Archive: 21 posts

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I'm trying to build a couple of devices in a current level, and I'm having difficulty figuring out how to get these ideas to work, or if they're even possible. Hopefully someone here can figure this out. ? The lift I'm sure this is possible, I'm just having difficulty wrapping my brain around it. Here's what I WANT - Simple piece of sponge on a stiff piston, goes between two floors, in the rear of 2 layers. when you approach it on the bottom floor, the lift is automatically called to meet you. Likewise on the top. Then when you grab it, it takes you to the next floor. So, if you're on the bottom floor, it takes you up, and if you're on the top it takes you down. I have it working perfectly with one exception - when you grab it on the top floor, it stays on the top floor. I made a little device with 2 flippers that flick a mag key in and out of range, and that's how I've got the lift-calling to work. I should mention that I never took a second of programming, and literally learned logic gates SPECIFICALLY for this game. up until now I've only needed to use OR, AND, permanent switches, and toggle switches. The crane controls This crane arm is currently on a wobble bolt and rotates like a wheel. A second control sends the arm out and open to grab anything that's lined up. I'm happy with the crane "lunge", I'm not happy with the rotation. I have a piece of sponge on a spring with a mag key set to "speed", so the farther you push the sponge, the faster the crane rotates. What I WANT, is to be able to push the sponge left to rotate the crane one way, and push it right to rotate it the other way. The trick is that I also want this to be feathered - so the farther right you push it, the faster it rotates one way, and the farther left you push it, the farther left it rotates. I'm pretty stumped with how to pull that little ditty off. I thought maybe a 3-way switch set to speed would accomplish the trick of both controlling direction and speed - but that's not what it does. That's not what it does at ALL. Any smarter souls want to help this old stupid out?

2009-10-23 03:06:00 Author: Teebonesy Posts: 1937

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I have published the following solution copyable under the PSN Penguinman1432. Okay, well i have your first problem solved. I have a one shot toggle switch set up to change the direction based on 3 parameters: 1: Elevator is at top, player is at bottom 2: Elevator is at bottom, player is at top 3: Player grabs elevator I used AND gates to set these parameters, and a key switch on the elevator and a prox switch and corresponding mag key on each floor to determine where sacky and the elevator are. These AND gates feed into an OR gate, so any of the statements will cause the elevator to switch floors. The OR gate feeds into the toggle setup which changes the elevator position. The toggle switch i used in my demo was emitter based (as its the logic i prefer using, much easier to wire up you see) but as a result will be slightly more thermo heavy than a non emitter based switch. You might want to think about that. As to your second problem... Unfortuntately i can't help you here. I haven't done enough work with speed switches to be able to figure out how to do this. I'm not even sure if this is possible, given what you want done, but again, i don't really have the experience with these switches for that to be an acurate ruling.

2009-10-23 06:08:00 Author: Burnvictim42 Posts: 3322

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I have a piece of sponge on a spring with a mag key set to "speed", so the farther you push the sponge, the faster the crane rotates. What I WANT, is to be able to push the sponge left to rotate the crane one way, and push it right to rotate it the other way. The trick is that I also want this to be feathered - so the farther right you push it, the faster it rotates one way, and the farther left you push it, the farther left it rotates. I'm pretty stumped with how to pull that little ditty off. I thought maybe a 3-way switch set to speed would accomplish the trick of both controlling direction and speed - but that's not what it does. That's not what it does at ALL. No, it doesn't I would love to have some kind of speed control with negative speeds, but it's not happening. The only way I know how to do this, that isn't obscenly complex to describe is to have 2 motor bolts rotating in opposite directions, placed directly on top of one another. Input speed settings from magnetic switches into both. Place these magnetic switches either side of a key so that if the key is in the middle, neither switch is active, then if you move it one way or another, it will speed up one of the motor bolts. It does suffer from the problem of connectors feeding into connectors acting all weird, but as it's a crane and likely won't be moving too fast you shouldn't see too much wobble.

