Archive: 36 posts

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I need help with knowing something. My level series (https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=21652-Sackies-Inferno-Very-Early-Limbo-Screenshots-Up!) is set in Hell and I was wondering if any 'satanic' imagery would be appropriate in a LBP level. I'm talking about Pentagrams, Inverted Crosses, etc. Would these be a moddable offense? I made a great looking Pentagram made out of the 'lava' material but I'm wondering if I should use it.

2010-02-10 14:06:00 Author: Beed28 Posts: 200

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That's an interesting question. It's never easy to judge how some people on LBP will react to certain things. For instance, a few levels have been moderated for including horror or hellish references, but on the other hand I've had a level with dismembered doll parts covered in blood for 9 months and it's still up there! Of course, a lot of people may not know what a Pentagram actually is, and if they DO know, they might not care. It seems it's luck of the draw.

2010-02-10 15:48:00 Author: MrsSpookyBuz Posts: 1492

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Don't think it would be in conflict with any rules. People may or may not be offended, but then if you avoided everything people might find offending you can probably stop creating.

2010-02-10 15:53:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193

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I'm pretty sure that something is only considered offensive to other people's faith if it involves Islam, which is apparently deserving of a level of respect that other religions aren't entitled to. Whatever you do, if you value your life, do not include any artistic depictions of the prophet Mohammad. Most other religions are fair game though. In fact, you could probably feature images of Jesus smoking crack in a brothel and nobody would raise an eyebrow.

2010-02-10 16:03:00 Author: Ungreth Posts: 2130

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i wouldn't be offended personally. if it's a good level and it needs those things, go for it! but if you could, cut them out just to be on the safe side.

2010-02-10 16:09:00 Author: trip090 Posts: 1562

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but if you could, cut them out just to be on the safe side. No, that's the wrong approach. You can always change it once it gets moderated, but until that happens try to realize the full potential of a level. You don't overcome a system by bowing down to it.

2010-02-10 16:13:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193

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Hmm, I recall Sam on LBW coming with with some news on moderating at the start of the year. He was supposed to follow up with more explanation/examples, but I haven't heard anything since. It might help solve the hell question. Has anyone heard anything?

2010-02-10 16:24:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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Well it's Pegi standards now and they don't mention religion at all as far as I can see (http://www.pegi.info/en/index/id/33/). Therefor it should be fine, peoples on standards aside.

2010-02-10 16:29:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193

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In fact, you could probably feature images of Jesus smoking crack in a brothel and nobody would raise an eyebrow. hahahahaha

2010-02-10 16:39:00 Author: javi haguse Posts: 744

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Actually, drug use is PEGI16.

2010-02-10 16:42:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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You can check out the Hells Angels levels by Poms. Plenty of satanic imagery in there, but nothing truly offensive. I think as long as it's done tastefully and in context you shouldn't have a problem. I'd love to make some sort of brutal heavy metal level with similar themes, but until they release some metal in the music tracks I think I'm going to pass.

2010-02-10 17:52:00 Author: Thegide Posts: 1465

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I''ll try my luck with the Pentagrams. Right now, I have one inserted into the 'background' of King Minos's boss room. Currently, although he doesn't have any attacks right now, I have a button set up to test his death sequence, which dissolves practically everything in the room (King Minos himself, the pentagram, the fiery background, and even setting the colour of the grayish backcolour to black) leaving only the Infinite Life Checkpoint and the ground remaining. Oh yes, and a convenient "blinking" blue VR arrow pointing right. Indicating that the player can proceed and collect the Circle's "Cleared Sticker" and the scoreboard.

2010-02-10 18:38:00 Author: Beed28 Posts: 200

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I would good grief a level for featuring pentagrams or any other satanic imagery. I'd good grief a level for using any religious theme in anything other than a respectful manner (I shouldn't have to say it, but that includes Islam). I'd good grief a level for making homosexual references (for OR against) or really any sexual references at all beyond the absolute mildest. I might or might not good grief a level set in hell, depending on how it was handled (just fire and some scary monster things wouldn't be a big deal, but if the level had a really evil feel to it, then I'd report it). Bottom line: this is a game meant for ages 7 and up. There is absolutely no place in such a game for satanic imagery.

