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Is creating good levels becomming too difficult?

Archive: 93 posts

I've seen the number of people suffering from "creators block" increase recently, myself included.

This got me thinking. Has the standard of level gotten to a point where it just doen't seem worth it anymore? To get the same wow factor from people as you could 6-8 months ago you need to really come up with something innovative.

There must be a certain point to which you must go, well, If I really want to do something different its going to take "x" where "x" just isn't worth the hassle. This I think can be really counter productive and takes away from the essence of the game.

Personally, Im taking a step back and focusing on "pure" gameplay at the moment. What makes a level fun, what makes a level irritating. And from getting a level to be fun first, pretty second Im sure I'll progress in that way.

Saying that, I still want to take on a mamoth project that would change the face of the game. Its just I don't want to lose sight of what is the most important thing. To have fun making fun levels.

What are your thoughts?

2009-11-05 12:41:00

Author:
wexfordian

Posts: 1904

I don't think so, but then again, I don't think that 'innovation' should be the goal when creating. I mean, it's great when there is something new and different, but overall, I just want a fun, quality experience.

2009-11-05 13:11:00

Author:
mrsupercomputer

Posts: 1335

Yes, but it's your fault Wex. You and your irritatingly epic and entertaining levels.

Seriously though, I think the game is changing in a lot of ways... some for the better, others not so much. For me, this has been true to one degree or another since I finished Midnight Gold Run. I found myself less concerned with what I wanted to create or even what would do well on Cool Pages, and more with what I thought would impress this community - LBPC. And no one wants to just rehash what everyone else has done or is doing, so I think we all (or most of us, probably) strive for some original thought or design or gameplay element.

But moreover, it seems to me that the online playing community has changed. Of course we all know that the game itself has changed and by extension the Cool Pages. But it seems like all (or most) of the numbers have been going down too... number of players online at any given time, numbers of plays it takes to get cemented on cool pages, numbers of total plays on a successful (top 5 pages) level, etc. I would have expected that the release/announcement of GOTY would have seen an up tick in all of these metrics, but it does not appear (to my arguably uneducated eye - I have not truly researched the validity of any of my claims here) to be the case.

But going back to myself... I find that: a) I want to top myself and my last success, and b) That I seem to crave what I can no longer have - that magic from the early days... much like an addict seeks to regain the euphoria of that first really great high. I've seen glimpses of it, but alas...

2009-11-05 13:15:00

Author:
v0rtex

Posts: 1878

I do think it's very hard to live up to peoples expectations, there are just so many great levels out there that when a new one is released by a well known author they are expected to be at the same level as others.

2009-11-05 13:41:00

Author:
TheFirstAvenger

Posts: 787

Good thoughts.. I'm hoping the fun factor takes care of the wow factor, but I know what you mean. To your point of how much x to get to x.

As much as I see being done, it sparks a whole bunch of cool ideas in my head that adds a trillion times more complexity to an already wacky idea. As well as once doing it you come up with even more wacky ideas.. It really makes level building quite complex to where I feel I am for the longest time, an engineer creating the working parts before I can go and make the cool stuff which now can take a ton longer in regards to using the 3d glitch and planning for it accordingly.

...but after thinking about it, it's all your fault wex. You raised the bar too high.. it's just too much. What were you thinking? We are all here just sitting in this dark cloud of 3d glitch out the waaazoo and fun platforming and going.. "Oh no... He didn't do that! What can I ever do to live up to that. I love this. I can see doing this in my next level. Like dude! What ARE YOU THINKING!! It's just too much!!!! ..and now I'm building my next level and I keep thinking up more and more stuff to add. It quite insane. I need help. Please shut off this machine.. I can't... I have to continue, but I can't go on. I need help... HELP ME!!!! <gasp> but the controller is stuck in my hand and I keep building and it keeps getting nuttier and I think no.. just put it down. Really it's too much, but look at that, it is just too freeeking cool. Oh.. if I add this there.. oh wow, too cool. I have to make it live YES I WILL MAKE IT LIVE !!!!!!!! Muuh ha ahaa ha haah ahah ha!!"

So well, I guess I don't see any problem at all wex.

Sorry it got crazy back there. Whew.. anybody have any pretzels?

2009-11-05 13:56:00

Author:
jwwphotos

Posts: 11383

When a level has what I expect in it, eg; some platformy bits, some enemies, a race and a boss- I don't think that it's a bad level because it's doing 'safe' ideas.

For me, high quality levels that carry on with the feel of the Mm story levels is a massive achievement irrelevant of how 'innovative' the mechanics you choose to use may be.

It may be a little off topic but i'd love to see an ingame Mm weekly level playlist.

Someone at Mm would glaze over the levels on cool page and cherry pick the 'effort' levels from the 'glitch/trick/bomb surival' levels and slowly, over time, form a hall of fame list on the info moon. These would be chronologically archived, of course. And they would probably have to do a retroactive super list which involves about 50 of the absolute-top-amazing levels since launch.

If they kept the levels lists up indefinatly, it would sort of become like an 'online campaign' for players to work their way through after they finish the story mode (if they don't feel like creating that is), made up of entirely guaranteed good levels.

Oop, driving lesson, brb 1 hour

2009-11-05 14:02:00

Author:
Asbestos101

Posts: 1114

I'm with you on this one!

I will speak for myself here, even if I'm not as good as you or other great LBP creators

It's been like 3 months I started my new level, and I just can't manage to finish it... I'm just blocked!
Why? I don't really know but it's like I'm feeling under pressure cause I want to make something good, that I will enjoy of course,
and that also players and most importantly you guys here will like.
Since I joined LBPC and discovered those great creators and levels, I just felt that I must to do more as the standard was high...

It's like :
"Isnt my level to short? Must I simplfy the design to gain some thermo space and make it longer?
Isn't the gameplay too passive? I really must find some original platforming ideas... Is it fun enough?
are people going to like the theme I choose? etc..."

And all those questions and thoughts avoid me to progress and to finish it,
and in the end, the "stress" takes over the pleasure and the fun of creating...

So sometimes I say to my self, what the hell, I'm not going to spend 8 months on a little level...! It's just a game.....

So when you say that the most important thing is to have fun creating, you're 100% right!
Anyway, I wish I'll finish my little level soon (even if it's not perfect

)

2009-11-05 14:02:00

Author:
dajdaj03

Posts: 1486

I would argue that creating good levels has always been difficult. Everything is a question of scale, talent and time. I think when a level tries to do too much at the same time, it ends up hurting itself in the long run because it becomes frustrating to work on.

For example here are some traits that are good for a level to have. If you attempt to have ALL of them, the level will take upwards to a year to finish.

Stunning visuals
Foolproof gameplay mechanics
Balanced difficulty
Original content and concepts
Creation tool innovation
Long length/sequels
Interesting story
Amazing bosses/enemies

It's important to prioritize what you want your level to end up with. Having one trait executed perfectly is better than having many traits executed poorly.

2009-11-05 14:27:00

Author:
Gilgamesh

Posts: 2536

i think gameplay should come first so glad to hear you headed that direction. Looking good is more like a bonus. When it comes down to it what is a game without game play you just got a picture you made or a story your telling. And its not too fun to walk through a picture down to a scoreboard. Some people have made some awsome levels that are just that pictures and you go in there and saw WOW to yourself becuase it is so impresive. But when it comes down to playing a game it should be something that should be competitive, addictive, and provide challenge. And you may bring your friends back there to say hey look how cool this looks. I have respect for people that can make great art, but in the end i will not return to this picture level becuase i didnt sit down in front of my tv and turn on the ps3 to look at pictures. I sat down to play a game and stimulate my brain a little by providing a new challenge to over come.

