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Incremental Bolt

Archive: 100 posts

I told some people about this in my entry to the LBPC Invention challenge.

So I decided to share my news to the rest of the littlebigworld, with a more official post in the objects showcase.

1. Background/Problem
I started to play around with logic switches/gates (or whatever you wanna call them) since the beginning of the beta. Starting out with simple permanent switches working my way up to delays, and, or, xor (or stairswithces (trappomkopplare in Swedish) since we use them in stairs ).

Anyhow I saw the awesome calculator like every other LBP-player around the world, and wanted to build a simple led-display counter, since I didn?t like the way he implemented the stickers with emitters, looked tacky imho. And the way that it didn?t recognise the buttons as one-shot (which I think is far superior when it comes to input of logic devices).
So I built one using a super complicated logic device with the help of some googeling. This was very thermo heavy and hard to grasp without spending hours to try to figure out how it all was connected again.

So I did some research to find an easier counter mechanism. But I didn?t find one. So I started experimenting with motorbolts because of their constant speed, and the ability to have the same speed on different sized motorbolts.

2.1 Solution #1
So when I started using motorbolts I quickly understood that I had to control the time it is able to turn. And therefore control the number of degrees it will turn every time you activate it.

I was able to control this very very very accurately with a simple buffer. Which was constructed using a flipper-piston that when activated set a magnetic key switch to ON for a very short period of time. This then turned the motorbolt (that it was connected to) to its next state. After this discovery I started playing around with the speed option of the motorbolt to control how many degrees it would turn every time it was activated. This was very easy to understand because the speed variable is in a 1:1 ratio to the number of degrees it turns when you activate it using this simple flipper-buffer. So if you put the speed at 30 it will turn 30degrees every time you activate it.
Success! I have created a bolt that you could turn in increments.

This made a lot of things possible that I haven?t seen anywhere before. (please correct me if I?m wrong)

Though another problem occurred. What if I want to turn the motorbolt backwards in increments too?

2.2 Solution #2
This was an easy fix now that I knew how to control the bolt. I just took a 3-way-switch and hooked up winches to it. This was very unstable and often failed, because of the lever rocking back and forth after activating one of the winches. I solved this using strong spring?s to put the (floppy) lever back to its ?pause?-state. This worked to my surprise just as well as when I used the flipper-buffer. And hasn?t failed since I built it the first time (around 3-4 months ago)

Success again! I have created a bolt that you could turn in increments, both cw and ccw.

3. Things to know about the Incremental Bolt

3.1 Restrictions:
The maximum degree/activation is 60 (set by the maximum speed of the motorbolt)
The minimum degree/activation is 0.1 (set by the minimum speed of the motorbolt)

3.2 Degrees/states formula
360/x = y (calculating the number of degrees it needs to turn to go through x number of states)
360/y = x (calculating the number of states it goes through if it turns by y degrees every time)
x = number of states before the bolt loops back to its original state.
y = degrees per turn. (0.1 =< y >= 60)

This means that if you want the bolt to go through 10 states before it loops back to its original state you use this formula: 360/10 = 36. This says that the speed of the motorbolt needs to be 36 if you want it to turn 10 times before it returns back to its original state.

Check out the level:
PSN-ID: Tamland
Level Name: LBPC Inventions: Incremental Bolt

Give me some feedback of what you think.
I?ll post back later on how to build it yourself, though you should be able to build it yourself by just reading this post.

From Sweden with love!
//Mattias		2009-12-15 12:40:00

Author:
Tamland
Posts: 106

Oh...Hi there, you've got a minute?

RTM, COMPHER...YOU GOTTA COME SEE THIS, FRESH MEAT!!

Okay, they will be here shortly to start discussing and analyzing your concept (and you).
Sounds great, I'll be checking this out for sure!!		2009-12-15 13:12:00

Author:
Zwollie
Posts: 2173

Cool that you can control the angle so precisely! I wanted to try this at some point, so thanks for the legwork. 2009-12-15 13:45:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

Ah, nice. If I understand it correctly that pretty much what I was looking for the other day.2009-12-15 13:50:00

Author:
Syroc
Posts: 3193

I've always wondered what the motor bolt speed was actually measured in, I just never had the patience to test it lol.

NinjaMicWz used something similar for his LED counter, but that was unidirectional and used an emitted key for the timer. Getting the three way to switch accurately at 0.1s is a nice touch.


A few notes / ideas / questions:
0.1 - 60 degrees is not the maximum angle range you can use. Set a wobble bolt to 360 degrees and it behaves like a motor bolt when operated by a directional signal. Your granularity outside of this range will be a pain, but it will be possible to go beyond the ranges that you describe. The upper limit will be determined by the maximum speed the wobble can turn before it kerplodes.
If you pulse the input at 0.1s, what is the behaviour? does it cycle smoothly until you stop pulsing?
If you check out my LED counter, it has a mechanism to prevent the visible rollover / ripple of digits (i.e all digits update at the same time, on the second). This could be extended for an incrementer / decrementer and adds a little "professional" touch to it.
I may have an alternative solution, which has about a 50:50 chance of success - I'll get back to you on that one



Oh and on a side note:

One shot (which I think is far superior when it comes to input of logic devices) I can't get on board with this statement It totaly depends on the application. There are plenty of applications where one-shots are unable to carry out the desired task, or do so in a very inefficient way. Combinatorial systems for example.		2009-12-15 14:34:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Nice that so many have got back to me!

@Zwollie:
Fresh meat?? HAHA, not everyone can be a forum-junkie

@rtm223:
The 3-way-switch took some tweaking i must say. Though a soon you get a hang of it works perfect!

1. If you use 0.1 you get 3600 states.. dont know if its necessary to push that limit
but the 60 could be improved!
I've tried to do it a couple of times using a wobblebolts (which i assume you mean) but cant get consistent results.. and its to much of a hassle to convert the time into speed/degree. Though i'm sure its possible. If you get the conversion of time/speed calculated correctly.
And to add to this, I've of course tried it with pistons and winches, but they "fade" (don't know the right word for it), so if MM doesn't come with a solution on that part that's just a waste of time.. Unless some of you find an awesome way of doing it.

2. No it ain't smooth. but it looks "kinda" smooth. Made a car before, it was rolling along ok,but you just stood their shaking on top.
I have an example up thats named "Simple Animation" that switches state by a pulse 0.1s. Just a quick demo i did i while ago.

