Archive: 33 posts

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So as some of you may know, I have been looking for a way to consistently reproduce the material shifting bug. The reason for this is that I have a theory, which I have developed based on an observation made during the making of my level. Here is the theory : Objects that have been corner-edited do not suffer from the material shifting bug. This theory has been confirmed! Here is the setup : I have made a field of simple dummy logic switches. These are made of one static rubber block with a stiff piston connecting to a dynamic rubber block directly above it. There is a set of magnetic key and switch on the blocks. The first 8 logic switches were made by simply placing the rubber blocks using the square brush. The other 8 logic switches were made by making "+" shapes using the square brush and then deleting the four excess branches with the corner editor. Here is the experiment : Save, hit play, rewind, etc, until some material shifting occurs. Here are the results : By placing a new block with the square brush next to the existing blocks, it is possible to tell if a block shifted (even slightly). Normal rubber blocks that suffered material shifting : 14 of 16 Corner-edited rubber blocks that suffered material shifting : 0 of 16 Here's how you can help : Run the experiment yourself. Make a series of logic objects (whichever type you want) both by corner editing some of them and by making some the usual way. Then post your results here. If we get enough positive data, we can come to a conclusion on the theory and possibly confirm a solution to avoid the material shifting bug.

2009-11-30 02:07:00 Author: Gilgamesh Posts: 2536

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You are really onto something here. I ran this experiment, and although it took me a while to get any material shifting, I did finally get results. I made a series of 5 dummy logic switches out of the first 5 "basic" material types, all with non-corner-edited blocks. I then made another set of 5 dummy switches with the same 5 materials using a variety of grid-based shapes that were all corner edited in some way. Here's what I found: Normal blocks that shifted: 8 out of 10 Corner edited blocks that shifted: 0 out of 10 I hope we are able to definitively confirm this. I am corner editing every shape I place from now on.

2009-11-30 05:30:00 Author: Taffey Posts: 3187

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I noticed the same thing awhile ago. I tested your theory out just recently and it's been par for course.

2009-11-30 05:47:00 Author: gevurah22 Posts: 1476

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Alright, I've extended the scope of the experiment to explore some other venues. In addition to the previous two setups, I've added the following : 4 logic switches made of rubber hexagons on pistons that were shrinked down. 4 logic switches made of rubber cubes that were moved into place. 4 logic switches made of rubber cubes that were plane-shifted from the back layer to the front layer. The results : For the logic switches that were made of corner-edited cubes and regular cubes, the results were the same as before. Corner-edited cubes remained in place while the regular cubes suffered significant material shifting. The cubes that were plane-shifted from the back layer also suffered from some minor material shifting, but much less than the regular cubes. Whether this is a random occurrence or not would require more specialized testing. Because of the imprecise placement of the hexagons and moved cubes (I shoved them into cube-shaped alcoves to place them), I couldn't tell if they had suffered from minor shifting. None displayed any significant amount of material shifting, however both displayed another anomaly. The anomaly : Both the shrinked and moved hexagons, and the moved cubes suffered from stored momentum. One of the hexagons visibly rotated by about 5 degrees while one of the cubes rotated by over 360 degrees (it basically went bonkers). The other three switches of both lots didn't seem to display the anomaly, or it was of an insignificant amount. I am unsure whether this was caused by the way I placed the objects (shoving them into alcoves) or whether it is endemic to moved objects. It should be noted that the objects were moved BEFORE the pistons were attached to them. I didn't check if they had already stored momentum at that point as I had not expected this anomaly. The conclusion : Regardless of the anomaly presented in my tests, I think I can draw a clear conclusion now. Objects that are corner-edited will not suffer from material shifting.

2009-11-30 13:56:00 Author: Gilgamesh Posts: 2536

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This is an awesome find. I have noticed my captured object shifts ALOT, very noticable between each time I press pause and play. So don't use pistons and captured objects too, even if you used the corner edit tool on it before hand. EDIT: Actually looking into it, the object which the captured object was attatched to by the piston may not of been edited with the corner tool (though the unedited object was the static object) so maybe that's why the captured object moved?

