Home 
LittleBigPlanet 1 - PSP - Tearaway -Run Sackboy Run LittleBigPlanet 1 [LBP1] Everything Else LittleBigPlanet 1 [Archive]
#1
Should anyone other then MM be able to hand out a CROWN?
Archive: 62 posts
| Should any LBP loving website be able to pick who ever they want to have a crown? The website has there own competition, they have there own judges and they set there own rules. How can these competitions be fair when the judges are friends with some of the participants? In a court of law judges may not know the plaintiff or the defendant for good reason. Lets say you were a judge and it came down to two great levels. One of these levels was made by a long time friend. Who would you give the crown to? The stranger with a also deserving level or your friend that you talk to or play lbp with every other day. Maybe MM should provide there own judges for these competitions. | 2010-02-01 21:05:00 Author: CENTURION24  Posts: 266 |
| Well, the websites have to obtain the crowns from Mm in the first place, who no doubt, want a full disclosure of what they are being given out for. If the competition is not deemed to be fair, you can bet that Mm will cut off the crown supply... And honestly, are crowns really that big of a deal anyways? I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Crowns don't mean squat, just like ratings and hearts don't mean squat. If you really want one, there are ways to go about it. I'd much rather have respect on this website for my creation talent than a crown any day. And to answer your question, yes I do think delegation is a good idea. Mm is not the all seeing eye of Sauron, and they cannot be expected to see every crown-worthy creation, LBP level or otherwise. | 2010-02-01 21:08:00 Author: Thegide  Posts: 1465 |
| Well, the websites have to obtain the crowns from Mm in the first place, who no doubt, want a full disclosure of what they are being given out for. If the competition is not deemed to be fair, you can bet that Mm will cut off the crown supply... And honestly, are crowns really that big of a deal anyways? I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Crowns don't mean squat, just like ratings and hearts don't mean squat. If you really want one, there are ways to go about it. I'd much rather have respect on this website for my creation talent than a crown any day. And to answer your question, yes I do think delegation is a good idea. Mm is not the all seeing eye of Sauron, and they cannot be expected to see every crown-worthy creation, LBP level or otherwise. I just think that MM should pick who gets every crown that is givin out, then maybe crowns would be held in a higher regard. There is some crown holders out there that in alot of peoples opinions did not make a level that would entitle them to a crown. While at the same time the most popular creator in LBP 'SteveBigGuns' who has a wopping 55,000 author hearts from our community has no crown. On topic, Fact is these crowns do mean alot to many people but these crown competitions just seem to just wast alot of peoples time trying to win them when they realy never had a chance. | 2010-02-01 21:32:00 Author: CENTURION24 Posts: 266 |
| the most popular creator in LBP 'SteveBigGuns' who has a wopping 55,000 author hearts from our community has no crown. On topic, Fact is these crowns do mean alot to many people but these crown competitions just seem to just wast alot of peoples time trying to win them when they realy never had a chance. Well the crowns are supposed to be given out for competitions, so I don't really see what the problem is... MM don't have a great view on the community as a whole. In the sackies the primary complaint amongst many is that they didn't recognise enough different talent, or completely missed out certain creators / creations that had a right to be there. Plus you have to take into account that they have real jobs to be doing, I'd rather they were doing that and letting the fansites pick winners, than wasting their time picking crown winners. I'm not gonna disagree that some of steve_big_guns creations are crown worthy, but I don't think the number of author hearts he has is any indication of that. I've got like 100 author hearts lol, but I'd like to think I earned my crown. I just think that MM should pick who gets every crown that is givin out, then maybe crowns would be held in a higher regard. Have you seen what MM gives out crowns for? That's half the reason they are held in poor regard! Anyways, even if crowns were actually distributed to only the very top talent in LBP, what would that achieve? If you have made / done something crown worthy, then that in itself should stand as testament to what you have achieved. A DLC unlocking code really shouldn't make all that much difference. | 2010-02-01 21:51:00 Author: rtm223  Posts: 6497 |
| Even when they give out crowns for contests, they don't actually judge the contests...so... Screw crowns. | 2010-02-01 21:55:00 Author: ARD  Posts: 4291 |
| I don't really understand why the crown is so coveted anyway. I mean I do understand it of course, but it's just a bunch of polygons that in the end really say nothing. You don't gain anything but bragging rights and to be absolutely honest if you need a reward to be proud of your work you should probably sit back for a moment and think about that. | 2010-02-01 22:15:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193 |
| are[/I] held in poor regard! I think that MM has learned from the past 20crown give away. I feal that receiving a crown from MM would be an honor. Not just 'winning' one from a friend'. Maybe there should be some sort of anonymous community vote for these competitions. Sure theres going to be those people that say screw crowns or MM has better things to do, but why have these competitions if there not going to be fair. | 2010-02-01 22:23:00 Author: CENTURION24 Posts: 266 |
| Sure theres going to be those people that say screw crowns or MM has better things to do, but why have these competitions if there not going to be fair. I said 'screw crowns' because the competition wasn;t fair... | 2010-02-01 22:25:00 Author: ARD Posts: 4291 |
| I don't really understand why the crown is so coveted anyway. I mean I do understand it of course, but it's just a bunch of polygons that in the end really say nothing. You don't gain anything but bragging rights and to be absolutely honest if you need a reward to be proud of your work you should probably sit back for a moment and think about that. Your right, but lets not misunderstand the point im trying to make. Im not talking about needing anything, but for people to be given a fair shake at a crown. | 2010-02-01 22:35:00 Author: CENTURION24 Posts: 266 |
I understand. I just wanted to make a rant.  I too think that there are too many ways to get a crown. Often the contests might not be entirely fair or even deserving a crown. Note: I do not mind MM giving some random 7 year old a crown because his parents decorated their house LBP-style for his/her birthday. It's all a bit of fun after all. | 2010-02-01 22:42:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193 |
