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Cool Levels? More like... Crap... levels...

Archive: 125 posts

2009-10-19 06:09:00

Author:
poorjack

Posts: 1806

i so agree

2009-10-19 06:19:00

Author:
ktang77

Posts: 592

The cool page represent the taste of the mass -- wich will be inevitably crappy as with any form of entertainment really.

Also, don't worry, it's still possible to achieve decent plays/hearts and receive awesome feedback by making quality levels. Also, Cool level pages always have been bad, don't worry for the community too much.

2009-10-19 06:45:00

Author:
RangerZero

Posts: 3901

Short answer... Cool Pages is a flawed, broken system. Always has been.

2009-10-19 06:48:00

Author:
v0rtex

Posts: 1878

Short answer... Cool Pages is a flawed, broken system. Always has been.

Exactly that, the same reason I also don't understand everyones obsession to conquer a spot in them.

I care about the opinions of the members here but couldn't care less about the masses that play it.
I used to make levels for me, now I create them with this part of the community in mind.

2009-10-19 06:52:00

Author:
Zwollie

Posts: 2173

Cool Levels is broken. I only usually find about three of those 'good, beautiful levels with storylines' across the whole 10-11 pages that load for me.

Dont get me started on Quick Play....

2009-10-19 07:19:00

Author:
Matimoo

Posts: 1027

Uhh... welcome to 2008....They have Always been bad...

Although a good thing I have noticed about the Cool Levels over the last 2-3 months is that it is alot easier to get on there than it has ever been, you don't need as much plays as you once did, but then again it means it is alot easier for Trophy/H4H levels to get on there.

Also why do you mention dan_e2040? He has over 2,000 author hearts, a 5 Star level, and is well known throughout the community...his levels get atttention...

And Metal_Josh hasn't created for many many months, he also only has 2 levels.

2009-10-19 07:37:00

Author:
TheFirstAvenger

Posts: 787

im just mentioning a few great creators for those who arent as informed as some. i would also mention stevebigguns, if his name werent already synonimous with "great creator"

2009-10-19 09:05:00

Author:
poorjack

Posts: 1806

Im not so sure I would say cool levels is broken. Its just that to make the "great" levels that we are talking about takes a very long time. This resulting only 1 or 2 truly great levels being released a week. Now, thats really not bad in my opinion, I mean, there is no other game out there that gives you that amount of playability week after week for FREE. Still, you can't just have those few levels coming out every week so it is filled up with the rest of the usual fare. Its just up to the community to find the hidden gems.

2009-10-19 09:43:00

Author:
wexfordian

Posts: 1904

Cool Levels page was just a magnificent place for great creators to be on. Now it's a horrible place to even look at.

R.I.P. the better Cool Levels page.

2009-10-19 10:02:00

Author:
CyberSora

Posts: 5551

2009-10-19 11:19:00

Author:
Gilgamesh

Posts: 2536

Really, what we need to do is fix the republishing mechanism and we'll be set.

2009-10-19 12:32:00

Author:
SLS10

Posts: 1129

Really, what we need to do is fix the republishing mechanism and we'll be set.

Hmmm. One the one hand removing the republish from Cool Levels would put everyone on the same level, whereas currently people who have 10 hours to spend all day republishing their level every 10 minutes have a distinct advantage over others who have to go to work/school/etc (and people who are just too annoyed by the republish circus to be bothered to go through with it).

On the other hand if you make significant changes in your level, is it really fair to force the creator to delete and publish their level as new?

It's an interesting suggestion, but I'm just not sure if it would actually make things better or worse.

2009-10-19 13:37:00

Author:
Gilgamesh

Posts: 2536

Maybe there's no need of a cool levels page....
What about if the default community page was just the new levels pages...?

Don't know if it would solve some problems or create others...but I'm just wondering....

2009-10-19 13:41:00

Author:
dajdaj03

Posts: 1486

maybe even a title filter? Mm has said they dont like H4H, so why not filter out the titles containing the word "H4H" from being able to show up on cool levels? This would get rid of both H4H and the annoying "anti H4H" levels that have also become a trend. It doesnt end all problems, but its a start.

2009-10-19 14:06:00

Author:
poorjack

Posts: 1806

I 100% agree with Wex.