3. Yeah i saw that. Nice feature! My counter, there is one in the LBPC Inventions level, there is a 2 digit counter and I haven't seen any ripple effect that i got with my old experiments. I tried it with 4 digits and couldn't see any ripple, though i'm sure there is one :/

4. Can't wait!

The One-shot thingy:
Of course it depends on the application, but I have to stick with the statement. As long as I wanna make something that moves to predefined places or switch states accurately.
But if you make a car i wouldn't use one-shot (but that ain't a logic device in my book)		2009-12-15 16:13:00

Author:
Tamland
Posts: 106

I think I have tried that with the 3 way before and just didn't need the behaviour enough to spend the time tweaking

Wobble Bolts would be good for 90 degree / 180 degree increments for example, but yes the conversions for most numbers would be a hassle. Although you could just set the angle on the bolt to be some multiple of the angle you are after and do a division on that using the time - it should work as anythgin >=360 degrees acts like a motor bolt when controlled from directional.

As for the pistons, they will lose the fade behaviour if controlled by a directional signal, so you should be fine with your 3-way control - where you just trying with the initial on/off signal type? I have an example of bi-directional linear incremental movement in the beta, using dark matter blockers - the same technique I use for my ordered inputs tool, in a more refined form.		2009-12-15 16:34:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Small typo, there, rtm. You meant to say that a wobble bolt set to 360 degrees receiving a directional input will have the same effect.

Very interesting about the motor bolt timing, though. I must do some testing.

Thanks.

2009-12-15 16:44:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

Is that all the input you've got?????2009-12-15 16:50:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

@Zwollie:
Fresh meat?? HAHA, not everyone can be a forum-junkie


Hehe, Rtm & Comphermc are our main Logic junkies around here so in their eyes you could be considered fresh meat.


Is that all the input you've got?????

I know, right? I'm disappointed, very disappointed...

(J/k, I know you have exams comph )		2009-12-15 16:58:00

Author:
Zwollie
Posts: 2173

Hey, guys, it's finals week. I have a paper due in 3 hours. My life is busy! Cut me some slack...?

Edit: Thanks, Zwol.		2009-12-15 17:15:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

I just republished the level with 4-digit counter, and realised (how do I spell that comphermc? ) that it has a slight ripple.
removed the frickin pass-thingy.
Added a car example where I pulse 10 degree every 0.1s.
And a scoreboard..

Will get back to rtm223 later, can't answer that long of a message with an iPhone, :/

feeadback or if you have any problems please respond

From Sweden with love!
Mattias		2009-12-15 18:07:00

Author:
Tamland
Posts: 106

You can either say realised or realized, depending on where you are. In Europe, it's with an "s".

Anywho, I checked it out. Very awesome! As for your little conversion, it was off by a factor of two. If I wanted my bolt to stop at 10 locations, it would take the motor bolt to have a speed of 18. It appears that you need to use 180 degrees, not 360. 4 stops? A speed of 45 is necessary. Now, I agree that there is a maximum degree rotation in 60 degrees, but only if you are emitting a key for .1 second. If you emit a key for .2 seconds, then you can cause a rotation of 120 degrees, and so on.

Actually, I'm not even sure you were emitting a key, but that's what I did, to splendid results. Check out these pictures:


http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/3225/aphoto31.jpg

Here is a wheel which stops at exactly 10 places along the wheel, or completes 36 degrees of rotation per each activation. The emitter emits a key for .1 seconds, which turns the wheel on for long enough to rotate 36 degrees. The wheel has a speed of 18.

Incidentally, this allows me to solve a problem I was having a few weeks ago, with an led clock that has no rollover lag. Now, I've run out of time, but here is the idea...

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/3047/aphoto32.jpg

When the key spins around, and it is just about to complete it's first rotation, the last switch moves an emitter into a location where it will activate the next wheel. All of the emitters are triggered by the same input (the upper wheel), so there is no lag at all.

Sorry if that seems confusing. I will be "fixing" my led clock tonight to reflect these new findings.

I can't thank you enough for this!! I removed my thanks! so I could give you reputation for this.

2009-12-15 19:55:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

Logic geeks... Can't live with them, can't live without them...IM JOKING, RELAX!2009-12-15 20:55:00

Author:
Fredrik94
Posts: 342

@rtm223
I tried with the pistons again but its extremely hard to get the time and length right.. Need some type of calculations so i don't just keep reaching for something in the dark.
But the fade behavior is gone so its doable atleast! I must have still been on the one-way-bolt when i experimented with that. It was quite a while ago

@comphmerc:
Nice building!
No i dont use the emitter to control the bolt. I use a piston based buffer, that's set to flipper-motion so that it only activates one time.. Regular one shot buffer in short
Maybe thats why you get the double degree/activation.. The flipper-motion is so fast that the bolt is actually only activated 0,05s?? just a theory but seems plausible in my book..

Check out my level to see exactly how I've done it. My 3-way incremental bolt is also there so you know how to build that too! I will post some pics on my contraption so you all can see how i built it.

Oh yeah, I put the magnetic key switches on the wheel instead of around the wheel as you did.. much easier! Though harder to control the wires when you have reversed, since the wires go to an upright postition..

You are welcome!

Thanks for the feedback once again!		2009-12-15 21:52:00

Author:
Tamland
Posts: 106

Well, I did some more experimentation, and ran into some troubles.

It seems emitter don't always behave as they are supposed to (shocking!). Sometimes when I copied over one of the wheels to make modifications, the timing of emitters would go all funny. Even though they were set for .1 seconds, the lifetime of the emitted object would be .15 seconds. I could tell since it would spin 1.5 times what it was supposed to when I made absolutely no changes to anything. I just copied it and placed it. Sometimes it would work, other times it would not.

I have no idea what the issue there was. I essentially had to just build it over and hope it would work...



I tried making that 12 hour led clock, but I was having the above problems and got sick of wiring stuff up. I may finish it yet, but definitely not for a little while. On the plus side, the rollover worked how I expected...

2009-12-16 04:10:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

Ahh okey..

Emitters always give me trouble...
well not always, but they are hard to debug imo :/ harder than the winch AND/OR switches, that i think rtm223 pioneered. (if it wasn't him forgive me..)

Try my piston controller instead. haven't had any problem with it so far.

BTW: A LBPC-noob question: why do i have 2 crowns under my name?		2009-12-16 07:29:00

Author:
Tamland
Posts: 106

You have received a bunch of reputation, and the crowns are an indicator of that.2009-12-16 12:59:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

Ahh okey.. Well then i must say thanks to the ones that have given me such a good reputation!2009-12-16 13:13:00

Author:
Tamland
Posts: 106

Even though they were set for .1 seconds, the lifetime of the emitted object would be .15 seconds. I could tell since it would spin 1.5 times what it was supposed to when I made absolutely no changes to anything. I just copied it and placed it. Sometimes it would work, other times it would not.


Ahhhhh, this sucks.		2009-12-16 13:16:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Indeed it does, rtm. I did find a solution, but I'm not sure what it takes to break it again.