| Y'know, he kindof has a point... Judges will be slightly bias to their friends. But yeah, crowns arn't much anymore, but owning one is definately a gift for your ego. I've seen more than a few creators who have recieved a crown for no good reason. Mm should really start giving out crowns to awesome levels, like what they were actually intended for... Rather than giving them to other people running competitions. | 2010-02-01 22:42:00 Author: BlahYourHamster Posts: 177 |
| I said 'screw crowns' because the competition wasn;t fair... Ok so you got me. This thread was stemmed from the LBL competition. There we had a crown competition were the winner is a friend of all the judges and a reviewer for the website. He even says on pg1 of the competition thread 'it will be nice to win this crown once and for all'. Don't try and look that up because it has sense been edited. His level was a very fun platform level. Now with all that aside I still believe i'm bringing up a valid question. Are these competitions fair? | 2010-02-01 22:47:00 Author: CENTURION24 Posts: 266 |
| Yes Mnniska is liked, but that's not the reason why he has won, he simply made the level that in the got the most points from all three judges combined If it's any consolidation to you Centurion you were only 4 points away from winning the crown. | 2010-02-01 22:52:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193 |
| Mnniska is a very good friend of mine, so I won't say anything against him... His level was definately a contender for the competition, and was definately crown worthy, heck... 2nd, and 3rd place really should of been awarded crowns too. However, I completely see your point, and no, these competitions arn't completely fair. But if you were to judge it properly, you'd have to find friendless nobodies, which i'm sure wouldn't be easy. | 2010-02-01 22:54:00 Author: BlahYourHamster Posts: 177 |
| Yeah, it's almost impossible not to be slightly biased towards your friends. If you want full disclosure on how the judging process went in our case, we each played the level on our own and gave them 5 points for how they implemented the rules ie LBP-ifying the fairytales, gameplay, story, scenery. The four scores from each judge were added up and then all three cumulative scores were summed up, so in the ideal case you could reach 60 points (which no one did). Edit: What's more if you play through 80 or 90 levels of which many have exactly the same theme -- ie beanstalks. Ironically yours, Centurion, had one. It was the best looking one though I can assure you that. There was another slightly steampunky which wasn't bad either -- you almost had to do something special to stand out from the crowd. Which is why I personally was probably slightly more forgiving towards the people who used Ali Baba or Peter and the Wolf for example. | 2010-02-01 23:13:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193 |
| I do believe your point would hold more weight if it wasn't under these circumstances. I understand where you are coming from but because it has stemmed from you not winning the competition it is inevitably going to look like sour grapes to a lot of people. I haven't played any of the LBL levels other than CaptainCowboyHat's, so evidently what I say next is not a bearing on the creators or levels that were entered into the competition as I know nothing about them (this should help my point as it will be totally unbiased). I do probably think that being a regular on the forum and knowing the judges personally can only help your chances. Whether the judges realise they are favouring their friends level or not is another matter, but I have no doubt that it can colour your opinion of a level. I've seen many feedback on here that have clearly been coloured by their friendship, and usually that's not a bad thing at all. I suppose when it comes to a competition though it is a different matter entirely. Being a judge for the Monthly Crown Competition over the on LBW, I can honestly say that I wouldn't favour anyone and would look at the levels totally impartially. But when Steven and I were thinking of others may be suitable for judging, the one thing that we thought was most important was ensuring that this person could base their own opinions. I think a big part of being able to judge a level impartially is not really belonging to any 'group'. Now there's no doubt there's certain members here that are very close to each other, and if you asked one of them to judge their friends level, I think it would be hard for them judge it without any degree of bias after building up such a close relationship. As I said, this may not be a conscious thing, but I think it is inevitable that you would chose your friends if it came to a 50-50. I suppose the reason why I feel I am able to be totally impartial is that when it comes to the forums I'm everyone's friend, and no ones friend! There are only a few people who I have got to know personally, so my own personal bias is unlikely to ever be an issue. | 2010-02-01 23:16:00 Author: jackofcourse  Posts: 1494 |
| Thank you Syroc for your honesty and your replies and jack you are right about how people will review this threads source. to bad, I just wanted to put my thoughts out there and see if I was alone on this. I also wanted to say for the record that the winning level was very fun for me to play and i did heart and 5 star it. | 2010-02-02 02:20:00 Author: CENTURION24 Posts: 266 |
| If it makes you feel any better, I wouldn't have picked any of those nominees. Having just seen the winners I'm kinda surprised at who the judges picked, certainly not who I thought deserved the noms, but that conversation is for another day. Anyways, I'm glad you made this thread, it's not really a topic I've thought much about, but I definitely think it's one where a great conversation can be had of. I do think the "want" for the crown among some in the community has fallen, it certainly has with me, especially after the ways I've seen crowns being distributed out. That's not to say all crown holders don't deserve theirs' but I've seen a few people gamesharing crowns, to me that deteriorates it's value. I'll give you a recent example, its been only a few weeks but the creator "ruof" won a crown for his A li'l Platform level that is currently on the Highest Rated page. Now, it's not a huge secret that "ruof" is another account of lil-klash16, who gameshared the crown with his main account and his others, which include; kiiinng mistermolecule franci146 rumoz The first two accounts I mentioned he has been using to show off the crown by uploading pictures of himself on all the Story levels. As for you, I wouldn't get to worked up about not receiving a crown, there will be plenty of other competitions where you and others might just get a chance, besides, the fake crown you created is pretty awesome too. | 2010-02-02 02:36:00 Author: TheFirstAvenger  Posts: 787 |
