Archive: 35 posts

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This object showcase serves two purposes. One, to show off the new set-reset switch that I just came up with; two, to rub it in rtm's face. ***See below for an even lower thermo/better solution!*** :blush: Anyways, I have been able to make a set-reset using only two pieces of material. I had to take advantage of the fact that two opposing pistons of equal speed and strength will remain at rest (there's a bit more to it, but it works here), as well as the fact that two pistons whose sum strength exceeds 10 will overpower a strength 10 winch. For those who learn with pictures: http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/6456/aphoto46.jpg This is the default setup for the gate, which is FALSE. Notice that there is a grab switch on the DM which is attached to the top piston, strength 7. This is effectively forcing the top piston to continuously push outward. http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/2200/aphoto47.jpg This is the configuration after the left grab-switch has been activated. This is known as the "Set" portion of the Set-Reset. Notice that the green magnetic key is now giving a TRUE output. The strong winch is responsible for this action. http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3353/aphoto48.jpg This is the configuration after the right grab switch has been activated. This is known as the "Reset" portion. Notice that the output is again FALSE. The piston in the middle is responsible for this action, which is also strength 7. --- The idea here is that the two strength 7 pistons are pushing opposite of one another, and therefore remain stationary. When the winch contracts, with a strength of 10, it disturbs the balance to the two offset pistons, thereby pulling the cardboard to the left. When the piston attached to the right grab switch is activated, it inverts, thereby working with the other piston, pushing the block back to the right. When this happens, the pistons together have an effective strength of 14, thereby taking precedence over the winch (which means that the device favors the reset in the event that both inputs are triggered at once). Neat, eh? Questions... just ask. Edit: I think I may have just sorted out a way to do it without the DM grab switch.

2010-01-26 04:18:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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hm, never thought that you could add the strength of pistons and winches to make an overpowering sum

2010-01-26 04:26:00 Author: Littlebigdude805 Posts: 1924

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Turns out you don't need to. I was being silly... Here is what I deem the lowest thermo method possible: http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/3715/aphoto49.jpg I just ripped the winch and the grab switch from design and it still works. The basic idea is the same. Note, though, that because the pistons have equal and opposite strength, the block is essentially floating there - so it won't work vertically! A potential way around this is to just use pink floaty for the material, or to just keep it horizontal. My argument for the lowest thermo set-reset possible is that we need at least one moving part (check), and we need at least 2 connectors (check). I can't think of a way to do it with a single connector.

2010-01-26 04:37:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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Nice work! Dont know how much thermo you'll save by using this method but its very cool! A question: how reliable is the two piston setup? I have my doubts about it.. hmm will have to check it out later when i get home BTW: How would you construct a Toggle/Reset switch. Which would have two inputs. Input 1: toggle between TRUE and FALSE Input 2: reset to FALSE if TRUE. I've been able to construct one of these but the logic was quite chunky and i want one that is more like "one-piece".. like the one rtm talks about in his Implied logic blog.

2010-01-26 08:25:00 Author: Tamland Posts: 106

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hm, never thought that you could add the strength of pistons and winches to make an overpowering sum A question: how reliable is the two piston setup? I have my doubts about it.. hmm will have to check it out later when i get home. Exceptionally so. I've been doing experimentation with summation of forces on piston/winch combinations for months. Never encountered any issues. Note that the device in the second post is a stripped down version of my sackperson tracker from the logic pack (which similarly works on a principle of summation of forces) it simply has the breaking piston removed as you don't need to stop it in a middle position. @littleBigDude, I cover a fair amount of this summation of forces stuff in my Logic Blog and the Logic Pack also has a few examples of such techniques. edit- actually, you can occasionally get creeping motions with 0-strength pistons (which is what this becomes at rest) when they get jammed at the end of their motion. Though I think that is more and issue when used with winches. I'll have to try and remember what causes that effect. Funny, as soon as I saw your OP, I was going to post the solution you came to in the end. Great minds eh? Actually I did also think you were gonna post that abomination you sent me the other day! You should probably post that, with a big disclaimer and preferably a video to show how wrong it is. As for lowest thermo.... well I'm not convinced you're saving anything overall vs the one in the logic pack, and the OP is actually distinctly higher thermo than various other designs. But I'll let you off, seeing as you redeemed yourself while I was asleep edit- though in context of a network, the one in your second post will probs actually turn out to be best, now I think about it. edit-edit: bah, I need to stop posting before coffee. The two pistons method is indeed the lowest thermo going, I uh, imagined an extra component that doesn't exist, is why I got confused. It can't do vertical motion or be attached to a moving object, but I do believe I'll be adding this one to my list of techniques...