The solution involved setting all the emitter to emit a maximum of zero, and then un-wiring them. I let them run for a moment, then paused and rewired. I then set the max emitted back to 1. As far as I could tell, the problem resolved itself.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure what causes the problem in the first place. If it were to occur at any time in play mode, then this method would be sadly un-usable.

Up for any additional testing? I'm wondering how accurately you can use flipper pistons and if those will have the same problems...

Edit: I assume you got the thing I sent you? Yeah, I fear that one may not have worked.

Super Edit: On the plus side, the application of these is not in vain. Once you get one working, this method of getting the wheel to spin at exact degree increments can be used to make extremely accurate notched wheels. If you need a wheel with 6 notches, set the speed of the bolt to 30 and set it up through a periodic input. Pause after every activation and you can accurately notch off 6 equal divisions. 9 notches? A speed of 20 would be used...

The formula is as follows:

Speed = 180/n, where n is the number of divisions you desire.

If you need any fewer than 6 divisions, you will need to use a .2 second lifetime key, or just use the premade shapes... 		2009-12-16 13:31:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

Sorry, this will be a double post, but I have solved the above problem. Also, I will go over my "clock" design.

Anyways, I found out that I only experience problems with the duration of emitted bits when they are triggered by switches (i.e.) logic. I have remedied this by allowing the emitters to just do their thing and emit every second for a duration of .1 seconds. What I did, then, was just move the emitter into a suitable location when I need it to activate something. Yeah, this was influenced by rtm's dissolve based toggle design. (Actually, rtm - here is an application of that switch you were unsure of how to use... I just now realized that it's the same concept).

Anyways, to get a better understanding, let's have a gander at one of my wheels:

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/4936/clock3.jpg

Here, we can see that the emitter is in an inactive position. When it fires, the key will be emitted outside the range of the key switch. Notice the 6-way wheel. This means the speed of the bolt is set to 18.

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/1818/clock2.jpg

Here, the bevy of connectors attached to the emitter have allowed it to extend to a position where upon emitting the key, it will activate the mag key switch. This causes the wheel to rotate 60 degrees, and to stop precisely on the next key.

The reason that there are so many connectors on that emitter block is because I was using it for an application involving the next picture. Basically, it ensures that this wheel will only activate when it is supposed to. In the context of what I was using it for, this is the "tens" place of the minutes wheel. In that sense, it will only activate when the ones place of the mintues wheel, the tens place of the seconds wheel, and the ones place of the seconds wheel are all set to roll over (finish their cycle).

I hope that made sense.

Regardless, here is what I arrived at for my 12 hour clock design:

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/9306/clock1.jpg

Everything is labeled, so there's not much to explain. We start with the wheel on the far right and when it carries over, it actives the wheel immediately to the left. This pattern will continue, and each wheel will cause the successive one to activate when it rolls over.

The nice thing about this design is that it eliminates any rollover lag. When hours roll over, it does so in sync with seconds and minutes. The only problem I can foresee is that the manual minute and hour additions are logic controlled, so that they may not work right based on the problems I was having above. I didn't seem to have any problems with it, however.

Now I just need to figure out how to display the output... Any ideas? I was just going to emit blocks with the time on them, but the dissolve-y-ness of it looks funny... :/

Pretty neat, eh?

/geek

2009-12-16 15:25:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_p0M9IDN4_TM/SaXIfC-DOKI/AAAAAAAAAzI/DrS8GvYzWe0/s320/exploding+head.jpg2009-12-16 15:36:00

Author:
Zwollie
Posts: 2173

OK, as I'm not likely to do it myself anytime...

Either of you considered stacking two motor bolts on top of each other, rotating in opposite directions? Keep them turned off, and just pulse the clockwise one to go clockwise and anticlockwise one to go anticlock. No three way needed. Do DM on thin layer, first wheel on thick layer, second wheel on thin layer as it will help your strength / accuracy.		2009-12-16 15:47:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Well, mine was unidirectional, but I don't see why that wouldn't work...

2009-12-16 15:50:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

Now I just need to figure out how to display the output... Any ideas? I was just going to emit blocks with the time on them, but the dissolve-y-ness of it looks funny... :/

I suppose analogue is out of the question?

You could try lights forming the digits like a led display.		2009-12-16 15:56:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

I suppose analogue is out of the question?

You could try lights forming the digits like a led display.

Yes, this was a consideration, but then I would either have to fiddle with emitters anyways, or I'd have to use an insane amount of OR gates. I'm leaning towards led's but I haven't decided yet. This is what I was using already, and it wouldn't be terribly tough to implement, I just don't want to have to wire it all up... 		2009-12-16 16:10:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

I think I still have the schematics for controlling a single digit somewhere, from a project at university. I recall there was quite some room for optimisation (high coupling between certain leds), but I think drawing up a new one will be faster than digging through my attic.

Just think of it as a way to practice what you learned from Waste Not, Want Not. 		2009-12-16 16:24:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

Just think of it as a way to practice what you learned from Waste Not, Want Not.

Oh boy!!!

Naw, I'm leaning towards emitting a chunk O' dissolve that has keys in the correct places to results in the LED's lighting up... I'll probably pick this up again after the new year...		2009-12-16 16:49:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

That would be cheating! 2009-12-16 16:56:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

Just think of it as a way to practice what you learned from Waste Not, Want Not.

Lol, do y'all want homework assignments next time? 		2009-12-16 16:57:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Yes we do!

I dont know if you have checked out my level yet, but I have the 3-way-controller as a prize to pick up if don't want to tweak with it yourself. Though I must say that the double bolt thing is intriguing, I tested it before to double the degrees to make a 90degree turn and such, it wasn't reliable though.. So I scrapped it

My 4-digit-led counter is made with a bunch of or-switches, not that hard to build yourself. Though their is alot of wiring to do		2009-12-16 17:05:00

Author:
Tamland
Posts: 106

Sorry, Tamland, I haven't checked out the correct level yet... or have I? I went into some level that had a grabby wheel that always reset in the same place. I'm not sure when I'll have time to check it out, but we aren't ignoring you.

And, yeah - I have a 12-hour led (that's 6 digits) that is up and running right now, but it has problems. For some reason, it fails at a certain point. Hence, a redesign is necessary!		2009-12-16 17:23:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

Doh, on my way home I realised you're converting 10 inputs to 7 leds, which is a lot more boring than my project, 4 inputs (BNC) to 7 leds. Alright, I'll forgive the cheating. 2009-12-16 18:53:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

@comphermc:
okay, no that's not the level that I am talking about, that's just a simple example of a motorbolt that spins one way for x number of rotation and always returns back with the maximum of 1 rotation.

When you have the time the name for it is LBPC Inventions: Incremental Bolt. And is located at the north pole.. Enjoy!

