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Dead Sacks Cave (LBPC Co create contest entry) "SPOTLIGHTED!" Thank you LBPC!

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Dead Sacks Cave (LBPC Co create contest entry) "SPOTLIGHTED!" Thank you LBPC!fijski8
Co created by Codibear8383 and fijski8 for the LBPC co create contest.

Dead sacks cave, can you make it out alive? Fly a plane, explore a cave, solve easy puzzles, swim and fight a boss!

The boss was really tough, didnt want to use the paintinator and Codi made the cool looking creature, took me a longtime to figure out how to put the boss in without going the easy route (shoot it until he dies).

Really hope you all enjoy! This is what Co create is all about!

This level was so fun to make! You can clearly see fijski8 and codibear8383 styles through the whole level.

2 LBPC signs that should promote some new traffic to the site! 1 at the start and 1 at the end.
Enjoy! and Thanks for playing!		2010-02-01 17:34:00

Author:
fijski8
Posts: 159

Can you make it out alive?
sure, it was like a walk in the park.

Let me start by saying I cannot believe this level still has 5 stars after 4000 plays.
Not to give you a slap in the face,
but there was almost no gameplay, the visuals where average and it was short.. really short.

The few "puzzles" you got here only existed out of bringing a ball to a slot and "tadaa" doors open.
Most places where there are spikes.. the spikes are only for decoration and to give the player the intention its scary and deadly while it totally is not scary or deadly at all because the winches will bring you savely to the other side.

Especially the water parts felt totally empty and nothing really happens under water besides a few very simply made and avoidable spiked platforms.

I did like the boss, it looked good for an original insect, not top notch but good enough.
I also liked the way you had to kill him without the use of that pesky paintinator.
I hated however.. that it doesnt show any signs of when he is gonna shoot/spit gas/electro-plasma thingies, I would really suggest giving some visual aid on when he is gonna spit out the gas.
What I hated more however was the fact that every time you grab the rock and swing it to the bug..
You die.
Its inevitable.
Not to mention he doesnt even respond to a huge rock hitting his head/side,
he just dies after getting hit 4 times.

the lighting is kind of dull as well, you can do so much more with the lighting in this temple.
the only thing noticable with the lighting where a few small rays of light that couldve looked so much better with the right settings.
Also the half circles the flames are on could have been made a lot smaller or the flames itself a lot bigger as they feel out of place and the combination of the big half circle and the small flame gives it a oversized undersized feel.

And.. the level is short.
Really short, as in.. took me less than 6 minutes to complete it.
And looking at the visuals, whats moving etc.. the logic it probably uses..
you should have at least half the thermo left for improvement,
if not.. that kinda means you have to improve your way of editing to get more out of the thermo.

I love your "Jones" levels and my personal rating would be an 8.0 out of 10 for them,
But I really think you are making it yourself to easy Fijs,
where is the challenge? where are the mind boggling puzzles? where is the adrenaline rush? wheres the fun?
And.. where are the visuals?

Sorry,
but 3 stars in-game as it needs work and a lot more love.		2010-02-01 19:30:00

Author:
Luos_83
Posts: 2136

Thanks apprecaite the feedback.
This is the longest i spent on a level. We both spent about 40 days. everyday. 3 stars sounds kinda rough. But thats ok.
Thanks for all the tips, on how i could improve. The atmosphere, lights and decor (candles) was all Codi department. I felt she really helped the level out.
Codi also made the plane and the boss. I just made the way to kill him.
Me i made the gameplay and mechanics.
I thought we were a perfect match. She is an artist and i know how to make a simple, yet fun structure.
How has it kept its 5 stars? The formula in the level is why. checkpoints galore, easy puzzles, easy boss and in my book extremely pretty to look at.
Many havve told me this is the best work they have ever seen me do. And i'm afriad i'd have to agree.


Thanks for playing it 2x.		2010-02-01 21:22:00

Author:
fijski8
Posts: 159

Hiya,
I played this once with luos and once with clarie. We thought it was a good solid level which was nicely decorated. The plane arrival with watery landing looked particularly nice. I liked the way the swimming sections were well lit and clear - I like to be able to see where I'm going!

