Archive: 32 posts

---

And sorry if there is already a thread about this, I didn't see one after searching quite a bit. Visible logic. Do you like it or does it detract from the atmosphere? Personally, I love seeing logic out in the open and I'm unsure if I should use that in my next level. Thoughts?

2010-02-15 22:50:00 Author: iGotFancyPants Posts: 1355

---

I think logic is best hidden. The only reason MM show there logic is so newbies can learn a bit of logic from it. But i think logic looks ugly...

2010-02-15 22:58:00 Author: Doopz Posts: 5592

---

I think it can break the forth wall (unless you can really make a good case for using it) In my level Happy Buddy Battle Show, underneath the giant sheet of thin dark matter is a gigantic logic board (some of it is just plain scary!). However, on the outside, you're on a sadistic Japanese game show. Thematically speaking, I don't think there would be a way to explain that much logic through the theme, or while consistent to the theme. Therefore, I make my logic transparent to the player. Another example, one external to LBP, is film. In fight scenes, wires will be editted out for the sake of maintaining immersion. When something that doesn't fit into the theme of a film rears its ugly head, it sticks out stronger than anything else. Alternatively, it's not impossible the one could purposely have the logic visible in a level. However, you must ask yourself "how will this affect my theme?". Additionally, it is definitely true that in some cases, it doesn't matter if it affects the theme or not. just my two cents

2010-02-15 23:11:00 Author: TheLawnStink Posts: 98

---

Aye. Have much of the logic visible in my latest level and I didn't do these visible logic contests without a reason. Check out Mnniska's Switches Everywhere (or something like that)

2010-02-15 23:11:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193

---

If integrated well into your visuals then yes. If you're just plonking down some stock logic for the sake of it then no. Unless it's TechnoLegs... He was special.

2010-02-15 23:15:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

---

I would only have logic visible when necessary, such as in a tutorial or with a experimental theme. The level I'm making for Outlaw Flyers actually has one part of the level under construction, so logic will probably be visible then.

2010-02-15 23:17:00 Author: Outlaw-Jack Posts: 5757

---

I actually think it depends on the context of the level. If it's supposed to be a natural-looking level (any story mode level before The Metropolis is a good example), then hide your logics. But if it's supposed to be cold and mechanistic (the fight against The Collector is a great example), if you put the logic in a place where it makes sense in context, such as inside a robot body or along the walls of a machine, by all means, have your logic visible. But in any case, if you want your logic visible, make it blend in with the level. Logic as part of a machine can give it a cool, science-y feel without motor bolts and thermo-nomming gears. On the other hand, simple logic gates surrounded by a wall of Dark Matter... yeah, keep that away from the visible part of the level, OK? But one exception to the "if the logic doesn't blend in, keep it out of sight" rule is the "developer's room" area I've seen in a few levels. A little area, out of the way or unlocked by a hidden mechanism, where you can show off to the players how great you are at logic mechanisms. This could even overlap with the robot-body thing mentioned earlier. Anyone could just make a logic array and hide it offscreen (and in the case of small robots, it may be unavoidable). It takes a true master to cram a dozen switches and stuff into an object that Sackboy has to actually attack. Like I said, the fight with The Collector is a great example of how visible logic adds to the feel of a level. But unless it has some purpose of being visible, keep your logic offscreen. tl;dr: If the logic is part of the aesthetics and makes sense to be in the area, make it visible. If it looks out of place, hide it.

2010-02-15 23:21:00 Author: KimuraOkagawa Posts: 19

---

It depends on the level, and the logic involved. If you can make something look very clean, and nice, and possibly even ADD to the level with the logic, go ahead. (for examples, see the Logic Pack, or levels by SLS10). However, if your logic is a bit messy, convoluted, or distracting, you might want to give it a second thought. But again, its best to be consistant in your level. If you have a door that works via a key switch, and this is the ONLY visible key switch in the level, it makes it look a bit lazy, like the creator didn't want to spend the effort to design something that would indicate that the key goes in that spot. However, if all the key switches were visible, it would seem an acceptable continuation of the level. RTM223's level, "Subterranean Setbacks" is probably one of the most logic heavy levels out there, but you shouldn't be able to see any of it among the very cool scenery and effects. SLS10 makes a point of including a majority of visible logic in his levels, and sometimes seeing the switches work together can be really cool. Both provide a fun experience, its all in what appeals to you.

2010-02-16 03:06:00 Author: Burnvictim42 Posts: 3322

---

Sometimes i think logic is nice to have showing. If it is inside the environment and has no darkmatter showing it can have a nice efect.

2010-02-16 08:45:00 Author: bmw_oss Posts: 10

---

It depends on the logic you are using. I don't like seeing Delays or Set resets, However if there is a Permanent Switch With a drop down i think that would work

2010-02-16 08:48:00 Author: Kern Posts: 5078

---

I suggest to try Keldur's dojo somehing level. In my humble opinion it's the best user level with visible logics

2010-02-16 09:54:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112

---

NAY!!!