2009-10-23 09:16:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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No, it doesn't I would love to have some kind of speed control with negative speeds, but it's not happening. The only way I know how to do this, that isn't obscenly complex to describe is to have 2 motor bolts rotating in opposite directions, placed directly on top of one another. Input speed settings from magnetic switches into both. Place these magnetic switches either side of a key so that if the key is in the middle, neither switch is active, then if you move it one way or another, it will speed up one of the motor bolts. It does suffer from the problem of connectors feeding into connectors acting all weird, but as it's a crane and likely won't be moving too fast you shouldn't see too much wobble. interesting, you can STACK motor bolts? That might achieve what I need. I can already tell there's going to be an insane amount of finagling of sensor zones. But definitely sounds worth looking into. I could put the mag key right on the sponge itself, with one speed switch on the left and one on the right, each controlling an individual motor bolt, and when you release the sponge, the spring sends it into a "default" off position for both. Hmm... I need a way to safely halt the rotation at certain points, I can't have the crane doing a 360 degree turn - more of a 180 degree. I guess I could put the two speed mag switches on move-able materials connected to pistons. a mag key on the crane itself, and once it reaches its two extremes, it activates the piston and pulls the speed switch temporarily out of the way. Overall, this idea sounds almost absurdly simple. I like it. I'll have to play with it and certainly I'm in for a hell of a gnarly series of failures, but at this point I like the elegance of the solution on paper. I have published the following solution copyable under the PSN Penguinman1432. Awesome, I'll definitely give it a look - thanks!

2009-10-23 09:32:00 Author: Teebonesy Posts: 1937

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interesting, you can STACK motor bolts? That might achieve what I need. I can already tell there's going to be an insane amount of finagling of sensor zones. I don't think so. Just make sure the two are the same and the motor bolts are set to the same speed. Probably worth making a prototype to decide on speeds as you have to dismantle to tweak the one at the back. But definitely sounds worth looking into. I could put the mag key right on the sponge itself, with one speed switch on the left and one on the right, each controlling an individual motor bolt, and when you release the sponge, the spring sends it into a "default" off position for both. I'd go for a piston and two winches. Set the piston so that it has strength 0 (or maybe 1, so you get a bit of resistance on the controls - if you set str > 0 you will want to have it permenently off). Then have 2 winches set up so that when both are contracted, the sponge is in the dead zone and when extended they are longer furthest point of the sponge. Then add a grab switch set to directional into both of the winches. When you grab they will release and allow you to move the sponge, then pull the sponge back to centre when you release, with no springiness. You could do it with one winch I know, but 2 is easier. Hmm... I need a way to safely halt the rotation at certain points, I can't have the crane doing a 360 degree turn - more of a 180 degree.Just have a physical barrier built in. I'm sure you can work it into the aesthetics fine.

2009-10-23 09:41:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Just have a physical barrier built in. I'm sure you can work it into the aesthetics fine. Wouldn't that risk breaking it? It's happened when the crane has budged into the natural architecture of the level, when I was setting my wobble bolt up (effing wobbles, seriously...) to be fair though, that's not something I've tried. The arm of the crane's on a flat layer, and I think that's the place to do it. I'll have to play with it. Thanks for the tidbit about the winches too - I'm liking how it sounds.

2009-10-23 09:48:00 Author: Teebonesy Posts: 1937

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There is a change of it breaking. I assumed it was moving pretty slow so would be OK. YOu can always tweak strengths if need be. I don't know if it makes any difference, but having it so it pushes flush against the thing that blocks it might help prevent breaking (I only just thought about that so I have no idea) Alternatively you can keep it in check using invisible string connected to dark matter.

