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The Music Level Machine

Archive: 39 posts

The Music Level MachineShredder25
Released! The Music Level Maker is a tool created to bridge the gap between real-life musical knowledge and LBP musical knowledge, allowing anyone with the ability to read music to create and publish their own LBP music levels with ease and efficiency.
all

Two basic versions of this level have been released-
Basic, which gives the players the machine and teaches them the basics on how to use it.
Tips, which shows a few more advanced uses of the machine. You get the key to Tips from the Basic level.

Both have been published and are ready for use, if you're interested. Many thanks to Comphermc, TheJollyRajah, and all of those who came in and played with it on my first attempt to build it: your time and ideas helped tremendously.

As said in the level, if you do use the machine to make a level, I'd love to drop by and see what you've made. Hopefully everything works alright, and make sure to post any bugs, inconsistencies, or inconveniences you encounter while using it.

*Updated, no longer requires nor uses the music pack.		2009-12-17 23:17:00

Author:
Shredator
Posts: 151

Music Level MakerShredder25
*This level isn't actually released yet, looking for in-create testers* This is my new level I've been working on, which is made to be a medium to help new musically inclined gadder make music levels. It also serves as a faster, more efficient, and (in some ways) more interesting way to make music in LBP.
all
As stated above, this level is not yet released. I still have a fair amount of refining to do, and plenty of testing. That's where you come in (hopefully).

I need help testing out the possibilities of my machine, but this one is unique in that it can't be tested in a published level. All testing will need to be done in create mode, making things slightly more difficult. Luckily, we have online create now!

No music level making experience required- infact, it doesn't help in the slightest! The only thing you need is the ability to read music, and perhaps a piece of music you'd like to transpose (Note that the machine uses piano notes, as percussion wouldn't be thermo-logical. Any instrumental piece using Treble, Bass, or both can be used.). Any music you make while helping me out is your own, but will only be usable with my machine (not to worry though, I'll be giving it away for everyone's use when it's finished if you'd like to publish your masterpieces).

So, if you know how to read music and would like to help out with my little project, add me to the PSN or send me a message here. I'll invite you when you ask me to, then we can get testing!

OK there Shredator, I have to say I'm sorry I've ignored your message. Truth is I didn't have much time. Sorry I waited this long to tell you. I feel extremely guilty for it, and I hope you don't take it personally or anything.

Besides that, I would love to test out your music maker! Sounds really interesting and unique. Sign me up!		2009-12-18 10:53:00

Author:
TheJollyRajah
Posts: 466

I suspected that might be the case, I don't really have as much time as I'd like to work on a project like that either. Don't worry about it, that's just how life goes sometimes.

I'll be back home in a few hours if you'll be around. Add me on the PSN and I'll send you an invite whenever we both happen to be on.		2009-12-18 16:57:00

Author:
Shredator
Posts: 151

Alright, so I tried a prototype of Shredator's music maker, and I have to say, I'm quite impressed! It really does make piano tunes easier to arrange in LBP. I think this would be a great tool for those not familiar with making LBP music. Honestly, I never thought of this idea before.

Now, there were a few kinks, but nothing that can't be fixed. For the most part, it works.

And the cool thing is, after you make a song, you get to see it played on a piano like smearedink's! Even though it's just for show, it makes it twice as fun to make music.

I can't wait for this tool to come out. I can see even myself making piano songs with it. So LBPC, keep an eye on this!		2009-12-20 06:51:00

Author:
TheJollyRajah
Posts: 466

I am certainly interested. I've been interested in this for a few days now, even going so far as to googling tutorials, but I found it to a be a complicated and painstaking process to arrange a song at it's core. I co9uldn't even do a simple drum loop. OS I want to see how much easier this makes it... I can read music. A PM should be coming your way.2009-12-20 07:09:00

Author:
Astrosimi
Posts: 2046

I am certainly interested. I've been interested in this for a few days now, even going so far as to googling tutorials, but I found it to a be a complicated and painstaking process to arrange a song at it's core. I co9uldn't even do a simple drum loop. OS I want to see how much easier this makes it... I can read music. A PM should be coming your way.

Trust me, if you can read sheet music, it is a piece. of. cake. You will have no problem with this.		2009-12-20 07:11:00

Author:
TheJollyRajah
Posts: 466

Thanks JollyRajah! I'm glad you liked what I've got so far.