| Everything these days is a polarity contest. (Take last night's Grammy awards for example.) I was horrified when little dead space won the sackies. I wish we had more contests like the fairy tale challenge, where honest people who acknowledged every entry had judged with an effective scoring system. | 2010-02-02 02:55:00 Author: Incinerator22  Posts: 3251 |
| i say we give EVERYONE a crown. hell, lets give them alot of crowns. infact, why not start up a C4C club where we can trade our crowns while real creators boycot crowns in favor of creating artistic levels that wont be well played, but well loved. | 2010-02-02 05:35:00 Author: poorjack  Posts: 1806 |
Hhhmm i know i shoudnt reply to all off this, but i can help myself  I see some of you saying that we didnt judge in a fair way, thats absolute rubbish. We had a points sytem and we didnt even know who was the winner till we added up all the points from all 3 judges, all the levels in the top 10 deserve to be in there becouse they were the best of the best for this competition. CENTURION you came in 3rd and that a great accomplishment concidering that there were 90 enties, you beat 87 levels and can be very proud about that Yes mnniska is a old and well respected member of littlebigland but that did absolutly not help him to win this contest, play the level and you see why he won. Crowns bring out the worst in people, i won my crown in the golf contest and i coudnt believe how people reacted against the winners when they found out that they didnt win. This contest and so are many others is not always about the best levels to win, its about what levels was able to make the best level within the theme of the contest and that is what the winners did best. I take it personal if people say we didnt judge in a fair way, we did everything we coud to be as fair as possible. But i think i must except that what ever we do in a contest, we never can do it good for some people  | 2010-02-02 13:43:00 Author: tin-cup-70  Posts: 9 |
| I really hate to post on this thread, because I fear that I am reaching my hand into a bee hive, but i figured that I have good reason for talking, and out of everyone involved in the LBL competition, I am probably the best to talk since I actually had nothing to do with the choosing of the winner. As some of you may know, I am a MOD over at LittleBigLand, so I can see all of the things going on behind the scenes in the locked forums that we have. Another thing that some of you may not know is that I do not have a PS3 at this time since I moved to China in October, so I had nothing to do with picking a winner, but I still poked my head in all the time to see how things were going since this was an exciting event. I cannot believe just how much work that the MODs over at LittleBigLand put into this (Bludhound, Syroc, and Tin-Cup). I remember when they were trying to decide how they would pick the winners, and they were dreading the idea of having each of them play every single level and assign it a score, but they still did it anyway! That is 90 levels for every single one of them, plus, they had to assign a score, and take into account all the other levels! I know that it is easy to just assume that they were biased and lazy, but trust me, these guys put forth some serious effort, and if they were just going to give the crown to their friends anyway, why would they bother? Instead, every day they were behind the scenes posting about levels they had been playing and updating eachother. I would highly encourage anyone involved in this competition to be grateful to those 3 for being so honest with the whole thing and for putting forth so much effort. No matter what happens in these competitions, there will always be people pointing fingers and accusing people of cheating. I have had many many people say that I didn't deserve my crown and that I cheated because I won my crown at LittleBigLand and I am a MOD there. But, you know what? I became a MOD months after the competition was over and decided. And to top that off, I joined the site just for the comp, so I was not involved with the site prior to the comp, and I had not history with them that would sway the judges votes. But I have still had many instances where people have accused me of cheating with no basis for the accusation. Anyway, please appreciate the hard work that the team put into this instead of being mad at them. [EDIT: Just for the record, I really really really don't want to fight or argue with anyone. I understand why you are unhappy, and I can see where you are coming from completely, I just wanted you to know that in this case, I really feel that the judges were honest. If at all possible, please do not attack me personally. If I said something that came across as mean in this post, let me know and I will delete it, because all I wanted to do is let you know what was going on behind the scenes ] | 2010-02-02 14:17:00 Author: amazingflyingpoo  Posts: 1515 |
| Personally, I hate competitions - they always seem to bring out the worst in people. Competitions are subjective, and tend to create hard feelings. And just as its possible for a judge to be biased (maybe because they love a creators' other works), it's just as possible that the creator or creators' friends are biased, and that could be causing the "sour grapes". I played MANY of these levels, and to be honest - I found most of the ones I played were very high quality and I would hate to have been a judge over 90 of them. So, instead - if the creator who won built a great level - I just congratulate. I don't want a creators' achievement to be knocked down JUST because they won the competition. I felt the same way with the Sackies. Crowns are highly overrated anyway. I have one, and you know what? It isn't that big of a deal and has nothing to do with the way you are percieved by the general LBP audience- most of which are kids and have no idea what the crown means anyway. | 2010-02-02 14:34:00 Author: CCubbage  Posts: 4430 |
| Ok so you got me. This thread was stemmed from the LBL competition. There we had a crown competition were the winner is a friend of all the judges and a reviewer for the website. He even says on pg1 of the competition thread 'it will be nice to win this crown once and for all'. Don't try and look that up because it has sense been edited. His level was a very fun platform level. Now with all that aside I still believe i'm bringing up a valid question. Are these competitions fair? I don't know what you're talking about...I'm talking about golf. | 2010-02-02 16:21:00 Author: ARD Posts: 4291 |