From Sweden with love!
Mattias		2009-12-16 19:03:00

Author:
Tamland
Posts: 106

Wow... This is really elaborate. Half the time I don't even know what you guys are talking about! lol jk I used some logic in my level, but nothing compared to this... Great work there Tamland! I hope you work the kinks outta this, cause this looks really awesome. 2009-12-17 01:35:00

Author:
uncharted228
Posts: 30

Hey Tamland, I checked that level out - very awesome stuff! I liked how you did your OR gates for the led counter, and I "borrowed" the idea, simplified it, and implemented it in my 12-hour clock level. It's a bit rough since I've had enough for the day, but I published what I've got over the old version. Search my name to find it...

The thermo has been significantly reduced, down to 5 bars, and the rollover is instantaneous (they all trigger at the same time). Check it out if you want - the level is copyable so you can take it back to your moon and have a look.

Now, I was having the problems with emitters not wanting to fire for only .1 seconds (they apparently prefer .15 seconds). I had remedied this with the clock, but when I was trying to add in buttons to manually add minutes and hours, I ran into the same problems. I wasn't able to sort it out the way I did before, and I got very frustrated. For now, the buttons shall remain inactive. (I think I just thought of a solution. It won't be pretty, but it should work.)

Thanks again for the technique. Check out the way I modified your OR gates and let me know what you think. I had considered using OR gates as well, but wasn't sure how to organize them. You saved the day there!

2009-12-17 04:37:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

@uncahrted228:
Thanks! I will work the "kinks"(?) out of this
Though it isn't really that complicated logic. More of a trick with motorbolts.

@comphermc:
Nice that you liked it! I got the idea of using the OR gates that way when I read rtm223's blog post some week ago. The one where you reuse magnetic keys, instead of building another OR switch i just replaced the mag switches to a more effiecient location.
Though I've had problems with the middle LED and the OR gate for it. Not really optimized location.. I will check your 12h-clock-level out to see if you've got a better solution for it.

A side note: The previous on that you had up i was able to break when I hammered the buttons for the minute and the hour. The emitters became unable to emit it looked like, don't know the reason though.

Don't you think the piston buffer is a more stable solution than the emitter on that you are using? It haven't broken during all the time that I've used it..
For the button thing: Couldn't you just put a simple OR gate between the sync and the controller of the bolt? So that the button overrides the sync?

There might be something that I'm missing here but I will get back to you when I've tried your level out. Which will be in about 8hours... frickin work 		2009-12-17 08:53:00

Author:
Tamland
Posts: 106

Yeah, that problem with breaking the old one has since been resolved. I'm leaning towards making the player have to hold the button down to increase the digits. It would be slower, but I'd be able to control the reliability a bit more.

And yes, the piston buffer may be more reliable, but I can't help but do my own thing. For the clock portion alone, it's been very reliable, and it produces no rollover lag.

Edit: Great news! I was able to make an incremental bolt using neither emitters nor 3-way switches. I just used a flipper piston!

Here's a photo of what it looks like:

http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=541&pictureid=9684

The base of the wheel is a thin piece of DM behind, which is connected to a little square of material (also behind) via a flipper piston which has a blue key switch on it. When the flipper is triggered, the switch moves out of the zone of the blue keys, and the wheel rotates. When the key switch returns, it "catches" the wheel, bringing it to a stop. There is a little green key on DM behind, so as to active the green switches. Everything is self contained in this nice little wheel thingy, and the piston and blue switch behind actually peak up ever-so slightly for easy editing. Neat, eh?		2009-12-17 13:21:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

Haha okey!
Ofcourse you should go your own way!

Finally you've come to your senses! flipper-piston-buffer is the sh*t!
Kinda neat that you built it in a small package though!

I quit work in about 30 minutes, and then it is time to check how you improved upon my design! Or should i say if you've improved.		2009-12-17 17:13:00

Author:
Tamland
Posts: 106

Last update, hopefully. I got a two directional one to fit into the same little package. It uses flipped pistons, but I was able to stash them out of view. I added you on PSN so I can show you.

2009-12-18 05:46:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

ahh nice! I checked out your 12h-level last night and it worked well! though I'm sure about holding the button to change the hours and minutes.
I'm a bigger fan of clicking for every change. If you wanna get past the unstableness when someone is hammering the trigger, you could use a regular jump-style button.. Kinda fool-proof actually, 'cus you can't activate that button as many times/sec as you can with a grab switch.
Or you could build some kind of delay, so you only can activate once every 0,5sec..

I liked the way you made it work with the emitters moving in and out of the mag-switch's view. Though it looked like alot of keys were emitted for no good reason

Sadly i couldn't play with it in Create-mode, since i doesn't have the history pack dlc.

About your last update:
Did you make the two-directional one without the 3-way-switch? With stacked bolts? just curious.. haven't tried that one myself.
Okey i might get in later tonight, it depends if it's a pub-night or not
You're in the US, right? That means that there is atleast like 7hours time difference between us. 		2009-12-18 07:44:00

Author:
Tamland
Posts: 106

I am in the US, so it must be afternoon there (even though I just woke up). Even if we can't meet up, I can send stuff to you. And yes, it utilizes stacked bolts.

The reason that I had to emit all the keys in the clocky thing is to ensure the keys for the timed input and the manual input will never conflict. If someone were to change the minutes just as they were about to roll over, it could cause the whole thing to be misaligned. As it is now, the "manual keys" only emit at the same times as the automatic ones. Not the best system, I know, but it works. Perhaps I can use the flipper piston technique and just "turn off" the automatic input when it's active. For now I can't be bothered.

About the history pack - yeah, I used that for ticking sound. 		2009-12-18 14:48:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

Sorry for the delay..

been great playing with you comphemc. Glad that you liked what i've been working on. Though I will take care of all the dated logic pieces I have in my debuging levels..

I'm kinda stoked that the .2 piston worked so perfectly! Though i feel its wierd that it tripples the defined degrees. But we can live with that i think.. :S

I've been experimenting with the 2-way stacked bolts solution.. sadly it isn't as exact as using the 3-way-switch to control the direction..
It starts to turn more/less then the specified degree after a couple of full rotations.
Do you have the same problem?

BTW: Thanks for the tip about wexxfordians level! Frickin awesome that he's been able to build that!!! I must start working on my own single/double/hold button!		2009-12-20 19:58:00

Author:
Tamland
Posts: 106

I saw your comment in the other thread...