I felt the level was very 'safe'. It wasn't original, and there wasn't anything 'hard' or challenging about it. For younger players this is fantastic! - They will really enjoy it, be able to complete it, and rate it highly. I felt it was a little bland in terms of gameplay and I would have liked to see something a bit trickier. That said - there are enough people who really like your levels - so I dont think you need to please me

I thought the end boss was a nicely done, and swinging rocks worked well. I found it slightly frustrating that I couldnt predict the pattern of the electric stuff, but as it was an infinite life point it didnt matter.

I think luos main gripe is you still have 5* and his doesnt so dont worry about him I thought it was a good level for kids which will be very popular.		2010-02-01 22:22:00

Author:
TheAdipose
Posts: 533

Thanks! Really apprecaite it! And you naailed my goal! I make levels that everyone will enjoy. From my 6yr old daughter to people like luo, who demand hard!!!
He may say he rated 3 stars. But i am sure deep inside, he had a blast.
Thanks TheAdipose. Your reply made me feel way better! (hope i spelt your name right)		2010-02-01 23:01:00

Author:
fijski8
Posts: 159

I just played this level, and I think three stars is bull... sorry Luos, but I think you're being a wee bit harsh.

Your visuals are fine. The level is incredibly pretty. Not something you see much of around LBP. Normally visuals are something I cut down when not top notch, being someone of like mind. I liked your use of lighting... especially the blue backlighting in your water area how it contrasts with the yellows of your above water. The vines from the ceiling were a great touch.

Easy. Yeah. I'm surprised I didn't ace this on my first try. But this is why you've still got 5 stars. My theory is that when young kids die in a level they quit and rate it 1-star. Too easy for me, but I enjoyed the level anyways. I do agree with what both reviewers have said... that there's not much original in terms of the puzzles and such. For someone with your skill visually, I hope to see some more creative puzzles in the future.

Your formula for stars and plays is bang on. Cater to the lowest common denominator and you get good ratings.

My only real criticism of this level, other than the lack of difficulty, is that there was no story at all. For all the speech bubbles you had with "..." in them, you could have had some internal monologue to make these parts more interesting.

A deserved 5-star, but having read your replies, just a friendly reminder not to let it go to your head... Remember, hearts plays and ratings all mean squat in LBP.

If you're doing F4F, you can check out my level Fireball Island. Right now I'm looking for feedback regarding what's "tricky" about it, particularly from the younger audience. Thanks.		2010-02-01 23:20:00

Author:
Thegide
Posts: 1465

Thanks TheGide! Just played your level and left feedback!
After playing yours, I think I will add some story in those speech bubbles! Apprecaite it!		2010-02-02 00:10:00

Author:
fijski8
Posts: 159

Thanks I saw your comment, glad you enjoyed the level so much Let me know if I can help in any way. Cheers!2010-02-02 02:06:00

Author:
Thegide
Posts: 1465

I know adi meant it with pun that he said the stars thing was what was bothering me.
that isnt the case, I can understand that youngsters love the level, but the fact that everything was so easy and a no brainer from begin to end kinda put me off.

When I booted up lbp after a year of giving it up and maybe even hating the game,
your jones levels where one of the first I played.
I loved the looks, the way new pathways showed up and how easy everything flowed into eachother without any hickups.
Now a few months later I see Fij submitting a level for the co-op competition and I felt intimidated.
But after playing the level (once without knowing it was a level from you, and once knowing it was a level from you) the level really feels like three steps back comparing to the jones levels.


This is the longest i spent on a level. We both spent about 40 days.Why do I not believe that?
I could probably recreate your level in two weeks if not one.
Now it might be just a difference in working obviously, but I cannot believe that this is the result of 40 days of hard work and labour.


He may say he rated 3 stars. But i am sure deep inside, he had a blast. No I did not.