The new (hopefully) kinkless version is in the works, though I haven't made a ton of ground on it yet. I'll probably be working on it quite a bit today, so if you're around Astosimi, send me a join request!		2009-12-20 17:28:00

Author:
Shredator
Posts: 151

Shredator, when are you going to publish that Still Alive song you composed? I have it locked and just sitting on my moon, too afraid to delete it.

I may use it yet, but that's way off in the future...

2009-12-20 17:49:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

I don't know how to read sheet music but I make music outside of littlebigplanet. So I totally would like to give it a go. 2009-12-20 21:36:00

Author:
eternal_renegade
Posts: 35

I'm not sure about Still Alive, I may publish it in a while, for a while. Either way, I have a copy on my moon as well, so feel free to delete it if you'd like.
Truth be told, I was a little confused when I made that. I thought I'd heard somewhere that you were working on a fourth level for your series (dunno what would have been in it) and thought Still Alive would be an epic addition to it. It's not terribly important to me though, so you may do whatever you wish with it.

eternal_renegade- Unfortunately, the machine relies heavily on a sheet music-based template. You may enjoy tinkering with it by ear, but I'd recommend learning the basics of sheet music. It's much less complicated than it seems, and should come quickly if you're familiar with note pitches.

In other news, I've spent most of today completely reworking the machine. From the music I've put through it, it seems almost completely bug-free now, and should be ready for a beta release in a day or two . If anyone is interested in making a little music with me for it (and in so bug testing), just add me on the PSN and send a join request my way.
Looking forward to getting a version out for everyone to use, with luck before Christmas .		2009-12-21 05:06:00

Author:
Shredator
Posts: 151

I know scales and I do know some basics. It won't be difficult for me, just saying.2009-12-21 05:24:00

Author:
eternal_renegade
Posts: 35

I have plenty of sheet music that I've been meaning to turn into songs in LBP (since I have some difficulty playing them myself sometimes lol). So if you want another hand to test out your machine thing, I'd be glad to do so. ^^ Most are Zelda/Banjo music.

My PSN is: AeroForce22		2009-12-21 06:03:00

Author:
AeroForce22
Posts: 392

Awesome! I'd love to get together with both of you, when we're both available . I'll try to spend some time on it during the next few days, so feel free to send a friend request to me (Shredder25).

Send a join request if you see me online in LBP, I'll probably be in my level anyway .		2009-12-21 06:13:00

Author:
Shredator
Posts: 151

Sent the friend request. I can't wait to see this machine. xD

EDIT: Wow...amazing. I won't say anything other than the fact that this may just be the big break for music levels.		2009-12-21 20:49:00

Author:
AeroForce22
Posts: 392

Sent the friend request. I can't wait to see this machine. xD

EDIT: Wow...amazing. I won't say anything other than the fact that this may just be the big break for music levels.

Man this is making me want to check it out even more! I wonder if this will also give any means of being able to incorporate music in a level or if it would take up too much thermo to do so.

I imagine you could also use it to create an atmosphere using sound. 		2009-12-22 01:25:00

Author:
eternal_renegade
Posts: 35

Hey I'll be hopping back online tonight, so if I could, I'd love to start testing it this time around. ^^ It'd be really cool to see how well it works. Although I may need a quick explanation on the different colored switches and what each does. xD

EDIT: Also to renegade, it isn't practical to be used in a level that isn't a music one due to high thermo usage and its design. That's all I'll say, don't want to spoil anything. lol		2009-12-22 03:36:00

Author:
AeroForce22
Posts: 392

I'll be on in 15 minutes, so I'll see you soon .2009-12-22 04:01:00

Author:
Shredator
Posts: 151

How is it coming along? Still waiting for the finished product.2009-12-29 07:09:00

Author:
TheJollyRajah
Posts: 466

Wow I'm very intrigued by this.

Can you make your own song and then use it in a level? That would be a god send, though I don't know how you'd do that.

I'm gonna add you TC.		2009-12-29 13:59:00

Author:
TripleTremelo
Posts: 490

This sounds great. I've been searching the internet for the last couple of weeks for music making tutorials as I am needing to put a custom music background in the level I am working on now. Finally I decided to make a music making tool and maybe even making a music tutorial of my own. Basically its just all the tuneable sounds separated into individual note blocks so they can be copied and placed.