I haven't been having any problems with it, to be honest. I'm not sure if the material choice has any effect, but I'm using polystyrene. The TV I have here just died, so I can't really do any testing right now... 		2010-01-05 12:58:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

I'm kinda stoked that the .2 piston worked so perfectly! Though i feel its wierd that it tripples the defined degrees. But we can live with that i think.. :S


Not at all. I believe magnetic key sample rate in 0.05s, so you would comfortably get 1 detection in 0.1s motion and 3 in 0.2s motion. If you modify the mag switch radius you should be able to force a doubling of the defined degrees.		2010-01-05 13:13:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Hmm.. Yeah the material can have a role in this problem.. Will check it out when I get home from work.. (probably shouldn't spend company time on lbpc )

A completely different question: how would you build a multiple input XOR? I have two soultions that I think will work.. But I can see som stability problems...

//Mattias		2010-01-05 13:19:00

Author:
Tamland
Posts: 106

Easiest solution is to use the old-school AND gate from the logic pack and place a key in a location where it only activates when the desired number of inputs are true.2010-01-05 13:21:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

Stacked wobble bolts. If you have a thin layer base of dark matter, then stack a thick layer on that, with a thin layer on top, you get no stability issues as the weight proportions are high enough. Then do the same behind the dark matter and you get 4 inputs with no stability issues. Wobbles all turn 90 degrees to give the correct effect. The mag switch looks across the axis to detect at 90/270 degrees.

Beyond 4, you are going to have to play with material sizings / densities to get stability


Edit: regarding comphermc's post - depends how you are defining xor with more than one input 		2010-01-05 13:23:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Yeah, yeah... or just put a key in every other spot and put the switch on the moving part...

A few extra keys never killed anyone...		2010-01-05 13:26:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

can you please explain what this does in laymans terms?2010-01-05 13:32:00

Author:
Kern
Posts: 5078

It's a wheel toggle, but without the notches...

In other words, it's awesome!		2010-01-05 13:43:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

how is that possible? 2010-01-05 13:49:00

Author:
Kern
Posts: 5078

switch on a motor bolt of known speed for specific amount of time -> known number of degrees rotation.2010-01-05 13:50:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

oh right so its all a matter of testing?2010-01-05 13:56:00

Author:
Kern
Posts: 5078

It's a matter of knowing that the speed of the motor bolt is directly related to angle it sweeps out every .05 seconds. An n speed motor bolt will turn n degrees when triggered ON by a .1 second flipper piston quickly entering and leaving the mag-key radius.2010-01-05 14:23:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

Not exactly. The timing of the input is very predictable and tamland has pretty much nailed the motor bolt speeds, so the testing is more "sanity checking" rather than building using trial and error.

IMO it's a simpler method to implement than the notched wheel and can be extended to bi-directional.		2010-01-05 14:25:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Have I mentioned lately how much you guys amaze me..... oh sure - I leave drooling and feeling like a brain damaged Emu but always amazed.

This is a really cool idea and while I have no clue why I'd need to use it I feel compelled to find one.... Thanks as always for the research and never ending amounts of smarty pantsness! 		2010-01-05 15:53:00

Author:
Morgana25
Posts: 5983

Thanks for all the response I've been given!!!


Easiest solution is to use the old-school AND gate from the logic pack and place a key in a location where it only activates when the desired number of inputs are true.

Yeah that's one of the ways that i thought of.. though i dont like the bouncyness when you move a piston that isn't the one on the end.. Makes me question it.. quite alot actually.. and if you turn off all the inputs at the same time it will have to pass through the magnetic switch, which makes me doubt it even more :/

Read on to see the other solution I have for the n XOR (as i now will call it If you guys doesn't have a better name for it)


Stacked wobble bolts. If you have a thin layer base of dark matter, then stack a thick layer on that, with a thin layer on top, you get no stability issues as the weight proportions are high enough. Then do the same behind the dark matter and you get 4 inputs with no stability issues. Wobbles all turn 90 degrees to give the correct effect. The mag switch looks across the axis to detect at 90/270 degrees.

Beyond 4, you are going to have to play with material sizings / densities to get stability

Hmm.. will look in to this in the tommorow..

Though the two wheels on the back won't be that useful. Just put them side by side and let the wheels share a rectangular piece of darkmatter, it shouldn't be any difference in the thermo.. Right?



Edit: regarding comphermc's post - depends how you are defining xor with more than one input

the n XOR i'm talking about is supposed to handle i.e 5 inputs and it should only be in an active state if one of these inputs are active.
0 inputs on = n XOR off
1 input on = n XOR on
2< inputs on = n XOR off

My first solution as mentioned above is a simple "old-school" and with pistons connected in a series with cardboard between each piston.
Here is a brief overview of how it's set up.


DM = Dark Matter
mk = Magnetic Key
ms = Magnetic Switch
-p- = Piston

__ _ _ _ _ __
|DM|-p-|_|-p-|_|-p-|_|-p-|_|-p-|mk|
| |_________________________________
| ms|



And Now to my new and improved(?) version of the n XOR.
Look at the setup and you should be able to make some sense out of this. Hopefully


|------------------|
| Tweaking : |
|-/--/--/--/--/|
__ ___ |/--/--/--/--/-|
___ |DM|-p2-| | | -p1- = Piston 1: |
| |-p1-| |-w2-| | | Strength : 5.0 |
| |-w1-| |-w2-| | | Time : 0.1 |
| |-w1-| |-w2-| | | Stiff : Yes |
| |-w1-| |-w2-| | | Inverted : Yes |
|ms1|-w1-|mk|-w2-|ms2| |------------------|
| -w1- = Winch 1: |
|-----------------------| | Strength : 10.0 |
| Connecting : | | Time : 0.1 |
|-/--/--/--/--/--/| | Inverted : Yes |
|/--/--/--/--/--/--| |------------------|
| Input 1 --> p1 & w2 | | -p2- = Piston 2: |
| Input 2 --> w1 & w2 | | Strength : 8.5 |
| Input etc... | | Time : 0.1 |
|-----------------------| | Stiff : Yes |
| ms1 --> p2 | | Inverted : No |
| ms2 = XOR true/false | |------------------|
|-----------------------| | -w2- = Winch 2: |
| Strength : 8.0 |
| Time : 0.1 |
| Inverted : Yes |
|------------------|




Yes, I was booooored and couldn't sleep at 3:20 AM, So i made these CODE-thingys Its not like you didn't enjoy 'em


Explanation :
This new and improved(?) n XOR works with a simple piece of logic. (Even though it probably doesn't look like it.)
The main concept of it is by using different strengths on the connectors (p2 and w2). So that you need atleast the strength of 2 winches to exceed the strength of the piston and basically force the value into false.
This is pretty much what the right side of the part does.
The "junk" on the left is a simple OR switch that controls the piston on the right-hand-side. So the n XOR is true when 1 of the inputs are true.

Problems :

Need some tweaking before it works 100% Hope you guys have an answer for this. But the brief testing I did i came to the conclusion that the strength the winches are actually using is depending on how far away they are from the piston.. This caused the contraption to shake like a paintmixer... Though as soon as you find the right Strength value it works perfectly. (tested it with up to 12 inputs.)
A slight larger latency than the "old school" n XOR latency of because it has to work itself through 2 steps before it can send the true/false value.
More connectors...