2010-02-10 20:17:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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I would good grief a level for featuring pentagrams or any other satanic imagery. I'd good grief a level for using any religious theme in anything other than a respectful manner (I shouldn't have to say it, but that includes Islam). Bottom line: this is a game meant for ages 7 and up. There is absolutely no place in such a game for satanic imagery. I'll point you the First Amendment of the Constitution (I'm sure our European buddies have something similar). Freedom of religion, and not only that, but of press. He is legally protected while using any religious motifs (Yes. Satanism is a religion, just like Christianity and Islam. Shocking? ), as long as they're appropriate. And who's to say whether a pentagram is appropriate or not for the younger kiddies? Certainly not you. Just because it belongs to a religion with certain ideals? How about I say the cross is innapropiate for the youngsters because they promote the stoning of homosexuals in the BIble? It's the same thing. And besides, we have Sack Out Of Hell, LilleBigDead Space, and not to mention that our little sack buddy constantly gets blown up by bombs. I'd say go for it. If you get moderated, well shame on them, but certainly worth trying. I'd put my money on it not being moderated.

2010-02-10 20:34:00 Author: Astrosimi Posts: 2046

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Oh, so the pentagram is just a satanic, and evil symbol now? I must have missed that memo Hmmmm, sehven distinctly has a point here and it leads onto a different point of interest - what is moderatable lies soley in the hands of whoever sees your level. It's not down to what is technically inappropriate, it comes down to what is deemed inappropriate by a number of individuals. And if enough individuals see your level and deem it inappropriate, off to the sin bin you go. I'm not saying don't do it, but just set yourself up for the possibility of moderation if you do. @astrosimi: the first amendment protects you practising your religious beliefs. It does not protect you from putting whatever content you like on a privately owned server. In fact, If I'm not mistaken, doesn't the first amendment basically just cover government making laws restricting religious practice etc? Regardless, in the same way as someone does not have the right to come in your house and preach to you, just because they believe something, you don't have free rein over a privately owned property.

2010-02-10 21:00:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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@astrosimi: the first amendment protects you practising your religious beliefs. It does not protect you from putting whatever content you like on a privately owned server. In fact, If I'm not mistaken, doesn't the first amendment basically just cover government making laws restricting religious practice etc? Regardless, in the same way as someone does not have the right to come in your house and preach to you, just because they believe something, you don't have free rein over a privately owned property. I must admit I did overlook that. Touche to you, sir, and I retract my argument. Most of it, at least.

2010-02-10 21:18:00 Author: Astrosimi Posts: 2046

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Oh, so the pentagram is just a satanic, and evil symbol now? I must have missed that memo What else is it used for? (no sarcasm/accusation implied: I'm genuinely asking out of ignorance). The only use I know of for pentagrams is satanism. I retract my argument. Most of it, at least. Too bad. I was gonna' have fun with that first amendment thing. It seems to me that most people don't really understand it. A somewhat off topic and extreme example, is that you have the right of free speech to say the word fire if you like, but if you go into a crowded theatre and yell "FIRE!" at the top of your lungs, you're going to get arrested. Again, that's an extreme example: it does sometimes get pretty fuzzy where one person's rights end and another's begin. Honestly, I would avoid using any religious symbols, whether they're considered good or bad (considered by the majority or whatever: I'm sure there's people out there who will debate the goodness/rightness/wrongness of any religion). That's partly because I don't think video games are really an especially reverent medium for portraying things considered sacred by those who believe in them. So I would think of a cross as inappropriate (but I wouldn't good grief it, because I realize that my particular thinking on the subject is hardly universal) because I consider putting it in a video game to be disrespectful. As far as who decides what's appropriate to expose children to, no it's not my right to decide and to enforce my decision on others. It is my right, however, to use my freedom of speech to speak out against what I consider wrong and it's my duty to do so. Too many people are afraid of standing up for what's right because they've been told by society that they have to avoid offending people. It's important to be as polite and understanding as possible, but not to the extent of compromising your principles. There was a similar discussion over on the lbw forums on the appropriateness of using a swastika in a level where you fight nazis. I initially came out in support of using it. Nazis were portrayed as the bad guys, so it's not like the level was promoting their ideals or anything. The point was raised that some people would be offended or otherwise bothered by it, and that it was simply insensitive to disregard those people (especially in an E rated game: if you have sensitive ideals and you buy M or AO rated games, then you have nobody to blame but yourself if you get offended). If for no other reason than politeness, such things should be avoided. I found that I agreed with that point so I changed my position on the subject and I agree that putting swastikas in levels in inappropriate.