Think about a few things:

1. Before cool pages changed, yes... there were quality levels up at the top - but the levels always remained THE SAME. In 1 day you could play through them and then... nothing new. After about a month, Splat Invaders Saga had about 400 plays. It sat on highest rated page 3 for a long time, but even there it didn't get too many plays. Now, there are ALWAYS a few high quality levels floating up at the top of cool pages.

2. Who is PLAYING these level you're seeing up there? The fact is, there are a TON of little kids playing LittleBigPlanet who LOVE the short little easy challenges that are up there. Many of the levels we design (such as just about ALL of mine) are beyond that audience. I modify my publishing behavior around this - I try to avoid the huge amounts of weekend plays by starting my 7 days on WEDNESDAY. Over the weekend my level is just low enough so the kids don't notice it. I've managed to get much better quality plays this way, but obviously at the loss of quantity - which is fine.

3. Hundreds of thousands of people love to make levels in LittleBigPlanet... but there are only so many high-level talented people. If you told all the less-than-talented creators they couldn't get any attention, and only the Wex-MrsSpookyBuz-SteveBigGuns-GrantosUK-MrSuperComputer-CompherMC...(you get the point) creators were allowed to get attention for their levels.... the popularity of LittleBigPlanet would PLUMMET. MM knows this... they want EVERYONE to create and have fun, regardless of their skill level.

4. This is actually working for everyones benefit. For instance, if someone like me goes to cool pages I LOOK for levels that are not bomb levels.... and I find them, play them, and heart them (in fact, PoorJack, I found your level this way when I didn't know you had a new one out). If I had 50 top quality levels to choose from up there, I would not get to very many of them.... so, less attention for the really good ones.

My only suggestion is to add genres and difficulties so people can be more directed into appropriate levels for them. And have different cool pages for each, so a less-kid-friendly-level can sit on top of a cool page that those people would enjoy.

2009-10-19 14:51:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

The cool levels page only show the levels that the majority like. the only thing broke about them is the way that you can get to page one by publishing a lot

2009-10-19 14:59:00

Author:
springs86

Posts: 785

The cool levels page only show the levels that the majority like. the only thing broke about them is the way that you can get to page one by publishing a lot
Or.... have a limit for how long a level STAYS on page 1. This would pull the rug right out from under spam-publishers.

So, maybe your level can have 1 week on cool pages.... but only 2 days on page 1. So, if someone artificially pushed their level up IMMEDIATELY to page 1, they would have less days...

Hmmm.... Haven't thought this one all the way through, but its interesting.

2009-10-19 15:38:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

Cool Levels used to have interesting content back in the days of the beta (though it had the severe flaw of keeping the same levels forever). With the release of the game, I don't think it's an understatement to say that trophies killed the Cool Levels.Bingo. Most LBP players just want to get their trophies and move on.

I would probably go further and say that a terrible cool levels page is probably an indication that there is still a fair amount of new players joining.

2009-10-19 15:42:00

Author:
Unknown User

I 100% agree with Wex.

My only suggestion is to add genres and difficulties so people can be more directed into appropriate levels for them. And have different cool pages for each, so a less-kid-friendly-level can sit on top of a cool page that those people would enjoy.

Yes and YES!

1. Yes I agree with Wex as well !!

2. YES!! genres and difficulties are what I have been wishing and suggesting for quite some time. The default cool levels could be your favorite genre or maybe the last one searched.

2009-10-19 16:27:00

Author:
jwwphotos

Posts: 11383

2009-10-19 16:50:00

Author:
rz22g

Posts: 340

I just spent this week trying to figure out how it works and however it works.. I dont like it. I have a complete crap level with 3 star rating that moved up from page 7 to around 4 I think. The plays were slow as well. I think on its 6th day now its just over 1000 plays. I published my old stunt bike level and plays did not seem any slower but stars started at 5 and remained there. It took me forever to find it on the pages but when I did it was on 7 or 8. Half hour later its on page 10. An hour later only 9 or 9 pages show when earlier there were 20. Seems like a complete CF to me.
True, but totally different issues.

It took me forever to find it on the pages but when I did it was on 7 or 8. Half hour later its on page 10.

This was either a) you had recently republished it and it was temporarily glowing on 7 or 8, then went to page 10 where it was cemented or b) it was cemented on 7 or 8 and someone else's levels pushed it down to page 10 because they were republishing it more than you.

An hour later only 9 or 9 pages show when earlier there were 20.