2009-10-23 09:52:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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So I've been playing with a prototype, and I feel like I'm close - the controls feel good, it'll be very intuitive if I can get it working, but there's one thing that's killing me. It's the 2x motor bolts thing. I can't get the crane to rotate on two separate motor bolts. I was mistaken before, my main crane arm is a thick layer, not a thin (not that it matters here). I tried a few configurations. The crane between two flat layers of dark matter. Two segments of the crane, each with its own motor bolt. Obviously this is flawed, because to rotate on one bolt, you'd have to move the dark matter of the other bolt. the axis has to be straight through - the bolts HAVE to be directly stacked on the same spot. So the only way I can figure to do that is the first option, the crane between two flat layers. One bolt on the crane, the other on the front flat dark matter. One direction would work fine. One direction would get ignored or act erratically, like the crane jerking quickly for a second in the second direction, and then suddenly stopping and slowly drifting in the OPPOSITE direction. Any ideas? I feel like I'm THIS close. The switch feels good, the winches and piston setup is a dream, the speed switches are all proper. But this motor bolt situation's a mood killer.

2009-10-23 10:54:00 Author: Teebonesy Posts: 1937

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I'm a little confused about the configuration you are using. I would have placed thin layer dark matter (1), then a thick layer circle (2), then the base of the arm in the thin layer in front of that (3), then glued to the main arm (4), which is on the thick layer in the middle. See if you can decipher my diagram lol: ----3----- ##2## ######4###### --1-- From what you have described you have the two bolts literally fighting to move the same object, rather than a stack.

2009-10-23 11:28:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Dude... that was exactly it... I was assuming/stupidly hoping that when a motor bolt was "off" it could essentially be a non-issue, but an off motor bolt is more like glue than a bolt, there's very little give. And for some reason I imagined using a non-dark matter layer would only serve to rotate the one layer, while the foreground layer would remain stationary, like a gimble. These are the ways my wormy brain works. No but seriously, that's it. that did it. It's effing working. The crane is good. I've now got exactly what I wanted. Seriously, I owe you a nickel. Dr. Rtm. I'll go to you first thing next time. And why not. I had my tablet out and scribbled out a ridiculous but colorful diagram for anyone else wanting to benefit from this and not knowing full well what I was going after. It doesn't have to be a crane, it could be ANYTHING that rotates. A turret gun. A light. I'm sure you could invert the layers, which I'll probably do when I tweak my final crane, by putting the base on a thick layer instead of a thin one. But this is a great control system. Beats a 3-way switch any day of the week. I should mention one hitch I had - placing the final motor bolt, and getting it in the center, was very tricky business. It didn't want to cooperate. I had to finesse the tiniest little control-stick movements to get it in, it didn't want to stick, there seemed to be ONE PIXEL where it would actually lock onto center, and anywhere else near it, it wouldn't even let me place it. But I do need to stress that circles should be used, and the motor bolts need to lock onto the center. http://imgur.com/OM6fn.jpg

2009-10-23 11:43:00 Author: Teebonesy Posts: 1937

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Dude... that was exactly it... I was assuming/stupidly hoping that when a motor bolt was "off" it could essentially be a non-issue, but an off motor bolt is more like glue than a bolt, there's very little give. As an aside, I think this is configurable by motor strength, though in your case it wouldn't help, as this affects strength while running in the same way. No but seriously, that's it. that did it. It's effing working. The crane is good. I've now got exactly what I wanted. Seriously, I owe you a nickel. Dr. Rtm. I'll go to you first thing next time. Hey, there are other people here who like to give their brains a jog before Rtm comes up with the solution.