I'd be interested in checking out what you have. I'd also be willing to let you see what I've done so far. I'm sure it would save me alot of work on the music for my level.		2009-12-29 14:42:00

Author:
enodrawkcab
Posts: 238

With Christmas, Family, and all that the holidays bring, I haven't had as much time as I'd have liked with it. There are a few little things I'd like to nail to the floor before I publish the first version of this, but truthfully, I think I'm only a few hours from beta. I'm hoping that tomorrow is as free as my plans say it is, and if that's the case (with luck) I can probably launch tomorrow evening. Fingers crossed...

I'm afraid the machine doesn't work quite like what the two of you are thinking, which is partially my fault. I haven't explained it very well, and will need to revise the first post when I release this. LBP music has its own template based on the resources we're given- so making music turns into a lot of tweaking and copying magnetic switches. It's not easy to get into though, and takes time to understand. My creation is meant to bridge the gap between real-world musical knowledge and LBP music knowledge, so that anyone of musical background can build their own music levels easily.

Thanks to your posts about in-level music though, my mind's just meshed together an idea I hadn't thought of before. Using a far more simplified and slightly tweaked version of my current machine, I think I may be able to add a lot of possibilities to custom level music... it seems I've got my work cut out for me for a while.		2009-12-30 06:13:00

Author:
Shredator
Posts: 151

Hey there. I've played piano for 16 years now, and I'd love to help/try this out. Sounds like a great idea. Add my PSN: ApellesJr


See you online I suppose? Or just PM me on here. Either way is fine with me.		2009-12-30 07:00:00

Author:
ApellesJr
Posts: 282

I've been putting off my Music Machine for a while now, but I think it's finally time to get my hands dirty again. I'll be working on the levels again for the next few days, and hopefully will be ready for the open beta... soon (when I put dates on things, they never tend to happen).

There are a few reasons I'd stopped working on this, with bugs, notation errors, and in general lots of fixing to do resulting in no visible progress. I'm busy rebuilding from the ground up though, and have managed to break a few of the old blocks. The music, it's moving again.

I plan to release two versions of the machine: The basic kit, which will be the most simple to use, and the... other one, which will detail more advanced ways to use it as well as thermo-saving techniques. I haven't decided whether they will release together or separately- it really depends on how long the advanced level will take to finish at this point.
I currently plan to release using the music-pack stickers, since I don't expect that to be a problem within this community. However, I would like to create a version sans music stickers (as within the rest of the LBP community, this would allow growth in the more casual audience I want to help). For those of you that know what I'm talking about, or after I've released the normal version, I'd love to hear any template ideas that wouldn't use any of the music stickers.		2010-03-07 23:22:00

Author:
Shredator
Posts: 151

Hey, you're back! Finally! I have yet to show you what I've done with the "Still Alive" song. I hope I'll catch you on these next couple of days.

2010-03-08 02:47:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

Sounds intriguing, I should be around a bit the next few days. It's about time to finish this project, so it should all be LBP when I have extra time.2010-03-08 07:10:00

Author:
Shredator
Posts: 151

Both the Basic and Advanced versions of the Music Machine have finally been released, feel free to drop by and take the concept for a test-drive!2010-03-21 04:08:00

Author:
Shredator
Posts: 151

Holy cow.
This is beyond impressive.
Amazing work.		2010-03-21 04:25:00

Author:
monstahr
Posts: 1361

How exactly does this work (I know how to read sheet music)2010-03-23 05:17:00

Author:
Shhabbazz
Posts: 746

Well, I can think of a really easy way to find that out. Trying out the level says a lot more than I can write here.

*In other news, I've released what I think is a music-pack free version of the level. If someone without the music pack can try out the level and confirm that it lets you edit it, that would be great. If not, then I have a sticker hiding somewhere in there...		2010-03-23 08:24:00

Author:
Shredator
Posts: 151

The Music Level Maker is a tool created to bridge the gap between real-life musical knowledge and LBP musical knowledge, allowing anyone with the ability to read music to create and publish their own LBP music levels with ease and efficiency.

Very nice.

This is similar to one of the first things I tried to create when I got the game, i.e. using a 'sheet' of mag keys to play music. Differences were:-


I moved the playing 'head' rather than the music itself, which allows for a longer 'sheet' of music. Also, if you fix the sheet down with DM, you're less likely to encounter key alignment problems when testing in create mode.
I used a piano roll notation rather than a score, so there's no messing around with separate sharps and flats.