2010-02-10 22:15:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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As far as who decides what's appropriate to expose children to, no it's not my right to decide and to enforce my decision on others. It is my right, however, to use my freedom of speech to speak out against what I consider wrong and it's my duty to do so. Too many people are afraid of standing up for what's right because they've been told by society that they have to avoid offending people. It's important to be as polite and understanding as possible, but not to the extent of compromising your principles. Well, I could get into debating the reasoning behind your thinking, but I guess you're right after all. Freedom of speech. Touche indeed.

2010-02-10 22:19:00 Author: Astrosimi Posts: 2046

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Over here in the Netherlands it's the same thing: people, especially a certain politician, hiding behind freedom of speech, as if that overrules everything. Good news is, the guy's on trial for it now. I think the pentagram is a pagan symbol that the catholic church demonized to make people let go of their old religion. But if you're really interested, check a wiki or something. Edit: Hehe, got there first!

2010-02-10 22:25:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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What else is it used for? (no sarcasm/accusation implied: I'm genuinely asking out of ignorance). The only use I know of for pentagrams is satanism. Wikipedia to the rescue Christianity The pentagram is used as a Christian symbol for the five senses, and if the letters S, A, L, V, and S are inscribed in the points, it can be taken as a symbol of health (from Latin salus). Mormonism The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has used pentagrams and five-pointed stars in Temple architecture, Judaism The pentagram was the official seal of the city of Jerusalem for a time. Neopaganism Many Neopagans, especially Wiccans, use the pentagram as a symbol of faith similar to the Christian cross or the Jewish Star of David. The outer circle of the circumscribed pentagram is sometimes interpreted as binding the elements together or bringing them into harmony with each other. The Neopagan pentagram is generally displayed with one point up, partly because of the "inverted" goat's head pentagram's association with Satanism; however, within traditional forms of Wicca a pentagram with two points up is associated with the Second Degree Initiation and in this context has no relation to Satanism Satanism Satanists use a pentagram with two points up, often inscribed in a double circle, with the head of a goat inside the pentagram. This is referred to as the Sigil of Baphomet. Taoism Representation of the Chinese five elements (Wǔ X?ng) Taoism conceived of a five element system which governed the natural world which they called the Wu Xing(Chinese:五行/Wǔ X?ng). Unlike the Greek system of four elements being Earth, Air, Fire, and Water, the Chinese system involved Fire(火/huǒ, Earth(土/tǔ, Metal(金/jīn), Water(水/shuǐ, and Wood(木/m?). This five element system was normally depicted as a pentagram(Chinese:五星/Wǔ Xīng) ringed by a circle. The circle was used to describe the generative cycle where wood feeds fire, fire creates earth (ash), earth bears metal, metal carries water, and water nourishes wood. The pentagram describes the destructive or overcoming system where Wood parts Earth, Earth absorbs Water, Water quenches Fire, Fire melts Metal, Metal chops Wood, or the alternative destructive system: Wood absorbs Water, Water rusts Metal, Metal breaks up Earth, Earth smothers Fire, Fire burns Wood. This system informs traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) even today. As the Wu Xing is of great antiquity and the silk road had been open to Europe since before the Roman Empire it is quite likely that this medical system was imported to Europe as a misunderstood and exotic practice involving spirits (Shen). Flags While a solid five-pointed star is found on many flags, the pentagram is relatively rare. It appears on two national flags, those of Ethiopia and Morocco and in some coats of arms. According to Ivan Sache, on the Moroccan flags, the pentagram represents the link between God and the nation.[25] It is also possible that both flags use the pentagram as a symbol of King Solomon (see Seal of Solomon), the archetypal wise king of Jewish, Christian and Muslim lore. In short; as other symbols the pentagram has a million different meanings.