| now i've had a quick flick through this thread and see some people may feel it was unfairly judged because we know mnniska. but we judged it in the fairest way possible as it was done by a point scoring system, so we didn't know who the winner was until we added up all of the judges scores. plus no one can really say mnniskas level didn't deserve to win as his same level has just won the littlebigreviewers platinum trophy, so it's definitely a good level. the people who have posted on LBL who lost are all pleased with the out come and spaff is very pleased with the out come. but above all i hope no one gets upset over any crown competition as it's just a game and we're all here to have fun. | 2010-02-02 16:26:00 Author: Unknown User  |
| Look Centurion, I know you are angry, But think of it this way why not be happy that you came 3rd, Sure you didn't win a stupid costume piece, you won some wonderful hardware that if you don't want you can do whatever you want with it, The logic pack levels got crowns because of their helpfulness, So why not do something really helpful? | 2010-02-02 16:33:00 Author: Kern  Posts: 5078 |
| I am actually kinda surprised myself. No people saying I am a evil ferret,no kids claiming I have secretly muted the judges and no forums craching! This is just strange! But I guess it's becouse crowns are not as appriciated anymore,and I got to agree with that one. They did the same thing with the bugblaster for me. First is was a good and awesome costume,but then they gave it to around 250 other people too and then it lost it's value for me. [that was a bit too off-topic-ish yes? My bad. ] | 2010-02-02 16:39:00 Author: Mnniska  Posts: 531 |
| I dont think its lost its value! People who deserve one haven't got one but thats the way of the world! The golf competition was pretty excessive, but I've only ever seen about five people with them in-game, mostly because the online communities are full of the sorts of people who would have them. | 2010-02-02 17:09:00 Author: chimpskylark  Posts: 335 |
| The golf competition was pretty excessive, . Thx i won my crown in that competition, and a lot of u saying i didnt deserve to win it. Everybody in that contest made a level within the golf theme, that didnt result in briljant platformers with a lot of gameplay becouse thats impossible with a golf lvl but i deffinitly think i earned my crown by making a good level that was very good for that contest. The crown is still a rare costume piece, sure we all know sombody with a crown but thats only becouse we are all involved with the community. Most players never visit the fansites and never seen a crown for real. | 2010-02-02 17:36:00 Author: tin-cup-70 Posts: 9 |
| I see ARD is still pretty cheesed off about the golf contest... completely understandable. | 2010-02-02 17:41:00 Author: BlahYourHamster Posts: 177 |
| All I know about the golf competition, is like with five days to go-- I did a search and there were like five good entries and not too many of them were imaginative... I thought to myself then, "If I'm ever getting a crown--this is going to be it!" and then went gadding about on my way. Congratulations to those who entered and won, they are unmistakably worthy. With that said-- that kid who got a crown for his house being decorated? C'mon. What about fat kids? Skinny kids? Even kids with chickenpox luv crowns... would it help if I contacted the 'make a wish foundation'? (I do have a rather large splinter.) blah... I'll just pipe down keep spending my dough to help keep the little big planet spinning and lament the costume pieces I will never own... out of randomness ... talentlessness ...laziness and frustration. | 2010-02-02 19:02:00 Author: Gravel  Posts: 1308 |
| With that said-- that kid who got a crown for his house being decorated? C'mon. What about fat kids? Skinny kids? Even kids with chickenpox luv crowns... would it help if I contacted the 'make a wish foundation'? (I do have a rather large splinter.) Now I feel REALLY bad about how I got my crown. | 2010-02-02 20:07:00 Author: xkappax  Posts: 2569 |
| Now I feel REALLY bad about how I got my crown. Please don't! That was a hysterically funny cartoon and it wasn't like you sent it to them like a cake.  | 2010-02-02 20:19:00 Author: jwwphotos  Posts: 11383 |
| Looking at it now it is too late to do anything about it, but personally I do think Mm should have kept the Crown give aways to themselves. I don't think it matters too much now because there has been that many Community Contests with Crowns as the prize that there's no reason to stop. The damage has already been done, so to speak. For example if you go over to the workshop now, you will see about 5 Crown competitions that you can enter. All these have been from members who want to run their own competition and have asked Sam or whoever if they can offer a Crown as a prize, who has obviously willingly accepted. This has then snowballed as even more people think 'oh well if they can do it, why can't I?'. As a result it's all got a bit silly and personally I think that there's too many' Crown Competitions' going on at the moment. For me, all competitions for the crown should have been kept official from day one. As I say, I don't think it really matters anymore because we're well past that now! I've never really cared about the Crown, as in I've been 'argghhh I need it now'. I did think it was a nice idea from Mm and that it was a fantastic way to recognise and say thank you to certain people in the community. I don't think there's any doubt that it has been diluted slightly, mainly because of all the places in which t hey are now available. So, there was a time where I did want a Crown, but only because of the 'recognition from Mm' factor. With them being given away so freely, it's now probably doesn't mean as much to me. Saying that, they are still incredibly rare when you consider the whole community. It only seems like there's so many of them because with places like this you are looking at the more 'hardcore' end of the community, and obviously it is these people that are going to be receiving the crowns! So, I would say that it is still extremely rare, but personally for me, not rare enough. But that comes down to me (and a lot of other people) having total different ideas to Mm as to how the Crown should be used. It is there costume piece though...and as with everything, we must play by their rules | 2010-02-02 20:43:00 Author: jackofcourse Posts: 1494 |
| Now I feel REALLY bad about how I got my crown. Gravel spoke:" With that said-- that kid who got a crown for his house being decorated? C'mon. What about fat kids? Skinny kids? Even kids with chickenpox luv crowns... would it help if I contacted the 'make a wish foundation'? (I do have a rather large splinter.)" xkappax, c'mon now, you went so very far beyond the scope of normal appreciation of a game... your celebration of lbp reached across medias (mediums?)... and it's funny to boot!. Not to mention, older, er hmmm... your, mature, well-spoken, mannered conscientious, a fitting ambassador to the game and a nifty creator too. How that compares to what I wrote, (oh did you read it along to the tune of "I wish I was an Oscar Meyer weiner?) Because that is truly what I want to be>>>> | 2010-02-02 22:37:00 Author: Gravel Posts: 1308 |
