Archive: 33 posts

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For the past week I have been working on my first full-size level. At first I started out with simple switches and basic platforming material to get the hang of the level editor, but once I felt comfortable with where my level was going, I decided to go big on the switch logic. At first, it was hard to get the right settings for the pistons and key switches etc (I had to make all the logic objects myself). However, once I got everything I needed in place, the kind of thought process I used to figure out how to get things to work reminded me a lot of when I used to program with Flash Actionscript and I was able to understand the connections a lot better than I originally thought I would. So, here is my speculation: Does programming experience improve understanding of switch logic? Has anyone else with a programming background experienced this as well?

2010-01-29 19:42:00 Author: ElectrizCity Posts: 13

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I would say it definitely does but only from what I've seen here on LBPC. Most of the switch/logic guys I know are involved with computers, programming or other technical fields. Off the top of my head I can name a few that fit this description (as far as I can recall) Vortex, CCubbage, Jwwphotos, comphermc, rtm223, Mrsupercomputer, ConfusedCartman - as far as I recall each has computer/programming skills.

2010-01-29 19:48:00 Author: Morgana25 Posts: 5983

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Yes it most certainly does. Although for me i've experienced the effect in the opposite sense. All of the logic for my previous levels was made-up by myself and although it took a long time to make and was very complicated i understood how it all worked. However, since starting an engineering degree (last october) i was able to put some of the techniques i learned in lbp into the programming and logic switch laboratories we've been doing here... it's helped me no-end!

2010-01-29 19:55:00 Author: ladylyn1 Posts: 836

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Arguably it's a mindset thing. My backgorund is largely maths, science, electronics and software so the analytical and logical thought processes are very well drummed into me. However, I tend to find that consistantly taking a direct metaphorical view between programming / electronics will actually hold you back when trying to showehorn those concepts onto a different medium. But yes, there very much is a link. I think any field where the problem solving and abstract thinking around technical issues will help no end as those are highly transferable skills. edit - which would explain ladylyn's experience posted above and why we should win the DMLC Competition, lol.

2010-01-29 19:59:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Definetely. Well, anything making you practice your logic should help. The switches and tools in LBP also resemble what I would call a "visual representation" of some basic and extremely common programming logics.

2010-01-29 20:12:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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I've been a software designer for about 25 years... and I'm not sure whether programming makes me better at LittleBigPlanet logic or if sinmply being logical makes me a better programmer.... hmmmm.... I think basic logic skills themselves are extremely useful for building LittleBigPlanet logic. Obviously using material and pistons is much different than programing code, but the basics of AND switches and OR switches are the same.

2010-01-29 20:20:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Just like artists (in the widest sense) have an advantage when it comes to the look of a level. Me? I'm no good at either so my level are the equivalent to doodles that look waaaaaaaay better in my head than they do in the eyes of everyone else. PS: In other, more positive words, my levels require the player to dive deeper into their imaginative capabilities than ever before to be truly appreciated.

2010-01-29 20:20:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193

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I'd say it's more about understanding the logic concepts themselves (Logic Gates, Truth Tables, etc) and how to apply them than it is about programming experience. I would imagine that someone who does maths or electrical circuits would have an easier time making logic in LBP just as well as someone with a programming background.

2010-01-29 20:21:00 Author: Gilgamesh Posts: 2536

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I'd say it's more about understanding the logic concepts themselves (Logic Gates, Truth Tables, etc) and how to apply them than it is about programming experience. I would imagine that someone who does maths or electrical circuits would have an easier time making logic in LBP just as well as someone with a programming background. I'd say thats about right. I think certain professions are more used to breaking down decision making into basic pieces - and this is useful for LittlebigPlanet. Afer doing a job such as programming or electrical engineering for a while instead of thinking: "Hmmm. should I drop by the liquor store on the way home?" they think: If(I need a drink AND (I don't have Rum OR I want something other than rum) AND I have some money left on the credit card) go to the liquor store.... ....which is a bit more confusing to a human, but the way logic is built.