2010-02-10 22:25:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193

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Ouch, I'm starting to get second thoughts about this! :eek: If that is the case, then is there another appropriate symbol that represents Hell? Or would you suggest a custom symbol?

2010-02-10 22:41:00 Author: Beed28 Posts: 200

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Satanism Satanists use a pentagram with two points up, often inscribed in a double circle, with the head of a goat inside the pentagram. This is referred to as the Sigil of Baphomet. I thought this was the one we were talking about. Generally when one uses the term "pentagram" instead of "star" or "five point star" they're referring to the upside down (two points up) circled one used in satanism or paganism. At least, that's the way I've always understood the term. I'm pretty sure the TC meant a circled upside down five point star when he mentioned using it in a hell-themed level.

2010-02-10 22:42:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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Im not sure, it is an E game..

2010-02-11 00:12:00 Author: Emogotsaone Posts: 1030

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The upside-down pentagram is certainly the more familiar symbol for witchcraft, the occult, "the devil", etc... If you want to do something a bit more obscure and has a less fuzzy meaning, try the Sigil of Lucifer: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Sigil_of_Lucifer.svg/87px-Sigil_of_Lucifer.svg.png The symbol isn't that old, nor does it have much particular history - as far as I can tell in my two seconds of research, it dates back to a fake magic book made in the 1700s in Rome. But it's certainly more obscure than a pentagram if you're keeping your options open for hellacious symbols. Otherwise, I'd just have fun making Hell. It's been imagined so, so many different ways. My advice is to not hold back - Hell really shouldn't be too much a touchy spot, it's the setting of many a classic work of literature, it has been illustrated and envisioned in everything from children's cartoons to classical paintings to popular comic books, and in horror movies and comedies alike. I really don't think you need to worry too much about touching a nerve, but the important point made earlier is that what matters isn't the taste on display in the level but rather the sensibilities of a small handful of gamers. In which case, you're not going to win them all. So knock it out of the park I say, don't even worry about offending, and you'll probably come out okay. Probably.

2010-02-12 10:22:00 Author: Teebonesy Posts: 1937

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Thanks! It was quite tricky and difficult to make the Sigil of Lucifer, but I managed it in about an hour. I have now swapped the Pentagram in King Minos' room with it. Speaking of King Minos, I have now figured out a method of attacking him. You have a "cannon" like weapon which you can drag back and forth and then you grab it over and over, it shoots cannonballs. King Minos takes damage when these cannonballs hit his face. Although, he has "invincibility frames" for a second after each hit due to the method I used.

2010-02-12 12:40:00 Author: Beed28 Posts: 200

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I''ll try my luck with the Pentagrams. Right now, I have one inserted into the 'background' of King Minos's boss room. Currently, although he doesn't have any attacks right now, I have a button set up to test his death sequence, which dissolves practically everything in the room (King Minos himself, the pentagram, the fiery background, and even setting the colour of the grayish backcolour to black) leaving only the Infinite Life Checkpoint and the ground remaining. Oh yes, and a convenient "blinking" blue VR arrow pointing right. Indicating that the player can proceed and collect the Circle's "Cleared Sticker" and the scoreboard. Just remember that the pentagram only represents Satanism when positioned in an inverted form, ie: pointing downwards like this...http://image.spreadshirt.com/image-server/image/design/10098184/type/png/width/130/height/130 If you place it pointing upwards, it actually becomes a Christian symbol.

