Archive: 37 posts

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Hello all! I have another half level for anyone out there who may be interested in logic or lockboxes or things of this sort. Let me be clear, this is not a gameplay level, rather it goes over a few basic things about winch based logic and then jumps into teaching the player how to use the Ordered Input Device that I give away in the copyable level. This concept was initially conceived by rtm223, so he deserves a big thanks for that. I took his design, modified it to my liking, making it hopefully easier to customize, and I cut down on moving parts (it uses 2 of them). For anyone who is unfamiliar with the idea, an Ordered Input Device (or Tool, as rtm called it) is a bit of logic which recognizes whether or not a player has performed a series of actions in the correct order. In the context of how it is showcased in this level, it determines if the player has grabbed a set of colored grab switches in the correct sequence. There are many designs out there for such a device, but I believe this one is superior for a number of reasons: It is completely flexible in the number of inputs it takes or the length of the code. It can recognize the same grab switch triggered multiple times in a row. An incorrect entry will reset the device back to its default state. Make a mistake? No worries. Is very low thermo, utilizing only two moving parts. Now, the uses for this device are many, but most people are interested in using it for lockboxes and key rooms. That said, the creative mind can see its potential uses for puzzles within a level or for minigames/survival challenges. I know this type of thing won't appeal to everyone, and that's okay. I didn't make this for you! I would normally have just posted this in the Object Showcase, but I wanted to go above-and-beyond for this level, and spent a ton of time working with the visuals. I would love it if you guys took a look at it. Here are some pictures to whet your appetite... http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/4811/aphoto38.jpg http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/4634/aphoto39.jpg http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/2276/aphoto40.jpg http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/1379/aphoto41.jpg http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/2650/aphoto42.jpg http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/4900/aphoto43.jpg http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/926/aphoto44.jpg Cheers, Comph

2010-01-17 17:55:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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You guy are starting to release sick things! Thanks!

2010-01-17 18:26:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112

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Thanks, Omega! I figure that if it's worth doing, it's worth over-doing...

2010-01-17 18:40:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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Well it's guaranteed to melt my brain and it's purple how can I resist

2010-01-17 18:43:00 Author: Morgana25 Posts: 5983

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Aw, but Zwollie told me that you actually hate purple... and this has all been an elaborate ruse. The jig is up, Morgana! Just admit it... you like pink better!

2010-01-17 18:46:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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eeeek! Never! I actually loathe pink

2010-01-17 18:52:00 Author: Morgana25 Posts: 5983

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I used Rtm's version in my newest level for a combination lock puzzle. I like your simplified version, it looks like it's a lot easier to add or delete inputs - nicely done!

2010-01-17 20:44:00 Author: Powershifter Posts: 668

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I used Rtm's version in my newest level for a combination lock puzzle. I like your simplified version, it looks like it's a lot easier to add or delete inputs - nicely done! Isn't it exactly the same process to add or delete inputs? At least, if it's the version I think it is then it should be the same. I see two distinct "issues" here. 1. You have no external reset trigger - Not exactly a biggy and of course you could use a dummy input, but that's a little overkill. 2. Ummmm, well... http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/rtm223/APhoto_1-7.jpg Sorry mate You should have expected this really though, especially after giving me prior notice.

2010-01-17 21:27:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/rtm223/APhoto_1-7.jpg Sorry mate You should have expected this really though, especially after giving me prior notice. What you put it in the thin layer? That's your big comeback? I will send you the thin layer version. --- And yeah, I'm not sure why you need an external reset. Any wrong input would do that for you, would it now?

2010-01-17 21:47:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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The further reduction on thermo is my big comeback. Do a quick component count and you'll see. I've got one more winch than you but 2 less grab switches, 2 less mag switches, 1 less mag key, 1 less emitter. As for the external reset, having a dedicated winch for that is more efficient than an extra dummy input. Typical useage would be "reset on death" within a puzzle. It was part of what ungreth was looking for when I first designed this.

2010-01-17 22:01:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Well I would like to see this in an actual application too.

