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#1

Anyone Else think that Water is making the Community Pages even worse?

Archive: 75 posts

Because it obviously is. Simply putting (Water) in your level title is even more contagious than "Bomb Survival"

It's scary looking around cool pages right now...


Not to mention what it's doing for people trying to publish good levels WITHOUT water right now. Pssh... those are old news. Get with the times people! WAtEr iz tHe ****nIt!!/??!?!!?11!1one		2009-12-31 00:31:00

Author:
ApellesJr
Posts: 282

Yeah I agree totally.

It's absolutely horrendous. We knew it was going to happen but it doesn't make it any easier to bear. Something has to be done about this whole "cool levels" fiasco because it simply isn't "cool" at all.

Even worse is that I naively thought at least it would get rid of all the useless bomb survival trash out there but unfortunately they've just made 'bomb survival with water' levels instead.

There needs to be some sort of 'filter' system which automatically puts any level with that in the title on a special page in a galaxy far far away.		2009-12-31 01:55:00

Author:
mistervista
Posts: 2210

It was better back in the Beta when it was never updated. At least there were quality levels. Now it's just: "ZOMG REAL WATER YEAH!"

Seriously, I know that YouTube is full of crap, but at least the front page isn't full of people going "Video where I fart: WITH ANNOTATIONS!".

MM, fix the Cool Levels already. We're all fed up with this broken ing system. So you're telling me that you can't get levels yourself to showcase? Or even easier, get certified players to go find levels for Cool Levels?

Great, you gave us a "Highest Rated" search option which allows us to see the greatest Objects levels and Water Gimmick levels. Nice ing job. Why does the community do this ? Why are people so :kz:ing stupid?

EDIT: I replaced all the swears with smiley faces.		2009-12-31 02:04:00

Author:
qrtda235566
Posts: 3664

Yes, I put WITH WATER in my Bounding Bluffs level, and had an arrow pointing to some blue gas saying "WATER".

Then comes the "press this button for water" that just floods the whole level, and makes the level UNCOMPLETABLE.
TAKE THAT, SUCKERS!		2009-12-31 02:22:00

Author:
chezhead
Posts: 1063

even worse however...i see some awfully interesting blue when i change how many layers in LBP PSP...almost looks like they were experimenting with water in LBP PSP...and it might come in an add on pack...seriously! get off the ground a bit in create(about as tall as the 7th grid square) and you will see an aqua-ish blue when sorting thru the layers...under the bottom of the level...water level anyone? i remember someone saying that after the update on regular lbp all levels had some water...you just couldn't see it...and if what i see is water...that would make sense O_O

i could just be hallucinating...what do you guys think???		2009-12-31 02:27:00

Author:
theswweet
Posts: 2468

The Cool Pages have always been filled with garbage levels, every once in awhile there will be a few great levels that hit the front page but that doesn't happen too often. Honestly, before Water was released I knew it would have a great impact on the Cool Levels, but never did I imagine it would impact them the way it has. 99% of the levels that are currently there now contain water and most of those have "Water" in the title.

And top of that, more authors continue to Completely republish their old levels for the attention, further blocking other newer levels from reaching the top.

But it doesn't have to be this way, MM could fix this if they wanted to. A simple solution for keeping Bomb/Racing levels away from the Cool Levels would be to not count replays in order to progress up the pages, it's a very simple change which could have a positive impact.		2009-12-31 02:29:00

Author:
TheFirstAvenger
Posts: 787

Yeah, it's gotten so horrible that I don't even use the Cool Pages anymore. Here lately, I've been finding the good levels on "Newest" Pages.

I just feel so bad for the good creators trying to get their level out there and noticed underneath all the rotting garbage that's been piling up. : Hopefully there will be some action taken to prevent all this nonsense and get more people back into creating good levels again. 		2009-12-31 02:39:00

Author:
GreyMRP
Posts: 588

How can they tell if its a bomb survival? The name can be Flubbergarsh and be a bomb survival, and then a level called The Bomb is an actual level. They would have to go into the cool levels and move then back down which is time consuming.2009-12-31 02:39:00

Author:
darth621
Posts: 43

Remove Cool Levels Page for Newest Levels Page2009-12-31 04:45:00

Author:
FreeFlyzz
Posts: 265

I say they have MM employee's newest hearted levels be the "cool pages".2009-12-31 05:37:00

Author:
chezhead
Posts: 1063

Well, we all knew right after water was released everyone was going to try to build quick water levels. Hopefully in the next few weeks the non-creators will figure out that ANYONE can throw water in their level... then the shine will wear off.

I don't think water itself will have the staying power of bomb survival levels, because water doesn't have the fast frenetic addicting play as bomb survival levels... and the excitement of water wears off quickly. I'm not saying a well-built level with water won't continue to do well, por that water itself isn't a good play mechanic.... but I think the excitement of water simply being in a level will wear off soon enough.

In the meantime..... I've been trying to figure out how to fit water into my Lunar Lander level.... hmmmm.... water on the moon?		2009-12-31 06:10:00

Author:
CCubbage
Posts: 4430

Exactly.