| There'd probably just be way less crown give aways if MM had to come up with all the give away ideas and competitions themselves... but that could be a good thing, if it forced them to get even more active in the community than they already are, but that could be attention drawn away from giving us things we can actually enjoy alot more like expansions and features. I still think you shouldda got a crown after I sent MM your I love LBP pic, and sent another one the second time you did it in a month heh... but there wasn't any community support for the idea outside of me and deboerdave. I felt a huge sense of a accomplishment when we got unexpected crowns for the Contra levels after the big media blitz, and everyone knows how I feel about my level and the levels in retrospect and compared to my other work... hell, I don't think I even knew about crowns until we won them. I know plenty of people said we didn't deserve it, or still don't, but whatever... I put in maaaad work, and mine says alot when it's on my head, and represents something to me that it probably doesn't to someone else - but I can't speak for anyone else. Half the people on my friends list have crowns now lol, which either says I have some cool friends, or that it's just pretty common in the web community to have people who can access contest info or organize big ideas, or just rally the community behind them and get some name recognition from people who remember names and spend alot of time talking about those names... thus cementing them into the community's mind. Or alternatively, are awesome at what they do. ...but Steve can get one too IMO, he's awesome... so can alot of people. I think debo should get one for pioneering the custom music following system, and that 360 follow mechanism that's been adapted to much more than music... of course, I'm biased to it, and again, it's friends so maybe that's why I think it's so awesome. Steve's not though, I don't even know him. Evilpanda could use one, for having two full profiles and more, of mindbending and always fun race levels that get better each time... lots of community creators on and off the boards could. I think people who are consistently awesome in alot of peoples eyes, serious creators and casual fans alike, should just have them and then you could click a tab on LBP to browse through crown-bearer's levels heh but that would only work if it wasn't a contest deal too, so n/m. | 2010-02-03 00:39:00 Author: Unknown User |
| Ok so you got me. This thread was stemmed from the LBL competition. There we had a crown competition were the winner is a friend of all the judges and a reviewer for the website. He even says on pg1 of the competition thread 'it will be nice to win this crown once and for all'. Don't try and look that up because it has sense been edited. His level was a very fun platform level. Now with all that aside I still believe i'm bringing up a valid question. Are these competitions fair? In that case sadly they're not fair, typically in UK competitions entrants affiliated with the judges (friends, family and work colleagues) aren't accepted. I don't know the ins and outs of this in the US. I can only guess that may be part of law when something of monetary value is offered as the prize. This might not apply to the crown (however other prizes such as the keypad etc are so go figure). If the thread you mentionned is true of having been edited (and there's no reason to disbelieve you) then this shows that LBL were aware they were making a controversial or biased choice in their 'judging' of the competition. All we can do as creators looking to enter a crown competition is to do so based on how highly we personally regard the integrity of the site running it. Personally, I found the obstacles in Mnniskas level imaginative and fun - but found many others including yours - to capture the true feeling and mythic art of fairytales. Can this be said of mnniska's level? Was it really based on any fairytale the judges wrote on their list? Was Sneaky H4Her any old level with a fairytale shoe-horned in? I intend no disrespect to Mnniskas brilliant creation, it just seemed out of place considering what the judges asked for. Ah well, many were fooled - best forget about the self back patting crowd at LBL. | 2010-02-04 16:31:00 Author: Tanuki75  Posts: 172 |
| Half the people on my friends list have crowns now lol, which either says I have some cool friends, or that it's just pretty common in the web community to have people who can access contest info or organize big ideas, or just rally the community behind them and get some name recognition from people who remember names and spend alot of time talking about those names... thus cementing them into the community's mind. Or alternatively, are awesome at what they do. I think it should be the community that decides who gets the crown. If you've published X levels and have accumalated X plays and achieved positive tags - then it shows you've put effort in and made a great contribution to the overall community. There's your crown, well done you. Maybe then we can forget about these popularity contests of who's better than who (and this crown proves it) and concentrate on creating. Competitions are fun and I don't discourage them - physical prizes are more appropriate. | 2010-02-04 16:52:00 Author: Tanuki75 Posts: 172 |
| Even when they give out crowns for contests, they don't actually judge the contests...so... Screw crowns. so... i could enter a contest without winning and get a crown?... AWESOME | 2010-02-04 19:37:00 Author: vergildmcking  Posts: 190 |
| Just thought I'd pop in to give a third party perspective. Firstly I would like to state I have no affiliation with LBL beyond being a participant in the recent fairytale contest (interesting theme attracted me). I am a staff member and contest organiser on another site where we ran over sixteen contests last year so I do have some experience. A lot of interesting and valid points have already been posted. I think Centurion had good intent in raising the issue of Crown contest ethics. To examine the issues we must first consider: THE NATURE OF CROWNS Great big shiny symbols of creative magnificence or a MM device to encourage positive activity in the community. Well I'm sure if you could look inside one you would find the LBP motto PLAY-SHARE-CREATE engraved. That's why MM award them for community spirtited behaviour and actions that shine a positive light on LBP. When a crown is offered for a create contest then peoples competitive instincts come to the fore, this combined with the emotional investment creators have in their levels can make the results quite contentious. HAVE CROWNS LOST THEIR LUSTRE? A lot of levels bearing crowns won in earlier levels may seem a bit dated now but don't forget the standards