Sometimes the server times out when you are flipping through pages of cool pages, so you can't get down any lower than a specific page. Exiting to the pod and then going back into cool pages many times fixes this. This sounds like something that should be fixed by MM.

Once you get used to working with cool pages and see how everything works it isn't too bad, and it does allow people to get plays... but it also has its flaws.

2009-10-19 17:19:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

The cool pages debate lives on.

Well i think the system is okay i think that its implementation could use som tweaking in regards to how much weight each persons vote is worth. And i think the unique player count should also be used and presented on each level. the unique player stat versus the total plays stat would totally kill russelmuscle type level, where someone restarted there level a thousand times to try to get it to stick on cool pages. Who's going to want to play a level that says 1 unique player played this level 1000 times.

I would like to see two rankings systems in lbp, A player Ranking and Creator Ranking, Which could then be combined to give a Global Ranking.

Player Rankings could be established based on some Function of preformance on levels, where if you get first on a level played by thousands of people it has more meaning than if you get first out of 10 to 100 people. This would makethe game more competitive when comes to getting high scores, as now you have more reason to get a high score it pushes up your rank and gives you more influence on what is a good level.

The Creator Ranking Would be based on a function of how many people heart you and your levels and how much you levels get played, how many levels you have published. And how high those levels are ranked and such things.

If implemented it would have to start out fresh and no previoulsly published levels could go into the calculating the two rankings, as those are already tainted by previously bad systems.

Now that you have the two rankings these could be used to produce a global ranking that could be used to influence cool pages, through the rating system. If you are one of the lowest rated players/creators then you opinion will not be seen as valuable as those that are highest rated, this means they have no skill at the game or creating so the are less involved in when it comes to picking out what is good. This player rank/weight would effect how much your hearts count and how much your star rating counts when computing the levels ranking on cool pages.

The system would be quite dynamic as if you push your rank up then all the previous levels you have voted on would also be affected as your weight would change (this would be ideal, but may not be feasible do to the high number of calculation that would need to be done to static old levels, so maybe just your wieght at the time you rate would have to remain static for that level, mayeb on a maintnance like once a month ratings could be refreshed on the current player rankings and update the level ratings based on the current ranks).

Such a system integrated with the current system would produce higher quality cool pages. I also am in favor of the multiple cool pages/highest rated for different types of levels (difficult, survival, rpg, ... etc)

2009-10-19 18:08:00

Author:
deboerdave

Posts: 384

If there was a way to separate high quality levels from masses of survival challenges and H4H then Mm could allow certain Privileges to those creators in order to get more plays, then again, not everyone likes epic levels, just in and out in under a second with a high score

With that genre thing, how could that work, pic before you publish? the system uses searches that don't scan the level just how new it is

2009-10-19 18:09:00

Author:
springs86

Posts: 785

2009-10-19 18:13:00

Author:
deboerdave

Posts: 384

see my post above i think this is what i am getting at we posted at the same time so you might have missed it

LMAO great minds think alike

, thats exactly what happened, although you explained in much greater depth

2009-10-19 18:34:00

Author:
springs86

Posts: 785

TBH, having a weighted ratings system would actually rely on the cool pages / general ratings system being sound in the first place. Otherwise you just perpetuate the current scenario, the creators whose levels currently do well under whatever algorithm they are using would then become the most powerful raters. Likely they would vote for stuff that is similar to their own.

This would simply take any problems that the cool pages already has and amplify them. Think of how many H4H levels get into cool pages... do you really want to give those people extra power to determine what is on cool pages??

I do agree with a reduction of the weighting on total number of plays. The most significant factors should really be ratings and hearts:unique plays IMO. That and filters is all we need.

At the end of the day, cool pages will be dominated by the opinions of the masses. It's the same with music: the charts are full of trash, with a minority of real talent that finds it's way in there. Long ago I got used to that and started looking elsewhere for new music to listen to. So what if cool pages doesn't have the levels I want to play, you've got the internet. Just look at our community spotlight, that's at least 1 **** good level released every two days. Plus even more if you go to the showcase forum and dig around a bit more.

2009-10-19 18:48:00

Author:
rtm223

Posts: 6497

Yay on counting unique plays. That should bring an end to this trend to drop your player onto a scoreboard if they don't react fast enough. What a horrible way to get more plays!

Nay on the weights. Incompetent players have a right to enjoy levels, too! :blush:

Nothing has changed since I first joined one of these cool level discussions. The solution still lies in genres.