2010-01-17 22:24:00 Author: tanrockstan34 Posts: 1076

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Ah, I gotcha. Well, to be honest, I wasn't going for the lowest thermo, I was going for ease of use by someone who doesn't know logic very well. I hope I at least was successful in that regard. Also, one of my grabby switches was left there accidentally. I only needed the On/Off one. Edit: rtm isn't mad - it's just some friendly competition. He doesn't like to be second best.

2010-01-17 22:25:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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Ah, I gotcha. Well, to be honest, I wasn't going for the lowest thermo, I was going for ease of use by someone who doesn't know logic very well. I hope I at least was successful in that regard. Also, one of my grabby switches was left there accidentally. I only needed the On/Off one. Edit: rtm isn't mad - it's just some friendly competition. He doesn't like to be second best. Heh, I will edit my post then. You have a point too, it does look easier to use then yours rtm, the color coding is a nice touch. I mean for me it would probably be just as easy to use either but I know my simple logic. They both have there strong and weak points, it just depends what you are looking for.

2010-01-17 22:29:00 Author: tanrockstan34 Posts: 1076

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Cool! How does it work?

2010-01-17 23:03:00 Author: Tamland Posts: 106

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I'm not in the slightest bit mad, when comphermc comes in and improves upon my designs it's just an excuse for me to up my game, everyone wins out of the iterative design process. And I have a reputation to hold onto (and seemingly these days my grasp on it is getting weaker and weaker They both have there strong and weak points, it just depends what you are looking for. I'm not seeing where my device has a weakness. The process to customise is identical between the two. The different coloured stickered blocks are all functionally the same, so it won't make a jot of difference - you still have to wire the inputs in the correct order to get it to work. Obviously, the tutorial itself is great, and the colour coding is a nice touch (god knows I wish I'd done that in my lockbox, I don't know what half the codes are myself anymore!) and a very useful teaching aid. Also the device on display here is indeed easier to use than my original design (with improved thermo too), but it is identical to use as my new design which has the reduced thermo.

2010-01-17 23:17:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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I'm not seeing where my device has a weakness. The process to customise is identical between the two. The different coloured stickered blocks are all functionally the same, so it won't make a jot of difference - you still have to wire the inputs in the correct order to get it to work. I am just saying that Comp's may be easier to use to people that are not good with logic like others. That may be the weak point in yours, nothing much but its something that could be improved. Yours does have a strong point because it can reset itself when you die, etc. To my knowledge Comp's doesn't do that so there is something that is better.

2010-01-17 23:39:00 Author: tanrockstan34 Posts: 1076

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Cool! How does it work? The level explains pretty well how it works, I think. You are free to dismantle it as well.

2010-01-17 23:58:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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This is definitely excellent work! I had a similar idea for an Ordered Input Tool, but it worked slightly differently (from what I could tell). I'm sure yours is more reliable because mine was made rather hastily. I'll definitely be dismantling this to look deeper when I have the time.

2010-01-18 00:04:00 Author: iGotFancyPants Posts: 1355

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Well I checked it out and it does make an impression. I think I get how it works. Now the question is how can I use it for my stuff besides lock levels. You've given me stuff to think about for sure. (Purple looks great btw and yes, I want the purple companion cube!)

2010-01-18 00:48:00 Author: Morgana25 Posts: 5983

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Basically, Morgana, you can use it for anything that requires the player to do something in a certain order. I'm not sure what else you can use it for either.

2010-01-18 01:23:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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, I want the purple companion cube!) I saw that pretty cube in a prize bubble.

2010-01-18 02:02:00 Author: tanrockstan34 Posts: 1076

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I saw that pretty cube in a prize bubble. Also, the level is copyable...

2010-01-18 02:36:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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After hearing rtm and comphy, I have halfed my neurons, thus making me even more thermo friendly, so I won.

2010-01-18 10:36:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112

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Ohh ok.. Haven't had the time to play it yet will check it out when I get some time off work... Gahh frickin hectic week btw: this reminded me, we didn't have our playdate I'm currently workin on a memory/interface thingy.. Will show you later!