People, let the things settle down. It's barely a week that water is out common. When there's something new, people release all sort of bullcrap using it. You knew water would be the new gimmick.

You people weren't there last year after the paintinator came out. It took a good 2-3 months for the cool level pages to settle down a bit. So be prepared for the same for water.

.		2009-12-31 07:50:00

Author:
RangerZero
Posts: 3901

You people weren't there last year after the paintinator came out. It took a good 2-3 months for the cool level pages to settle down a bit. So be prepared for the same for water.

.

Well I wasn't actually around then, but I remember when actually got my PS3 online (March time), there was an abundance of MGS levels. Not even just painenator / shooter levels - levels that were MGS "tributes", so that was a good 3 months after the pack came out. It's been a week, people, these things take time. Water isn't to blame for this and TBH, whilst it's annoying having this scenario, the alternative is MM stop releasing new features. At the end of the day, cool pages sucks - it just sucks in a different way now. As for using MM's lists as cool pages.... that would be awful - just look at how narrow the selection was when MM chose nominees for the sackies. It would make cool pages unattainable for 99.9% of creators.

An improved search function could filter out the levels with "water" in the title, but then you'd miss out on any good levels with water in too!		2009-12-31 08:46:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

just keep away from any level that brag about having water like I been doing2009-12-31 08:46:00

Author:
jump_button
Posts: 1014

How much do you think they follow these forums? They must be aware of how badly their system is working right? I mean, you could easily find someone complaining about it on lbpc in any given thread...

I'm really honestly surprised something isn't being done...		2009-12-31 09:23:00

Author:
ApellesJr
Posts: 282

I agree, those stupid levels are driving me insane.
And those lazy authors get thousands of hearts for doing nothing but fling some water and a few blocks of wood in a level. And what do I get for my levels where I've been working months on? Nothing but 5 plays and 2 stars. Woopde*******ingdoo.		2009-12-31 09:58:00

Author:
Recurracy
Posts: 166

its an annoyance we will have to deal with, alot of LBP players are too simple minded to realize for 5 pound they can gave water themselves. its not their fault, people bragging i have water is always going to happen. some people are just cleverer than others and dont brag about stuff like that. I have all the level packs, i haven't got a level published though with any DLC in it because i dont like to post or play for that matter ZOMG IZ GUTZ DLCCCCCCCCCZZZZZZZZZZZZ2009-12-31 10:08:00

Author:
robotiod
Posts: 2662

How much do you think they follow these forums? They must be aware of how badly their system is working right? I mean, you could easily find someone complaining about it on lbpc in any given thread...

I'm really honestly surprised something isn't being done...

I think care ALOT MORE about this game than Media Molecule or Sony. Believe me. LBP is going well ove their expectations and not only sales wise.

But don't get me wrong, I DO hope they see what's broken in their game (basically the whole community side and its interface). But this isn't something easy to fix. They made tweaks in the past and they probably will continue to do so.

Next step to help the cool pages should be the following:

1-Adding a "difficulty" and "genre" fields in the description of levels. (with choices of answers and mandatory to fill them).

2-Adding those criteria in the search.

3-Having the Cool Level Pages customisable. Let's say I want my Cool pages to be "hard platformer levels" by default each time I open the game.

.		2009-12-31 10:10:00

Author:
RangerZero
Posts: 3901

To make that work, you have to also funnel people into those criteria. Maybe the custom settings for cool pages should be mandatory, or autodetermined from which levels they play and finish, and which they don't.

To get back on topic: What did you expect when giving away a trophy for playing 20 water levels? 		2009-12-31 14:57:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

When the vast majority of the LBP community seem to love these simple, quick-fix levels then it's no great surprise they're always dominating the cool pages. I mean, you wouldn't expect to hear talented and innovative bands in the music charts, so why expect talented and innovative creators to have much success in the LBP charts. The quick fix, no-brainer culture has predominated Western society for decades now and it's only natural that it would eventually pervade the fastest rising entertainment medium of our generation...video gaming. Personally I'm too much of an "indie kid" to feel any inclination to channel my creative talent into projects that appeal to the vapid masses, so a place on cool pages is actually something I would rather avoid than something I would aspire to. However, a place on the LBP Central community spotlight...well, that's a much more prestigious accolade IMO. I consider LBP Central to be the culture capital of the LBP community, where the cream of the crop are to be found. It is only here among creators of true artistic maturity and integrity that I value the opinions of others and seek any kind of success or recognition. The "Cool Levels" pages can stagnate in the quagmire of mediocrity for all I care.2009-12-31 15:01:00

Author:
Ungreth
Posts: 2130

Stuff and things
Yup.


You can't "fix" the cool pages without ruining it for the masses. Not you might think that the masses are little kids who don't deserve control, but these are kids who are almost certainly convincing mummy and daddy to buy DLC for them, i.e. they are paying customers. Arguably they are more fickle than most of the adults looking for a more sophisticated gadding experience, so if anything they are the customers that MM needs to keep happier.