Thanks! Really apprecaite it! And you naailed my goal! I make levels that everyone will enjoy. From my 6yr old daughter to people like luo, who demand hard!!!Well.. You kind of not did a good job if this is for people like me who demand hard.

I rate levels on a different way than most people,
mostly because I have been an enviroment artist,
I know its a weak excuse but I have seen so many enviroment designs in my life, read so many books about it that I started to use a score out of ten.

Design: max of 3 points
Gameplay: max of 3 points.
Audio/visual: max of 3 points.
Originality: max of 1 point.

First of all, nothing can achieve a 10, for the soul purpose that everything can allways be improved and nothing is perfect.,
Any artist would agree.

Design: simple yet effective.
no real interesting things besides boss.
No hickups, no edges that can get you stuck (I know how much adi hates things that make him go stuck)
2.0

Gameplay: seriously lacking,
No (real) puzzles, nothing hard besides jumping/grabbing, most of them not even in sequences.
the only "hard" thing to do is the boss, and its rather simple to kill.
1.5 for gameplay.

Audio (1 point max)/visual (2 points max)s: sound was certainly there, visuals where not really that special..
Or.. how do I put this.. No real efford was taken to take it all to the next level, to make it stand out more among the rest.
It all was very clean though as I stated at design.
1 for sound, 1.2 for visuals.
That makes 2.0 for audiovisuals.

Originality:
Besides the way you have to damage the boss, you cannot really say that this level was really original.
0.2 points for originality.

That makes the total sum: 5.9.
Rounded up a 6 out of 10.
resulting in a 3 out of 5 in lbp stars.

Getting up an 8 (jones levels for instance) is high in my book.
But this level (my personal opinion) is a 6.
I also want to make clear, that this score it by no reason biased because you entered the competition not at all,
I have no clue on what the voters want in a level, it might be yours is spot on,
maybe they go for extremely long and frustrating like miglioshi/slayers level, go for some fun co-opping or go for something out of the box like konniksanders submission.

It might have to do with the fact that I really expected more from you,
And that might have been a mistake on my part.
But I really do think you can do better.


My only real criticism of this level, other than the lack of difficulty, is that there was no story at all. For all the speech bubbles you had with "..." in them, you could have had some internal monologue to make these parts more interesting.

A deserved 5-starHow can something that is lacking of difficulty and story in your opinion be a full 5 stars?



and last but not least,
@ adi/gide
I am sure Fij can hold his own in a conversation/discussion so I do not understand why you are "proctecting" him, by putting me down.		2010-02-02 02:56:00

Author:
Luos_83
Posts: 2136

I didn't put you down, Luos. I only stated that I strongly disagreed with how you rated the level. I'm sorry if it felt personal, but that really wasn't my intention.

How can I give it 5 stars? Because a) I feel difficulty is irrelevant to a rating and b) because the level is better than 4 stars in my opinion, and I can't award a 4.75. I agree that no level can truly be perfect, but I don't consider 5 stars any mark of perfection at all.

I think the level looks great visually. The pathing was interesting enough. I thought the two stage door locks were innovative. The gameplay was simple and not hugely original, but there was enough things to do to keep me from getting bored. There were no apparent level bugs. I thought that was worth 5 stars.

I award two or less stars to levels that demonstrate a clear lack of effort from the author or are riddled with gameplay bugs. I award three stars for levels that were a good effort, but lack visual polish and either have punishing gameplay or no gameplay at all. I award four stars for levels that are visually brilliant but have the same gameplay related issues as the three star levels. I award five stars when the level is at least decent all around. All ratings are subject to my personal feelings about the level when I finish it.		2010-02-02 16:06:00

Author:
Thegide
Posts: 1465

I liked this one alot.