2009-10-19 19:05:00

Author:
Rogar

Posts: 2284

Some of you are saying that there are few good levels released every week, and page one is just filled up with the levels that fill up the space, but that just isn't true.

I do understand that only two or three truly good community levels get released per week, and they do manage to get on page one, but there are ALOT of levels that get released on page 2 or 3 which deserve to replace all of the jump challenges, the bomb survivals and the ramp levels. They may not be the best levels in the game, but they certainly deserve to swap places with the majority of levels on page one.

For example, my level got to page three, it took me months to make it. And all these bad levels (especially jump challenges that you can create in one sitting) stole plays from me.

There isn't really much we can do about it though as a community, we need MM to implement a tool which will make sure good levels get the plays they deserve. On sackcast.com I suggested that the PRO's of LBP for example Ccubbage and Morgana25 get given a spotlighting power where they hunt down good levels and then they can put them on a spotlighted levels section, where they will stay there permanently to be enjoyed by the community.

2009-10-19 19:17:00

Author:
olit123

Posts: 1341

I agree with alot of people in this thread.

- Yes the bad trophy design quite killed the cool pages.

- Genre and difficulty should appear in level info, therefore being searchable. (I always preach for that one.)

- We should have a real tag system that isn't a rating system like right now. Aka it's the creation tagging the level with words he's typing himself, like ALL tag system in the freaking world.

- Level rating shouldn't be mandatory and should be couple of menu deep. This would discourage spammers, people that don't care and simply click whatever stars the rating is at and it would also prevent kids from rating too much.

Now I wouldn't agree with removing multiple publishing though. Simply because the game does ZERO promotion for your level outside republishing. They should not remove the ONLY WAY to promote your level, it's completely ridiculous.

With all I suggested up there, I think cool pages would pretty much be "as good as it gets". Otherwise MM would need to completely redesign the community part of the game to reach some real improvement.

.

2009-10-19 20:12:00

Author:
RangerZero

Posts: 3901

If implemented it would have to start out fresh and no previoulsly published levels could go into the calculating the two rankings, as those are already tainted by previously bad systems.

TBH, having a weighted ratings system would actually rely on the cool pages / general ratings system being sound in the first place. Otherwise you just perpetuate the current scenario, the creators whose levels currently do well under whatever algorithm they are using would then become the most powerful raters. Likely they would vote for stuff that is similar to their own.

This would simply take any problems that the cool pages already has and amplify them. Think of how many H4H levels get into cool pages... do you really want to give those people extra power to determine what is on cool pages??

I do agree with a reduction of the weighting on total number of plays. The most significant factors should really be ratings and hearts:unique plays IMO. That and filters is all we need.

At the end of the day, cool pages will be dominated by the opinions of the masses. It's the same with music: the charts are full of trash, with a minority of real talent that finds it's way in there. Long ago I got used to that and started looking elsewhere for new music to listen to. So what if cool pages doesn't have the levels I want to play, you've got the internet. Just look at our community spotlight, that's at least 1 **** good level released every two days. Plus even more if you go to the showcase forum and dig around a bit more.

Yeah i know what you mean rtm223 thats why i said such system would have to disregard any previous history and start out fresh. I also like the rating for players as it gives more meaning to playing a level. Right now it doesnt mean anything if you achieve a top score. Even if a rating system wasnt implemented in to wieghts it would still be cool to have to see how peoples skill line up with one another. I would definitely be interested in seeing who the top players are and seeing what levels they have bookmarked. Again a rating system would have to start fresh from levels published from that day on, except maybe for the story levels, shich one may argue to include into the rating, since everyone has played those (although at the time of play you had no insentive to go a high score except personal satisfation).

2009-10-19 20:19:00

Author:
deboerdave

Posts: 384

I totally agree with this, Cool levels just demonstrates how creativity is overshadowed by no-talent n00bs and their **** levels.

2009-10-19 20:46:00

Author:
KoRnDawwg

Posts: 1424

Now I wouldn't agree with removing multiple publishing though. Simply because the game does ZERO promotion for your level outside republishing. They should not remove the ONLY WAY to promote your level, it's completely ridiculous.
Removing it completely is a reactionary idea because republishing is seen a s a problem. I agree removing it is pointless, however, a limit of say 3-5 republishes counting every 24 hours could give a distinct improvement. So you can still republish as many times as you want, but only x of them will bump you on cool pages. 3-5 is plenty to take into account "natural" republishing, but not enough to ram your level constantly down people's throats. This could be abused, but less so that the free-for-all on republishing spam we have now.