For example that 3D city level that came out recently was really an awesome acomplishment, but i probably will never load it up again. If i had to choose between playing that 30 time or some the ground is sinking race jump level, i am probably going to choose the later. I at least will have some goal to set my mind to, and feel a sense of acomplishment or a sense of failure after each play.

I was thinking a good way to judge if your level is game or a picture, would be to strip all the lighting effects, and revert everything to the basic materials. If it is no longer interesting to yourself or other people then what you got is just a picture to walkthrough. If you still got something that keeps people interested and entertained then you got yourself a game.

It all depends on what your trying to do, all somepeople are trying to do is make pictures, but if you are trying to make a game then it is something to keep in mind. And probably most people playing are looking to play a game rather than look at some pictures. If i want to look at pictures and hear a story i dont need to go through so much trouble as to turn on the ps3, when TV is already flooded with these experiances and if i wanted a story to read i would of probably gone to the library instead.

probably drifted a bit of topic but the creating a good level has only become easier since luanch due to the fact that some of tools have improved. If anything changes it is probably your mind changing and how you look at the game that changes.

2009-11-05 14:39:00

Author:
deboerdave

Posts: 384

Wex - it sounds like more you battling against yourself and your own talents more than an issue in general.

When you're extremely talented and are always trying to "out do" yourself, anything you do can become a burden.

My personal choice has been to always go in different directions rather than trying make my levels higher-quality continuously. Of course, I have limited talents visually so I just keep trying to find new gameplay ideas.

2009-11-05 15:56:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

Saying that, I still want to take on a mamoth project that would change the face of the game. Its just I don't want to lose sight of what is the most important thing. To have fun making fun levels.

What are your thoughts?

This is an expression of the very mentality that causes the problem. People should just let their imagination go wild and just make great levels without thinking recognition, revolution, making the next big thing, etc. It's all ego related because WE ARE RAISED LIKE THAT.

We are told we are unique, that sky is the limit, that we will go far in life (some parents are putting alot of butter on this one), you need to always climb in the business, you need to beat the next guy, etc. Everything is based on a ego-driven model of recognition and constant competition.

I just think our society in this regard is retarded. What we are truly looking for in life is happyness. Happyness comes from love and our sain interactions with others, our love for other people. Altruism, working for peace, respect, helping someone and the most important of it all imo: working on seperating ourselves from this stupid ego-based mentality we have.

Anyways, enough idealistic stuff for today. My point is that you should NOT worry about the next big thing and bringing the game to another level with your next creation. The place where our mentality becomes really stupid is that we think everything is exponential when quite nothing is. At some point we will not revolutionise anything in the game. And that's fine like that. What happens is that we shall learn to have fun and play great levels before searching for the new "wow".

You certainly have other goals you can explore, tackling other genres, difficulty levels, themes, visual styles, etc. Revolutionising the game isn't infinite but creativity in itself IS.

.

2009-11-05 18:10:00

Author:
RangerZero

Posts: 3901

Don't pressure yourself into a corner Wex, good ideas are elusive little brats when you're trying to force them out of your brain kicking and screaming.

And I'd take fun over innovation every time. Just make sure your next one is the funnest EVER EVER.

2009-11-05 21:11:00

Author:
julesyjules

Posts: 1156

I think the reason why good levels are so hard to make now is because you raised the bar too high, Wex.

2009-11-05 21:24:00

Author:
ARD

Posts: 4291

HAHA! What, is it too hard to compete with what we have now? Bomb survivals? Challenge levels? HAHAHA!! --Oh wait, you meant good levels. Sorry.

Yeah, it's become a little difficult to raise the bar nowadays. I seriously struggle when it comes to making up original gameplay elements. However, as far as visuals are concerned, well, I think the bar can be set even higher.

2009-11-05 21:31:00

Author:
KoRnDawwg

Posts: 1424

I 100% agree and know exactly where you're coming from.

It is a lot harder to 'impress' people nowadays. For me, it's not only in the sense that everythings moved on and there's some crazily good stuff out there that's wow'd people so much it would be hard to get that same kind of response...

But in the sense that people become familiar with your work, and with something like this game it is human nature to 'expect' continuous improvement. How many times have you said/heard/read 'I love it but I prefer your last level'. We're always comparing to what has come before.

Personally for me this is a problem because when it comes to the type of levels I want to create (fun platformers), I've reached the top of my talents, I simply cannot make levels 'better' than I already have. Sure I can probably make a level some people may prefer, but that's just what it would come down to, preference.

People say I should do something different and that my levels all feel similar...but personally, the levels I publish are the type that I enjoy creating. Sure, they're all similar in terms of that they're platformers, but I think they vary enough to make them all worth playing. I don't rewash ideas level after level. The essence may be the same (if you drill down to it the 90% of levels use the same concept really) but I think I throw enough stuff in there to make it different and fresh everytime.

Sometimes people just expect too much. They play a level and then get ridiculous expectations for that authors next creation. Not every level can blow peoples mind, it's just about having fun!

2009-11-05 21:36:00

Author:
jackofcourse

Posts: 1494

In the level I been currently making, a single player and I've been playing it safe with normal but fairly simple gameplay from the start. Now I'm reaching my goal of the end of the level, I've been trying to work up a few unique ideas and stuff just to top off the level so the people playing will feel satisfied. It hass put me off finishing the level as I can't seem to work it out.

I'm also just trying to out-do my previous evel which about 10/16 of the gameplay sections were my own ideas, because it was two player, so I could alter other people's ideas more than a normal single-player level. So I'm just trying to beat myself and it's just annoying me. I think I'll try to settle down and try to just finish it. I'm trying so hard to better myself and impress the surrounding people (LBPC) I'm near ruining it for myself.

2009-11-05 21:39:00

Author:
KQuinn94Z

Posts: 1758

To be honest I think there's only so many levels you can really build before needing some re inspiration. After publishing all the levels I have now I was happy because I'd ticked a bunch of boxes on cool concepts that I could fit into a level but I didn't have a clue how to do it all and I'd use so much energy coming up with ideas I really couldn't be arsed

So after some reinspiration (Listening to Johnee's ramblings

) I've gotten back into the swing of things and I'm creating my level which will be my first proper level

Of course I don't make good levels but I'm talking about good for me. So I've just created a whole set of concept ideas trying to toy with mechanisms and gameplay elements to try and find what was really fun and intuitive and I'm trying to wedge them into a level.

Maybe try it yourselves, come up with a storyboard of epic moments for a level and build them one at a time and you can even make a whole level out of that one concept like I've done so you really know how you can play with it. You don't have to release your experiments at all and can even just make them out of card.

Mess about and find new ideas. Chances are if its a new idea then it'll be made good, if not by you by someone who takes inspiration from your concept.

2009-11-05 22:09:00

Author:
Shermzor

Posts: 1330

I completely agree with the OP! Whenever i try to make a level that everyone will like, i get bored of it and it ends up taking space on my moon. Im sick and tired of spending a few weeks on a level that i had an EXTREMELY hard time on, just to have it shunned to the farthest corners of the cool pages. Im beggining to think why i even create levels because of this.

2009-11-05 22:15:00

Author:
grayspence

Posts: 1990

i was thinking the same exact thing. ive actually already started on a series myself. think ill go make my first blog on it! ^_^

2009-11-05 22:38:00

Author:
Littlebigdude805

Posts: 1924

For me, some of this is dependant on what motivates the creator. Why do creators spend dozens and dozens of hours building levels?

The Fame Game?
It's not unreasonable to assume that many creators enjoy the 7 days of fame. It's payback for their toil. It's satisfying.

Education?
Yup, it's true - creators are constantly learning their craft. From the very first time they managed to open a door with a button, to the first time a multi-function boss/puzzle works.