+ Great visuals
+ Very nicely lit
+ Cleanly built and polished nicely
+ Good material use and geometry
+ Easy platforming which is appealing to younger or less skilled players (nothing wrong with this - knowing your audience is a good thing)

Is it hard - no, but it doesn't have to be. That's the beauty of LBP you can have a walk through level with minimal platforming and still have a good level. It's all really a matter of taste. It's true that a lot of the platforming isn't really new or innovative but what you do have is done very well and works great. I too would rate this 5 stars and I hearted it.		2010-02-02 17:43:00

Author:
Morgana25
Posts: 5983

nontheless,
My apologies to Fij,
It was no personal flame or whatever,
I think yesterday was a bad day for me.
Ive been overly friendly the last month and I guess everything came rushing out yesterday.

To make it fully clear, I do really think this level is great for the youngers out there, and I should not have been so harsh.		2010-02-02 20:47:00

Author:
Luos_83
Posts: 2136

I'll make sure to play this level. When I come back - I will give it a full review and tell you what could have been improved and what score I gave it, etc.2010-02-02 21:46:00

Author:
Richasackboy
Posts: 619

I really enjoyed this level, the visuals were nice and the puzzles and platforming were easy without being simple (or is that simple without being easy?), just a nice easy relaxing level to make your way through. True it is no assault on the visual senses like some other levels people have made but then does it really have to? A lot of ppl get to uppity about the look of a level and totally forget that the most important thing is the gameplay (and fun aspect thereof) and this level has that in spades2010-02-02 22:20:00

Author:
cthulhu82
Posts: 211

i dunno if ihave told you this but its awesome i like the puzzles which are fun n simple i love the environment codi set to the level its unique and thers an awesome boss 5 stars well deserved for your 40 days hard work and heart.2010-02-02 22:37:00

Author:
ferrrch
Posts: 429

I liked this one alot.
I too would rate this 5 stars and I hearted it.

Thank you so much! This really made me happy coming from the Queen of LBPC! Congrats on your Crown!


My apologies to Fij,

No problem man! I have had worse! lol. Apology accepted. I learned alot from what you said.


I'll make sure to play this level. When I come back - I will give it a full review and tell you what could have been improved and what score I gave it, etc.

Thanks man!


I really enjoyed this level, the most important thing is the gameplay (and fun aspect thereof) and this level has that in spades

Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it! I try to make my levels simple and smooth! I learned ALL of it from Jack of Courses thread here on "how to make a level!" It is a must read!


i love the environment codi set to the level its unique and thers an awesome boss 5 stars well deserved for your 40 days hard work and heart.

Thanks! ferrrch! I will tell Codibear what you said!! I think she did awesome! She made the boss and the plane too! I never once wondered what she was doing while creating. She did her thing and I did mine.		2010-02-03 00:08:00

Author:
fijski8
Posts: 159

I really enjoyed this a lot. Codi done a great job with the visuals. The design and small details such as vines, skulls, lamps etc kept the look varied and intesting. The gameplay was very smooth with no frustrating parts at all. The puzzles were simple yet fun to do. The boss could do with sound effects when the boulders make contact and maybe activate the sound it makes when emitting the gas before instead of during to give a warning so it can be avoided. I think the is your best work so far and rated 5 stars.2010-02-03 01:38:00

Author:
SteveBigGuns
Posts: 423

My Analysis: It was very decorative, even though some times a wee repetitive (the decorations), it still managed to keep me focused on more than just finishing. The gameplay was fun, but a little short; and the boss was a little easy. Overall, I give it a 9/10; and rounding up a 5/5. ^_^2010-02-03 02:00:00

Author:
W4RDevin
Posts: 3

great lvl 5 stars2010-02-03 04:16:00

Author:
monkeysboys
Posts: 3

I really enjoyed this a lot. Codi done a great job with the visuals. The design and small details such as vines, skulls, lamps etc kept the look varied and intesting. The gameplay was very smooth with no frustrating parts at all. The puzzles were simple yet fun to do. The boss could do with sound effects when the boulders make contact and maybe activate the sound it makes when emitting the gas before instead of during to give a warning so it can be avoided. I think the is your best work so far and rated 5 stars.

Thanks Steve for the awesome review! I added speakers for the impact of the bolders, but for some reason you can't always hear them. I will Definetly add some type of warning on the gas. Thats 2nd time i have read this.