are always raising, check the first publication date of these levels and they really rocked at the time of creating. Also consider how many uncrowned brilliant levels and authors are out there on LBP not basking in the light that reflects from the crown. A GOLD STANDARD Having experimented with various systems to determine the results of contests, we have determined a formula (which will be used in a forthcoming crown competition): TWO panels,TWO independent non voting scrutineers. Panels to be made up from members drawn from each of the three main forums LBPC,LBN,LBL. First panel made up of five judges plays all the levels submitted and produces a short list of ten. Second panel made up of three new judges determines top three placings. Scrutineers to expidite and observe process. Judges to have various backgrounds and experience ( a jackofcourse type so gaming mechanisams can be assessed, a NInjaMicWZ type so the artistry can be judged, someone who just likes to play rather than create etc).A real dedication and commitment is required for judging duties. This combined with a clear set of rules and judging criteria should produce a fair result and slowly start to restore the crown to its former glory. Contest post Mortem Folks love to discuss the outcomes of contests and awards, it's a fact of life. Look at Obamas nobel prize or the Oscars, but it should be done in a positive and constructive manner. If you disagree, validate your arguements but do so in a friendly way. Did the right level win? Well as they say in boxing if your fighting in the other guys town you got to knock him out to win. There were no clear knockout levels. A strong case could be made for at least half a dozen levels to win. The winning level was a good level and Mnniska is a crown worthy creator. Several mistakes were made during the LBL contest: A create crown contest should stick to the rules, this provides an objective framework upon which the subjective opinions of the judges can be added. Many levels lacked the stipulated MM/LBP content Many levels lacked identifiable Fairytale structure second placed level was published three days after the final deadline (imagine a F1 team turning up on the grid three days late and still coming second?) First placed level didn't have the correct title pre-fix 'LBL Fairytale' as others had been instructed. The top ten omitted some of the top levels indicated by completions, heart/play ratio (No CaptainCowboyhat? No Horii?) Some levels weren't completed by the judges raising the question were all levels allocated the same time and treatment. All standards that should be met. Fine some latitude should be given if it's an on forum fun event but the highest standards should be used in a crown event. The forums should work together to achieve this. Bottom Line Fun contest,organised with good intent by a decent bunch of honest guys. Needed more planning and experience, overwhelmed by sheer number of entries. All three judges are hard working, great creators,their efforts to bring fun to LBP should be applauded. Thanks for your time. I sincerely hope folks are open to some of the ideas I have suggested. p.s. if anyone would like an honest view of their level please contact me on my profile, slowly working my way through them, have played about 50 so far. p.p.s. if anyone is mad enough to fancy judging a forthcoming crown contest please contact me on my profile. | 2010-02-05 01:54:00 Author: EnochRoot  Posts: 533 |
| Good post Enoch. Some things in there that I definitely agree with. I would quote and go through them but in all honesty I just can't be bothered! One thing though,seeing as you have just told me CaptainCowboyHat's level didn't even make the top ten, I propose that this competition should be voided and no one should ever speak of it again!  I do think your judging method could do with a bit of refining. Oh and you missed the workshop forum from your panel of judges. Seeing as it is the official forum, and I'd certainly describe the Crown as an 'official' item, I think members of that forum should definitely be involved if your proposed method was used. | 2010-02-05 02:23:00 Author: jackofcourse Posts: 1494 |
| maybe you are right about this because i saw levels more awesome than the winner like yours but you didnt win that show the fairness | 2010-02-05 02:58:00 Author: ferrrch Posts: 429 |
| maybe you are right about this because i saw levels more awesome than the winner like yours but you didnt win that show the fairness The levels weren't picked based on how great they were, if it was that way, others would have been chosen as nominees. What I see is that people are forgetting that there were Rules in this competition, each level had to meet a certain criteria. | 2010-02-05 03:11:00 Author: TheFirstAvenger Posts: 787 |
| Thanks for the feedback JackofCourse, another fan of the cowboy hatted captain. No slight intended by omitting Little big workshop,who are the official site but the proposed structure was for non -official create crown contests. The LBW contests seem to be run smoothly with little in the way of dissent at the outcomes. @ Endless Echo totally agree there were rules and criteria but if you read my contest post mortem you'll see the top two failed in this regard yet were still great levels. | 2010-02-05 11:19:00 Author: EnochRoot Posts: 533 |
| In terms of one of the key points of this thread, because regardless of the bigger picture, this is a reaction to Mnniska winning the contest at LBL, a forum where he is known and respected... So what? It's like a competition being held here and someone like CCubbage or Morganna or Jackofcourse or Wex or Grant or (..... etc. etc. you get the idea). No one would be surprised if one of them won a competition. Yes, they are friendly with the site staff and active around the forums and well respected, but part of the reason they are so well respected and popular is because they are skilled creators, and really nice people, amongst other things. The same is true of Mnniska. To the people saying "no, that wasn't the best level in the contest, the whole thing was a farce".... Do I need to explain to you the concept of subjectivity? Just because your opinion is that the winning level was not best does not mean that the contest automatically wasn't fair.... simply that you have a different viewpoint to the people judging. I'm not saying who is right or wrong, just that you need to accept that other people think differently to you. Also, where people have used the analogy of real world contests not allowing entrants who have affiliations with the judges, this is also a flawed analogy as far as I'm concerned. Arguably if a forum runs a contest, the judges will have had some contact with all of the active members of that forum. So then whatdo you do? Disqualify anyone who is already a member just to be on the safe side? If not, where exactly do you draw the line? I know that one of the benefits of