2010-01-26 09:47:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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How would you construct a Toggle/Reset switch. Which would have two inputs. Input 1: toggle between TRUE and FALSE Input 2: reset to FALSE if TRUE. I've been able to construct one of these but the logic was quite chunky and i want one that is more like "one-piece".. like the one rtm talks about in his Implied logic blog. Have I shown you the flipper based toggle? It can be modified with an extra winch to force a reset if desired. I will get on that later today and post a picture. Now, my next task is to figure out how rtm made that 'single moving part' toggle... Actually I did also think you were gonna post that abomination you sent me the other day! You should probably post that, with a big disclaimer and preferably a video to show how wrong it is. Wait, which thing? The set-reset that just flops around? Haha, I love that thing! You don't like it...?

2010-01-26 12:39:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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Have I shown you the flipper based toggle? It can be modified with an extra winch to force a reset if desired. I will get on that later today and post a picture. Now, my next task is to figure out how rtm made that 'single moving part' toggle... No you haven't! don't keep these cool stuff from me Isn't the emitter toggle a "single moving part" toggle? since it emits a dm... Probably not but technically it is

2010-01-26 12:50:00 Author: Tamland Posts: 106

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I consider anything emitted to be moving (moving into existence from nothingness???). No, but he did it with winches and pistons and a single piece of DM. I'm not sure, but the flipper one may be lower thermo anyways...

2010-01-26 14:49:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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I consider anything emitted to be moving (moving into existence from nothingness???). LOL.. yeah i figured out that you didnt mean an emitting toggle.. just had to put it out there

2010-01-26 14:59:00 Author: Tamland Posts: 106

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I consider anything emitted to be moving (moving into existence from nothingness???). You might do, but the thermo doesn't. And whose opinion do you think I care more about? Hmmm? No, but he did it with winches and pistons and a single piece of DM. I'm not sure, but the flipper one may be lower thermo anyways... I think the two are almost identical individually, but the emitter one has the issue of not playing nicely with implied logic (http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/entry.php?881-Waste-Not-Want-Not-Part-3), at least, not until after the first emission. Anyways, I sent you that toggle ages ago, is just flipper winches. It's a scary switch that one

2010-01-26 15:05:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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But with this solution the reset input doesn't have a priority over the set - what I'm trying to say is that if both inputs are 1 nothing happens

2010-01-26 15:34:00 Author: Shadowheaven Posts: 378

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I can make it go lower. Delete one corner from each rectangle you have because the shape with the lowest thermo is a triangle. (o^_^)b

2010-01-26 15:41:00 Author: Unknown User

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But with this solution the reset input doesn't have a priority over the set - what I'm trying to say is that if both inputs are 1 nothing happens Good point there, this could very well be a consideration. Honestly though, I normally find that the specifics of the inputs mean that it's rarely an issue. At least this is predictable - whichever input was previously activated will take precedence. I can make it go lower. Delete one corner from each rectangle you have because the shape with the lowest thermo is a triangle. (o^_^)b I've had the thermo overheat by deleting veteces from rectangles, so I'm highly dubious about that The complex shapes thermo is still very much a mystery!

2010-01-26 15:48:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Nice. It would be an almost unnoticable smidge lower thermo if you used dissolve for the cardboard piece too... DM is a requisite material, and if a grab is present, it might as well be dissolve, and chances are everything in the logic for a level will be dissolve too, so 1 less material used will make it lower thermo when put into use... but obviously the thing is fantastic anyway, and anybody using it for advanced purposes would just change the material if they were trying to milk their thermo to the last possible drop.