2010-01-29 20:31:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Programming and electrical circuits experience surely helped me a lot; I'm quite logic-oriented, and I never had any problem understanding the logic in the levels - as soon as I see that there's something complex involved in a level I immediately try to reproduce it; it can become more an obsession than knowledge itself If(I need a drink AND (I don't have Rum OR I want something other than rum) AND I have some money left on the credit card) go to the liquor store....Hahahaha, that sounds too familiar

2010-01-29 20:31:00 Author: Shadowheaven Posts: 378

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Afer doing a job such as programming or electrical engineering for a while instead of thinking: "Hmmm. should I drop by the liquor store on the way home?" they think: If(I need a drink AND (I don't have Rum OR I want something other than rum) AND I have some money left on the credit card) go to the liquor store.... ....which is a bit more confusing to a human, but the way logic is built. Let me translate that into artist speak. I'm awake. *walks to liquor store with change jar* I want that, the label is pretty *buys the thing with the pretty label* ok, maybe that's just me * for the record - insert place that sells chocolate for liquor store in my world.

2010-01-29 21:08:00 Author: Morgana25 Posts: 5983

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I'd say thats about right. I think certain professions are more used to breaking down decision making into basic pieces - and this is useful for LittlebigPlanet. Afer doing a job such as programming or electrical engineering for a while instead of thinking: "Hmmm. should I drop by the liquor store on the way home?" they think: If(I need a drink AND (I don't have Rum OR I want something other than rum) AND I have some money left on the credit card) go to the liquor store.... ....which is a bit more confusing to a human, but the way logic is built. I would say that equates to a perma-switch set to always ON.

2010-01-29 21:58:00 Author: v0rtex Posts: 1878

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LOL!! ..and I would agree!

2010-01-29 22:11:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383

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Well, I can say that my small computer experience has helped me whenever I make logic. So, in this regard, I suppose a background in programming can have an effect on how well you implement logic in levels.

2010-01-29 22:49:00 Author: SLS10 Posts: 1129

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I have some basic knowledge of programming, and i (mostly) understand logic.

2010-01-29 22:51:00 Author: Deviantgeek Posts: 386

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I tend to find that I don't understand logic in the sense that I don't understand all these and, or, true and false things but I have no problems when it caomes to actually creating logic in my levels. I put this down to simply the way my mind works. I find myself very mechanically minded so instead of seeing an and switch or a permanent switch. My way of thinking starts with me saying to myself, for example, I have to make this move and that move slightly later because the player did this. Then when I'm actually working on my logic I see things along the lines of the player grabs this which makes this turn which then dissolves this ultimately making this emmitter activate. Sounds stupid I know but it's worked for me so far. At the moment I'm actually in the middle of making a top down puzzle game (type "Chips Challenge" into Google or Youtube to see what I mean) An the only piece of logic I used that I know the name of is an incremental bolt which I only found out about after I had made it.

2010-01-30 00:51:00 Author: SR20DETDOG Posts: 2431

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I am sort of a hobby programmer with a fair bit of knowledge about how various logic gates work and it makes perfect sense to me. In fact, one of the things i want to do is find a primitive device constructed out of transistors and rebuild it in LBP using LBPC Logic Pack parts!

2010-01-30 05:12:00 Author: RCIX Posts: 250

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Well, I'm only 13 and am only in Algebra, but developed a fully functional adding subtracting calculator (only adds up to 50+50, bu whadda expect?), so you don't have to have worked with computers to understand logic. But I suppose working with logic now will help me with my career dream of working with Naughty Dog.

2010-01-30 06:36:00 Author: srgt_poptart Posts: 425

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I wouldn't say I'm bad at logic but I have no progrmming skills whatsoever

2010-01-30 12:21:00 Author: Kern Posts: 5078

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I'd say it's more about understanding the logic concepts themselves (Logic Gates, Truth Tables, etc) and how to apply them than it is about programming experience. I would imagine that someone who does maths or electrical circuits would have an easier time making logic in LBP just as well as someone with a programming background. Electrotechnicians might even be at the advantage, as they actually build the logic, not merely program it. But I think it's mostly a case of people with a logic mindset naturally drifting towards computer professions.

2010-01-30 20:34:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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I don't know about programming, but I have a background in machine mechanics and basic electronics. I find that my best tools for logic are common sense, and improvisation. I do it more along the line of SR20DETDOG.