My Analysis: It was very decorative, Overall, I give it a 9/10; and rounding up a 5/5. ^_^

Thanks for playing! And specail thanks for posting!! Codi worked really hard on decorating!! woot!


great lvl 5 stars

Thanks monkey!		2010-02-03 14:48:00

Author:
fijski8
Posts: 159

I thought the gameplay of this level was not so appealing... It was more of a level that you just seemed to float through... Nothing too interesting to catch your eye. Due to the large amount of "scenic" levels about, this needed more gameplay to appeal to a younger audience. The other people in this topic have posted saying it's better for younger audiences - And since I'm part of that audience, I have to put my own review in to be fair.

The boss was unpredictable, and I heard a lot of "breaking" noises when it shot it's electric things. What did the rocks that you hit against him symbolize? Rocks? Because they were pretty small and didn't really look as though they hurt him. As for the "wealth of checkpoints", I found that in your spike traps on pistons did not have a checkpoint before or after that was quite close enough. I had to run through some more scenery and then get to the traps, which were easily avoided. I found the beginning a bit odd, and the plane a bit unconvincing (as well as the landing). I would try to make it out of Gekko armor plating with a gray sticker or something... Embossed cardboard is not a good material for this. The scenery, as it was, was mostly the attractive thing about the level. All the other traps and puzzles were particularly easy.

If you were the main component in making this level's logic, why didn't you make it more advanced? Were you aiming for a younger audience? Or did you decide that after you'd released it? 40 days to make a level on and off... Could that not amount to 30 days? Yes, I'm sure it could. A level like that with scenery could take a month... However, the logic involved in the level could only really take up a week, max.

The story was almost nonexistent, except for the description. In the end, you simply fall into a grotto in the cave. Seeing as you're supposed to find out why no sackboy has escaped alive, why don't you escape alive? It was a semblance of a storyline, but it was left in the dust when the plane touched the ground. I'm sure you could have elaborated with speech bubbles, perhaps even skeletons. Especially at the boss fight.

My full rating;

Story; 2/5 (Storyline needs elaboration when in the cave)
Gameplay; 2.5/5 (Needs work on the puzzles... A lot more)
Scenery; 5/5 (Extremely well done here)
Challenge/Hazards; 3/5 (There should've been more spikes about, and the boss needed more to it)

Overall; 3.5/5 - It needs work, but it's a good level.

I hope you can take this review into account so you can incorporate puzzles more into your, and other peoples scenery, Fijski.		2010-02-03 16:18:00

Author:
Richasackboy
Posts: 619

I hope you can take this review into account so you can incorporate puzzles more into your, and other peoples scenery, Fijski.

Thanks for the review! I try to make my levels simple. I used to ride a skateboard for 14 years and feel playing a videogame should be similar, give you a flowing, fun feeling. I decided not to add speech in the bubbles, why? because they are strickly there to assist players in the next direction. (cutscenes).
As for the logic, I make the logic so it will work 100 percent of the time. I tried many ways to add new logic, but it did not work everytime. Which means, i will not keep it in. Logic is the last thing i put in a level. Gameplay is my first concern. If it isn't like a good day skateboarding, landing all your tricks, then i won't add it. Things that don't work 100 percent of the time result in players quiting or restarting. I always consider 4 players while creating too, I believe you should never make a level for 1 player only. If it doesn't work for 4, I won't allow it in the level.
Thanks for playing! And i will take into account all your points!		2010-02-03 16:46:00

Author:
fijski8
Posts: 159

As for the logic, I make the logic so it will work 100 percent of the time. I tried many ways to add new logic, but it did not work everytime. Which means, i will not keep it in.I can always give you a quick learning tour,
if you know your logics you can make very interesting things that will always work,
and once you understand the basics.. expanding your knowlegde of logic is easy.
the thermo is the limit in this case.