I do (and always have done) agreed with the improved tagging / genre / difficulties that RangerZero proposes. Hopefully now we've had a big push on gameplay features (OC and water), MM can start to really look at the community aspects and implement such things.		2009-12-31 15:17:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

I agree the cool pages need a drastic change or need something else (i would like to see a page based on heart/play ratio).
When i'm looking for new levels i usually look at the heart/play ratio, 1:10 is good, anything higher even better.

Back on topic...
Like rogar already mentioned, MM kind of forces us to play and publish water levels, so it' no surprise the cool pages are flooded with it

cheers,
misty		2009-12-31 15:37:00

Author:
Mother-Misty
Posts: 574

Yeah there's a lot of levels that are just empty with water. BUT there are still good levels most of them being the levels imported from the beta.2009-12-31 16:51:00

Author:
Doopz
Posts: 5592

We will all get tired of water, perhaps, like the paintballgun. I dont think its many that thinks the paintball gun is so fun to use anymore and same thing is gonna happend with water!
so the rubish water levels will disseaper from cool pages because people wont like them anymore because they will get tired of them!
Now we just wait for them to disseaper. Im sorry for my bad spelling im swedish!

Alec.		2009-12-31 17:07:00

Author:
Alec
Posts: 3871

I didn't even know about the paintinator for at least a month after I bought LBP

But we all knew this was going to happen. Just wait, it will go soon when people realise that they're not getting as many plays/hearts for just levels with water and nothing else in. I do however think Cool Pages should be fixed a bit more, because there are some great levels that don't get the attention they deserve.		2009-12-31 18:03:00

Author:
kirbyman62
Posts: 1893

I hate to be contrary and not jump on the bandwagon, but I don't agree that it is cool pages or the water levels that are the problem. It is the community - well they aren't the problem, but the direct contributor to the result.

You can't blame MM that their system promotes Bomb levels. The fact is that the community gets sucked in. Now I am probably popping off a the mouth and compared to the majority of you that contribute on this site - I am but a babe in the woods ... but I'm not blind either.

This site and community is blessed with a level showcase. Oddly enough, from a new member perspective, I see more people complaining about cool pages and bomb levels, than contributing to the growth of the designers trying to get seen past the cool pages and in the level showcase. Yeah certain people get a lot of love - they post a level and you see "hey your levels are great - I'll check this out right away" - and it is good to have a reputation like that ... but what about the new designers? Or the guys that you don't always play? There are many posts and levels on the level showcase that are heartily neglected. Even if they look crappy or just not your thing ... the basic gift of feedback can help develop.

I have posted ... I think ... four levels to the level showcase. Carnival of Carnage received one feedback privately to me after I bumped my own post - once several days later when I added pictures, then once begging "someone" to give it feedback - which is when I finally got the feedback I was craving. I have just posted another about 3 days ago. Received feedback - changed the level radically - next feedback was the result of an F4F ... realized there is more to change. Looked at the level - the two feedbacks appear to be all that is "site driven" activity coming to view my level.

Now, as I said I am new. I probably have no right to complain in this manner, or pop off at the mouth with this rant - but seriously, how can you complain that it is the game or water that is blocking good non-water only or non-bomb levels from getting played - when we have a secondary outlet where you read the descriptions and then click the back button on your browser. The brilliant part of Little Big Planet is that it is self policing. 1 Star bomb levels if you hate them on principal. Quit hearting them if you are truly not addicted. Start supporting the bloody community and actual play AND review AND comment on more than your favorite designers.

Now, I realize that the discussion and OP is about the community pages - not the level showcase, but in the end - the community (of which we are a part) drives those results.		2009-12-31 18:06:00

Author:
Jaydetiger
Posts: 64

I hate to be contrary and not jump on the bandwagon...

You're absolutely allowed your opinion, just like the rest of us. This is a forum, not a police state!


...the community gets sucked in.

Yep, you're right. The same Community who complain about new trends are the same people saying or hoping that these trends will disappear. Indeed, it's the same community who are building and publishing all the levels this thread is about.


...from a new member perspective, I see more people complaining about cool pages and bomb levels, than contributing to the growth of the designers trying to get seen past the cool pages and in the level showcase.

I'll try to be balanced. The longer you spend on a community forum, the more you get to know numerous members. Some members have been producing very good levels consistently for over a year, hence they build up a reputation. Whether this is fair or not, I don't know - you'll have to see your own answer on the state of the community.

My advice to you is to continue creating, continue being a member here and posting up your levels. Lots of levels go through the showcase - but each one is played by the Community Spotlight team, regardless of who the creator is. But do keep creating and playing - that's why we're ALL here.