2010-01-30 22:54:00 Author: smasher Posts: 641

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I was always good with logic, but computers might as well be magic to me... for me, it was just trial and error, and practical application of whatever I'd slowly learned about logic. I was lucky enough to have started relatively early after the release of LBP, so half of what I was doing was just experimenting and learning along with everyone else - Little Big Calculator was a big, marvelous mystery, that I understood, but could never see a practical application for it's design in a level. Other than "I want this to do this" where I would come up with very interesting logic orders or designs, it wasn't unless I was really excited about a concept logic piece or trying to help someone else get their levels to do what they wanted that I would really think outside the box. I've never read any logic guides, and don't know half the names of switch types... and it'll be awhile before I can get to play the Logic Pack. For me, logic is more of a physical object, me simply playing with the physics of the game, than a mental equation that I can see working before I see it working... anything I've ever made, since I can't play right now, I think of ways it could have been compressed, or done in a more efficient or interesting way. I say it definitely probably does help immensely, but isn't required. I was always excellent at math, but forgot everything I ever learned lol

2010-01-31 17:09:00 Author: Unknown User

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I would say it definitely does but only from what I've seen here on LBPC. Most of the switch/logic guys I know are involved with computers, programming or other technical fields. Off the top of my head I can name a few that fit this description (as far as I can recall) Vortex, CCubbage, Jwwphotos, comphermc, rtm223, Mrsupercomputer, ConfusedCartman - as far as I recall each has computer/programming skills. On the contrary, I have a very limited computer programming background. I'm going to be a Math teacher, so I've only taken one semi-related course thus far. I think it more has to do with knowledge of logic outside of LBP. I think this may be where the expectation of a computer programming background would arise, but you have to remember that computer programmers are not the only people who use formal logic. I could foresee a philosopher being pretty good with LBP logic as well, but I can't be certain (don't know of any, lol). Edit: what Gilgamesh said, haha.

2010-01-31 17:17:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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Well, I can honestly say that being good at physics and calculus will NOT help you in making levels in this game. Which is strange because this is a physics game. It's like the common train problem. I.E. 'if a train 1 leaves point A at a speed of 100 m/s at 7:30 in the morning and train B leaves, blah, blah, blah' where will they meet? You can do the complicated math to solve it, or you can build it in lbp and let them crash. The latter helps you solve the problem faster AND it's fun to watch. In physics, you are given the angle and velocity of a projectile influenced by gravity and you can find it's max height, the distance it travels, how long it takes, and the final velocity at which it hits the ground. But for what purpose? I guess you can make a game that plays like the internet game 'tanks', but no one sits there and actually measures and calculates everything so they get a perfect shot every time. In calculus, you can find the exact slope of a function, the area beneath the curve, the length of the arc, and the volume of the area when it's spun around an axis. Great, now what do you do with the numbers? I chose the wrong subjects...

2010-02-02 04:40:00 Author: Unknown User

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Well, I can honestly say that being good at physics and calculus will NOT help you in making levels in this game. Which is strange because this is a physics game. It's like the common train problem. I.E. 'if a train 1 leaves point A at a speed of 100 m/s at 7:30 in the morning and train B leaves, blah, blah, blah' where will they meet? You can do the complicated math to solve it, or you can build it in lbp and let them crash. The latter helps you solve the problem faster AND it's fun to watch. In physics, you are given the angle and velocity of a projectile influenced by gravity and you can find it's max height, the distance it travels, how long it takes, and the final velocity at which it hits the ground. But for what purpose? I guess you can make a game that plays like the internet game 'tanks', but no one sits there and actually measures and calculates everything so they get a perfect shot every time. In calculus, you can find the exact slope of a function, the area beneath the curve, the length of the arc, and the volume of the area when it's spun around an axis. Great, now what do you do with the numbers? I chose the wrong subjects... What motion do wobble bolts and pistons describe? The Simple Harmonic Motion equations can be applied here and they can be very useful.

2010-02-02 08:37:00 Author: ladylyn1 Posts: 836

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What motion do wobble bolts and pistons describe? The Simple Harmonic Motion equations can be applied here and they can be very useful. Yep, absolutely. You can't directly apply all of real-world physics to LBP, because it doesn't follow the same model. But you can apply some of the stock equations to LBP and they work. You can also apply scientific methods to uncovering subtleties of the system beneath. Let us not forget that the study of science is about experimentation, observation and understanding, rather than knowledge of facts and equations. A scientific mind will undesrtand more about the game engine because they will experiment with it and draw accurate conclusions from those experiments. Arguably, building the trains and letting them crash is a crude form of science too So you have been learning from your science lessons, just no in the way you expected

2010-02-02 14:02:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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well i've been into programming for ages such as HTML C++ Ruby and AHK and im pretty good at logic so i think it definetly does help.