Yeah i know what you mean rtm223 thats why i said such system would have to disregard any previous history and start out fresh. Dang, I managed to miss that point completely. Sorry. I still think that a reset on algorithm is necessary too, I mean otherwise even starting from scratch will still see the crap dominating.

TBH, part of me feels like there might be a gradual shift going on in the algorithm. I mean they won't completely turn it around overnight, because it could end up worse, but they might be gradually shifting the weightings every week and seeing how cool pages changes. Or is this just wichful thinking.

I also like the rating for players as it gives more meaning to playing a level. Right now it doesnt mean anything if you achieve a top score. Even if a rating system wasnt implemented in to wieghts it would still be cool to have to see how peoples skill line up with one another. I would definitely be interested in seeing who the top players are and seeing what levels they have bookmarked. I think this is a nice idea, but I honestly don't think it should have any effect on you power to rate other people's levels. Having mad skillz does not mean you will rate objectively or sensibly and it gives no indication of good taste

2009-10-19 20:54:00

Author:
rtm223

Posts: 6497

My thoughts on this is that there seem to be 2 main kinds of LBP players: the kids who the game's simple, bright nature is what makes them enjoy the game in the first place; they don't really care about how much effort or innovation was put into the level, they just want to have fun in race levels with their friends in a custom Spiderman costume. They'll go onto the cool pages to see what new levels are on it that others like them are playing, since they'll likely enjoy them too.

The other kind are gamers who bought LittleBigPlanet for it's revolutionary Play, Create, Share concept. As gamers they will know what kind of design is exciting and interesting, and will crave brilliant levels and luckily there are plenty. However, the current position is that original, brilliant levels are mostly left in the dark due to lack of exposure, whereas fun, simple levels remain a popular staple of cool pages.

In the end, I think that cool pages is now a place for the first kind of player, whereas the second kind will search for good levels, and share creations with friends and via forums such as LBPC.

2009-10-19 21:04:00

Author:
persona3fan93

Posts: 155

All I know is the cool pages aren't cool. But as soon as they finish up our "playlist website integration" We won't need to click the "cool" pages no more. We just need our site.

2009-10-19 21:13:00

Author:
BasketSnake

Posts: 2391

Removing it completely is a reactionary idea because republishing is seen a s a problem. I agree removing it is pointless, however, a limit of say 3-5 republishes counting every 24 hours could give a distinct improvement. So you can still republish as many times as you want, but only x of them will bump you on cool pages. 3-5 is plenty to take into account "natural" republishing, but not enough to ram your level constantly down people's throats. This could be abused, but less so that the free-for-all on republishing spam we have now.

I agree that giving a publishing limit would help. Because it would kill spammers. But I would give way many more. A republish that doesn't bump you in the cool pages is 100% total useless by the way. Like 3-5 per day until 7 days. After seven days you can republish as much as you'd want, you can't stick to the cool pages anyways.

.

2009-10-19 23:59:00

Author:
RangerZero

Posts: 3901

eh at this point the "cool pages" are not worthy of haveing good levels on them, people work days...months even to make really good amazing levels and i think they should be happy with quality not quantity of plays. Here at LBPC we get the best of the best reviewing your levels that you worked so hard on and giveing good quality feedback and really getting into your level and giveing it the attention it deserves. I for one would take that over a bunch of disrespectful people who only want to be in a level for five minutes and have bombs drop on there heads then spam your comments box. To sum it up

"Quality not Quantity"

only way for actually good levels to get to the top would be for each level to be played individually then ranked in actual quality and not just plays. That would be a very hard process to nail down. Oh well if you want a real cool pages you can just click to LBPC's showcase

2009-10-20 00:16:00

Author:
Littlebigdude805

Posts: 1924

A republish that doesn't bump you in the cool pages is 100% total useless by the way.

Not if it's what I refer to as a "legitimate" republish, for the purposes of actually making changes / improvements to your level. That's more important that the bump IMO. I suppose to be clearer I should have said 3-5 bumps per day, your ability to republish stays unlimited as before. The idea that you might have your hands tied while your baby was out there and you couldn't update it would probably break me - I had to leave work early when mrsupercomputer hit a level-breaking bug in setbacks in the first couple of days!

