Archive: 24 posts

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Two logic problems for y'all to come up with a solution to. Problem 1: The Points Puzzle This I have 2 solutions to, but I'm looking for a better (lower thermo) one. The problem here is replacing all of the secrets in a level. Rather than having a stash of points bubbles there, you instead have some kind of trigger, which activates an offscreen brain emitter. Assume that the that the trigger is a single points bubble. Solution 1: On this points bubble you place a magnetic switch, set to on off. Hook the switch up to an emitter that emits a piece of dark matter with a key on (note: emitter is set to maximum 1). When the switch is destroyed, the emitter is free to do it's normal action (i.e. emit 1 key and one key only, for a give time period). This key acts as a timer to activate the brain emitter. Simple. For each secret, the logic required is: 1 Magnetic Switch 1 emitter 1 piece of dark matter (emitted) 1 Magnetic Key. Solution 2 Place a magnetic key on the bubble and an inverted magnetic switch nearby. Set the mag switch to one-shot and connect it to a flipper winch. This flipper winch is part of a massive OR gate of all of the secrets in the level. The OR has a built in timer and will trigger the brain emitter in much the same way as above. For each secret you need: 1 Magnetic Switch 1 Magnetic Key 1 Winch You save on a piece of dark matter (actually, over 30+ secrets, that's quite a nifty saving), but that's about it. Solution 3 *Audience Participation* Problem 2: The Crushinator Conundrum Recreate the actions of the crushers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOYZtZYaHEY without using any external logic, just using the sync settings on a piston and a winch for each crusher. I was trying to do this at lunch earlier and couldn't get my head around it. I know it's possible if I add an extra winch to each crusher, but that works out too expensive.

2010-02-08 19:44:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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1. I used a piece of DM with 4 brains on them. I know it's a step in the wrong direction, but it allows the bubble collection to happen more quickly. Perhaps, for your level, a triangle with 3 brains might work more nicely. As for the big OR gate, I think that's the best solution. Now, to just think of a clever way to do it. How many points do you want each to give away? If it's not too many, I think I thought of a fun way to do it: Make your piece of DM have like 20 brains on it, which would be emitted through a global emitter. Use your OFF grabby switch as normal, but wire them into a row of Flipper-In pistons (in an old skool OR gate). Now, I know what you are thinking... but then my piston will just flipper about uncontrollably, emitting who knows how many brains. Solution? Make the square of material for your piston out of dissolve and make it smash into some DM, thereby breaking and killing it. (Note: perhaps a regular, non-flipper piston might work better?) Essentially, a permanent flipper in. When it flips in, make it trip your one-shot mag key to emit the 20-brain deluxe special. It's so crazy it might work. 2. I'll get back to you. It does sound like a simple tweak job. Maybe a permanently out piston? Global grabby switch for that is possible. What if we just find a way to reduce the external logic?

2010-02-08 20:20:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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Let me get this straight: you want a 4 pairs of crushers to work on 4 pistons and 4 winches? Or is it 8 + 8?

2010-02-08 20:57:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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1. I used a piece of DM with 4 brains on them. I know it's a step in the wrong direction, but it allows the bubble collection to happen more quickly. Perhaps, for your level, a triangle with 3 brains might work more nicely. Uh that's never gonna work with 30 odd secrets, it really needs the intermediate stage I think. It might work if each secret was emitting a single brain, but I doubt it would be more efficient. Make your piece of DM have like 20 brains on it, which would be emitted through a global emitter. Use your OFF grabby switch as normal, but wire them into a row of Flipper-In pistons (in an old skool OR gate). Now, I know what you are thinking... but then my piston will just flipper about uncontrollably, emitting who knows how many brains. Solution? Make the square of material for your piston out of dissolve and make it smash into some DM, thereby breaking and killing it. (Note: perhaps a regular, non-flipper piston might work better?) Essentially, a permanent flipper in. When it flips in, make it trip your one-shot mag key to emit the 20-brain deluxe special. It's so crazy it might work. It'll work, but bump up the thermo on the central emitter and also bump up each secret by a moving part. It's kinda funky though and I do like your thinking. They could be a flipper piston bashing into a push button and breaking in the process. That could work, but be interesting setting up 30 of them to hit the same button 2. I'll get back to you. It does sound like a simple tweak job. Maybe a permanently out piston? Global grabby switch for that is possible. What if we just find a way to reduce the external logic? I thought so, but I kept on ending up with: fast motion, long pause, slow motion back, short pause. whereas it needs to be: fast motion, short pause, fast motion back, long pause. This was in my head though, so I haven't tried in create. The external logic is just a timing wheel, 4 mag switches, 1 mag key. Let me get this straight: you want a 4 pairs of crushers to work on 4 pistons and 4 winches? Or is it 8 + 8? 8+8, one for each. That is what it is now, controlled by external logic. I'm just convinced that it should to do it with just tweak settings, so it's always bugged me. It's gonna save hardly anything thermo wise (see description of external logic above), but I'm just curious if it can be done and it will clean up the 16 extra wires smothering my generator room