a contest like this, especially for a small site like LBL, is to drive traffic to the site and hopefully generate a new user base, but that is taking things a little far don't you think!? @EnochRoot: You clearly have this whole contest running thing down, and largely I agree with most of what you said, but I was just gonna pick up on a couple of things: First placed level didn't have the correct title pre-fix 'LBL Fairytale' as others had been instructed.. That's a little bit nitpicky as far as I'm concerned, you have to consider the purpose of the prefixes. It's an aid to finding the level. The judges can't (or at least shouldn't) rely on this to ensure that they can use it to find all the levels using the search engine (technical faults can occur), so they will have a list of entries collected manually and displayed for review, to ensure that all entrants are accounted for. If an entrant on the list is not found via the prefix search, they should be searched out manually. Once found, if the level does not have the prefix, the purpose of the prefix is null anyway. Essentially, if a level is disqualified for something as minor as this in a competition that is supposed to be about community interaction and fun, then the judges are simply being obtuse and a bunch of ******s. If you don't have a prefix and you drop under the radar, well that's fair enough, but disqualifying on a technicality of naming is a little bit to strict ina community contest, IMO. The top ten omitted some of the top levels indicated by completions, heart/play ratio (No CaptainCowboyhat? No Horii?) Honestly, I don't think that stats should be taken into account in a competition of this nature. Who decides which stats are the most relevant and why? Plus we all know that stats can be skewed quite easily, so having them as a yardstick is ridiculous. Stats give the illusion of objectivity, where in fact they can be abused to manipulate the results - if anything this would undermine the contest more than a panel of judges giving their honest opinions. second placed level was published three days after the final deadline (imagine a F1 team turning up on the grid three days late and still coming second?) MM did something very similar in the beta contests. Whilst the level was a well-deserving winner, it was submitted after the date stipulated in the rules (published on time, but sumbitted late, a violation of the rules and the point here seems to be "rules is rules", right?). I also think, and this is purely personal opinion, that a couple of other levels met the specification of the contest better that the winner, even though the winner was by far the best level. So bringing this back around to the original concepts, are MM better qualified to give out crowns than fansites, upon the evidence from multiple competitions, I still have to say no. They are just people, they are subjective, they'll let the rules slide because they know that the contests should be about fun and participation and they'll use their own judgement to make the decisions. That beta contest announcement caused as much, if not more, contention than this one, in the way MM handled the three contests together (I'd like to clarify that that was my gripe there - anyone who spent 10 minutes making a boat was considered a winner, but the people who slaved for countless hours to create a complete level were simply snubbed by MM. I don't, and never did, begrudge the winners and certainly don't care about the costume piece, it was MM's sloppy handling of the way they announced the results, the inconsistency of their attitudes and lack of forethought that got my back up). Again, as for the basic topic of should MM be the only ones to give out crowns, it seems to me that some elements of the LBP community view the employees at MM as being somehow godlike in stature. It's like the way that kids look up to their parents. You know how when you are little, you believe that your dad knows everything and is infallible? Remember that MM are just a bunch of people - a really cool and awesome bunch of people - but people nonetheless. They are not magically more objective and wiser than the rest of the world and there are plenty of people on the fansites who are just as qualified to judge competitions. As far as I can tell EnochRoot's (and LBL's) approach to competition judging is far more objective and (very importantly) open than MM. We have no idea exactly what criteria they use for deciding contest winners, or the process they use for decision-making. Plus, it's a freaking imaginary piece of clothing. I know that's been brought up already, but seriously, reality check here. There are more important things in your life, and even in your littleBigLife, than having a shiny hat. | 2010-02-05 13:02:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497 |
| Plus, it's a freaking imaginary piece of clothing. I know that's been brought up already, but seriously, reality check here. There are more important things in your life, and even in your littleBigLife, than having a shiny hat. An excellent point that is lost on so many people that do not have said shiny hats already. I felt a new low yesterday when I was over at LBW and saw the crown competition for making a sackboy costume that looks like you in real life. Between the people dressing up to look like sackboy and the people merely taking EyeToy shots of their clothing and slapping the resulting sticker on sackboy, its completely obvious that crowns mean nothing. Should five minutes of work dressing up sackboy be rewarded in the same way as someone who spends hundreds of hours building a magnificent level? And when will we see crown codes appearing on eBay? Just some food for thought... | 2010-02-05 16:22:00 Author: Thegide Posts: 1465 |
| 4 pages of nagging about how wrong lbl handled this contest and a grand total of 2 replies in this thread to congratulate mnniska! https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=22119-LittleBig-Land-s-Fairytale-contest-winner-announced Enough said | 2010-02-05 16:55:00 Author: tin-cup-70 Posts: 9 |
| Not quite 4 pages of nagging though is it? There's plenty of discussion in here too. | 2010-02-05 17:08:00 Author: Matt 82  Posts: 1096 |
| No not quite 4 pages of nagging, some make actualy good points. But only 2 people to congratulate Mnniska isn't right | 2010-02-05 17:15:00 Author: tin-cup-70 Posts: 9 |
| Here's my philosophy on crowns (and on many other silly conundrums around LBP) : I don't care about crowns. I don't care if I never OR will get one. Much like I don't care about shark levels and bomb levels and russelsmussels and all of the pastrami. I only believe in quality and God, and that's fine enough for me. If I wanna get so dramatic about playing LEGOs with a ragdoll so I can get a "free downloadable object", I can do that on my OWN time when I'm NOT having fun playing the games (like LBP) I like. | 2010-02-05 23:36:00 Author: Outlaw-Jack  Posts: 5757 |