2010-01-26 16:24:00 Author: Unknown User

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BTW: How would you construct a Toggle/Reset switch. Which would have two inputs. Input 1: toggle between TRUE and FALSE Input 2: reset to FALSE if TRUE. Like this: http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/6752/aphoto51.jpg http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/9506/aphoto52.jpg As promised, it has a one-shot toggle element, but a forced reset triggered by a second input (the right grab switch). The idea here is an exploit of the minimum latency of switches, at .05 seconds. The flipper piston (the one on the top), plays "hand-off" with the other block. Try it out, it's quite tricky. Actually I did also think you were gonna post that abomination you sent me the other day! You should probably post that, with a big disclaimer and preferably a video to show how wrong it is. You mean, this? http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/5773/aphoto53.jpg http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/7348/aphoto54r.jpg Yeah, I made some modifications and it is no longer all over the place. It actually works very well, and is just as low on the thermo as the above solution. Advantage: you can have one winch again take precedence over the other. The drawback? Reliability may be a concern, but the new design appears rock solid. I know... "It's not griddy enough." But with this solution the reset input doesn't have a priority over the set - what I'm trying to say is that if both inputs are 1 nothing happens By adding an additional winch, of course. Remember +1 winch < +1 material block, so it's still an improvement. Like so: http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/8206/aphoto50.jpg Now the additional winch works with the piston that pulls to the left, but doesn't affect the way it functions otherwise. I even made the block dissolve to appease Ninja, even though the benefits are likely minimal (see Thermo Guide, heading Materials).

2010-01-26 17:12:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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So... let me get this straight... a switch on a flipper piston set to 0,1 sec ignores everything while flipping, but not while going back into place? Basically like if it teleported?

2010-01-26 18:11:00 Author: Shadowheaven Posts: 378

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Um... sorta? The idea is that when the it flips out, the other piston extends... While it is extending, the flipper one starts contracting again. Since they are moving quickly opposite of one another, they move too quickly for the switch to register. This is because the game only "refreshes" every .05 seconds.

2010-01-26 18:18:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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It looks cool... But does it play Minesweeper?

2010-01-26 18:23:00 Author: Kern Posts: 5078

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It looks cool... But does it play Minesweeper? Only on Beginner. Intermediate and Expert coming soon.

2010-01-26 18:26:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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Actually I did also think you were gonna post that abomination you sent me the other day! You should probably post that, with a big disclaimer and preferably a video to show how wrong it is.You mean, this? http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/5773/aphoto53.jpg http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/7348/aphoto54r.jpg Honestly, if you'd sent me that, I wouldn't have gone with abomination! Honestly, if it were glass, I'd say that it would be perfectly stable. It isn't griddy enough, but I'm sure we can live with that By adding an additional winch, of course. Remember +1 winch < +1 material block, so it's still an improvement. Like Don't you just love it when the anwser involves a winch? Although, I have no idea what the bolded part is supposed to mean. You're basically up to the same component count as the piston-supported SR here (one piece of DM off), and lose the imagined stability of a feedback loop. Is a neat little design though, no doubt about it.

2010-01-26 18:35:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Not sure why glass would make it so much better, but OKAY! Although, I have no idea what the bolded part is supposed to mean. In my eyes, and due to the research from the Thermo Guide, adding a connector is more desirable than adding a piece of material. Generally speaking, you'd be hard pressed to push the limits of the 'Connectors' Thermo, correct? Hence, my notation was supposed to say that adding a winch is still better than adding a piece of material. Not sure I totally understand your 'feedback loop' ramblings. Mind clarifying for us simple folk?

2010-01-26 20:45:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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Generally speaking, you'd be hard pressed to push the limits of the 'Connectors' Thermo, correct? Well that is true, but you forget that connectors also contribute to collected objects, along with all of your other logic, lighting, sounds, points.... That one is not so hard to blow and it's easier to lose a piece of dark matter from elsewhere than lose a functional component IMO. At the end of the day, increasing one type of thermo in order to reduce another can only be considered desirable if the requirements of the level are known. Not sure I totally understand your 'feedback loop' ramblings. Mind clarifying for us simple folk? In the SRs I use the output can, if desired, be fed back into the piston so that the block is never loose.

2010-01-26 21:06:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Like this: http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/6752/aphoto51.jpg http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/9506/aphoto52.jpg As promised, it has a one-shot toggle element, but a forced reset triggered by a second input (the right grab switch). The idea here is an exploit of the minimum latency of switches, at .05 seconds. The flipper piston (the one on the top), plays "hand-off" with the other block. Try it out, it's quite tricky. Hmm.. that is sneaky!! Just tried it out, and it worked perfectly!! Though I modified it a little.. since im using a shared input for the Reset i just have a block that pushes all the keys down when activated.. really simple to use! Thanks again! Now i really wanna show you what I'm working on!