2010-02-08 21:10:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Just to clarify, I used a global emitter for all secrets. I used an old school OR gate, with all pistons set to flipper-in, but I used a key pairing on each of my 12 secrets. Each causes a piston to flipper in, and extend slowly, so it emits for the duration of its flipper-in state. I honestly think it's still better than using all the point bubbles in the level. --- I love the big button idea. Also, does it need to be a button? Can you not just put a mag switch with a big ole 90 degree radius? Or would it not register on this switch before crap starts breaking? Either way, I think it would work. Remember that for 30 secrets, you can stack a row of ten pistons and overlap 3 sets of them in their own plane. Not necessary, but nice for keeping it down in size. You've piqued my interest with that one, so I'll have to check it out tonight (if I ever get this homework finished). Edit: concerned about the global emitter size? Emit a mag key for a short duration to handle emitting of smaller brain chunks.

2010-02-08 23:08:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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whereas it needs to be: fast motion, short pause, fast motion back, long pause. Hmm, you'd think this would be pretty straightforward. I was going to suggest: __ __ _ / __/ __/ piston with cruncher on top __ __ _/ __/ __/ winch pulling cruncher down _ _ _/ ___/ ___/ combined result You should be able to tweak any timing to your liking, but I tried it and it just sits there doing nothing. Winches aren't as simple as they seem, that's for sure. I tested a winch separately, and it didn't make the full motion. I had the move time pretty low and the wait time quite high, and it seems gravity wasn't able to pull it down completely in 0.2s, and in wait time it's locked down. Never knew winches have speed limits...

2010-02-08 23:45:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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Yay for waveform diagrams. my logbook at work not has 2 pages of images showing waveform diagrams of pistons and winches. The problem is that you are doing an AND operation on the waveforms and that will only work opposite to the direction of the winch (see my winch based AND / OR switches). That's how I get the pauses the wrong way around Just to clarify, I used a global emitter for all secrets. I used an old school OR gate, with all pistons set to flipper-in, but I used a key pairing on each of my 12 secrets. Each causes a piston to flipper in, and extend slowly, so it emits for the duration of its flipper-in state. I honestly think it's still better than using all the point bubbles in the level.[/quote] It will work out ever-so-slightly heavier than my points stashes on the collected objects thermo, but frees up objects that I can use for lighting and detail. It's around about what I'm going to do anyway I think, but I'm using the big fat winch OR to share 1 mag key between all secrets. Can still use the winch timings to select number of points. I love the big button idea. Also, does it need to be a button? Can you not just put a mag switch with a big ole 90 degree radius? Still gives too much thermo as each secret will need an extra mag key and moving part of it's own. Best to go back to solution 1 rather than this IMO.

2010-02-08 23:49:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Well i could make problem on create mode, but i can't explain it.