Entertainment?
Creating can be enjoyable. Years ago, many people were happy building Airfix models or solving jigsaw puzzles. These days, Sudoku satisfies many people, computer games satisfies others. LBP lets you enjoy yourself AND use your brain.

All the above are viable and acceptable. As to constantly pushing yourself and the pressure that involves: it's true - there's expectancy, there's comparisons with previous work etc. But, no matter what we all continue to create, and for whatever reasons, as long as the creator can TRY to have FUN while creating, then that will go a long way to ensure that the player has fun as well.

2009-11-05 22:46:00

Author:
MrsSpookyBuz

Posts: 1492

Wow, this is turning into a great debate here. Thanks for all the comments. I just put this out there to see what peoples opinions were really.

I think when it boils down to it, true inovation should come from neccessity to implement the gameplay you seek rather than build the gameplay around the innovation. Does this make sense?

So for example, instead of sitting down and going to yourself "right what can I introduce that is new to the game" and build around that, you should say to yourself "right, what would be fun, ok x would be fun, how do I change that to keep the fun but make it new"

For example, I played a level the other night made by a Japanese guy that had a section with a gameplay element I had never seen before. Now, at first, I thought to myself, wow, never seen that, its pretty cool, but soon after thought, well its actually only because it was new that I liked it. It actually wasn't very "fun" to play that section.

Sorry if this is starting to sound like a ramble. I just find all this very interesting. I've studied art and design for 4 years, and have been working in the design industry for another 5 years so I'm well used to being asked to "innovate". But its more the process as to how we all do it that I find intruiging.

2009-11-05 23:08:00

Author:
wexfordian

Posts: 1904

I totally agree. Just try to think of what's fun, and run with it. If something sounds fun, but it ends up being a lot of work.... well, then you need to decide if it's worth it. I build all my levels around what sounds like fun. Then, if people ask me how I did certain things I tell them... and hopefully that results in more fun.

2009-11-05 23:31:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

Yeah, it's become a little difficult to raise the bar nowadays. I seriously struggle when it comes to making up original gameplay elements. However, as far as visuals are concerned, well, I think the bar can be set even higher.

I'm in the opposite situation. I have plenty of ideas, and (IMHO) some of them are quite innovative. Mechanics are not a problem, but I want it to look good, too. I have a vision in my head how they should look, but when I try to build it I find out I don't have the right material, or I can't find a way to make it look good.

I guess it's because I'm spending too much time thinking, and not enough time actually making things and learning the tools. But I'm also a bit of a perfectionist, and seeing all those pretty levels out there has spoiled my senses.

For me, some of this is dependant on what motivates the creator. Why do creators spend dozens and dozens of hours building levels?

The Fame Game?
Education?
Entertainment?

A little of all of the above, for me. But mostly because I have an idea, and I want it to become real. And I build stuff I would like to play but isn't out there yet.

2009-11-06 11:48:00

Author:
Rogar

Posts: 2284

I always question was it worth the time and effort put into creating a level. It depends on what your trying to achive from it.

Im mostly interested in improving from my previous efforts. Its the same reason I continue to spend 2 hours a day in the gym. I always come back to lbp when im bored of other games as I enjoy the feeling of satisfaction when ive made something that is beyond what I thought my capabilities were.

Its fun just to show what youve made to your friends. Thats how I started my costumes level when I first purchased the game back in november and one of the main things that keeps me creating today.

2009-11-07 14:06:00

Author:
SteveBigGuns

Posts: 423

2009-11-07 16:44:00

Author:
RangerZero

Posts: 3901

Cool to see you're here! I didn't remember seeing you around. I played some of your levels yesterday and honestly, you can do great things! Keep up the good work.

.

Thanks! Im not on my laptop much at the moment. I only started to get into making gameplay based levels in june after my new ps3 arrived (the other broke at the start of march). Before that i was just making costumes levels and a few minigames as they were simple a fun to make. I thought it was time to try something new. Im really glad people like what I made as I never thought I would have made anything people would think is beyond mediocre.

2009-11-07 17:31:00

Author:
SteveBigGuns

Posts: 423

I understand the OP completely, Wex.

I've been making levels behind the scenes for months now, I've had like 3-4 versions of the same level before completely abandoning them in the end.
I'm a pretty slow creator and I have been doing new & unseen stuff which I was very proud of until it always seemed I was too slow (read: real life) to finish it and somebody came up with something simillar and published it first.

It is very hard to wow people these days and levels become old & outdated really, really fast!!
In my case: before I even publish the things.

* I remember being very proud of something I called "fake perspective", then the layer glitch came out and made it useless.

* I remember making these great looking sideway waterfalls, until someone aslo did it before I had the chance to publish and impressed the community first. (That one really bummed me out)

* The list goes on and on, really.

I don't create levels for the masses, I surely don't make levels with the "coowl pages" in mind, I create the for people I know a.k.a. you guys.
That said, you guys are a hard bunch to impress and you can't stand still for like 2 seconds, haha!!

If I had the chance, I would all drug you so I can make a level without the LBP-world around me evolving so fast.

2009-11-07 17:35:00

Author:
Zwollie

Posts: 2173

If I had the chance, I would all drug you so I can make a level without the LBP-world around me evolving so fast.

Yeah, no kidding. It's almost pointless to try and keep up. When I learned of the layer glitch, there went half of my moon right out the door.

Wex nailed it I think - the "wow" factor should be secondary to a level - if it comes out naturally as a result of what you're making, then it's going to work.

I think there's also room to maintain the status quo, to create simple, fun levels that feature gameplay we've seen before - and as long as you're creating something that you want to see, a setting that interests you, it's worthwhile, and I think also a sign that there will be an audience for it.

But I can't deny that it's far more difficult to make a level now because the watermark is so high. There's no point in trying to surpass it with every new level, I think we're all really good at certain things, and we should stick to what we know.

EvilPanda and myself are polar opposite creators. He makes amazing, pure, abstract gameplay. The level themes are geometric shape motifs and color palettes. I couldn't do anything like that in my wildest dreams. It would come out so dreadfully. It's simple, pure gameplay, and it definitely gets the "wow" reaction out of me.
What I do is set the scene, try to create a story with a grounded setting that's fun to "live in" for a few minutes. you're not going to find any novel gameplay mechanics in my levels. If there's a "wow" moment, it's probably the result of old-fashioned buildup, getting you excited about something before it comes.

We shouldn't try to strive for a new watermark with every level we do. Maybe the OCCASIONAL one. We can't stop each other from continuing to push the envelope, and hopefully we won't ever stop.

2009-11-07 23:22:00

Author:
Teebonesy

Posts: 1937

Entertainment?
Creating can be enjoyable. Years ago, many people were happy building Airfix models or solving jigsaw puzzles. These days, Sudoku satisfies many people, computer games satisfies others. LBP lets you enjoy yourself AND use your brain.

I love spending hours on something complicated to see it work as I intended in the long run, rather than watering it down to make it easier and quicker.

An example being my Zero Punctuation boss fight, I was so chuffed when I got that working how I wanted.

It's the reason why I used to spend a stupid amount of hours buidling ridiculous stuff on garrys mod www.youtube.com/asbestos101

2009-11-08 03:14:00

Author:
Asbestos101

Posts: 1114

I love spending hours on something complicated to see it work as I intended in the long run, rather than watering it down to make it easier and quicker.[...]

This!
Never let your imagination be limited by what's "easier to do" or what's "realistic". Looking back, in my first ever level I made a boss that's several stories high, with animated limbs, where you actually go "inside" of the boss to beat it. To top it off, the boss was based off of the Clockwork Beast from MtG. That was pretty overambitious I think, yet I never thought about that for a second. I just concentrated on making it happen.

