the sync settings on connectors only give a certain amount of flexibility, e.g. you can't have different pause times at each end of the cycle. I've been trying to put together an example, but I don't seem to be able to build a walker to save my life.

2010-03-05 19:55:00 Author: Aya042 Posts: 2870

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OK, the fact that you have the switch ON in play mode makes all the difference. It's never gonna work otherwise, because you will be stopping the connectors at different times in their movement! You should probably add that to the main part of your solution. Did you also have the switch ON when connecting in pause mode? Because doing that, I can reproduce the issue? Ok, I went back and tested more myself. Seems I'm now getting the same results as you report. ON in pause and OFF in play both are problematic. Now you have me questioning my own sanity, because I could have sworn that when I was having problems in the first place, I was in paused mode, connecting everything at once with the switch OFF. At any rate I can't seem to reproduce my original observation... so perhaps I am crazy and the switch was ON in pause mode.

2010-03-06 01:00:00 Author: Thegide Posts: 1465

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At any rate I can't seem to reproduce my original observation... so perhaps I am crazy and the switch was ON in pause mode. Most likely this is the case. It's easilly done. It could well explain why you didn't notice this bug months ago, or maybe it was never there before, who knows. At least it is more predictable, even if it doesn't make sense

2010-03-06 01:26:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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I'm not sure about emitters... they might be immune to this problem. My experiences deal with wobble bolts and pistons, primarily. Playing with some (unrelated) emitter sync experiments earlier so I thought Id' give this a quick test. Seems to be the asme issue with emitters. If you hook up the on/off switch, set to be on, in pause mode you knacker the sync settings. Play mode with the switch on or pause mode with the switch off still works though.

2010-03-11 01:41:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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This is why I rarely encounter this bug, because when synching stuff up I always pause (because it just made sense to me that if you want things to continue to move together they should all be connected to the switch at once). And I also encountered the inverted switch bug whereby inverted switches sometimes activate when sackboy spawns at the entrance gate ... so since then I've always ensured any switch I connect up is off first, and only inverted in special circumstances. And because I only unpause to test the physics and immediately rewind after testing, I've never encountered the problem - as, like rtm said, my switch is off and I'm in pause. With your mech, Thegide, your grab switch is off when sackboy isn't grabbing, I think, so build in pause as much as possible and attach the switch to the connectors in pause mode. Then, unpause to test then immediately rewind, using rewind placeholders if necessary. It's a slow method of working, but ensures your sync remains intact.

2010-03-12 16:23:00 Author: Holguin86 Posts: 875

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