2010-02-09 02:49:00 Author: Emogotsaone Posts: 1030

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I didn't really get the question. Basically every one of your secrets causes a certain number of creature brains to emit and destroy themselves to give the player points, and you're looking for the most thermo-efficient method of acheiving it. Is that right? So you're wanting to cut down on the thermo use from having a 30-way OR gate. Would the layout of your level allow for a player tracker? If you can get a tracker to follow you throughout the level, you can rig logic on it that will detect the disappearance of the mag key on your score bubbles (two switches with concentric radii so that it can tell the difference between a key passing out of its detection and actually disappearing). Then you wouldn't need any other logic: one tracker, one detector (basically an AND gate with specific timing) and one emitter. I'm pretty sure that would be more thermo friendly than a 30 OR gate. The problem with trackers is they're really only useful for linear levels due to the whole player respawn thing. So if you die and then find a secret on your way back, before you enter the tracker's radius, the secret won't give you the points (I really wish we could make the radius of sensor switches big enough to follow you through a whole level). In that case, a car based tracker that re-emits at each checkpoint would be necessary, but it wouldn't take many checkpoints to make that solution more thermo expensive than the OR gate (you'd need logic to move the tracker emitter to each checkpoint when you trigger it, which is probably possible, but I haven't tried it yet).

2010-02-09 04:32:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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Would the layout of your level allow for a player tracker? Every level layout allows player tracker. Trick is use thin gas in following part off tracker. I don't know good solution but every secret is basically permanent switch so if you could make permanent OR that gives one-shot output and then emit brain.

2010-02-09 06:00:00 Author: waD_Delma Posts: 282

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Every level layout allows player tracker. Trick is use thin gas in following part off tracker. The problem isn't the tracker being able to move. The problem is that when the player dies and respawns sackboy won't necessarily be in the checkpoint's detection area, which means you need to re-emit the tracker. With an emitted tracker, the detector for the secrets won't have a direct link to the brain emitter, which means putting in an OR gate again, so you lose any thermometer advantage you would have gotten.

2010-02-09 06:11:00 Author: Sehven Posts: 2188

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I don't understand what you're trying do with the first problem. Why replace score bubbles with a brain emitter? You emit a brain and then what? Destroy it? Brains use more thermo than a score bubble surely, and if you're using a score bubble as the trigger anyway then isn't that double the thermo space? And if you really wanted to do this, why not just put a mag key on the score bubble, with a inverse mag switch placed in range, linked to your brain emitter. When the score bubble's collected, the mag key's destroyed thus activating the mag switch that triggers the brain emitter. I suspect you're asking for something more complex, but I can't get my head around what your aiming to do exactly.

2010-02-09 08:51:00 Author: Ungreth Posts: 2130

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The problem isn't the tracker being able to move. The problem is that when the player dies and respawns sackboy won't necessarily be in the checkpoint's detection area, which means you need to re-emit the tracker. With an emitted tracker, the detector for the secrets won't have a direct link to the brain emitter, which means putting in an OR gate again, so you lose any thermometer advantage you would have gotten. You need only one piston in this solution so you save thermo and you could put brain emitter in emitted tracker. I found another problem in it: you need one emitter for every checkpoint or another tracker that stops at activated checkpoint.

2010-02-09 11:21:00 Author: waD_Delma Posts: 282

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The problem is that you are doing an AND operation on the waveforms and that will only work opposite to the direction of the winch (see my winch based AND / OR switches). That's how I get the pauses the wrong way around I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. IIRC my set up is the same as your winch-based gates. My reasoning is that the piston will push up or pull down according to its cycle, and the winch will limit the piston's movement if it is in its in-cycle. So when the winch is extended, I would expect the piston to be free to push the block up. But it doesn't. What set-up are you using?