I gave up, however, because:-


I found only having four octaves wasn't really sufficient for most piano music.
I really wanted to have the music playing throughout a level, which is a complete pain to do in LBP. I mean, c'mon MM, it would be so trivial to add a 'global' mode to a sound object.		2010-03-23 16:44:00

Author:
Aya042
Posts: 2870

* I moved the playing 'head' rather than the music itself, which allows for a longer 'sheet' of music. Also, if you fix the sheet down with DM, you're less likely to encounter key alignment problems when testing in create mode.
* I used a piano roll notation rather than a score, so there's no messing around with separate sharps and flats.

-Moving the head works better under some circumstances, but I like the ability to easily emit new sections of a song. You can help the music align itself properly using faster wheels at the back as well, so I thought it would probably work best for this situation. I'd also disagree about longer songs, considering emitted sections.
-I didn't even think about using Piano Roll notation, interesting idea. It wouldn't be directly transcribable though, which I like about my setup.

-Only having four octaves does present a challenge, I have to tinker with my music all the time to make it sound right, despite not having all of the correct notes.
-It's true. You can have level music using a following sack-tracker system with all of the notes attached, but even then it takes up loads of thermo. A global mode and our last 3 octaves would be great, and presumably pretty easy to add... MM? At the same time, a recording device to capture songs from music levels then insert into levels would be an amazing add on as well. The music guys of LBP would start getting some serious music commissions, it would be great.		2010-03-23 17:13:00

Author:
Shredator
Posts: 151

Moving the head works better under some circumstances, but I like the ability to easily emit new sections of a song.

True, but my thermo cheat means that you needn't worry about emitting sections on-the-fly to save on thermo.



You can help the music align itself properly using faster wheels at the back as well, so I thought it would probably work best for this situation.

I meant grid alignment when actually placing the keys in the first place. e.g. if you take your copyable level and try to pick up and replace one of the keys, it moves slightly to the left, which throws out the rhythm. Non-static objects tend to shift around all the time even if it doesn't look like it.		2010-03-23 17:30:00

Author:
Aya042
Posts: 2870

True, but my thermo cheat means that you needn't worry about emitting sections on-the-fly to save on thermo.

Now that you mention it, I actually did use your thermo cheat on my tips level, since the song was otherwise impossible to fit into one level. If you were able to work out a way to emit the no-thermo objects into a level and demit them as well, I'd be able to make a level with my machine with virtually infinite songs (which would be amazing). Still though, you have to be careful the the PS3's limits, if not the thermo's, which is why I also demit all of the sections once they've played.


I meant grid alignment when actually placing the keys in the first place. e.g. if you take your copyable level and try to pick up and replace one of the keys, it moves slightly to the left, which throws out the rhythm. Non-static objects tend to shift around all the time even if it doesn't look like it.

Unfortunately, yes, things can shift out of place, but not generally. The example music in the copyable level should be correct still, it's just been moved off the grid at some point by the wheels when the level was unpaused. It is something you have to pay attention to transcribing the music though.

On another note, do you think the level should have an end gate somewhere? Do people care about that sort of thing?		2010-03-23 23:44:00

Author:
Shredator
Posts: 151

If you were able to work out a way to emit the no-thermo objects into a level and demit them as well, I'd be able to make a level with my machine with virtually infinite songs (which would be amazing).

Well, if you emit an object in create mode, and then change the emitter to emit DM somewhere else, then the emitter association is retained. So if you then trigger the emitter in play mode, the original object will vanish, and the block of DM will take its place. So you could have a large number of songs, but you'd have to find a way to move the original emitted objects into the right place during play mode.

Alternatively, if you go with the moving play 'head' approach, you could fill the entire level with blocks of mag keys, and just use a couple of pistons to traverse through it.




On another note, do you think the level should have an end gate somewhere? Do people care about that sort of thing?

Doesn't really matter in a level where you don't score any points.		2010-03-24 01:11:00

Author:
Aya042
Posts: 2870

Well, if you emit an object in create mode, and then change the emitter to emit DM somewhere else, then the emitter association is retained. So if you then trigger the emitter in play mode, the original object will vanish, and the block of DM will take its place. So you could have a large number of songs, but you'd have to find a way to move the original emitted objects into the right place during play mode.

Alternatively, if you go with the moving play 'head' approach, you could fill the entire level with blocks of mag keys, and just use a couple of pistons to traverse through it.