2009-11-08 13:50:00

Author:
Gilgamesh

Posts: 2536

I remember months ago thinking that this kind of thing would happen at some point. When people stopped being impressed with platforming and pretty scenery and needed something new to find a level interesting.

Glad to see that the majority haven't got to that stage yet. It will get there eventually though I guess. Suppose it depends on how well Mm support the game with new tools etc.

As for creating, I've never been one to follow the innovation route. While I don't like using other people's ideas, very few things seen in LBP aren't at least inspired by something else. 'Fun' has always been my no. 1 goal. Though that may be because I'm a crap artist and not technically minded!

2009-11-08 16:30:00

Author:
Matt 82

Posts: 1096

I just think our society in this regard is retarded.

.

That is the best quote ever

Society is retarded Ranger

Icey

2009-11-08 16:38:00

Author:
Coxy224

Posts: 2645

That is the best quote ever

Society is retarded Ranger

Icey

lol I don't know if you're mocking me or not

(can't read in-between the lines deep enough, I'm part of that society remember...)

.

2009-11-08 17:04:00

Author:
RangerZero

Posts: 3901

This is a great thread... as a human I was born obsolete! The things I value are deemed useless in this life... To that end, as a creator the things I spent countless hours on in my moon... very rarely see the light of day... perhaps there's the real reason its called a moon.

Hel! Yes the bars too high. I don't believe Mm can keep pace with it... Just give me a striking level, a world unto itself, and gameplay (the more individualistic the better).

2009-11-08 21:20:00

Author:
Gravel

Posts: 1308

Levels in LittleBigPlanet are like books. Books have been written for thousands of years, and yet more get churned out every year. They don't necessarily get BETTER. Just different subjects and content.

Some are romance novels, some are comic books, some are fairy tales.... and a few are masterpieces.

... and there's a market for virtually every one of them.

I don't think creating a good level is becoming more difficult at all - except for the few who are always pushing to be better. And based on cool pages, I CERTAINLY don't think it's the audience that are pushing us to do better.

Design levels that are original and fun - they don't need to necessarily get more and more complex.

2009-11-09 00:13:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

Also, focusing too much on inovation can give you a worse end product. The better level isn't necessarily the one that does something new or different.

.

2009-11-09 01:13:00

Author:
RangerZero

Posts: 3901

This is a great discussion

I definitely see where youre coming from Wex.
For me I think what causes creating to be alot harder then it should is my own stubbornness!

For example im my level the 3 wizards my first level. I really wanted it to be different from any other level in that it had powerups and all sorts of non linear gameplay/puzzle solving...for the most part I think I achieved my goal. But getting to the finished product was preety hard...because I was stubborn. Half of the time I spent making this level was on a game mechanic that didn't even make it to the final version of the level...flying. I refused to beleive that I couldn't incoporate a good illusion of flight in lbp. I did all sorts of things...like placing sensors that would shift the enitire level vertically and horizontally simultaneously when the player jumped...It never quite worked right.

And its the feeling of not wanting to be beaten by the editor that kept me on it...not having fun...but feeling frustrated that what I envisioned might not be possible. This is when creating is hard for me...because I'm never short of "over ambitious" concepts but having to cut things out of my vision is very dissapointing to me.

The same thing is happenning to me in part 2 (you'd think I would of learnt

) But I won't let it go on for as long

2009-11-09 15:01:00

Author:
dsgeeno1

Posts: 76

I'm a pretty slow creator and I have been doing new & unseen stuff which I was very proud of until it always seemed I was too slow (read: real life) to finish it and somebody came up with something simillar and published it first.

It is very hard to wow people these days and levels become old & outdated really, really fast!!
In my case: before I even publish the things.

* I remember being very proud of something I called "fake perspective", then the layer glitch came out and made it useless.

I can relate to you, but there is a bright side to this: it takes one level idea I have to implement from my long list.

By the way, the fake perspective, is it like a parallax scroll in the olden days? I think it would still be cool to implement, despite the layer glitch.

Levels in LittleBigPlanet are like books. Books have been written for thousands of years, and yet more get churned out every year. They don't necessarily get BETTER. Just different subjects and content.

I disagree. Books have existed for ages, and the basic tricks of the writing trade have been figured out and documented by now. LBP levels are more like movies, where CGI keeps getting better and better, and old movies can look amateurish to younger audiences.

Of course, the less special effects you have, the better the movie ages. You could conclude from this that the less your LBP level depends on visuals, the better it will age, too.

2009-11-09 16:03:00

Author:
Rogar

Posts: 2284

Which is, sort of, exactly the point I was saying.... the "foundation" of a good book/movie is the premise - not whether it has a million dollar budget. And there is virtually unlimited subjects that can be translated into a book/movie/game.

Ungreth, I think, did a fantastic job with his "Gothic Reverie" series in showing that ANYTHING can become a game and the subject matter can be intriguing.

Whatever media you choose, the principle is the same. I picked books because they have been around for a lot longer than movies, and people are still thinking of things to write about.

2009-11-09 16:08:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

Sure, I agree with that, there's always more stories to tell. I just felt it wasn't the complete truth.

If you have a book, or a movie, about people, you just need good writing (dialog), no CGI required. But if things become a bit more fantastic, you run the risk of looking dated as special effects and such progress. Same thing with LBP levels: as people become better at creating good-looking scenery, the bar is raised, and it becomes more difficult to create levels that rely on scenery. Sure, you don't have to look as good as the rest, but it lessens the experience, much like muppets or spaceships on strings won't impress a youth accustomed to CGI. You'd better have really good story or gameplay to offset this.

2009-11-09 16:31:00

Author:
Rogar

Posts: 2284

I can relate to you, but there is a bright side to this: it takes one level idea I have to implement from my long list.

By the way, the fake perspective, is it like a parallax scroll in the olden days? I think it would still be cool to implement, despite the layer glitch.

I disagree. Books have existed for ages, and the basic tricks of the writing trade have been figured out and documented by now. LBP levels are more like movies, where CGI keeps getting better and better, and old movies can look amateurish to younger audiences.

Of course, the less special effects you have, the better the movie ages. You could conclude from this that the less your LBP level depends on visuals, the better it will age, too.

Sorry to step in but movies are totally hitting the "visual/sound" plateau. Special effects are at their best now. It will not improve since we can already do whatener we need. This is also why Hollywood did drop in revenue quite alot since the years 2k. They can't rely only on special effects anymore, people are starting to see something else in movies because special effects aren't topping the last ones already. Also, 2012 will probably to most exagerrated "be all end all" special effect movie of forever. You won't see much better after that and until movies actually are displayed into your mind or something.

.

2009-11-09 16:33:00

Author:
RangerZero

Posts: 3901

To get the same wow factor from people as you could 6-8 months ago you need to really come up with something innovative.

Gone are the days when you could hide pistons and stuff behind a wall and players get confused by how the technical stuff was 'invisible'

But now, its not a case of creating a master piece, just something new that hasn't been done before, like some new puzzle or contraption of some kind, in fact, now i'm motivated to create a level....

2009-11-09 17:20:00

Author:
springs86

Posts: 785

You'd better have really good story or gameplay to offset this.

Exactly what I'm suggesting. You have multiple directions you can go - you can keep trying to push the envelope with graphics and wow factor, or you can go sideways by using your imagination to create new content and innovative gameplay.

Some of the most addictive levels out there are well-designed ideas - such as CompherMC's Brain Chain or Wexfordians "Freakie Frankies Fro".

Personally, since I stink at graphics I'm always looking for new gameplay elements or interesting ideas.

Sorry to step in but movies are totally hitting the "visual/sound" plateau. Special effects are at their best now. It will not improve since we can already do whatener we need. This is also why Hollywood did drop in revenue quite alot since the years 2k.

I was just thinking about this the other day when I was watching Transformers II. The special effects just don't appeal to me as much as they used to, and lack of a good story is really affecting my view of movies.