2009-12-31 20:06:00

Author:
MrsSpookyBuz
Posts: 1492

My APC level got a comment earlier, simply:
ADD WATER!!!		2009-12-31 20:07:00

Author:
croissantbuncake
Posts: 572

Water is just a tool that you can use to add to your level if it right.

we all knew they be a flood of levels		2009-12-31 20:29:00

Author:
jump_button
Posts: 1014

Bah, just a fad, like when the paintnator was introduced along with the MGS stuff, putting that in a level gave you instan't plays-hearts, don't worry, a week or two later everything will be back to its unbalanced self.2009-12-31 20:38:00

Author:
Silverleon
Posts: 6707

I have posted ... I think ... four levels to the level showcase. Carnival of Carnage received one feedback privately to me after I bumped my own post - once several days later when I added pictures, then once begging "someone" to give it feedback - which is when I finally got the feedback I was craving. I have just posted another about 3 days ago. Received feedback - changed the level radically - next feedback was the result of an F4F ... realized there is more to change. Looked at the level - the two feedbacks appear to be all that is "site driven" activity coming to view my level.


Just some suggestions to help you out...

The way to get more feeback is by utilizing F4F to its full advantage. Be proactive by going out and play other F4F levels! Leave constructive feedback and ask to have a look at one of your F4F levels. Most of the time, those folks will honor that and leave you. As far as community plays, you can try republishing during the 7 days which RangerZero has a thread in the tutorials concerning, but another cool tool is that Level Badge. A common badge won't get a look. Period. A well created one will usually get more plays.

Good luck!

Now back on topic.. I figure the community will balance out once the furor has died down about water as well as those wanting the Salty Dog trophy. It always seems to be one gimmick or another to be honest. If it isn't water, it is bomb survivals or 40 trillion jumps of endearment. The ones that are horribly popular are usually ones that you die quickly and force several plays, which drives them quickly up the cool pages. .... but then there is really no accounting for taste!		2009-12-31 20:53:00

Author:
jwwphotos
Posts: 11383

I added water to one of my ninja survival levels.

Am I famous yet? 		2009-12-31 21:06:00

Author:
Fumo161
Posts: 210

While working on Mythicos IV, i have recieved several community suggestions saying that water would make the level better... It had water in the plans before i had any comments on how to improve it, or before PotC even came out, but jeeeze... Now im thinking of removing water just to keep the "unwanted" plays away...2010-01-01 02:37:00

Author:
poorjack
Posts: 1806

I always assume every level will contain water... i don't need the level to tell me this in the title or description... YES, water is a great addition, YES, water is versatile... YES - water is everywhere!!! there is literally no more reason to advertise this... its just a standard addition to the palette. Period. Now get out there and use it creatively!2010-01-01 04:22:00

Author:
miltonTPS
Posts: 126

Well, obviously the people advertising it are doing so solely for more plays. Unfortunately this is extremely effective... Don't ask me why. It really makes no sense when you think about it. Because people are choosing to play the level just because it has water in it. But they've seen water who KNOWS how many times now. Why would you continue to enter these levels with nothing going for them except showcasing a new feature that you've already seen a dozen times!?2010-01-01 08:04:00

Author:
ApellesJr
Posts: 282

http://lbpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20259
Beat you to it.

Anyways, yeah, this has been getting really bad. And apparently 99% of the people that play these are retarded, because if you look in the comments section of a level with water, you'll see tons of "where do u get water" "I want water how do u get it" comments.

You could just get a blank level, fill it with water, make a crappy "water slide" out of ice and everyone will think it's a masterpiece.		2010-01-01 15:22:00

Author:
Arkei
Posts: 1432

I can't believe that great creators such as poms have changed their levels just to fit in with the new fad. I mean, remember in the bunker where at the end you get blasted out of a massive cannon to the end? Gone. Replaced by a boat ride that pales massively in comparison to the cannon. The background even got changed to an extremely unfitting carribean beach! WHY!?2010-01-01 15:55:00

Author:
FlipMeister
Posts: 631

I can't believe that great creators such as poms have changed their levels just to fit in with the new fad. I mean, remember in the bunker where at the end you get blasted out of a massive cannon to the end? Gone. Replaced by a boat ride that pales massively in comparison to the cannon. The background even got changed to an extremely unfitting carribean beach! WHY!?

I've always been adding changes to my levels to try to keep them "alive". If I didn't do that, it would happen like "Distress in Ocean" that looks totally out of date. And though I still love to play that level, I'd love to see his author was uptdating it.
Don't worry, I understand you don't like the new final part of The Bunker. I'm not absolutely happy with it... so, it won't stay too long.
But, please don't include me in the "new fad", because for example I could have added water in my new level, but I didn't.
In fact, I think "Hell's Angels 2" is one of the few "non-watered" levels in cool pages now.
Thanks		2010-01-01 16:35:00

Author:
poms
Posts: 383

Well, obviously the people advertising it are doing so solely for more plays. Unfortunately this is extremely effective... Don't ask me why. It really makes no sense when you think about it. Because people are choosing to play the level just because it has water in it. But they've seen water who KNOWS how many times now. Why would you continue to enter these levels with nothing going for them except showcasing a new feature that you've already seen a dozen times!?