2010-02-09 11:29:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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Well i could make problem on create mode, but i can't explain it. Well I can make all kinds of problems in create mode, what we need here is solutions ;rolleyes: I didn't really get the question. Basically every one of your secrets causes a certain number of creature brains to emit and destroy themselves to give the player points, and you're looking for the most thermo-efficient method of acheiving it. Is that right? So you're wanting to cut down on the thermo use from having a 30-way OR gate. It's as much the triggering and the configuration of the OR gate that I'm interested in. Would the layout of your level allow for a player tracker? If you can get a tracker to follow you throughout the level, Not really, it would need to be a 2D tracker and there are the reset issues that you mention that would spiral out of control very quickly. I don't understand what you're trying do with the first problem. Why replace score bubbles with a brain emitter? You emit a brain and then what? Destroy it? Brains use more thermo than a score bubble surely, and if you're using a score bubble as the trigger anyway then isn't that double the thermo space? The concept is to take ~30 stashes of 15 bubbles, and replace that with triggers to a single brain emitter, emitting a couple of brains, to give out points instead. So instead of 450ish points bubbles, I will have 30 points bubbles, a brain emitter and some logic inbetween. I'm not saying there is a better solution, or that there even is a solution to the second problem, but these are two concepts that have bugged me for some time as to what is the "best" way to achieve them.

2010-02-09 11:46:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Smashing the blocks on a flipper piston is a no-go, even if you have already moved on from the idea. They just sink into and through the material.

2010-02-09 12:13:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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@comph: they do break, if you put DM in their path to the default position (flip out setting). I'm trying to find a way to use only a mag switch on the bubble, but without having to use another moving part

2010-02-09 13:21:00 Author: Shadowheaven Posts: 378

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I might have something here. prox on a tiny piece of material stuck to the back of the point bubble. Set it to one-shot and put it into the OR switch. When the player gets the point bubble they trigger the prox, which then drops out of detection radius, never to be triggered again. Would take some tuning and might not really be fail-safe. However, assuming you set the timing on the winch reasonably high, you can prevent duplicate triggers on the one-shot signal, you just need to tune the device so it's not possible to trigger the prox without collecting the bubble, or vice versa.

2010-02-09 13:27:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Well I can make all kinds of problems in create mode, what we need here is solutions ;rolleyes: It's as much the triggering and the configuration of the OR gate that I'm interested in. Not really, it would need to be a 2D tracker and there are the reset issues that you mention that would spiral out of control very quickly. The concept is to take ~30 stashes of 15 bubbles, and replace that with triggers to a single brain emitter, emitting a couple of brains, to give out points instead. So instead of 450ish points bubbles, I will have 30 points bubbles, a brain emitter and some logic inbetween. I'm not saying there is a better solution, or that there even is a solution to the second problem, but these are two concepts that have bugged me for some time as to what is the "best" way to achieve them. I meant to say i could FIX PROBLEM 2!

2010-02-09 13:30:00 Author: Emogotsaone Posts: 1030

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Ahhhhh, now that does have me interested. Shadowheaven came up with something, that works reasonably well but it wasn't quite right, so I got all picky about it. I was only messing with you before btw, just so you know

2010-02-09 13:39:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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To prevent duplicate triggers, set atime high enough on the winch for the small piece to fall. Back to ps3 nao. EDIT: I just experimented with sticker switches ( xD ) with a sticker on the bubble, and the bubble glued to the dm with the sticker switch, so that collecting the bubble the switch would change state, but it doesn't work, just like when you remove switches with ▲

2010-02-09 13:50:00 Author: Shadowheaven Posts: 378

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Indeed. My concern is if you manage to pop the bubble without triggering or manage to trigger the prox without popping the bubble. I would tweak it so that the former is more likely to happen. That way it's not exploitable (trigger lots of times by standing on the edge of the bubble and getting lots of reward) and also it's unlikely to happen unless a player is trying to break it, in which case, they don't deserve their points Normally people will run through the bubble anyways, so this is clearly not going to be a problem that often.

2010-02-09 13:59:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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I'm getting many crazy ideas, like using a rod to connect the bubble to a paintball, but sadly the paint disappears after a few moments. Trying to think with rods now (I guess I'm having a bit too much fun )

2010-02-09 14:23:00 Author: Shadowheaven Posts: 378

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Um.. why fuss with bubbles? Just put a prox on a piece of dissolve that looks sorta like a bubble/collectible. Make it "pop" when you get relatively close to it. You can use thin/thick to make it so you "pass through" the "bubble."

2010-02-09 14:36:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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