2010-01-18 20:01:00 Author: Tamland Posts: 106

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I found a problem with ths device: if the correct input is, for example "1-2-3-4" and you enter "1-2-1-2-3-4", it doesn't work because it registers the second "1" as a reset key, ignoring it in the entered sequence; I found an easy solution to this: you simply have to increase the duration of the emitted key for the first emitter of the sequence (circled in the image, I'm not good with words - if there's something that's not clear, sk away) to 0,3 seconds - this way, the sequence in the previous example will be registered as correct. I also tried increasing the number of required inputs, but it still works greatly with 0,3 secs. http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2650/aphoto42.jpg Edit: also, another thing that jumped on my mind: Isn't it better to use keys on pistons set to flipper instead of using emitters (thermo-wise speaking)?

2010-01-29 00:18:00 Author: Shadowheaven Posts: 378

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That has always been an issue with basic principle of the device, and one of the reasons why an external reset is very useful. I do like your solution though, esp how it still allows for duplicate entries and adds no more complexity As for flippers vs emitters, no. Last I checked they are equivalent in terms of "collected objects" and "objects and shapes", but the emitter adds to the "emitters" and the piston adds to "connectors" and "moving objects" thermos. All in all the reduction in moving object thermos is a bonus for the emitter, unless your level has very specific requirements for emitters.

2010-01-29 00:44:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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I'm glad I was helpful - I want you to know that the idea came to my mind in the moment I got in the bed Well, I'll mess with it more tomorrow

2010-01-29 01:31:00 Author: Shadowheaven Posts: 378

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Cool! I made a very very very complex one of these for MYST and im sure Powershifter will back me up when I say that I kinda over did it! This looks a lot more thermo friendly... i'll have to incorporate it into Myst and see what I can do with some extra thermo space! Thanks.

2010-01-29 13:58:00 Author: ladylyn1 Posts: 836

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any chance of changing the music in this level as I can copy it I just can't edit it due to not owning that music pack that is owned. Seems a shame that some people (like me) won't be able to use such a great device

2010-01-29 14:05:00 Author: cthulhu82 Posts: 211

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I found a problem with ths device: if the correct input is, for example "1-2-3-4" and you enter "1-2-1-2-3-4", it doesn't work because it registers the second "1" as a reset key, ignoring it in the entered sequence; I found an easy solution to this: you simply have to increase the duration of the emitted key for the first emitter of the sequence (circled in the image, I'm not good with words - if there's something that's not clear, sk away) to 0,3 seconds - this way, the sequence in the previous example will be registered as correct. I also tried increasing the number of required inputs, but it still works greatly with 0,3 secs. http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2650/aphoto42.jpg Edit: also, another thing that jumped on my mind: Isn't it better to use keys on pistons set to flipper instead of using emitters (thermo-wise speaking)? Pretty nice solution! What I thought of when you showed me, and what I still think is true, is that this increases the time it takes for the device to move onto the next selection. Movement is triggered by an inverted switch, so it only goes when all of the keys disappear. By making the first one .3 seconds, it means that it delays the whole thing by .2 seconds each time. That said, .3 seconds is still very short. Edit: @ cthulhu82 - I suppose I can change the music. I do give the object away as a prize bubble, and the pieces are left free-moving so you can move them about as desired. ...the music is so cool, though!

2010-01-29 14:07:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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Edit: @ cthulhu82 - I suppose I can change the music. I do give the object away as a prize bubble, and the pieces are left free-moving so you can move them about as desired. ...the music is so cool, though! Don't worry I have it now. Strange thing was I had to play it twice because for some strange reason i never got the prize bubble the first time. I even checked on a blank level in create mode to see if I had it and...no. Went in and played it again and this time I do. So all is good tho being able to just edit the level will also be nice because all I see are bright coloured stuff with no idea how to actually use it, such as how to shrink it to use only 3 inputs or where to add my switches

2010-01-29 14:16:00 Author: cthulhu82 Posts: 211

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Pretty nice solution! What I thought of when you showed me, and what I still think is true, is that this increases the time it takes for the device to move onto the next selection. Movement is triggered by an inverted switch, so it only goes when all of the keys disappear. By making the first one .3 seconds, it means that it delays the whole thing by .2 seconds each time. That said, .3 seconds is still very short. Hehe, I found a solution for that, too - you just need to change the wiring as follows: http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/6289/unafotox.jpg Also, with this setup you don't need to initialize the device - you only need to be sure that the "cursor" is on the far right