Yeah.. I agree. However if you look on those levels advertising Real Water, you find quite a few comments asking "How did you make water!?!?!". Makes me realize there is quite a few folks that just play LBP every so often and don't keep up on anything! I think that is why the advertising has been so effective and unfortunately adds to the popularity of those levels. Even though most of them are pretty darn lame.		2010-01-01 17:01:00

Author:
jwwphotos
Posts: 11383

Well you could make a thread..., lament, comiserate, or just play my level... (tee-hee) 8J2010-01-01 17:14:00

Author:
Gravel
Posts: 1308

I noticed some levels that are obviously not built to have water in them. mainly because I get stuck and cant get through gaps not on the front layer >:c2010-01-01 18:11:00

Author:
Matimoo
Posts: 1027

The most irritating thing I find about water levels with boats, is not the water itself, but the boats.
I go mad when I see a boat with one of those boost-things behind it, and when I make it go, it will lean forward, instead of backwards. I mean, a good boat would not be so hard to make, and it wouldn't take too much time.

I am too hanged up in details...


As for the cool-pages with all the lazy water-levels, I rather just search the name of any good creator I know from before, either from LBPC or somewhere else. Works much better.
All I have to do is to take a little trip to the level-showcase and see what's in it.		2010-01-01 18:26:00

Author:
moonwire
Posts: 1627

Well I think everyone can agree that if finding good levels is what you're trying to do, the cool pages have long been a horrible choice. I'm talking more specifically about the publishing side of the game. People who want to get their excellent levels noticed have almost no shot next to retarded publishing giants like lemon and gravy...2010-01-01 19:14:00

Author:
ApellesJr
Posts: 282

No. It couldn't get worse than it already was.2010-01-01 19:21:00

Author:
BasketSnake
Posts: 2391

But, please don't include me in the "new fad", because for example I could have added water in my new level, but I didn't.
No, don't worry, I won't! Your levels are all still brilliant! Just don't add water to them if it isn't necessary.		2010-01-02 15:13:00

Author:
FlipMeister
Posts: 631

Well, we all knew right after water was released everyone was going to try to build quick water levels. Hopefully in the next few weeks the non-creators will figure out that ANYONE can throw water in their level... then the shine will wear off.

I don't think water itself will have the staying power of bomb survival levels, because water doesn't have the fast frenetic addicting play as bomb survival levels... and the excitement of water wears off quickly. I'm not saying a well-built level with water won't continue to do well, por that water itself isn't a good play mechanic.... but I think the excitement of water simply being in a level will wear off soon enough.

In the meantime..... I've been trying to figure out how to fit water into my Lunar Lander level.... hmmmm.... water on the moon?

Bingo. Most of the good water levels won't be out for a while yet since good creations take time, and you can be assured that those talented creators certainly won't need to advertise water in the title to get plays.

As usual, remember that the level-playing community is dominated by kids with no real palette for quality. Gimmicks work great for attracting plays and hearts from this part of the community, not to mention trophy whores who need to get 20 water-level plays to feed their e-peen.

After a while, the trend will die off and hopefully we can be back to the usual swing of things.

Glad to finally be informed about the bomb survival craze, though. The first community level I played after my rather long absence was something called "Hospital Bomb Threat 3 WITH OMGWATER" or some crap. It had 60k plays 4 stars and a high heart-play ratio... so I gave it a shot.

Turns out I was "dodging" giant time-bombs that were falling nowhere near me. After a while the floor was destroyed and I was dodging bombs in water that was out-of-place in a level (it was a hospital....?!?). I was like "what the hell is this crap???"

My faith is forever gone in the ratings system, however receiving accolades from the extremely talented LBPC community is all I need to know where I stand as a creator. Too bad Mm won't grant a special search option for LBPC levels 		2010-01-04 18:58:00

Author:
Thegide
Posts: 1465

They should keep the cool pages. But simply have the opening page being something based on quality not popularity ( for exampel the community webbsites like this sends levels to mm werre they take the best/most innovative levels to this quality page)

On the other hand. We are allways blaming the noobs of this community but......... How much better are MM and LBPC ? The levels are good. But not original at all for the most part. To classical IMHO. I want levels that offers something i have never seen before. Not something i have seen before.

Whats even worse uis that everyone here thinks story is somehow important to a level lol. No if you want story go read a book. It is hard to make a story for a level that is worth bothering. But etheir do so or cut out the long dialogs lol!		2010-01-04 19:30:00

Author:
Unknown User

Inevitable me thinks.
There's only one thing we can do and that's ride out the storm.
My only positive is that it's a testament to the improvement media molecule have made.
I'll conduct an experiment tomorrow and see if adding water to the title gets me straight on busiest.		2010-01-04 20:14:00

Author:
Draden6436
Posts: 297

Not everyone has paid to get their own water yet, so it has novelty value.

People are interested now because its new, sure it may be at the temporary expense of better quality levels BUT once the novelty value wears off, the quality levels will still be quality.

It was going to happen with any new feature - look at all the levels with the metal gear stuff just for the sake of having metal gear stuff.

Good levels can still be found, this forum has provided me with more quality levels than I have time to play.

The alternative is we get nothing new.

This is definitely better.		2010-01-04 20:41:00

Author:
ButterflySamurai
Posts: 98

On the other hand. We are allways blaming the noobs of this community but......... How much better are MM and LBPC ? The levels are good. But not original at all for the most part. To classical IMHO. I want levels that offers something i have never seen before. Not something i have seen before.