2010-01-26 21:59:00 Author: Tamland Posts: 106

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Thought i'd post about another SR switch for those interested; the Toggle Switch thingy from the (intermediate was it?) Logic Pack. If instead of hooking one switch up to both pistons, you hook two switches up to the left and right pistons then you get SR behavior. Not the lowest thermo one, but the only one i know of which will toggle the value if both inputs are activated!

2010-01-27 08:56:00 Author: RCIX Posts: 250

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Thought i'd post about another SR switch for those interested; the Toggle Switch thingy from the (intermediate was it?) Logic Pack. If instead of hooking one switch up to both pistons, you hook two switches up to the left and right pistons then you get SR behavior. Not the lowest thermo one, but the only one i know of which will toggle the value if both inputs are activated! On the contrary, it's the only one from the set that could break if you hit one input and then the other. The opposite piston could hit the block at its full extension, thereby trapping the block in the middle. The one I posted as a response to Shadowheaven will favor one input over the other in the event that both are pressed at once.

2010-01-27 13:00:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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Hey compher... I made a set reset that only involved a sack person, gravity and a grabby. Does that count? LOL!!

2010-01-27 13:11:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383

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Hey compher... I made a set reset that only involved a sack person, gravity and a grabby. Does that count? LOL!! Um.... I'm not sure?

2010-01-27 13:25:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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Um.... I'm not sure? LOL!! ..well it was a bit of a fancy grabby. Prolly not!

2010-01-27 18:54:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383

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Ta-da! Improved version: when both inputs are 1 the SET has priority over RESET (it can be invert easily, anyway): http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/153/setreset.gif settings: winch (RESET input): min 10 max 15 strenght 10 piston (SET input): min 5 max 15 strenght 7 inverted, stiff The device is hysteresis-based, so if you don't get how this works, ask away It's called hysteresis and essentially the line at which you switch is not a line but in fact a zone. Say for example you wanted the switching point to be at 50 units. What you may find is that as you move the magnetic key inwards, the switch doesn't switch on until it's at 48. Then on the way out it won't switch off until the key is at around 52. It's to prevent jitter at the point at which it switching occurs.

2010-02-17 17:45:00 Author: Shadowheaven Posts: 378

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Niiiiiice. Of course, the problem with devices like this is that they don't have a position associated with each of the states that they are in, which means that they won't play nice with any kind of implied logic techniques and it's quite hard (sometimes) to get a hysteresis-based device even sharing mag keys without some major faffing around, so the device will quite often have to exist as a single device on its own, which may well actually waste thermo. But still... Niiiiiice

2010-02-17 17:50:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Genius! Very creative! (and no springs!)

2010-02-17 18:16:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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Very cool!! I kinda like my set-reset.. but this is just genius!

2010-02-18 13:44:00 Author: Tamland Posts: 106

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Hey, I'm a little confused on what this switch does. Is it like a permanent switch, except with a way to reset it? when you grab the left grab switch it pulls the Mag switch towards the key correct? Does it hold it there? Hahaha, just a little confused by the wording somehow.

2010-02-18 15:49:00 Author: SupaSack34 Posts: 180

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In many ways yes. Think of it a little like the two way lever switch. If you pull it to the on position, it turns on and stays on. If you pull it to the off position it turns off and stays off. The set reset just takes two signals, one to turn it on (set) and one to turn it off (reset). If neither of these signals are on then it just stays as it is. It's useful in this respect as it has a kind of memory, which makes it a very powerful tool. The examples here are a little harder to understand, so you'd be better off checking the example in the intermediate (is it intermediate? I really should know this) logic pack level. search @logicpack in game or click the logic pack tab up the top of the page

2010-02-18 15:58:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Yep, it's the first room in the intermediate pack. Edit: @rtm - for the purposes of most creators (myself sometimes included) implied logic is beyond the scope of caring, so this set-reset is fantastic. And, in fact, it can share keys if you put the switch on the moving part, yes? The only downside I see is that you may often want multiple inputs to handle a set or reset. I can see this being confusing to work out, but not impossible. I can see how it wouldn't work for some things, but more options is great any way you hack it.

2010-02-18 16:24:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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