2010-02-02 14:11:00 Author: lbpholic Posts: 1304

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Which stock equations about simple harmonic motion are you applying to LBP? I did once notice that a piston set to ON acts like a sine wave so I put another one on the end of the first one and reversed it to make rotating motion. Although it was kinda pointless because pulling out a motor bolt required less steps. If you're talking about science in general, yeah, I find glitches and tricks all the time in this game and I guess I use the scientific method, although that's just playing around and learning instinctively. I think the scientific method for me was covered briefly in middle school, but even if it wasn't taught I think I'd be using it anyway without knowing what it was called. So I can't really say I'm learning how to experiment, observe and understand in my physics class. What I'm learning in my physics class are mainly equations and the reasoning behind why stuff happens(not even that actually, i.e. no one can explain gravity, it's more like 'stuff happens like this, learn the pattern&apos, neither of which benefit me while making levels in LBP. The trains example was kinda bad, but it was supposed to be a math example rather than science. What I was trying to say was that symbolic analysis is only good for, say, sending a rocket to the moon in one shot. But if you are able to make said rocket an infinite number of times and rewind time to before it breaks because you didn't quite tweak it properly and try again, why bother with the calculations? There are no consequences to breaking your space pilot made of sponge, it's only if you put a real person in there and you only made one rocket which cost a significant amount of capital, that you can't afford not to do the calculations.

2010-02-04 02:45:00 Author: Unknown User

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Arguably, building the trains and letting them crash is a crude form of science too So you have been learning from your science lessons, just no in the way you expected It's applied science. =)

2010-02-04 08:13:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193

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Which stock equations about simple harmonic motion are you applying to LBP? I did once notice that a piston set to ON acts like a sine wave so I put another one on the end of the first one and reversed it to make rotating motion. Although it was kinda pointless because pulling out a motor bolt required less steps. Rotating motion with two pistons? Well the principles of circular motion and simple harmonics can both be applied... Take for example some kind of lift. The position of the lift at a certain time can be calculated using the SHM equations; therefore if you wanted the lift to raise to its full height and return to a set position (perhaps a fraction of its max height) then it would be possible to do this using the equation: x=Asin(2(pi)ft+theta). Where x is displacement, A is amplitude, f is frequency, t is time and theta is phase. Obviously some rearranging would be in order. There are many other solutions to problems like this that are less accurate in theory but more accurate in game. Still i have used this technique to set lifts in my level Myst.

2010-02-04 14:30:00 Author: ladylyn1 Posts: 836

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Absolutely, I'd say as far as the logic switches go anyway. I had just finished the introductory courses to computer architecture and design when I started getting into LBP logic, and the links between the two was immediate. I mean, in computer architecture, you start off with simple gates like and / or / not gates which you use to build bigger parts, which is exactly what I find myself doing in LPB most of the time. You can even create diagrams using the same symbols and gates you would use in a computer, and many of the simple ones that I've seen at least can translate directly into a LBP logic circuit, so long as the inputs and outputs match up properly.

2010-02-06 05:44:00 Author: Duffluc Posts: 402

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Take for example some kind of lift. The position of the lift at a certain time can be calculated using the SHM equations; therefore if you wanted the lift to raise to its full height and return to a set position (perhaps a fraction of its max height) then it would be possible to do this using the equation: x=Asin(2(pi)ft+theta). Where x is displacement, A is amplitude, f is frequency, t is time and theta is phase. Obviously some rearranging would be in order. My head asplode. http://hanlonsrazor.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/headboom.jpg http://hanlonsrazor.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/headboom.jpg http://hanlonsrazor.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/headboom.jpg

2010-02-06 06:59:00 Author: v0rtex Posts: 1878

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I find its best to work backwards but then it really down to what you want to do I think alot of user over do it and best to keep any logic simple as you can

2010-02-06 07:30:00 Author: jump_button Posts: 1014

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