2010-02-12 13:38:00 Author: Ungreth Posts: 2130

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I think it is okey to have religious symbols if you are portraying a theme. Though not if you want to spread some kind of message. BTW: And if you use a sixpointed star in a circle it becomes an epic fail (warning you might be offended.) http://www.epicfail.com/2009/06/23/satanic-pentagram-fail/

2010-02-12 15:08:00 Author: Tamland Posts: 106

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If you say, Destroyed all the other symbols then put the pentagram ruling all its bad

2010-02-12 18:19:00 Author: Kern Posts: 5078

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Most descriptions of hell around the world make it out to be a cold, harsh, foggy marsh delineated or fed by a number of rivers. This, as opposed to the fields of paradise circumscribed or fed by a number of rivers. What else is it used for? (no sarcasm/accusation implied: I'm genuinely asking out of ignorance). The only use I know of for pentagrams is satanism. The pentagram is one of the cornerstones of philosophy and mathematics. It was discovered, if that's the right word, by Pythagoras. It might be used as a diagram to show how the various constituent elements of the world relate and are borne of each other (see Plato's Timaeus), the human body (there might be some good illustrations of this in one of Fludd's works), the instruments of art, all terrestrial things. The hexagram, as opposed to the pentagram, is usually used to depict the correspondence between celestial things. I thought this was the one we were talking about. Generally when one uses the term "pentagram" instead of "star" or "five point star" they're referring to the upside down (two points up) circled one used in satanism or paganism. At least, that's the way I've always understood the term. Sometimes you can tell which school of thought someone comes from by how they spell or use words like that. Whether they use pentagram or pantacle, magic or magick, kabbalah or qabalah...

2010-02-13 16:25:00 Author: Ayneh Posts: 2454

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Most descriptions of hell around the world make it out to be a cold, harsh, foggy marsh delineated or fed by a number of rivers. This, as opposed to the fields of paradise circumscribed or fed by a number of rivers. I've always seen hell as a fiery place, not a cold marsh, but maybe it's different in Europe.

2010-02-13 17:44:00 Author: thekevinexpress Posts: 256

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I've always seen Hell as a fiery, molten place. And besides, I've already ditched the Pentagram in favor for the Sigil of Lucifer, as I already said.

2010-02-13 20:52:00 Author: Beed28 Posts: 200

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Don't worry too much, Beed. As you can see from this thread, people get quite heated when you talk about something like Hell. Each to their own I suppose. There are plenty of symbolism and myths about Hell and Satan - most come from after he was supposedly cast out of heaven. Although I'm still waiting for the Jehovah's to revisit my house and explain why the world hasn't ended yet, even though I wasn't in any of the 22 tribes. Take it all with a pinch of salt - and have FUN.

2010-02-13 21:04:00 Author: MrsSpookyBuz Posts: 1492

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I can't wait until 2012 when nothing happens

2010-02-13 21:56:00 Author: Incinerator22 Posts: 3251

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Most descriptions of hell around the world make it out to be a cold, harsh, foggy marsh delineated or fed by a number of rivers. This, as opposed to the fields of paradise circumscribed or fed by a number of rivers. That sounds like a more Greek version of "hell", like Tartarus...

2010-02-13 21:59:00 Author: Incinerator22 Posts: 3251

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I can't wait until 2012 when nothing happens The End of the world will happen when the United Kingdom, Does a Good Opening Ceremony (waheey! We're safe)

2010-02-13 22:02:00 Author: Kern Posts: 5078

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I can't wait until 2012 when nothing happens Amen to that! I bet the Aztecs just screwed the calender at that point, i mean, they had to end it. What about KKK symbols, i think that would be racist but Hell can be Atheist too. Confusing stuff...

2010-02-15 21:42:00 Author: Emogotsaone Posts: 1030

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