2009-10-23 13:19:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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People here who like to give their brains a jog before Rtm comes up with the solution. You'll have to chloroform him to beat him to it! He's like a cat on a cliff, ready to pounce on unsuspecting help-seekers! A mangy cat I should mention, with lots of fleas... But ready to POUNCE!! I implemented the final crane, it's working as lovely as I imagined, with the exception that you can somehow squish yourself between the sponge and the wall. I'll have to create a little buffer zone. It's such a tiny room though. This piston can be a bit wonky actually. It's really loosey-goosey, so I wanted a bit more resistance, and I found it better around a strength of 5 or so. But once you get at 5.5 and especially 6, it loses its smoothness. the motion of pushing and pulling becomes kind of jerky. I might play a bit with springs to give it a bit of extra push, alongside the piston and winches. This tiny piece of sponge is going to have more THINGS sticking out of it than anything else I've made! 2 winches, a piston, and possibly 2 springs. That poor sponge... Oh, also: Just make sure the two are the same and the motor bolts are set to the same speed. Probably worth making a prototype to decide on speeds as you have to dismantle to tweak the one at the back. this was truly a pain in the ***. I was happy with my prototype, but then when I actually started using the crane, I decided it wasn't fast enough, so I needed to tweak the motor bolts. Boy was that a barrel of fun times.

2009-10-23 22:25:00 Author: Teebonesy Posts: 1937

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You'll have to chloroform him to beat him to it! He's like a cat on a cliff, ready to pounce on unsuspecting help-seekers! A mangy cat I should mention, with lots of fleas... But ready to POUNCE!! Nah, it's just like those puzzle books, you have to stop yourself from looking in the back. This piston can be a bit wonky actually. It's really loosey-goosey, so I wanted a bit more resistance, and I found it better around a strength of 5 or so. But once you get at 5.5 and especially 6, it loses its smoothness. the motion of pushing and pulling becomes kind of jerky. Sounds like the simulation of static/dynamic friction acting up. The physics engine is pretty amazing, if you think about it. But it can't get everything right.

2009-10-24 21:36:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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I have published the following solution copyable under the PSN Penguinman1432. Okay, well i have your first problem solved. I have a one shot toggle switch set up to change the direction based on 3 parameters: 1: Elevator is at top, player is at bottom 2: Elevator is at bottom, player is at top 3: Player grabs elevator Thanks a lot, your copyable level helped me out a lot. I'll go back into the level and add you and rtm in the level description. It's amazing how simple your solution is. The ingredient I was missing was a sensor that read where the elevator was. My problem was in my approach, I didn't even break it down to the question "under what conditions must the piston change directions?". Instead I way over-complicated it, layering gate on gate on gate on gate trying to get the thing to work. It's no wonder it failed. the toggle switch I use is basically osprey's, but it's my own build, slightly altered. I love the little guy though! I also need to save some decent logic gate objects, because with the exception of my toggles, I always build my gates from scratch every time I need anything. I've gotten unbelievably fast with my dark-matter/cardboard/piston/mag switch placements. Sounds like the simulation of static/dynamic friction acting up. The physics engine is pretty amazing, if you think about it. But it can't get everything right. It is pretty cool to watch the physics system strain itself. Especially with the lengths of rods/springs/elastics/strings/winches/pistons - making them JUST too short to do the job, and watching the violence wreaked on the poor convulsing objects as a result. By the way, I added 2 springs to the sliding switch to give it a bit more push. The main problem it has is that it really needs a buffer zone, because the piston goes all the way to each wall. And obviously, sackboy has to stand on one side. So he can push the thing to full speed, but he can't quite PULL it to full-speed. Sounds like an easy fix of a shorter max on the piston, but the thing is, the space is so small I'd rather extend it than just shorten the piston. And that kind of happens to be a pain, so I've put it on the shelf for now. I'll fix it laaater!