2009-11-09 18:03:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

I was in the wrong or *** end of the movie business for thirteen years... I have a good friend who can not stand movies any longer because nothing is real... And movies now lack a realism... While there is still art... it is singularly of the CGI variety... Gone are the days of the elaborate set designs, puppets, muppets, and strings... I rather prefer my 'Empire Yoda' -- that puppet could act circles around Hamill... I like my stuntman singed... I like to feel the heat of the explosion--not just see the slowmotion gernade's eye-view... the art of the movie stunt is disappearing.

My point I guess, is technology for technologies' sake leaves me hollow... with that said I am now beginning to learn to manipulate the layer glitch because it seems to me... ( and I am a nobody creator) the layer glitch should be a cleavage plane for the community. Levels in my mind are either pre- or post LG. Not sure I would feel right releasing a level now without it... for when done right the effect is something all together different than anything that came before... I think layer manipulation is now common place if not expected for your standard level.

So by that measure alone levels are getting harder to build... audiences are getting harder to please.

2009-11-10 02:15:00

Author:
Gravel

Posts: 1308

I am now beginning to learn to manipulate the layer glitch because it seems to me... ( and I am a nobody creator) the layer glitch should be a cleavage plane for the community. Levels in my mind are either pre- or post LG. Not sure I would feel right releasing a level now without it... for when done right the effect is something all together different than anything that came before... I think layer manipulation is now common place if not expected for your standard level.

So by that measure alone levels are getting harder to build... audiences are getting harder to please.

I have mixed feeling about this. On one hand I agree it's getting "expected" for your level to be a "top notch one" visually so the bad side is that it's less accessible to make a visually stunning level. On the good side, the bar is high anyways, layer glitch or not. Some people are tremendously talented.

Another point is the reaction of Media Molecule to this. On the bad side they might think it's "unbalancing the community" and then they would fix it. On the good side they might think it really brings something to the table and they would add a background maker feature, accessible to everyone.

So yeah, I can go in any of those directions really.

.

2009-11-10 03:30:00

Author:
RangerZero

Posts: 3901

My point I guess, is technology for technologies' sake leaves me hollow... with that said I am now beginning to learn to manipulate the layer glitch because it seems to me... ( and I am a nobody creator) the layer glitch should be a cleavage plane for the community. Levels in my mind are either pre- or post LG. Not sure I would feel right releasing a level now without it... for when done right the effect is something all together different than anything that came before... I think layer manipulation is now common place if not expected for your standard level.

So by that measure alone levels are getting harder to build... audiences are getting harder to please.

Man, you're speaking my language. Both regarding movies as well as levels. right now the layer glitch does seem to be a kind of a deciding factor as far as a level's "production design" and "production value" are concerned. LG levels seem to feel a bit more "high budget", I guess. This is kind of a problem because for one, it's another thermo limitation, and secondly, it's an absolute nightmare to implement. But I'm with you - now that I know how to use it, there's NO WAY I would make a level without it. Custom backgrounds are a major way that I define the mood and setting of my levels. I don't think there's even a chance I'll ever build anything in this game without using the layer glitch in some fashion. If it was patched out of the game I'd be devastated. I only hope Mm learns from this and gives players a built-in custom background creator at some point so we don't have to go so far out of our way to create backgrounds.

In no way does the layer glitch decide a level's worth. But in terms of "keeping up" right now, it's becoming the status quo to implement SOME kind of custom background. A level feels just that much more empty without it. While I admit that I wouldn't make a level now without it, I'm not sure this is a good thing at all - as it's making it more difficult to make levels, it's limiting the thermo space even more.

@RangerZero - 2012 is definitely not the upcoming high water mark for special effects - Jame's Cameron's Avatar will be. This will be the effects oscar-winner and at least from a visual effects standpoint, the most talked-about film for at least the next couple of years. It shows that even at a point where we seem to be reaching saturation of "CG" movies, where the CG just makes us yawn instead of getting us excited, that you can still be progressive, you can still push the envelope and create a new way of doing something, giving the audience something they haven't seen before.

I don't think that CG is a good metaphor for visually stimulating levels in LBP. Because essentially EVERYTHING in a level is hand-crafted. Although I agree that movies are a closer analogy than books, because film is a relatively new medium, and we're just reaching a point where it's hard to truly innovate in film.

I love thinking of LBP as its own miniature artistic world, with the "LBP level" being a new medium, and the popit being the tools of our trade, with level-creation being the "craft". It's really fun to be a part of, and you run into all sorts of miniature versions of the same milestones of real-life counterparts. Just as we're dealing with right now - the point at which innovation is on the other side of a tremendously high wall.

2009-11-10 03:56:00

Author:
Teebonesy

Posts: 1937

2012 is definitely not the upcoming high water mark for special effects - Jame's Cameron's Avatar will be.

This is subjective anyways but 2012 relies quite totally on special effects and it's realistic style instead of fantasy like Avatar. But yeah, Avatar is also a big movie but it's not based as much on special effects.

I don't think that CG is a good metaphor for visually stimulating levels in LBP. Because essentially EVERYTHING in a level is hand-crafted. Although I agree that movies are a closer analogy than books, because film is a relatively new medium, and we're just reaching a point where it's hard to truly innovate in film.

I don't CG as something particular. Be it CG, physical decorations, or anything other technical way to proceed, the fact is that today we can visually reproduce anything we want to perfection except humans. Even in 1996 (or whatever the year it was) nobody doubt the water in Titanic wasn't real.
We ARE reaching a visual plateau in special effect because you can't do better than real life but only reproduce it. Right now we are at "real life" level so nothing can top it.

Now the parallel I make with LBP is that with the layer glitch and extremely talented people out there, we are soon reaching some visual plateau too. We won't top the best looking levels, we will only DIFFERENT levels that are equally good looking. We still are not exactly at that point though.

.

2009-11-10 05:25:00

Author:
RangerZero

Posts: 3901

This thread reminds me of another particular game that had the same thing happen to it LOOONG ago: Roller Coaster Tycoon 2. At another site I frequent to (called New Element), the emphasis is user-created theme parks. The amount of work put into most of those parks takes MONTHS even YEARS to finish. And, on another note, the bar is set so high there that there's NO WAY for any new people to get in. Everything from uber-realistic detail to multitudes of hacks to even "staged" development plans are poured excessively into these, and I think the same thing is going for LBP.

Now, don't get me wrong. There's still a wide gap before every creative juice is spent. Heck, all of the levels I haven't published yet are LOADED with innovations not many people know about. The hoverboard? Sure, they can have rockets... but that's a "rocket"-board. Heli's? Same thing. UFOs? Hmm... never thought of that. <--ZING! A new idea, just waiting to happen!

The problem I see in most levels are the exploits of certain glitches and the commonality widely expressed on the Cool Pages. I mean, whatever happened to levels like "Jack McSetback" or "Oz World"? Those levels were awesome!! I mean, sure, there's no "cow glitch" or "multi-layer" thing or "3D" blah, but they're fun! I wish ideas like those were exploited more than falling bombs or impossible jumps or, dare I say, "H4H".

I think it's those with real cool ideas (can't name 'em all... too many!) that are having the uncertainty that their level will, say, not get on "Cool Pages" or that they may get a (:eek: gasp!) a 3-star rating. Don't be so shy! Throw whatever you have into the level and show it to THE WORLD!!! Because who cares if it isn't "groundbreaking" or "glitched"? It's a game, not a lifestyle. So build whatever you want; who cares if some hate text or a bad rating from an awful rating system sneak in?

2009-11-10 06:59:00

Author:
Outlaw-Jack

Posts: 5757

Exactly what I'm suggesting. You have multiple directions you can go - you can keep trying to push the envelope with graphics and wow factor, or you can go sideways by using your imagination to create new content and innovative gameplay.