The only problem with this reasoning is that at the end of the day, LBP is not a universe where anything can be done - you are still creating within the limits of a game that was designed a platformer. As such, the community will always be generating platform style levels. The ingenuity by which a select few have accomplished feats are bar none impressive, but one cannot expect every creator to develop their own mind-blowingly-novel creation technique the likes have never been seen before.


Whats even worse uis that everyone here thinks story is somehow important to a level lol. No if you want story go read a book. It is hard to make a story for a level that is worth bothering. But etheir do so or cut out the long dialogs lol!

And here's where I feel you've completely contradicted yourself. You want nothing but innovation, yet fail to see that the two basic elements of novel level creation are: 1) unique artistic direction 2) unique story

Few levels do not benefit without some kind of premise (almost all of these being survival challenges). The first questions in a players mind when he enters a new level are "what is this place?" and "what am I doing here?" The former is generally answered by the artistic design while the latter is explained by story.

Depending on the stylizing of the level, one may need more or less story to make sense of things. When I published Shadow Moses: Site B, I got a few people complaining about the rather lengthy narrative that followed the player around. But to achieve the immersion factor/experience that is Metal Gear Solid, it was necessary - because that's what it's like to actually play MGS - Snake and his codec; mission details; ramblings and backstory. The Idol of Palancthar on the other hand, was a light-hearted attempt to capture the same magic of Mm's levels. A few key dialogues were placed to give purpose to a level that is otherwise straight platforming, like all of the Mm story levels.

My biggest grief is getting flamed for doing something a certain way that is largely a matter of opinion and taste. Innovation is the driving force behind all of my creations, but success should not be measured by reinventing the wheel. Platforming adventures will always need traps and jumping puzzles - the key is how can you approach these in new ways?		2010-01-04 23:15:00

Author:
Thegide
Posts: 1465

I am not contradicting myself. Story is not important at all. The levels that truly offer something we have never seen before, like Asteroid!Pinball for exampel. Offers something exciting we have never seen before in a way wich feels brilliant and is simply alot of fun to play.

No story whatsoever. The only story is " the earth is being attacked use the silver ball to defend earth " wich is kinda rubbish story but still that is one level that got alot of plays wich it deserved to get.

Story is not important for innovative levels. And not even for the game in general. Look at the mgs pack, Potc pack. and story levels. The story is just a pathetic joke!

We are as bad as the kids in the community. Except for the fact that we can see how much effort is put into a level and rate it accordingly. We simply prefeer platforming levels because thats what we play when we grew up and thats close to our heart!		2010-01-05 10:02:00

Author:
Unknown User

I am not contradicting myself.

[snip]

No story whatsoever. The only story is " the earth is being attacked use the silver ball to defend earth "


That is a story and a contradiction.

It is definitely opinion - no one is more correct than anyone else - whether or not story is required, but I find levels with a story better on average.

It would be wrong for me to say that the story makes it better - chances are, because story takes time and effort to add, that levels with a well thought out story has had more time and effort overall and the reason it is better is because of the effort and it would still have been good had extra effort been taken from the story and put into the level itself.		2010-01-05 10:56:00

Author:
ButterflySamurai
Posts: 98

Right, in my opinion, its not the water, its the cool levels as a general. I've discovered i can make levels with water in them (ask Coxy224) is that me jumping on the Fadwagon? No. I create with water because i like to, If thats a crime then I'm Guilty.
Water simply a passing fad, like Rick Rolling, the only problem with LBP is because of the majority of the community being younger, Bomb Survivals are Easy to make, a big bit of sponge, Some emitters and some timed bombs you get from a story level, Simple, Fun (in their opinion), Gets you lots of hearts		2010-01-05 10:58:00

Author:
Kern
Posts: 5078

That is a story and a contradiction.

I wouldn't go that far to call that a "story"
Is "survive this level" or "make it till the end" also a story for you?
Innovative levels don't need a story, they need innovative gameplay.

cheers,
misty		2010-01-05 11:32:00

Author:
Mother-Misty
Posts: 574

Innovative levels don't need a story, they need innovative gameplay.

They don't need visuals, refined camera angles and lighting, a sensible difficulty/learning curve, a scoring system, an immersive environment, sound effects, music....

We all have differing ideas of what makes a level great. I'm sure most of us would agree on some level that wonderfully innovative gameplay is wasted if all the aspects that "aren't needed" to achieve gameplay are dropped. Whether or not a story matters to you is completely subjective, to many it enhances the overall experience. What even qualifies as a story is completely subjective too - mrsupercomputer's levels have a story, which can be summed up in 1, maybe 2, sentences. It makes a massive difference to the overall experience though.		2010-01-05 11:58:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Totally agree with rtm.... the fact is, just about ANY idea... whether it be story or innovative gameplay... can create a fantastic level. It's way too narrow to think of any particular thing that makes a good level.