2009-11-30 13:56:00 Author: ryryryan Posts: 3767

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I don't believe that capturing alters the results (as the observation I had made in my level included an uncaptured enemy crab and captured enemy crab), but I will try to run some tests with captured objects on my next train ride.

2009-11-30 13:59:00 Author: Gilgamesh Posts: 2536

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Yeah as I said I forgot that the object the captured object was attatched to may of been unedited (cant remember but probably wasn't edited) so that may of been the reason for the shifting, even though that was the static object.

2009-11-30 14:08:00 Author: ryryryan Posts: 3767

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This is pretty exciting.... I'm gonna check it out when I get home! Now, if I can get my completed object to capture I would be a happy camper!

2009-11-30 14:42:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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[...]Now, if I can get my completed object to capture I would be a happy camper! Hmmm... note to self : next experiment, determine precisely how the capture tool actually works and what its limitations are.

2009-11-30 15:28:00 Author: Gilgamesh Posts: 2536

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Hmmm... note to self : next experiment, determine precisely how the capture tool actually works and what its limitations are. Funny thing is, I was testing the capture as I built, and it was working properly up to where I was finishing the object. All of the sudden, doesn't work any more.... and even if I simplify it so that it seems to work, many of the mag keys and switches disappear.

2009-11-30 15:31:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Can someone explain what material shifting is? Or possibly post an image?

2009-11-30 16:28:00 Author: Unknown User

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Can someone explain what material shifting is? Or possibly post an image? When you place an object, it will sometimes randomly move by itself a few pixels every time you rewind (even in pause mode). This is even if you make it static or glue it to something. Any pistons or switches attached to the object remain in the same place, so the object basically slides away, leaving pistons and switches hanging in mid-air. This has the potential to break logic, break mechanisms like drawbridges and lifts, make platforms impossible to jump on and make visuals ugly by displacing things randomly. The longer you work on a level, the more noticeable/damaging the shifting becomes.

2009-11-30 16:34:00 Author: Gilgamesh Posts: 2536

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Yup, and on my "rant" thread I posted a picture of it happening in the level I was trying to build.

2009-11-30 19:04:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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I guess this is pretty ironic. I'm kind of known for my querky shapes that you can only really get using the corner editor...the first time I make a level that is pretty much all grid based this pops up! This could possibly help with my level. It would be impossible for me to corner edit every shape but the ones that actually matter, i.e the ones that pistons are attached to, that should be pretty feasible! Cheers!

2009-11-30 19:12:00 Author: jackofcourse Posts: 1494

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I have played some more with with corner editing in my current project. It doesn't seem to matter what type of corner editing you do, just that you edit. You can either add or delete a corner or move an existing one, and the object will not shift. I have also found that if you corner edit an object that was previously shifting, it will no longer shift. I use a lot of triangles in my background logic gates and mechanisms as they take up fewer polygons. What I've been doing is plopping down grid-based squares and then simply deleting one corner. This gives me the low poly count I like and also negates the shifting issue. So far I have been very happy with the results.

2009-11-30 19:30:00 Author: Taffey Posts: 3187

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I can confirm that captured objects behave the same way as non-captured objects. I have made a set of two logic switches, one made using corner editing and one without. I've captured both together and placed them eight times in the level. After causing the material shifting to occur, the results were as expected : the 8 corner-edited logic switches remained intact while the 8 regular logic switches suffered from the bug. Interestingly, the objects that suffered from the bug moved by the exact same distance in the exact same direction, whereas there was usually some variance in my other tests. What this tells me is that whatever causes the bug is some kind of inherent value in the object.

2009-11-30 23:09:00 Author: Gilgamesh Posts: 2536

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This is a great find, for LBP PSP Creators who are suffering from the Material Shifting bug. I think we have found a solution to the Material Shifting bug, i will try to corner edit as much as i can to avoid this bug. Hey why don't we give it a cool name (or something), i'll name it "The-Bug-That-Causes-Static-Materials-To-Move-By-A-Few-Pixels-And-Usually-Occurs-When-You-Rewind-Save-Pause-And-Unpause" bug. This Will nao be teh official name!!!1!eleven!1111!! Nah i'm just joking around (again).

2009-11-30 23:47:00 Author: Black265 Posts: 208

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I'd really appreciate if you guys could spread this news around to the other LBP sites. People need to be informed about this solution.