EDIT: I'm probaby off topic with all this n XOR talk.. Start a New "n XOR thread"		2010-01-06 02:33:00

Author:
Tamland
Posts: 106

Whoa, nice.

The only thing I would change is to make the winches and pistons all have a strength of 10. This should eliminate the strength issues when the winch is further from the piston (two 10 strength winches will still overpower a single strength 10 piston). The winch should not be able to overpower the piston when they are the same. I'm not 100% on that.

Dangit, now I want to test this. It'll have to wait until tomorrow.

As for the thread, you can just change the title if it's easier, and edit the original post to eliminate any confusion.

Edit: Y'know, what? I completely forgot that the way you and I are trying to define a higher order XOR gate is somewhat incorrect. In actuality, it should deliver a TRUE output when there are an odd number of true inputs. This means it should also "activate" when there are 3, 5, 7, ... true inputs. For that, there really is no better solution than the pistons-in-series when you get to a high enough number of inputs. I'll add a picture in a moment when I whip it up. (If you are concerned about reliability, add glass).

Here we go:

http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2109&stc=1&d=1262758653

It should be pretty self explanatory. It only "hits" a key when there are an odd number of inputs. Forgive the spacing, lol. I was just wanting a photoshop refresher. Notice that there are tiny little spaces between them initially. LBP doesn't like moving materials to be flush, so this is to ensure reliability.

2010-01-06 04:57:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338




.......		2010-01-06 07:27:00

Author:
Kern
Posts: 5078

The only thing I would change is to make the winches and pistons all have a strength of 10. This should eliminate the strength issues when the winch is further from the piston (two 10 strength winches will still overpower a single strength 10 piston). The winch should not be able to overpower the piston when they are the same. I'm not 100% on that.

Yeah... I want it that way too.
But one 10.0 Strength Winch will exceed the forces of a 10 Strength Piston, though not as fast as if you would drop the piston strength by just a little bit.

And i got som really freaky results when i tried this with 9 inputs.
I had the Piston at 10 and the winches at 9,5 and when the last input was activated (the one with the winch furthest away from the piston) It was able to pull the Cardboard down halfways and then stop.. and when only the 8th input was activated it started shaking like a paintmixer gone wild
So to get it to work I just tested and tweaked 'til it worked... SO Tedious!!!

Though i could place the piston in the middle and hopefully minimizing the problem a little.



Edit: Y'know, what? I completely forgot that the way you and I are trying to define a higher order XOR gate is somewhat incorrect. In actuality, it should deliver a TRUE output when there are an odd number of true inputs. This means it should also "activate" when there are 3, 5, 7, ... true inputs. For that, there really is no better solution than the pistons-in-series when you get to a high enough number of inputs. I'll add a picture in a moment when I whip it up. (If you are concerned about reliability, add glass).

Ahh okey..
But doesn't it stand for Exclusive OR? not Odd OR

If that is the case then i can't think of better solution than the piston in a series thing. But then its not quite what I'm looking for... Whats the cool abbreviation for the one i want? UOR (Unique OR)

But does your solution gets rid of the bouncyness? when it activates i.e input no 1?

BTW: you've got mad Photoshop-skills I can see h4XX0r		2010-01-06 10:22:00

Author:
Tamland
Posts: 106

This is a really cool idea and while I have no clue why I'd need to use it I feel compelled to find one....

A sure sign of its brilliance! Proper science has no need for practical application.


Thanks as always for the research and never ending amounts of smarty pantsness!

Which reminds me... *peers at Rtm's blog*		2010-01-06 10:27:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

Life's been getting in the way, sadly. I've barely been on my PS3 in the last couple of weeks. I am getting sent home at lunchtime because of the weather, so with any luck I will be able to get something finished.... a mere 2 weeks late.

As for the multiple input XOR function - it doesn't actually exist. The reason for the ODD function is if you break it down to

a XOR b XOR c XOR d

You get positive ouput if an ODD number of inputs are TRUE. Conceptually, the name "exclusive" doesn't fit, but that's a semantic issue, the mathematics of it are sound.		2010-01-06 11:57:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Ahh okey, then I understand!
But for me it seems like a pretty basic function.. It must have been used before in logics!?

BTW: Can't wait for the next blog post! 		2010-01-06 12:24:00

Author:
Tamland
Posts: 106

But doesn't it stand for Exclusive OR? not Odd OR

If that is the case then i can't think of better solution than the piston in a series thing. But then its not quite what I'm looking for... Whats the cool abbreviation for the one i want? UOR (Unique OR)

Yeah, it bothered me as well. I was under the assumption that it meant exactly one as well, but I was forgetting that XOR is associative (nerd alert), so it turns out that it implies an odd inputs be true.

More Info on That (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/XOR.html)

Let's say that we want to understand what this operation means:

a XOR b XOR c

Now, since XOR is associative, we are able to freely add operation parentheses wherever we desire. Let's write it like this, then:

(a XOR b) XOR c

What happens to our truth value when we give this operation a true value input for a, b, and c? Well, the (a XOR b) becomes FALSE because of the nature of the XOR function. So we now have (blue displays TRUE, red displays FALSE):

(a XOR b) XOR c

The XOR function by itself requires exactly one input be true, which is the case here. Hence, our output is true. 3 inputs gives a true output.

Voila.


But does your solution gets rid of the bouncyness? when it activates i.e input no 1?

I don't have any problems with it.


BTW: you've got mad Photoshop-skills I can see h4XX0r

Haha, thanks. I like to go back and make sure I know how to do it every-so-often.

2010-01-06 13:28:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

it's geekNotes...2010-01-06 13:34:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Haha, fixed.

2010-01-06 13:35:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

lol at the copyright symbol 2010-01-07 02:13:00

Author:
Incinerator22
Posts: 3251

Don't want any legal repercussions, y'know...? 2010-01-07 02:15:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

An imitation company! 2010-01-07 02:17:00

Author:
Incinerator22
Posts: 3251

Woah! This rotating incremental bolt beats the snot out of my own little bit of logic I had crafted. It is far cleaner and no doubt much more accurate. Also, yours can go the full "distance" and be back right where it started. As mine is a multi stop piston (though it goes to point a to point b to point c etc. I'm still working on how to get it to skip points if needed) it has to be reset before it can begin again. Yours is also probably way more thermo friendly.

Thanks for posting what you created Tamland! I'm definitely going to have to use it for my new event sequencer for my next player piano.		2010-01-07 03:51:00

Author:
Mennenth
Posts: 52

@Menneth:
I'm glad you enjoyed it!