For instance:

With Gothic Reverie it was the story, not the gameplay, that drew me in.
With Nattura's levels, its the stunning visuals - not the gameplay - that draw me in.
With Subterranian setbacks it was the gameplay style, not the visuals or story.
And there are some creators, such as Jaeyden and MrSuperComputer, who juggled everything very nicely.

I would say that just about any creative idea implemented well can make a great level.		2010-01-05 13:57:00

Author:
CCubbage
Posts: 4430

and with your Roll out the barrel, the concept drew me in,
Sandcastle for its looks
Hyper cube for its gameplay
7 days for its humor
Subterranean setbacks for its logic, and thermo busting qualities
So technically! Anything can!

need to play those levels again tonight...		2010-01-05 14:02:00

Author:
Kern
Posts: 5078

At the end of the day everyone's having a fun and that's pretty cool so chill out your day will come2010-01-05 14:22:00

Author:
Draden6436
Posts: 297

I think you guys are reading too deep into what DoubleTime is saying.

I understand what he meant. THERE ARE genres of games that needs a particular aspect more than others. RPGs need a story alot more than a platformer like Mario Galaxy. While it's true that nice graphic, diversity, a story, some innovation and great music is needed in every game to some extent, all those aspect are needed at a different dose. And the platforming genre sure is one where the story aspect is small.

Anyhow, what's beautiful with LBP and that mixes things up even more is that the game is so open because of it's creativity-driven nature that you CAN see and enjoy levels with more story or squarily focusing on it.

.		2010-01-05 15:12:00

Author:
RangerZero
Posts: 3901

I am not contradicting myself. Story is not important at all. The levels that truly offer something we have never seen before, like Asteroid!Pinball for exampel. Offers something exciting we have never seen before in a way wich feels brilliant and is simply alot of fun to play.

No story whatsoever. The only story is " the earth is being attacked use the silver ball to defend earth " wich is kinda rubbish story but still that is one level that got alot of plays wich it deserved to get.

Story is not important for innovative levels. And not even for the game in general. Look at the mgs pack, Potc pack. and story levels. The story is just a pathetic joke!

We are as bad as the kids in the community. Except for the fact that we can see how much effort is put into a level and rate it accordingly. We simply prefeer platforming levels because thats what we play when we grew up and thats close to our heart!

Right you are - Asteroid! Pinball needs no story, because it is a survival challenge. The only point is to achieve a highscore. But even without any dialogue, the artistic elements do leave you to believe that you are trying to save earth.

But I humbly admit that even Asteroid! Pinball isn't that novel. I started working on it back when I got the game and quickly abandoned it on my moon due to game mechanics I could never quite work out - that is until I played Wexfordian's Pinball Wizard levels (and by coincidence, my own level carried the same name until I realized Wex already published his as such).

Speaking from experience, it's difficult to exploit LBP game mechanics to do non-platforming things. Calculators, Tic-tac-toe, Pinball, Xevious, Rollercoasters, and Space Invaders all took some hard tweaking and incredible ingenuity from their authors to make possible. Pinball was an incredible headache because the game's collision handling system is abysmal and things thrown at each other at high speed like to break. A lot. And the gravity is all wrong.

Treat these types of levels like the gems they are, but certainly don't expect everyone to be able to create stuff like this. And if everyone did, I guess they wouldn't be so special then?

Anyways, back to platforming and story - I still think its a matter of opinion and taste. I happen to really like the MGS and PotC packs. The story is sparse, but every level has a point to it other than just dodging death traps and solving puzzle gates. I ask myself "Would they still be as great if all of the dialogue and story were removed?" and the answer is an easy no. Clearly the story doesn't MAKE them great levels (arguably the gameplay and visuals do that), but it does make them better.

Is that true for every level? Of course not. It all depends what you're trying to accomplish. We are all artists here (or at least aspiring to be) and so we have the freedom and flexibility to do what we want. There is no right or wrong way to do things, and certainly everyone has a different idea of what's best.		2010-01-05 17:02:00

Author:
Thegide
Posts: 1465

Right you are - Asteroid! Pinball needs no story, because it is a survival challenge. The only point is to achieve a highscore. But even without any dialogue, the artistic elements do leave you to believe that you are trying to save earth.

But I humbly admit that even Asteroid! Pinball isn't that novel. I started working on it back when I got the game and quickly abandoned it on my moon due to game mechanics I could never quite work out - that is until I played Wexfordian's Pinball Wizard levels (and by coincidence, my own level carried the same name until I realized Wex already published his as such).

Speaking from experience, it's difficult to exploit LBP game mechanics to do non-platforming things. Calculators, Tic-tac-toe, Pinball, Xevious, Rollercoasters, and Space Invaders all took some hard tweaking and incredible ingenuity from their authors to make possible. Pinball was an incredible headache because the game's collision handling system is abysmal and things thrown at each other at high speed like to break. A lot. And the gravity is all wrong.

Treat these types of levels like the gems they are, but certainly don't expect everyone to be able to create stuff like this. And if everyone did, I guess they wouldn't be so special then?