Personally, since I stink at graphics I'm always looking for new gameplay elements or interesting ideas.

Oh, I recently played Destiny, I thought that was pretty.

But I'm afraid if your level doesn't match the current graphical standards, its innovative gameplay will just not be seen. Again, like in the movies.

I was in the wrong or *** end of the movie business for thirteen years... I have a good friend who can not stand movies any longer because nothing is real... And movies now lack a realism... While there is still art... it is singularly of the CGI variety... Gone are the days of the elaborate set designs, puppets, muppets, and strings... I rather prefer my 'Empire Yoda' -- that puppet could act circles around Hamill... I like my stuntman singed... I like to feel the heat of the explosion--not just see the slowmotion gernade's eye-view... the art of the movie stunt is disappearing.

I agree that a wellcrafted set or puppet has its charm, but we grew up with those. Look at old black and white movies, it takes getting used to, before you can appreciate them.

My point I guess, is technology for technologies' sake leaves me hollow... with that said I am now beginning to learn to manipulate the layer glitch because it seems to me... ( and I am a nobody creator) the layer glitch should be a cleavage plane for the community. Levels in my mind are either pre- or post LG. Not sure I would feel right releasing a level now without it... for when done right the effect is something all together different than anything that came before... I think layer manipulation is now common place if not expected for your standard level.

I haven't felt pressured to use the layer glitch yet, the "3D" levels just add a different backdrop. And while I understand the technique, for now I am still in the purist camp, sticking to the regular 3 layers. I can see myself using this glitch on a small area in a level, to achieve a specific effect, but I sure hope the layer glitch doesn't become expected.

2009-11-10 11:55:00

Author:
Rogar

Posts: 2284

But I'm afraid if your level doesn't match the current graphical standards, its innovative gameplay will just not be seen. Again, like in the movies.

Ok, smarty pants - then explain the whole "bomb survival", "floor is sinking" and "50 junps" levels that are getting 50,000+ plays.

And thank you - yes, my levels actually look pretty decent even with my lack of graphical prowess.... but mostly because I'm decent at lighting. Turns out if you turn off the main lights and shine different colored lights on everything, it makes up for lack of drawing talent.

2009-11-10 13:35:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

Turns out if you turn off the main lights and shine different colored lights on everything, it makes up for lack of drawing talent.

Oh no!! You told everyone the secret! Cats out of the bag now

2009-11-10 13:36:00

Author:
wexfordian

Posts: 1904

Ok, smarty pants - then explain the whole "bomb survival", "floor is sinking" and "50 junps" levels that are getting 50,000+ plays.

You got me there.

Alright, quick and hectic gameplay is an exception.

2009-11-10 13:43:00

Author:
Rogar

Posts: 2284

2009-11-12 07:21:00

Author:
poorjack

Posts: 1806

ok, its story time i guess. Todays story "Mythicos: Poorjack's pile of accomplishment that has made him depressed" My Mythicos series... Maybe well known, maybe not... Ive spent countless days, months on the series, and to what end? I get nothing in return, except a "good job" "loved the level" and the occasional "your level is crap, i hate you and want to kill your family, Jack!" so im finnally finished (almost) with Mythicos IV, and i dont even want to release it. Im so burnt out i cant bring myself to even show it to the community. The feeling of excitement and anxiousness i felt with Mythicos I and II are gone. Im only filled with the thought of KNOWING i am getting 4 stars and 4000 plays. What you are saying about creators block is true, but also i believe creators are getting burnt out. Im even thinking of deleting this whole 3 month Mythicos IV project from my moon all together and working on something simple like a Mario type level. I just dont have the motivation... Lets hope water pack brings back the spark.
That would be too bad.... I love this series. If it helps, the last 2 made a lasting impression on me.

But I definately understand the feeling of putting TONS of work into a level and just getting..... tired....

I've been working on a new level for a long time now - but I don't do it like I used to. I draw little bits at a time, build a small section, put some decorations on. MAYBE 1 hour a day at most. My last 3 levels have each taken me a LONG time to build.

2009-11-12 13:22:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

That would be too bad.... I love this series. If it helps, the last 2 made a lasting impression on me.

But I definitely understand the feeling of putting TONS of work into a level and just getting..... tired....

I've been working on a new level for a long time now - but I don't do it like I used to. I draw little bits at a time, build a small section, put some decorations on. MAYBE 1 hour a day at most. My last 3 levels have each taken me a LONG time to build.

I agree... it would be a shame not to release it.

As far as getting a bit burnt out... yeah, I was in the same boat. I sorta over did it with the number of hours per day this summer. I took quite a long break and wasn't until helping Morgana figure out some stuff in her level a few weeks ago, that I even went into create mode. Seeing what she was doing as well as having the luxury of playing around with her in beta really gave me the spark I needed.

(back on topic)
So I have been back working on my next level, but it is difficult. It might take longer than my last one and that took around 2.5 months. I still love doing it when I am inspired, but I don't do the same amount of hours per week as I used to. I might do an hour or two ...and sometimes that is just staring at the screen and sketching out some stuff.

I think with some of the ideas I have been working on, I have just made it more complicated on myself. It makes me think through things that much more in trying to recreate that vision. I think though that is normal as we keep learning and perfecting what we can achieve.

I think if OC would come out soon as in this month, that would be quite a bit of the spark we all need. Just to be able to visit each other or possibly do a co-op level is such an amazing thing.

2009-11-12 14:10:00

Author:
jwwphotos

Posts: 11383

I still want to take on a mamoth project that would change the face of the game. Its just I don't want to lose sight of what is the most important thing. To have fun making fun levels.

What are your thoughts?

Having fun making levels is the face of the game.

I'm just getting started my friend. And I dream in create mode.

2009-11-12 14:22:00

Author:
IStwisted

Posts: 428

ok, its story time i guess. Todays story "Mythicos: Poorjack's pile of accomplishment that has made him depressed" My Mythicos series... Maybe well known, maybe not... Ive spent countless days, months on the series, and to what end? I get nothing in return, except a "good job" "loved the level" and the occasional "your level is crap, i hate you and want to kill your family, Jack!" so im finnally finished (almost) with Mythicos IV, and i dont even want to release it. Im so burnt out i cant bring myself to even show it to the community. The feeling of excitement and anxiousness i felt with Mythicos I and II are gone. Im only filled with the thought of KNOWING i am getting 4 stars and 4000 plays. What you are saying about creators block is true, but also i believe creators are getting burnt out. Im even thinking of deleting this whole 3 month Mythicos IV project from my moon all together and working on something simple like a Mario type level. I just dont have the motivation... Lets hope water pack brings back the spark.

Do not create like it's a duty. Create to have fun. Creating a level and publishing it is like giving something to someone.
Don't give because you expect a return. Give because you want to give and that's all. Take it easy, don't make it a burden. Take a break if needed, etc. I would like to play your new Mythicos though

2009-11-12 15:23:00

Author:
RangerZero

Posts: 3901

Having fun making levels is the face of the game.

I'm just getting started my friend. And I dream in create mode.

Making levels, for me, isn't so much about what others think or how many hearts or plays it gets. I also dream in create mode, which I think is what the intro to the game shows. You remember the part where everybody is dreaming LBP stickers.

So I don't create for the kudos; I create for the sheer fun of excercising my imagination and my reasoning skills.

2009-11-12 22:54:00

Author:
thanatos989

Posts: 248

I dream in create mode - that's why it takes me so long to produce anything.... WAKE UP!!!! Actually, I'm finding it hard to even get into create mode these days, my time available for playing LBP is absolutely minimal ATM, and I can't do anything without a good few hours solid - I have to get into my stride before anything happens.