Logic is the last thing i put in a level. Gameplay is my first concern.Logic can be just another part of good designed gameplay,
when working out a floorplan logic is often the first thing that is fully working in my level to make sure it works,
also since the average builder plays trough his level at least 20 to 40 times he will notice when the logic borks.
The only real b0rking things in multiplayer are often the forgotten "grab all" (grab-switch + prox set to req all),
and the fact that pistons and winches will start to act very weird.. suddenly moving for no reason (mostly happens when a few moveable objects are attached to a lot of pistons/winches like "blarggh" in Sack 4 played online with lag)


f it isn't like a good day skateboarding, landing all your tricks, then i won't add it.Isnt skateboarding hard? how long did it take you to learn the ollie, let allone a kickflip mctwist.
Get my point?, your comparison is not very accurate as pressing the "X" button is different from fully understanding balance and body movement on a moving object one might want to flip between its legs.

*Falls down, grinds face over floor for the next 5 miles*

Kids can solve the hardest puzzles.. but they need to get a feel for it.
So if you have a big puzzle with 5 switches, and three of those switches have to be dragged into place..
you might want to start out with some simple dragging the key to a keyhole,
a few simple 2 or 3 switch puzzles before they come across the big puzzle.
It might be hard, but since the kids have had practice.. it will be easier for them than you think.

Just to give you an idea: http://inventors.about.com/od/kidinventions/Inventions_Made_By_Kids.htm


In 1994, Kathryn Gregory, now a teenager from Bedford, Massachusetts, became an inventor and an entrepreneur at the age of ten.
Kathryn invented and trademarked Wristies. Wristies are protective winter gear that are designed to be worn under your coat and gloves that block the snow, wind, and cold from entering any unprotected gaps.
Also while a kid inventor, Kathryn Gregory started Wristies, Inc., a company to manufacture and sell Wristies. The young entrepreneur, has made deals with the Girl Scouts, Federal Express, and McDonald's. In 1997, Kathryn Gregory became the youngest person to sell on QVC, the television shopping show.
As I recall... In the UK there is a (now) 10 years old kid that is part of the concept artist team that works for a toy company.

And wasnt there some 14 year old kid that created a hydrogen-electro generator (or something) in his basement a few years ago?
I recall it being on the news, but cant seem to get the right "tags" in google to find it.


Things that don't work 100 percent of the time result in players quiting or restarting.Test, test, try and test again, curse at it, throw your controller at your screen, pull it out, try again untill you fall down on your knee's of pure joy.. It works!!
Again, I can give you a crash course logic if you want.


I always consider 4 players while creating too, I believe you should never make a level for 1 player only.Hmm.. tell that to "Nintendo" when they where working on zelda,
Or tell that to "Rockstar" when they made GTA (yes, last one can be played online.. but thats fun for like.. 2 days)Also..
Also.. ask "Squaresoft" why the final fantasy series are single player only.

It totally depends on what you are making, what your purpose and goal is.
In your case you want to be sure 4 players can get trough the level, and every level should be playable with four players..
Unless stated otherwise. the author might have his reasons.. like I do.		2010-02-03 17:26:00

Author:
Luos_83
Posts: 2136

Ok, Just did final Update to level and is ready for judging.
Updated based on feedback from here and comments.

Boss updated, slower attacks with warnings, Mini bosses now only attack in certian areas, and added more sound effects.

Added some story elements.

Points update and prizes.

Again thank you lbpc for the Spotlight! Really means alot me! If it came with a certifacate i would frame it!		2010-02-12 18:53:00

Author:
fijski8
Posts: 159

Was quite a grand level, loved it. Nice intro too not too long and still epic. The water layers were beautiful, really stunning stuff. Game play wise I thought was perfect really, straight forward stuff, nothing that makes you hate the level... dunno why it's tagged tricky... anyway 5 stars, tag brill2010-02-23 15:15:00

Author:
LordMagicPants
Posts: 187

Awsome level!!

you'r getting much good feedback here even from morgana and steve!!		2010-06-28 17:27:00

Author:
Jonaolst
Posts: 935


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