I have actually tried to getting it to work with a piston. Though the tweaking got the better of me.. The thing that makes is so hard with pistons is that you don't have a speed option, you only have an option to change the time it takes to travel half (right?) the distance of the pistons length.
This makes it difficult if you want different length pistona working with the same increments. A motorbolt on the other hand doesn't have to deal with these problems since it's a fixed to position and you can have any size circle you want, and it still turns with the same increments.

Though you might have gotten some different results and it would be awesome if you posted yours.. Its often more rewarding to see other people tackle the same problem.

@comphermc:
The XOR we built last night, it's cool but the latency is such a drag.. and its quite easy to brake, atleast if you have some string laying around
Though we should be able to fix the latency atleast...

And the water adventure level looked pretty brilliant!! though some places need some fixing i think.. but we discussed that with Milton (that was his name right?)


About the geekNotes.. Dont know if you wanna make a shoutout to a girl named Viola, but my guess is that you wanted to say: Voila!
Since we are nitpicking		2010-01-07 08:57:00

Author:
Tamland
Posts: 106

@ Tamland
I don't have any pictures currently, though I'll be able to get some up sometime this afternoon. (I have some errands to run this morning).

My piston system is actually more then just a piston. It uses 3 pistons, 2 winches, and a 3 way switch.

The first piston is the primary one that controls the state of the system. The 3 way switch controls the direction of the primary piston. The 2 winches are hooked up to the 3 way switch. The other 2 pistons are basically your solution with the flipper pistons, though my solution is much "dirtier" as I didn't think to use flipper motion (instead I used emitters and dissolve in a method too complex). Each of the flipper pistons has a mag key on one end and an inverted directional mag switch right next to it. 1 piston to essentially control each winch. Since I'm going to adapt my system to take into account what I learned, I'll describe the process using the cleaner solution.

As my system is vertical, lets say the UP input gets activated. The UP piston activates, flipping the key away from the switch, which then activates the winch, pulling on the 3 way switch and moving the primary piston UP. The time it takes the UP flipper piston to pull the key back into that switches radius is the time that winch is active, which is also the time the primary piston is moving. Its not completely exact as the 3 way switch does take a small finite amount of time to get back into neutral, though I also think your solution of using a spring to yank it back into neutral would help in that regard. My DOWN piston takes much longer to pull the switch back into place, as that is for resetting the system. Your system is better as it has no reset time hehe.

I'm no math genius on this and have no numbers to post on the timings as I really just sat there and fiddled with the whole system until I got it working the way I needed, and then just placed the state switches along the track as needed where the primary piston stops.

I will say that while the system I came up with isn't as accurate, it is consistent. It will go the same increment each time, even after resetting.		2010-01-07 15:09:00

Author:
Mennenth
Posts: 52

@Mennenth:

Yeah I would like to see some pics!

Mine is just piston that is hooked up to my directional controller..

Mine also moves consistent (or atleast it looks like it does) i just cannot tweak it to move the length I want with every increment. Lets say that i have a total length of 10.0 (i.e. min length = 2.5, max length 12.5) And then i want it to move in increments of 2.5 ( = 1 small grid length) which gives me 4 increments. The problem is that i have not been able to tweak the time option accurately enough. And the biggest problem is that if i want it to move in the same increments (2.5) but in a total length of 15 (giving me 6 increments).
This could all be easily fixed if we were given an option to treat the time/speed variable in two different ways. Either by speed or time depending on the situation. This option would give more benefits then just incremental movement ( ) Like platforms moving at the speed even if they aren't the same length.

Or if someone could calculate the speed vs length vs time and make a conversion table for this... This would be so frickin awesome! And he/she would be my favorite sackperson for a long time!

BTW: Do you have a demo-level up so I/we can take a look at it..		2010-01-09 11:53:00

Author:
Tamland
Posts: 106

This is a brilliant tool and I'm sure should have some practical application.

Infact I've tried to make it work with a rotating wheel puzzle ( I'm no good at techy explanations as I don't understand most of it ) although I'm having some issues.

Instead of the wheel with all the mag switches on that you show, I have connected the switch on the piston to another wheel with 8 segments. I don't think it needed to be segmented for any mechanical reason as I assume the bolt would turn the same regardless. I just made it segmented to make it easier to sticker each segment.

Anyway it's working sort of but I'm finding that it rotates very quickly for about 6 segments but then the last 2 seem to suffer some slowdown and snap into place a bit jerkily. I've tested it lots of times and it does it every time.
Have you any idea why it's doing this and what I could do to fix it.

BTW I made my own switches following your design ( hope that's ok ) and I set up 2 wheels for comparison, 1 with my switch and 1 with yours to see if i'd made a mistake somewhere but they both react the same with the same 2 jerky movements at the same point.		2010-01-09 12:07:00

Author:
mistervista
Posts: 2210

Nice that you liked it!

Aslong as you aren't using stacked bolts you shouldn't have any problems with segmented or non-circle objects..

Does it move with the same increment or is it just that it moves slower the last 2 increments? If it just moves slower it could be some lag.. Is it alot of stickers that it needs to show at once?
If it moves in the wrong incremts you can try to make the wheel perfectly round so don't have any weight distribution problems.. I have had these problem when I was using stacked bolts to make it multidirectional without the 3-way-switch. But I haven't ha any problems when I was using only one bolt.

I try to make a animated sequence of megaman, using 8 pixel sprites. And then pulse it at 0.1 sec but it drags the picture a bit so it's kinda blurry.. Though it stopped at it's increments perftectly every time..

Ofcourse you should build your own stuff! Just make sure it work.
You can always publish a demo level or add me on psn (tamland) so I can take a look at it.		2010-01-09 13:12:00

Author:
Tamland
Posts: 106

I only have 1 bolt in the centre of the wheel and it stops at each increment perfectly in place. It's just the last 2 are a bit jerky and slower than the others.

The easiest way would be for you to take a look so I'll delete someone from my friends list I've haven't seen in ages and send you an add request asap.

Thanks.		2010-01-09 14:38:00

Author:
mistervista
Posts: 2210

Thank you so much, especially for your optimism about helping the community! The logic examples level description link is in my signature, hope you can check it out!2010-01-09 20:27:00

Author:
Incinerator22
Posts: 3251

@ mistervista:

The only conlusion that i can come to is that your problem must be related to lag. Since i've played with you I tried making it with segments like you did.
Have you played my demo level? Do they "lag" in the same way as yours?
Try to play lbp without logging in so you'r playing it offline.. and see if the problem is still there..
Other than that i have no solution for it..

BTW: Checked out some of your levels and BIG FRICKIN LOL at the Man-swimming thing! Genius!