I can't see a way to activate the glitch without being in create mode.
In my older music levels with all of the notes on the screen at once, my PS3 lags horribly in create mode (because of the addition of wires) and slightly in play mode. Too many mag switches punishes a PS3 even within the thermo limits, a level full of them would most likely crash the PS3 of anyone that entered the level.
The only way for a level with lots of songs to work, that I can think of, is to have the songs emitable and, especially, demitable. Your glitch is great, and can at the moment double the length of a music level without pushing a PS3 further, but any more is just dangerous without emitters.		2010-03-24 03:59:00

Author:
Shredator
Posts: 151

For the sake of being up-to-date:
-The machine is now faster and more responsive, allowing faster repetition of notes.
-Default sheet music has been resized for optimal use.
-The level now requires no purchases (namely, the music pack) of any kind.

I've also published two new levels with it, to test its capabilities a little further. Truthfully, I don't see myself going back to the regular method of making music levels. It's much faster to create this way, with very few glitches, better thermo usage, and far more easily found mistakes (since it uses a graphical interface, rather than tweaked objects). I'd recommend giving it a try, for anyone interested.		2010-04-12 07:41:00

Author:
Shredator
Posts: 151

Sounds interesting, a good idea for sure!

http://i.neoseeker.com/mgv/272671-Blackfalcon/671/5/animal0064hb2_display.gif		2010-04-12 20:15:00

Author:
Blackfalcon
Posts: 409

While I found out about this a week ago, I didnt get a chance to play the level until today.
It functions almost exactly like my player piano I made in september of last year, U.N. Owen Was Her? The only major difference is that I didn't recreate the sheet music in game as it would look in real life. I used Piano Roll Notation. I assume that is the vocab I am looking for. (pitch reference, only 1 key is needed per note, green for naturals, blue for both sharps/flats).
Its still hanging out on the servers, just search my psn. It was also recorded by JHKThree a couple of days after I posted to the psn, here is a link to the youtube video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixDkgcB9VHA

However, this level was a first crude effort that I've been slowly perfecting (real life situations + the ps3 isn't mine = I don't get to play often). I love your tutorial on how it is done. It is well polished and looks a lot better then the clunky logic I used (I even got some of the notes wrong. I've been out of music for too many years).

As for the direction I've taken it, I'm working on a method that only requires 1 switch and 1 key per note, no matter how long/complex the song is. Basically, I attached a thick layer "pin" to a thin layer strip behind it via a sprung bolt at the top, and an inverted switch at the bottom, with its key directly behind it. A whole bunch of these stacked vertically with a strip of wood between them (so they dont collide with one another) make up the reader bar. Well, not completely. The sharps/flats are positioned a layer behind the naturals, and offset It looks very much like the piano keys, just in a different form. The reader bar is moved by pistons (one at top and bottom for stability) through an arrangement of dark matter that represents the notes. The DM blocks cause the "pins" to pivot, which moves the switch out of range of the key, activating that note. Once the reader bar passes the dark matter, the sprung bolt pivots the pin back into place, ready for the next note.
I've also modified the piano roll notation to be easier to transcribe music. Since each pin is 3 small units in height, so is each line in the notation. The bottom unit is for naturals, then the middle unit and back one layer is for that sharp/flat, then the top unit isnt used (that is where those wood partitions would be). Each line also alternates color, between black and white for the staffs, and then white and red for everything above and bellow the staffs.

I'm still having some issues with this design. The notes need to be spread out a little to give the pin time to move back, meaning the reader bar has farther to traverse. This makes the bar move faster for the same bpm, and can cause the pins to start breaking off at high bpm. Conversely, if the notes are too close together, the pin doesnt have enough time to move back into position, and at 160 bpm can only handle 8th notes, albeit unreliably. This is under the assumption that a dm note takes up exactly 1 small grid of space. I have yet to try with anything smaller. That is next on my agenda to do, though it will have to wait for tomorrow.

I'm still trying to make the design work though. Thermo wise you are allowed ~1000 more objects then you are allowed mag keys, so if I can get this method to work then people could make longer, more complex songs without resorting to using the glitch aya found (well, the songs I want to do would still require it).		2010-04-26 22:39:00

Author:
Mennenth
Posts: 52

I believe I have visited your level, a long time ago.

Your idea of sprung pins is a good one though, very interesting. I can't see a way of making it as user-friendly as just sticking on keys, but you could manage some serious thermo-reduction using pins. If you manage to get it working, I'd love to see it.
Using piano roll is also an interesting idea, though it comes down to preference. Keep me posted on your progress on this .		2010-05-01 21:14:00

Author:
Shredator
Posts: 151


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