2010-02-16 10:52:00 Author: Ungreth Posts: 2130

---

I liked it in Keldur's "Lafarge's Request" and the like...and in Twin Towers where manipulation and attention to color coded logic is the theme. There are often times where I would like to show the logic behind everything, but fitting them into set pieces properly and without distracting from the theme is none too possible sometimes. Often times, cramming logic boards into small areas where the action occurs will result in total failure of other invisible logic due to conflicting radi etc Maybe putting logic way in the 50th layer would be a neat idea heh. Sometimes, the solution to a puzzle is made clear by observation of onscreen logic. The perm switches in Voltiare's H.A.T.E., at the time, was very cool to see, since it was very new to the creator world, and the cinematic sweep to their unlocking as doors, was well done. Honestly though, depending on the theme, the mere presence of a big, red shiny button is an appearance that conflicts with immersion... an example would be the big red press button in Lost Tomb of Anubis (one of my very favorite levels). A well concealed, and stickered pressure plate would have been more tasteful, or the idea of moving statues onto plates with invisible logic to coincide so as to never break the illusion. But hey, 2 and 3 way switches are gameplay, and cannot be shied away from, no matter how hard they are to disguise into the environment. However, there are people who've done great jobs at making their own player-manipulated 2/3 way switches using invisible logic... ie: sackboy's inferno episode 3 by sighwhatever, or temple of the ancients by tame turtle. Also... ya know, the logic pack seems like a good time to have visible logic just saying. Edit: P.S. It's also good to keep in mind, that even though we're not MM and most of us here know about as much as we can, there's always new ideas coming out along with plenty of logic ideas that were never shown in any story levels, and when newer players pop into your level bursting at the seems with a want to be creative, seeing the logic behind someone's odd contraptions or carefully crafted sequencing in a neat and compact manner while it's happening might be really inspiring and educational to them. I think this is the spirit of sharing in the game, and in this community, that has gotten us all on equal terms as creators even though we had to completely abandon the use of copyable levels and community prizes.

2010-02-16 14:01:00 Author: Unknown User

---

NAY!!! Agreed. bxvfgcv

2010-02-16 14:06:00 Author: Doopz Posts: 5592

---

nay @ nay :/ I also think VR material levels, are a prime opportunity to use some visible logic, as color coded mag switches blend in really well thematically with the techno, color-coded look. hmmm... I think Teebonesey and rtm should go into cocreate and make a conceptual, story driven level where there's a war between magnetic keys and logic mechanics, and a natural, organic world that doesn't want to be taken over by machines. Sounds like a dream level to me... Jon Martin would be a very cool person to bring along for the writing and out-there fantasy of it. It would be like a super artsy and uber mechanical take on Eddy Mitter. I wants it.... my precioussssss.

2010-02-16 14:18:00 Author: Unknown User

---

...OR! You could come back to us and make it yourself? Pretty Please?

2010-02-16 14:26:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

---

Depends on how the logic "looks" Like I would hide a randomizer, but not a perma switch, or a AND switch.

2010-02-16 14:27:00 Author: IheartLBP9999 Posts: 40

---

I think you just need to play a level by hallm3 or Lordmagicpants. Some of the visible logic adds a new angle to the level. While playing some fun sections you also get to see how it's done. So I say YAY!!!! But it has be done to suit your level visually.

2010-02-16 14:36:00 Author: KQuinn94Z Posts: 1758

---

...OR! You could come back to us and make it yourself? Pretty Please? Give me a couple months. I technically will have the money for a slim PS3 tomorrow, but then I'll leave myself with only $50 for the rest of the month lol hmmm but if I have LBP again, I won't need to leave the house for at least a month. Perhaps $50 is reasonable. ...I also want to get a router though, so I can be online on LBP 24/7 and still let others use the laptop.

2010-02-16 14:38:00 Author: Unknown User

---

Hey, that's all you need! If I remember correctly, you sold LBP as well, correct? Too bad... But at least you should be able to copy all your old levels. /Waits patiently for Ninja to return...

2010-02-16 14:40:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

---

I think Teebonesey and rtm should go into cocreate Oh my god can you imagine??? That sounds like probably the worst OC pairing I can think of... Seriously. edit: Ohhh, ninja's coming back

2010-02-16 14:46:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

---

ha, but the extreme opposites could result in the coolest thing to ever happen, rtm. I can see that two distinct tastes from two different chefs in one kitchen might not work well though... and with JonMartin in the mix, things would be totally chaotic, and you'd just end up making hilarious contraptions instead of building the level. If I remember correctly, you sold LBP as well, correct? Too bad... But at least you should be able to copy all your old levels. heh, yes, and I didn't even get money for it, out of all the stuff I sold and got ripped off for. I was standing there in the pawn shop deleting and reformatting everything on it before I got the money, and she handed back a stack of games to me that they didn't want and LBP was one of them. I later realized when I was already halfway back to Massachusetts that the case for LBP was empty, and that I'd left it in the PS3 (since it would never come out of the PS3 heh) without realizing it, and they got it for free on accident. I still have the case for LBP at least haha it shall henceforth become a family heirloom, like Christopher Walken's watch in Pulp Fiction. First I'm gonna have to do all the tutorials again, get parties for the story mode, and 100% everything, including MGS and PotC ugh, but it will be fun. Then I will get right back into create, and probably the first thing I'll do is see what the hell is wrong with False Idols III that I've heard about, and try adding water to False Idols 0... then get to work on some of my ideas. "I'm gonna need alot of mountain dew"