@ Incinerator:

Ofcourse I wanna help and share my findings with fellow players. Is there any other reason for being a part of a community?? Bragging?
The above part is rhetorical

Couldn't find it in any thread of yours.. Or is it only implemented in your level so far?

/Mattias		2010-01-09 21:44:00

Author:
Tamland
Posts: 106

Alright, I've made a 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, and 10 way incremental bolt, geometrically correct down to each angle, with both keys and keyswitches on every incremental thing. lol.

I can't think of a way to make a 7-way bolt though because seven doesn't go into three hundred and sixty evenly :eek:		2010-01-10 02:52:00

Author:
Incinerator22
Posts: 3251

@ Tamland

My post with pics got a bit too long, so I made a new thread on it so I will not clutter this one (since this thread is really about your object)

The thread is in object showcase under the title "Incremental Piston", but here is a link if you come here first:
https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=t=21087		2010-01-10 04:29:00

Author:
Mennenth
Posts: 52

I have disovered that you are not the inventor and that hibsi91 made this before you :eek:2010-01-10 06:00:00

Author:
Incinerator22
Posts: 3251

:eek: Really?????? Is that true Tamland? Or Hibsi?2010-01-10 09:01:00

Author:
Kern
Posts: 5078

@ Incinerator22:

#1: Nice! no a 7-step is pretty difficult

#2: Oh really? Thought that I looked under every rock to find if someone else had done this.. Do you have some links to his contraption? Because when I started this (ages ago) I was really trying to find if someone else has made this...

If he was first HE ofcourse should get the credit! But I should atleast get some credit for showing you all! 		2010-01-10 09:02:00

Author:
Tamland
Posts: 106

Well, you were the first to showcase it so you win

His were for calculators though. But, since Kernel's tap-grab and Tamland's bolt have already been made my drone has little competition left in the invention contest.

XD		2010-01-10 22:11:00

Author:
Incinerator22
Posts: 3251

is that what all this you arent the inventor stuff is about? 750 exp?

if we are doing that then yours isnt exactly revolutionary		2010-01-10 22:16:00

Author:
Kern
Posts: 5078

Na-ah! lol. But it controls a wicked drone! XD2010-01-10 22:18:00

Author:
Incinerator22
Posts: 3251

but it isnt exactly fair. both me and tamland thought we invented it2010-01-10 22:25:00

Author:
Kern
Posts: 5078

@ Incinerator22:

I guess that you are saying that he's using a "incremental bolt" in his calculator level, right?
But as far as i know he is not. He is simple having a bolt hooked up to a 3-way-switch. If he was using an "incremental bolt" you wouldn't be able to get in a state that is between 2 numbers.. i.e. no number is emitted. (You can try this yourself by just dabbing one of the 3-way-switches).
Another fact: His calculator level is published waay later (the date slipped of my mind) then the first level that I used my Incremental Bolt in (Simple Animation, published Sep 8, Last edited Sep 8).

So as far as I know I'm still the inventor of the "Incremental Bolt".

Side-note: I dont really care about winning the inventions contest.. I just thought that it was a good way of showing of my solution to a bigger audience... Even though i wouldn't mind winning it *blink blink* (I'm actually pretty competetive)

Side-note2: I think that it is good that you are questioning the inventor of different contraptions and solution, but sometimes it comes off as childish to be honest..		2010-01-10 22:52:00

Author:
Tamland
Posts: 106

Hey now, I'm (mostly) kidding. lol.

He told me he made one for his calculator about five months ago but never used it, but he doesn't want to make a ruckus out of it.		2010-01-12 01:39:00

Author:
Incinerator22
Posts: 3251

Yeah, he doesn't really care either way. He showed it to me... It was basically a 10 way bolt, which had keys arranged in a certain way to light up a row of lights. It was really genius actually. I may go back to my clock level and do something like that. It would negate the purpose of having all those OR gates. I'll try it out tomorrow and post some pics of it.

I'm not sure, but I think he was using a 3-way switch. Or not. I can't remember.

2010-01-12 02:16:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

As I read through my post again right now I can see that it may look a little harsh, which was not the purpose of it... So hard to convey tone in a forum posts

What i was trying to do was to just stating some facts...

And I must say that hibbsi91's calculator is awesome! though i'm still questioning if he is using an incremental bolt.. just from when i was playing his level its really weird if you could get in a "middle" state if it wasn't a just a bolt hooked up to a threeway switch..

Or maybe he has come up with someother really awesome solution! would love to see what comph can find

BTW: comph: My stacked bolt is quite unstable again the only difference is that i captured it and pasted it again.. Weeird....		2010-01-12 06:45:00

Author:
Tamland
Posts: 106

No, Hibbsi doesn't use the incremental bolt in his calculator, but he was going to initially.

Weird about the instability. I have yet to have that happen. Perhaps try making it bigger?		2010-01-12 12:04:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

Does anyone have any ideas about a 7-way incremental bolt? It can go around about three times before going too far off track. I think I could just put a winch at the top so it resets every rotation but I'm not sure if that'd work well.

So since you all are geniuses, lol, any ideas?		2010-01-12 20:57:00

Author:
Incinerator22
Posts: 3251

Hmm.. you could fool it by using 8mag-switches and you have the 8th just run the wheel one more time, making it skip it... the only simple solution i have for you..

This could be done with a simple OR if you only have one direction..
If you use multidirectional you will have to beef it up with one more OR and two AND's.. atleast

if you want some schematics or something, i could probably put something together		2010-01-13 07:46:00

Author:
Tamland
Posts: 106

Or it could be rounded up?2010-01-13 18:18:00

Author:
Kern
Posts: 5078

You would get disalignment after one revolution, Kernel. It would fall 3 degrees short if you used a speed of 51.2010-01-13 18:38:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

oh im sorry i didnt know, i havent been able to look at this like i would want to2010-01-13 18:40:00

Author:
Kern
Posts: 5078

I've been thinking of ways to construct a boss that moves in an interesting way. Mounted on a piston, the boss would have a mag key (1) on it which would activate a one-shot mag switch (2). This would in turn trigger a flipper-motion piston, pulling another mag switch (2) away from its mag key (2). Mag key 2 is connected to main boss piston, so whenever boss passes mag switch 1 the movement is deactivated for the amount of time it takes for the flipper piston to reset.

Applying this to incremental bolts, then, you would use comphy's idea a few pages back with the mag keys on the wheel (1) to activate the flipper piston. Mag key 2 would then turn on (or off, if you prefer) the motor bolt. Whilst this implementation isn't useful for accurate, split-second, pinpoint positioning of the motor bolt, it allows for the bolt to turn by different amounts each time it is activated - and it is easily customisable; all you have to do is move the mag keys (1) on the wheel so that the mag switch (1) is activated at different times.		2010-02-27 15:26:00

Author:
Holguin86
Posts: 875


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