Anyways, back to platforming and story - I still think its a matter of opinion and taste. I happen to really like the MGS and PotC packs. The story is sparse, but every level has a point to it other than just dodging death traps and solving puzzle gates. I ask myself "Would they still be as great if all of the dialogue and story were removed?" and the answer is an easy no. Clearly the story doesn't MAKE them great levels (arguably the gameplay and visuals do that), but it does make them better.

Is that true for every level? Of course not. It all depends what you're trying to accomplish. We are all artists here (or at least aspiring to be) and so we have the freedom and flexibility to do what we want. There is no right or wrong way to do things, and certainly everyone has a different idea of what's best.

I know that your'e elvel was not the first pinball level. But it was seriuosly stunning and in my eyes an innovative level that has a spot in my hearted list for all of eternity.

But anyhow i went to cool pages today and i am impressed. Why do we keep complaining about coolpages ? Now the " OMG WATER " thing has dropped down and alot of the levels were unsoaked lol. All though some levels did announce water they were actually generally good.

Right now the cool pages are better then they generally are IMHO. With some great levels on the board =) So quite nagging and get back to work !		2010-01-05 20:25:00

Author:
Unknown User

i think, to fix this problem MM could pick some levels themselves? as an automatic system would never work, as they work on hits and hearts, shame you can't block certain words in the titles like hmm... "bomb survival" for example!

could you do a list of levels with 5 star ratings?		2010-01-07 14:49:00

Author:
jakew161
Posts: 29

could you do a list of levels with 5 star ratings?

again that would still not work, as alot of Trophy Levels, and OMG Free prizes are 5 stars		2010-01-07 17:14:00

Author:
Kern
Posts: 5078

could you do a list of levels with 5 star ratings?

No but if you search with "highest rated" you'll get all the 5 stars levels.

.		2010-01-07 17:16:00

Author:
RangerZero
Posts: 3901

Yup.... picking 5 star levels would not be a good idea. Some of the best levels in LBP are 3 and 4 star levels, and some of the worst are 5 star... and with LBP closing in on 2 million levels published, it would be absolutely impossible to MM to do a good job choosing levels themselves.

Best way to find levels? Ignore cool pages and use LBPCentral.com.		2010-01-07 17:42:00

Author:
CCubbage
Posts: 4430

Flat out...that's what it comes down to. Sucks for creators who enjoy lots of plays, and dedicate a lot of time creating brilliant levels, but that's the way it goes unfortunately.2010-01-08 06:20:00

Author:
ApellesJr
Posts: 282

Simple solution friends-remove trophy support from future dlc installments. If theres no trophy that says "Publish 3 levels with water" then it would certainly cut down the amount of people abusing the system just to get a meaningless trophy.2010-01-08 22:38:00

Author:
Jrange378
Posts: 573

Has anyone made an underwater version of RAMP yet? I dunno how it'd work, but that would be ace. 2010-01-08 22:42:00

Author:
Ayneh
Posts: 2454

Simple solution friends-remove trophy support from future dlc installments. If theres no trophy that says "Publish 3 levels with water" then it would certainly cut down the amount of people abusing the system just to get a meaningless trophy.

Yes but it's proven that achievements and trophies ARE selling games so they also sell DLC. They will totally make trophies about the main features they add to the game in paying DLC so it encourages sales.
(not that I agree to this, just bringing this reality on the table.)

.		2010-01-08 23:09:00

Author:
RangerZero
Posts: 3901

Thats true, but they could just remove the trophies that require things to be published to reduce spam.2010-01-10 01:05:00

Author:
Jrange378
Posts: 573

meh i don't really play community levels that much and if i do i usually look here for the decent ones

all this crazy water stuff will probably end soon though		2010-01-10 01:47:00

Author:
rseah
Posts: 2701

Well hopefully sooner or later more creative and skilled creators will start publishing quality levels with water. I've seen a few decent ones, but nothing to oogle at. No offence if you have a water level published, I might just not of seen it 2010-01-10 02:40:00

Author:
RottenAvocado
Posts: 319

Well hopefully sooner or later more creative and skilled creators will start publishing quality levels with water. I've seen a few decent ones, but nothing to oogle at. No offence if you have a water level published, I might just not of seen it

Go play the stuff in the new community spotlight. There's some great levels with water in there.

.		2010-01-10 03:50:00

Author:
RangerZero
Posts: 3901

I've actually seen a dramatic decrease in Water levels on the Cool Pages, sure there are a few here and there but the it's a lot better since the 2 weeks following the release of Water EVERY level had something to do with it.2010-01-10 04:23:00

Author:
TheFirstAvenger
Posts: 787

I've actually seen a dramatic decrease in Water levels on the Cool Pages, sure there are a few here and there but the it's a lot better since the 2 weeks following the release of Water EVERY level had something to do with it.
About a month ago there was a thread before water release in which I said the "water" being a big deal would pass fairly quickly. I gave it a few months, but it looks like it's wearing down more quickly than I thought. The truth is, water is a great mechanic but used alot just creates slow, tedious games.

I love it, but it definately isn't the "end-all-be-all" of LBP features that people will scream and low rate when a level doesn't contain it.		2010-01-10 14:29:00

Author:
CCubbage
Posts: 4430


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