2009-12-01 00:03:00 Author: Gilgamesh Posts: 2536

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What we really should do is say "Hey, we have a possible fix to a known bug.... but we'll only tell you if you switch to LBPC."

2009-12-01 00:05:00 Author: Taffey Posts: 3187

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Lol @Taffey, you can always link back to this thread. Once they see the awesomeness of LBPC at work, they'll have no choice but to switch.

2009-12-01 00:08:00 Author: Gilgamesh Posts: 2536

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[QUOTE=CCubbage;341960]This is pretty exciting.... I'm gonna check it out when I get home! Now, if I can get my completed object to capture I would be a happy camper![/QUOTE The only limitation that i've found is that you can't capture anything with glue on it.

2009-12-01 01:53:00 Author: Fishmaner1 Posts: 5

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Haven't seen that one. I have glued material, pistons, switches, static, and dynamic material in the object I'm trying to capture.... and it works once I delete some floating pieces of material - so I'm trying to simplify until it works with the entire object.

2009-12-01 02:18:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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haha! now i know im not crazy! Ive been playing lbpsp create mode for a few days, and havent seen ANY object shifting. I thought people were being paranoid, but it turns out, i just use the corner edit alot alot. like for every shape, so i havent been effected at all. good find dude vondudenstein.

2009-12-01 06:22:00 Author: poorjack Posts: 1806

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Is the material-shifting bug the one where objects will shift slightly to the side when loading a saved level? Also, I'm all for a bug work-around, but I would fell more comfortable with a formal fix coming from SCEA--not knocking your efforts in any way though, don't get me wrong--do you guys think we COULD see a formal patch from Sony?

2009-12-01 07:49:00 Author: zeldarocks Posts: 120

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I had a variable speed piston setup in my project that was giving me fits. It would go bonkers every time I paused or unpaused, and the magnetic switch zones needed constant adjusting. I replaced the whole thing with an identical mechanism made up of corner edited blocks and have had not one problem with it for the past 4 hours. I love it! This has me encouraged to start pushing the PSP's boundaries a little further. I may even try *gulp* a 5-way logic gate. Wish me luck.

2009-12-01 07:50:00 Author: Taffey Posts: 3187

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[...]do you guys think we COULD see a formal patch from Sony?Time will tell. A comprehensive bugs list has been passed along to Sony, so they should know about this bug, amongst others. [...]This has me encouraged to start pushing the PSP's boundaries a little further. I may even try *gulp* a 5-way logic gate. Wish me luck.Good luck, let us know how it turns out.

2009-12-01 11:18:00 Author: Gilgamesh Posts: 2536

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I have recently noticed that some of my non-corner-edited blocks shift and some do not. There must have been something else I did to prevent shifting but I haven't been able to tell quite yet what that was. Resizing, moving, and tweaking static/dynamic do not seem to be factors. I suspect that I material changed the non-shifting blocks but I don't know for sure if that's what "fixed" them.

2009-12-01 19:02:00 Author: Taffey Posts: 3187

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Well, the bug is inherently inconsistent from what I've seen. Some objects will move more noticeably than others, some will move in different directions from others, and some won't move at all.

2009-12-01 19:07:00 Author: Gilgamesh Posts: 2536

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Gah!! The only object that I did not corner edit in my level was the most important object. I want a perfect square in my level. Will this work if I just select it with the corner editing tool or do I have to change it?

2009-12-01 21:26:00 Author: Darth J464 Posts: 343

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Just create a square with extra bits on grid tool and delete them with the corner editing tool.

2009-12-01 21:58:00 Author: Unknown User

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Just create a square with extra bits on grid tool and delete them with the corner editing tool.That's exactly what I do. Just select all 4 corners at once with the edit tool (so convenient that we can do that!) and delete. Very easy.

2009-12-01 22:04:00 Author: Taffey Posts: 3187

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I also need a perfect circle. What do I do then?

2009-12-01 22:16:00 Author: Darth J464 Posts: 343

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I would take a circle and add corners in between the usual ones. The circle shape is way too angular for my tastes anyway.

2009-12-01 22:46:00 Author: Taffey Posts: 3187

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