With regards to the rest of the thread... it seems that many people are equating "something good" with "something innovative". This is far from the case. Obviously seeing something you've never seen before has extra wow factor, but you can get just as much by taking standard, stock ideas and just implementing them particularly well, or putting a slight twist on them (snakes on a dame, OH NO!). You don't have to innovate to be good. You don't even have to innovate to be original and unique.

I personally think there is plenty of mileage in the basics of LBP, and there is certainly plenty more innovation to squeezed out of what we have. Certainly the bar has been raised from the early days, but that just means you have more quality sources to pilfer inspiration from

2009-11-12 23:05:00

Author:
rtm223

Posts: 6497

Nah, not for me. Not in the way it's being talked about here. I don't usually worry about what's being done by other people or what other people will consider good. I just make what I want to make, what I think is fun and entertaining. I do sometimes worry about if and when I'm gonna get another wexfordian or mrsupercomputer level. They keep the blood flowing. I need one NOW!

2009-11-13 03:16:00

Author:
Reef1978

Posts: 527

I do sometimes worry about if and when I'm gonna get another wexfordian or mrsupercomputer level. They keep the blood flowing. I need one NOW!

Send them pizza... lots and lots of pizza!

2009-11-13 05:00:00

Author:
jwwphotos

Posts: 11383

Send them pizza... lots and lots of pizza!

You mean I can get more levels out of them and the joy of sending dozens of unauthorized pizzas to someone's house? Where's that Papa Johns button...

2009-11-13 07:36:00

Author:
Reef1978

Posts: 527

The assumption seems to be that authors create levels for the enjoyment of the community at large, but for how many authors is this really true?

I can spend 100 hours making a level that hardly anyone online will play; the last level I published still has only 3 plays. I realized that if I wasn't making levels for my own satisfaction, or for the satisfaction of my close friends and family, it simply wasn't worth it. And although I could be wrong, I think my experience is common. And maybe that's the way LBP was intended to be used?

So I agree with the premise, but perhaps not in the same sense as it was originally stated. Yes, the standard of levels is high, but it is so high that for most users it becomes irrelevant. Because for about 15 minutes after you publish a new level, a handful of people will play it, and after that it will effectively vanish from history where the online community is concerned. So the satisfaction you get for authoring a level can't really come from there.

2009-11-14 01:00:00

Author:
zabel99

Posts: 179

Most of the fun I've had is long gone. Not because the game itself grew old, but because I realized my motivation behind making levels wasn't to enjoy myself, but instead to impress others. I'm not ashamed to admit it. Most of my levels were created before May, and I haven't played the game much since then. But, I do come back occasionally because the community is nice. I have some great friends in LBP.

I also think the gameplay in LittleBigPlanet is stale. No matter how good a level may be, I never have that much fun playing it. The creation mode is excellent, but the actual game is crap. Without the editor, I think most would agree that it is a crappy Mario-esque failure of a game.

This is honestly how I feel... I hope I won't get flamed now. XD

2009-11-14 03:19:00

Author:
TheJollyRajah

Posts: 466

duh it would suck without the editor
that's like saying this gun would suck without ammo
*flame flame flame*

yea i admit once MNR and all the big titles of 2010 come out a lot of us wont be around as much. That's life, I hope to see all of you at MNR central at that point BTW, this community rocks

. Buuuuuuuut back on topic.

I do feel like its not worth the countless hours just to impress afew people. I think that feeling of hopelessness would go away if people would just get together more often and play multiplayer levels and slap each other around a bit. Its a great way to rejuvenate and you can just work on levels bit by bit and play LBP in moderation. That's the method Im using now and its great, the game just doesn't get stale when played this way.

2009-11-14 03:47:00

Author:
Littlebigdude805

Posts: 1924

I hope to see all of you at MNR central at that point BTW

I still honestly don't find much appeal in MNR.

As far as other games, yeah, I took a break from LBP for a week to play Dragon Age: Origins. I beat it, now I'm back to LBP.

I'll do the same thing when Mass Effect 2 comes out. Other games don't "take me away from LBP", they just "take me away from LBP for a week". It's not like I "move on" to them.

2009-11-14 04:13:00

Author:
Jagrevi

Posts: 1154

I also think the gameplay in LittleBigPlanet is stale. No matter how good a level may be, I never have that much fun playing it. The creation mode is excellent, but the actual game is crap. Without the editor, I think most would agree that it is a crappy Mario-esque failure of a game.

This is honestly how I feel... I hope I won't get flamed now. XD

What the hell is this kind of reasoning? All games become crappy when you remove their main point. LBP without the creation mode, the user levels of course would be crap! Uncharted without guns too! Gran Turismo without cars! Common there, it's an integral part of the game and one of the main points of its identity.

.

2009-11-14 04:17:00

Author:
RangerZero

Posts: 3901

I still honestly don't find much appeal in MNR.

As far as other games, yeah, I took a break from LBP for a week to play Dragon Age: Origins. I beat it, now I'm back to LBP.

I'll do the same thing when Mass Effect 2 comes out. Other games don't "take me away from LBP", they just "take me away from LBP for a week". It's not like I "move on" to them.

This.

Except the games.

2009-11-14 04:40:00

Author:
TheFirstAvenger

Posts: 787

Wellll I saw the Qore episode and some E3 videos and it just brought back all those amazing memories of Roller Coaster Tycoon 3, Mario cart, and LBP. wrapped into one game. Its no LBP of course, but it looks fun when you only want to spend half an hour on a course and can make such amazing landscape. What I'm hoping though is there will come a day when they patch some kinda Spore-esque building/scenery editor system. Then ide die happy. But as usual, i have high hopes

2009-11-14 05:22:00

Author:
Littlebigdude805

Posts: 1924

I create LBP levels mostly because it's fun, but also because I like playing those levels with other people, and for other people to play. Creating a level on LBP, then only playing it by yourself, just is a lot less fun to me. The thing is, my levels don't get played, even if I put them in the Level Showcase forum - For example, for 'Race through the forest', it got to about 48 plays, and then nobody played it anymore. This happened with all my levels.

I mean, once I have created a level, i play it a few times - and then i'm done. It just sits there on My Moon, and I seldom play it again. And only a few other people get to see it. That just isn't worth spending lots of hours creating a level to me.

Could you people perhaps help me to get these levels played more?

2009-11-14 13:52:00

Author:
robbit10

Posts: 450

OH Yeah. A level I made would be AMAZING then, but now would be awful.

2009-11-14 14:10:00

Author:
chezhead

Posts: 1063

I think that whats waring off is the 'wow' factor. By that I mean, most gameplay mechanics have been used, so I rarely get a warm glowy feeling entirely from impresive mechanics...

What would impress me? Original scenery, maybe even something that doesn't look like the Mm levels! Humour, teebonesy's and juleysjule's level have always been my favourites, 'cause they're funny. A story line would be nice too. Julesyjule's levels are kinda carried along by the star wars story line, but it keeps bringing me back for more! (and there's alot of fresh witty dialogue in their too)

2009-11-14 14:39:00

Author:
chimpskylark

Posts: 335

Could you people perhaps help me to get these levels played more?

There should be a tutorial somewhere on the forums on how to get on the cool pages for about a week using a republishing trick.

2009-11-14 15:28:00

Author:
Jagrevi

Posts: 1154

Wow, what happened to this thread... after reading the last page I found nary a thread of wex's original question. May I just re-iterate: yes.

2009-11-14 17:10:00

Author:
Gravel

Posts: 1308

does anyone else seem to suffer from spending ages on a level , only for it to crash. for some reason when I have almost finished a level and go into create mode it blocks me from getting onto it saying random error message.

this has happened too often, feel cursed when making levels

2009-11-14 17:48:00

Author:
mystical_monkey

Posts: 1

ive never gotten 50 plays before

just keep truckin along though.