| Hey,It's not a real contest if there's no nagging heh trough the whole creating process I saw things that people would go nuts on. I knew that the slightest little tweak in the wrong way would make people thinking it was unfair. Here is another nag-subject: To fix a very serious bug that would make Sackboy appear in the middle of the level I had to Republihs the level once AFTER the deadline! :kz: Gad on! | 2010-02-06 02:14:00 Author: Mnniska Posts: 531 |
| I remember you. We spotlighted your entry. Had to look up my comments but I'm reliably informed that I loved it. Well done you. | 2010-02-06 02:23:00 Author: Matt 82 Posts: 1096 |
| The thing with crowns, I think, is that some people just feel they need recognition, or a reward, for what they've done / accomplished. For example, it's actually a sad fact that games that offer achievements / trophies will sell better than if they offered no such reward system. People like to be recognized, and (to some) what better way is there of achieving this than getting an item that's held in such high regard? Personally I don't care for the crown, I think it spawns a large amount of unhealthy competition. Running and competing in contests is absolutely fine, so long as It's done in a sportsman like and friendly way. But if you're goal from the get go is a crown, and that's the only thing you're focused on, then you're creating for the wrong reasons, in my opinion. | 2010-02-06 05:33:00 Author: Duffluc  Posts: 402 |
| Wow Enoch, thanks for visiting here... good to see you. Enoch is a good friend of mine. He and I were some of the very first members of LBPF, and they've always supported me and my work, and have always had a respect and fondness for the work of LBPC-only creators. Be nice. | 2010-02-06 14:41:00 Author: Unknown User |
| I like to argue. sorry for posting that lol. im going to add to it so peple dont think im a moleperson. lets see... crowns used to be like a sort of... medal of honor. if you got one, it was because you did something to advance the community. something amazing that took LBP in a cool new direction. now its for doing better versions of the old stuff. I think the REAL issue isnt crowns, competitions, or the value of DLC... its that weve all gotten a bit burned out havent we? is this really the limit of LBP? or can we stretch it farther than this? Can we take another leap and take this game in yet another new direction? IDK. its late. maybey i make no sense to you people, or maybe i havent complained enough yet. oh well. | 2010-02-07 07:16:00 Author: poorjack Posts: 1806 |
| Enoch is a good friend of mine..... Be nice. I'm not wure what that "be nice" comment is all about ninja or who it's directed at. It implies people aren't being nice to him, which is strange as only 2 people have actually responded to enochroot's post directly, both of which open by saying that it was a good post: Good post Enoch. Some things in there that I definitely agree with. @EnochRoot: You clearly have this whole contest running thing down, and largely I agree with most of what you said, but I was just gonna pick up on a couple of things: | 2010-02-07 12:52:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497 |
| Well, I may walk in a mined field, but even this site is a little biased with some creators, and I can assure you that I had contact with at least 10 people who think this way. I also want to say, that making a full fledged tutorial is not the same as making a good costume...still both earned a crown... | 2010-02-07 13:26:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112 |
| Well, I may walk in a mined field, but even this site is a little biased with some creators, and I can assure you that I had contact with at least 10 people who think this way. I think the point is that everyone is biased to some degree - many younger ones will be biased to creators that are really visible on cool levels or highest rated - assuming they are the "best" just because they've accomplished that. Others will be biased towards creators that do much more challenging levels, and still others just because they are familiar or enjoy certain styles. So, when there's a contest there needs to be ways to have objective judging, as well as the proper resources to judge properly. I USED to think this site was biased when I first got here until I realized you only get out of it what you put into it. A creator which everyone knows can get attention on the showcase, whereas others need to work a bit harder by doing some F4F. Just about any creator can come in here, do some feedback, take part in some discussions and make friends. | 2010-02-07 13:49:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430 |
| Yeah CC, if I'm still here, and the others too, it's because we know that this is still the best LBP community, still it's not flawless, but it's another issue. What I mean is that even ConfusedCartman or the spotlighters would hand crowns, you would still rightly read naggies, mumblings and rants. On a side note CC...are you still endorsing Tiger Woods? | 2010-02-07 14:04:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112 |
| On a side note CC...are you still endorsing Tiger Woods? Interestingly, the popularity of the level picked up a bit of steam AND quite a few hearts AFTER the incidents. It's actually inspired me to possible create a new one, but base it in Vegas.... XD But yes, I understand where you're coming from where contests are concerned - I think there's a reason why this site generally only has contests for members. It helps a bit. And if there was a contest that was more open to the public, we would definately want to learn from this and bring in some outside judges. | 2010-02-07 14:11:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430 |
| I think Mm should let NuclearFish give one away for a Contraption Challenge sometime! That'd be cool! | 2010-05-22 21:27:00 Author: Weretigr  Posts: 2105 |
| I'm not wure what that "be nice" comment is all about ninja or who it's directed at. It implies people aren't being nice to him, which is strange as only 2 people have actually responded to enochroot's post directly, both of which open by saying that it was a good post: wow this was awhile back... it wasn't directed at anyone. that was me just introducing a friend; this is my friend, he's cool, be nice to him. | 2010-05-25 23:26:00 Author: Unknown User |
LBPCentral Archive Statistics
Posts: 1077139
Threads: 69970
Members: 9661
Archive-Date: 2019-01-19
Datenschutz
Aus dem Archiv wurden alle persönlichen Daten wie Name, Anschrift, Email etc. - aber auch sämtliche Inhalte wie z.B. persönliche Nachrichten - entfernt.
Die Nutzung dieser Webseite erfolgt ohne Speicherung personenbezogener Daten. Es werden keinerlei Cookies, Logs, 3rd-Party-Plugins etc. verwendet.
Die Nutzung dieser Webseite erfolgt ohne Speicherung personenbezogener Daten. Es werden keinerlei Cookies, Logs, 3rd-Party-Plugins etc. verwendet.