2009-10-24 23:50:00 Author: Teebonesy Posts: 1937

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You'll have to chloroform him to beat him to it! He's like a cat on a cliff, ready to pounce on unsuspecting help-seekers! A mangy cat I should mention, with lots of fleas... But ready to POUNCE!! Heh, if you post when I'm at work, I just keep LBPC open in a spare tab for all those times I have to let something run for 5 minutes without my intervention - it's not long enough to do something work related, but it is long enough for a couple of cheeky posts on the forums @ Rogar: I do agree it's best to keep these things on the forums, simply because there's normally more than one way and getting multiple perspectives is always a good thing I also need to save some decent logic gate objects, because with the exception of my toggles, I always build my gates from scratch every time I need anything. I've gotten unbelievably fast with my dark-matter/cardboard/piston/mag switch placements. I still do this. I like having my complex logic systems all linked up to the same piece of darkmatter and you can't do that if you have them saved as objects. It's really inefficient on time, but it just looks so much neater that lots of separate switches (see technoLegs for an example)

2009-10-25 00:39:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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I also need to save some decent logic gate objects, because with the exception of my toggles, I always build my gates from scratch every time I need anything. I've gotten unbelievably fast with my dark-matter/cardboard/piston/mag switch placements. I still do this. I like having my complex logic systems all linked up to the same piece of darkmatter and you can't do that if you have them saved as objects. It's really inefficient on time, but it just looks so much neater that lots of separate switches (see technoLegs for an example) I don't have a single piece of dark matter (don't want the extra vertices, and group drag is good enough), but I do build from scratch to optimize for the thermometer. For example, you can combine two AND gates which share an input into one piston + magnetic key. A bit of refactoring, and I end up with a neat, optimized little circuit.

2009-10-25 00:59:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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that is one thing I do like CRAZY is piggyback my gates together. Every AND and OR and toggle and PM switch usually has a ton of switches and pieces connected. I've got some logic-gates that look like stick figures. I never have a permanent switch on its own piece of dark matter, it's ALWAYS always piggybacking on another already-built gate. Although I'm not neat with mine - If I have a bunch of toggles, I try to color code them so I know what does what, but otherwise, if I get something working and then have to tweak way later, I find myself often having to trace cables because I don't remember what went where in my mess of mag key switches. I've got one toggle switch with like 6 mag key switches all sensing the same toggle. It's just so easy to add cool little flourishes, like colored lights and motorized decorations that go along with a toggled control.

2009-10-25 01:16:00 Author: Teebonesy Posts: 1937

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I don't have a single piece of dark matter (don't want the extra vertices, and group drag is good enough), but I do build from scratch to optimize for the thermometer. For example, you can combine two AND gates which share an input into one piston + magnetic key. A bit of refactoring, and I end up with a neat, optimized little circuit. Yup I do that, but not as much these days since most of my switches have a single moving part. I do tend to do stuff like: (a AND b) OR (c AND d) is made with 2 moving parts, one has the key and one has the switch. Very efficient and switches in 0.1s

2009-10-25 01:50:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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(a AND b) OR (c AND d) is made with 2 moving parts, one has the key and one has the switch. Very efficient and switches in 0.1s Uhm, that's using a strong inverted winch versus a weak piston, I suppose? That's good stuff! I should start using more winches, they're not really in my logic vocabulary yet. I'm still in the piston-age, with a few emitters thrown in to take samples, to stabilize the system or as a clock signal.

2009-10-25 15:56:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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I'm still in the piston-age, with a few emitters thrown in to take samples, to stabilize the system or as a clock signal. Correct me if I'm wrong, but can all of those be achieved with a directional wobble bolt, set to 360 degrees, and always ON spinning a wheel? I'm not sure it's lower thermo, but it's what I'd use. Sorry, this thread has derailed a bit.

2009-10-25 16:18:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but can all of those be achieved with a directional wobble bolt, set to 360 degrees, and always ON spinning a wheel? I'm not sure it's lower thermo, but it's what I'd use. Sorry, this thread has derailed a bit. The advantage of emitting dark matter with a key on it is that the key is stationary, even if the emitter is not. For example, I have an input from a randomizer. The piston is all over the place, but I sample it every second so that the logic behind it settles down and I can sample the result safely at .5 sec sync offset. I don't know if this has many other applications in LBP, but clock cycles are a common thing in computer logic. Yes, this is slightly off topic.

2009-10-25 16:41:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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