2009-11-14 17:55:00

Author:
Littlebigdude805

Posts: 1924

ive never gotten 50 plays before

just keep truckin along though.

Do know how to republish onto the cool pages?

2009-11-14 17:58:00

Author:
Jagrevi

Posts: 1154

I've never gotten 50 plays either. Just published a level today (which I guess I must have spent a long time on since I started seeing symptoms of the "160-hour bug"). It got 4 plays and doesn't look like it will be getting more.

Do know how to republish onto the cool pages?

The republishing trick is kinda cheap imo. Like cutting in line, forcing yourself to the front of a queue. Or like *bump*ing a topic on an online forum. Ain't gonna resort to tactics like that just to get my levels played.

2009-11-14 23:27:00

Author:
zabel99

Posts: 179

Do know how to republish onto the cool pages?

yea but it hardly gets me anyway, maybe ten more plays, maybe im not doing right. Ill go check out that thread.

2009-11-14 23:35:00

Author:
Littlebigdude805

Posts: 1924

Regarding the original question; no, it's not. What was good 6 month ago is still good. What was easy to do is still easy to do and what was hard is still hard.
It's just becoming harder to make innovative levels and the expectations of people are much higher.
I don't think water is going to change much, but at least we will see new looking levels and some new gameplay mechanics.

2009-11-14 23:52:00

Author:
Syroc

Posts: 3193

Genius always finds itself a generation too soon.

Gameplay-wise I think is harder to achieve wow-wise nowadays, but I dont see an end in sight to the potential of creating a visual/complex mechanism or form of entertainment, level-wise. Depends how you look at it.

If you look at it as creating a level, then it may become a bit difficult to sustain your ongoing trend of creating new and innovative creations. If you see it as a canvas, nothing more, with the unlimited capabilities that of the creation tools then - HEYO I forgot what I was saying.

But I'm sure it'll all work out in the end :] My minds like a glass overflowing with water [ideas] that I'll probably never get to doing.

2009-11-17 05:05:00

Author:
Voodeedoo

Posts: 724

Just wait and see. Creativity has it's phases. I have a feeling that by around the beginning of January we'll be seeing something truely amazing...

2009-11-17 07:01:00

Author:
Outlaw-Jack

Posts: 5757

Just wait and see. Creativity has it's phases. I have a feeling that by around the beginning of January we'll be seeing something truely amazing...

Well i feel that although gameplay and complexity has probably reached its limit with lbp... i still feel there are very few levels lacking a good story.

The story element is something im going to be focusing on my next project.

@Outlaw-Jack: I'll try my best!

2009-11-17 14:19:00

Author:
ladylyn1

Posts: 836

I don't really care about stories. It's platformer, I'm not going to spend any time thinking up a story or read what other people thought would be a good story.

2009-11-17 17:54:00

Author:
Syroc

Posts: 3193

LittleBigPlanet is whatever you want it to be. I LOVE to see people come up with gameplay and story concepts that are original. IMO, that's what the game is all about - not copying, but creating new experiences.

I love platforming levels, but some of my favorites - such as Pinball Wizard II, Operation 107, and such - aren't platformers at all. But they work very well in LBP.

2009-11-17 18:09:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

I don't really care about stories. It's platformer, I'm not going to spend any time thinking up a story or read what other people thought would be a good story.

Well then you're limiting your lbp experience.

2009-11-17 18:17:00

Author:
ladylyn1

Posts: 836

Yes, I'm limiting it to levels I enjoy. Many story level go on forever and I just want short stints of fun and merriment.

2009-11-17 18:37:00

Author:
Syroc

Posts: 3193

Well i feel that although gameplay and complexity has probably reached its limit with lbp...

No chance. Especially on the latter. And even on the gameplay aspect, are you telling me that every gameplay dynamic has been done, and has been done as well as it can possibly be done? Nah, it only seems that way because you haven't seen anything better....

Yet.

2009-11-17 18:37:00

Author:
rtm223

Posts: 6497

No chance. Especially on the latter. And even on the gameplay aspect, are you telling me that every gameplay dynamic has been done, and has been done as well as it can possibly be done? Nah, it only seems that way because you haven't seen anything better....

Yet.
Heh... everytime I think I'm finished creating levels, I think of another type of gameplay style and another project gets started. It drives me crazy!

I totally agree with both points, though - I think a lot of expansion in the gameplay direction AND the story direction would be fantastic.

2009-11-17 18:49:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

I can't remember who but I was playing a reall BAD level with another player. The story was so bad it was hilarious and I think it was a creator new to the game. You came to a dead end and a speech bubble said something like "Oh ****t ded end...oh wel i better climb these rocks" and it was almost impossible to get to the top. I don't mind stuff like that on a rare occasion.

2009-11-17 19:31:00

Author:
BasketSnake

Posts: 2391

2009-11-17 20:37:00

Author:
Unknown User

The problem is that players rather make good levels, then great levels.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The defination of a great level.

A level with outstanding quality, and etheir some kind of atmosphere, game play element, effect, sound, story, or other of wich the player has never before seen,

Thats the problem. Copying trends=Good level at most. Thinking in a new direction while making the visuals/sounds after high standard=Great levels.

But this is normal. Making a great level isn't something you decide to do. You just do your best, you create something that is fun and if it becomes "great" then it's ok.
It' perfectly normal and expected for exceptional levels to be in small numbers.

.

2009-11-18 16:46:00

Author:
RangerZero

Posts: 3901

Well, I haven't read through ALL the comments here (too many), but enough to get the gist.

I was actually just talking about this to a friend yesterday. I often feel like a complete fraud here on LBP because I haven't made a single level since joining here. I've basically chucked what I was working on prior to arriving and I currently have no inspiration whatsoever - and I know exactly why. For me, the standard here is oppressively high. Could I make levels that approach what I see here, yes, I think I could, if I had the time, and that's my big problem - rather the lack of it. My family (kids) have to be my priority at the moment and so the thought of undertaking something as massive as mastering the 3d glitch is too much to even contemplate, and it has killed off my drive, completely. I get obsessive when in create mode and my family life suffers.

I certainly don't blame this site or any particular individuals (although I have shaken my fist at you, Wex.. in fun, I assure you). I've just been blown away by and loved what I've learned here, and the people I've met - but I haven't the time to apply any of what I've learned and it's extraordinarily frustrating. The little free time I would have used to create, I now spend playing online with friends from here

And while I don't regret joining LBPC, I regret the loss of the enthusiasm I had while still in my 'creative ignorance'.

I know people have said we need to make a level that we're satisfied with and that we find fun, and that is indeed true, but whether we like it or not, this site, while creatively supportive, is set up for evaluation. Cool Levels, Spotlights, F4F, etc. It's human nature to compare this to that and I don't want to make something I'm not satisfied with nor that the people I admire and respect here will find uninteresting. So I create nothing. Except sticker contest entries!

I do disagree somewhat that gameplay is the most important element (as mentioned by deboerdave, I think) and while that's what brings him back, I love the visual side. If a level is beautifully rendered, visually, I couldn't care less about the gameplay, I just drink it all in.. and that's me, but I feel the need to have awesome gameplay in order to meet the LBPC standard and I cannot keep up with the innovators here, so I don't try.

This all sounds so negative and I don't mean it to be at all. Just stating my situation and thoughts on the conundrum Wex posted. I realise there is a time and season for everything and my arrival here has not coincided with a season where I'm free to use my time as I will. That's life and I'm sure I'm not the only one in that boat. It's actually liberating to be able to explain this...

Thanks, Wex

2009-11-20 10:12:00

Author:
BabyDoll1970

Posts: 1567

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