2010-02-16 15:11:00 Author: Unknown User

---

sometimes you can make it go with the level. but most of the time its noobs who actually try to make it more complicated than it needs to be to show off

2010-02-16 15:41:00 Author: Unreal_Styrofoam Posts: 99

---

ha, but the extreme opposites could result in the coolest thing to ever happen, rtm. I can see that two distinct tastes from two different chefs in one kitchen might not work well though... It's the similarities between us I'm concerned about, not the differences. The desire to push any project far beyond the bounds of what is reasonably achievable, then stubbornly refusing to let the system beat us, the painfully long development cycle coupled with a tendency to burn out..... These are the characteristics that might be somewhat problematic I still have the case for LBP at least haha it shall henceforth become a family heirloom, like Christopher Walken's watch in Pulp Fiction Let's hope you never have to stash it in the same way eh?

2010-02-16 16:00:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

---

It depends on the level and more important, I think it all comes down to the creator control on their level. If the creator requires that logic is visible to increase the level of difficulty of a puzzle or using logic as a "hint" so clear that it should be visible. But if it is visible as an "accident" or neglect of the creator, then it looks ugly.

2010-02-16 18:08:00 Author: Duckywolf Posts: 198

---

Lesson 1, for all the people of LBPC. The story of the dumb lion, as ancient chronicles told... A man with a violin runs through the desert and two lions runs after him; when the man realizes that the lions are too near and he's practically dead, he stops and starts to play a beautiful tune with his violin. The two lions stop, sit down and start to listen to the wonderful music. Then a third lion approaches very slowly and eats the musician. "Oh crap!" says one of the two listening lions "The deaf lion has arrived, and the show is over" Well guys, when you use short sentence like NAY and Ninja is around the forum, you are like the deaf lion. Sorry but I had to say. An addiction to the theme of the thread, Miglioshin built in Cave Escape and Legendary Hero some switches just to avoid the bland and inappropriate look of the 2 way to make everything more immersive, so it can be another good idea

2010-02-16 20:09:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112

---

It can look good but I found some logic Mm was hiding so even they don't show all there logic

2010-02-17 00:33:00 Author: FocusRSdude Posts: 145

---

Mmm, some valid statements were made. I personally like being able to see logic, depending on the look the creator is trying to achieve. If they are going for something realistic, then hide it. If it's something with a Mm style, why not show it? I personally love the style Mm dished out for us, and would love to see more of it.

2010-02-17 00:57:00 Author: iGotFancyPants Posts: 1355

---

I'm not an expert like comphermc, but i'd hide logic. UNLESS the theme is to show off your logic.

2010-02-18 03:26:00 Author: JspOt Posts: 3607

---

I think what Ninja touched upon about even buttons and levers pulling you out of the level is definitely note worthy and is along the same lines. Personally, I don't mind buttons, checkpoints, levers or whatever no matter where they are. They're like the foundations of LBP to me, the things that should always be the same in levels. Although that is partly done to the type of levels that I create, I'm sure someone who creator who is all about immersion and atmosphere would disagree. There's more I wanted to say but I've got to go, you get my point anyway!

2010-02-18 03:43:00 Author: jackofcourse Posts: 1494

---

I like to have the best of both worlds. In my personal opinion it would be best to hide the logic throughout the level while the player is progressing through but then at the end or somewhere have a mouth or camera angle object show the player what all the logic looks like. On the other hand though logic can look quite good in some levels depending on the theme. For example, a mechanically themed level would have no problem pulling off visable logic. It could also work if the logic was actually intergrated into the level as objects the sackboy/girl move around.

2010-02-18 06:42:00 Author: SR20DETDOG Posts: 2431

---

Yay: -When you are trying to achieve a MM inspired level. -When visible logic helps simplify puzzles for players. Nay: -When you want the player to be immersed in your level. -When it becomes too distracting. Those would be my guidelines. Everything else inbetween is personal preference really.

2010-02-18 23:43:00 Author: midnight_heist Posts: 2513

Posts: 1077139    Threads: 69970    Members: 9661    Archive-Date: 2019-01-19

Aus dem Archiv wurden alle persönlichen Daten wie Name, Anschrift, Email etc. - aber auch sämtliche Inhalte wie z.B. persönliche Nachrichten - entfernt.
Die Nutzung dieser Webseite erfolgt ohne Speicherung personenbezogener Daten. Es werden keinerlei Cookies, Logs, 3rd-Party-Plugins etc. verwendet.