2010-01-29 15:54:00 Author: Shadowheaven Posts: 378

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Is this a hybrid of my old design (flippers on the left) and comphermc's updated design? Or is it a respin of your own? I can't be arsed with deconstructing other's logic systems from images, so you have to tell me

2010-01-29 16:07:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Well I would like to see this in an actual application too. Easy enough Read below: I used Rtm's version in my newest level [see signature] for a combination lock puzzle. Cool! I made a very very very complex one of these for MYST and im sure Powershifter will back me up when I say that I kinda over did it! This looks a lot more thermo friendly... i'll have to incorporate it into Myst and see what I can do with some extra thermo space! Thanks. It was so complex that I had to laugh Ladylyn - I'd be interested to know just how much thermo you save by using the ordered input tool. Pretty nice solution! What I thought of when you showed me, and what I still think is true, is that this increases the time it takes for the device to move onto the next selection. Movement is triggered by an inverted switch, so it only goes when all of the keys disappear. By making the first one .3 seconds, it means that it delays the whole thing by .2 seconds each time. That said, .3 seconds is still very short. I see this as only being a problem when the ordered input solution is not given directly. Although it's nice to know, as a creator, if you intend for the player to figure it out, rather than giving them the answer.

2010-01-29 16:14:00 Author: Powershifter Posts: 668

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I guess an hybrid is the nearest definition - the emitted dark matter that blocks the "cursor" has a magnetic key on it, so that when it gets emitted on the right of the blue mag switch it locks the system, I don't know if you used the same method; I'll put it in a bubble and give you the code for my lock room. Edit: It is now in my lock room, code is 95430218, you have to enter it with stickers. A side note: sometimes (maybe because of the latency, I can't say for sure) the cursor shifts about 1 grid square - it doesn't cause malfuncioning, since dark matter can overlap, but did I do something wrong or is a common issue? Edit2: It was the piston - I increased its speed, and now it works perfectly. - I updated it in the vault.

2010-01-29 16:16:00 Author: Shadowheaven Posts: 378

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Hello all! I have another half level for anyone out there who may be interested in logic or lockboxes or things of this sort. Let me be clear, this is not a gameplay level, rather it goes over a few basic things about winch based logic and then jumps into teaching the player how to use the Ordered Input Device that I give away in the copyable level. This concept was initially conceived by rtm223, so he deserves a big thanks for that. I took his design, modified it to my liking, making it hopefully easier to customize, and I cut down on moving parts (it uses 2 of them). For anyone who is unfamiliar with the idea, an Ordered Input Device (or Tool, as rtm called it) is a bit of logic which recognizes whether or not a player has performed a series of actions in the correct order. In the context of how it is showcased in this level, it determines if the player has grabbed a set of colored grab switches in the correct sequence. There are many designs out there for such a device, but I believe this one is superior for a number of reasons: It is completely flexible in the number of inputs it takes or the length of the code. It can recognize the same grab switch triggered multiple times in a row. An incorrect entry will reset the device back to its default state. Make a mistake? No worries. Is very low thermo, utilizing only two moving parts. Now, the uses for this device are many, but most people are interested in using it for lockboxes and key rooms. That said, the creative mind can see its potential uses for puzzles within a level or for minigames/survival challenges. I know this type of thing won't appeal to everyone, and that's okay. I didn't make this for you! I would normally have just posted this in the Object Showcase, but I wanted to go above-and-beyond for this level, and spent a ton of time working with the visuals. I would love it if you guys took a look at it. Here are some pictures to whet your appetite... http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/4811/aphoto38.jpg http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/4634/aphoto39.jpg http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/2276/aphoto40.jpg http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/1379/aphoto41.jpg http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/2650/aphoto42.jpg http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/4900/aphoto43.jpg http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/926/aphoto44.jpg Cheers, Comph Are you continuing the logic pack?

2010-01-30 00:32:00 Author: Emogotsaone Posts: 1030

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awesome, I used this in my Locklevel and the code is impossible to guess!!!

2010-11-29 19:43:00 Author: Unknown User

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