In fact, I'd go as far as saying take away the implicit relationship between republish and bump. So you republish and it asks if you want to "promote" your level at the same time. Plenty of times I've had to republish 3 times within 10 minutes because I'm a dufus.

@littlebigdude, I totally hear you. But it is possible to determine quality algorithmically - just look at google. What doberdave suggested is kind of similar to google's pagerank, where higher "quality" sites have stronger influence in terms of the sites they link to (assuming that's still the core of google - I've been out of web dev for a good few years now

). In the same way, dave's "quality" creators having stronger voting powers could actually work. As long as the initial quality measurement was sound.

2009-10-20 00:26:00

Author:
rtm223

Posts: 6497

cool, sounds like a some-what solid system, now implementing it...

w/e i hope theres a bright light at the end of this tunnel

2009-10-20 00:30:00

Author:
Littlebigdude805

Posts: 1924

I am looking forward to LBP PSP because it will almost certianly not have this problem. No Trophies= No H4H or spam levels, (just levels from people who want to share something they think is good) = No crowding of the Comunity Level pages with poor levels.

2009-10-20 00:37:00

Author:
Darth J464

Posts: 343

No Trophies= No H4H or spam levels

Oh... if only that were true... H4H is only marginally linked to trophies. Think about it:

What is a trophy to an H4Her: An intangible reward used for self-affirmation that makes you look good on your PSN profile

What is a heart to an H4Her: An intangible reward used for self affirmation that makes you look good on your LBP profile.

What is the difference: You can reach a point where you have all the trophies. You can never reach a point when you are forced to stop collecting hearts. Attributing H4H soley to trophies is a common misconception. Sure, it encouraged it, but it's basic human psychology that some people will do what they can to collect these things that make them feel good about themselves.

There is a chance you won't see H4H on LBP PSP, but don't count on it

2009-10-20 01:02:00

Author:
rtm223

Posts: 6497

As long as the initial quality measurement was sound.

i think guaging the initial rankings would be pretty simple for a player rating, basically everyone would be tied and then you get pushed up for placing good on levels. the more unique plays a level has the more weieght it has on pushing you up the ladder if you get first, and similarly the more it pushes you down. i guess more weight would have to go to the single player scoreboard and so on so you cant let other people skill push you up. I would imagine that if you had a single player score that would be used but if only a multiplay score then that would have to be used at significantly lesser weight. Maybe basically the 2player board would have half value, and 3 player board have a 3rd value or and 8th(2squared) and 4th have a 4th of value or 16th (2cubed).

i think the tricky part would be how to start off the creater rankings, as you only get 20 slot to contribute to you creator rank. and a lot of people have a lot of slots filled up, if not all of them. So reling on the already published levels would bring a bias into the ranking from the previous published levels becuase of the flawed old system, giving lame stuff like fast sackboy an edge. And ignoring them all together and would put a bias on people that have a lot published becuase then the only have a few slots to work with to contribute to their creater ranking instead of a full 20 unless they were to delete and and republish. This is the only area that i dont have a clear picture in my head of how to sort them out with out any bias.

combing the two rankings would be simple as just a product of the two would result in a sortable number that would produce the global rank and thus weights for voting.

It would be kinda of interesting as if you hadnt published any levels then then you would probably need to get a defualt creator rating near the median. And people that produce crap as judged by the community basically get penalized by getting pushed below the median, and now get lesser voting power than if they never published anything.

one thing i know i think we could start russelmuscles at the bottom of the rankings (thats the easiest part...lol).

implementation wise i think the ranks may be quite tricky as well in regards to computational power, Other games with rankings have simple values which to base rank on such as number kills and victories, or flag capture, kill to death ratio for a fps game. Theses you can set up a simple algorythm that just adds to that stat each time you play. In LBP the stats seem to be more dynamic. For example i am in 1st place and there 10k plays, maybe two weeks later i am in 100th place now with 20k plays and at the same time it went from a 4 star level to a 3 star level. Do you need to keep re-evaluating the scoreboards for changes (this would be way to computational intensive to implement in a realtime environment, with the vastness of levels available.) You would probably have to give a value based on the levels current status at time of completion to make it workable on the realtime computational side of things.

anyways i just kinda thinking about this as i go and throwing my thoughts out there. This is a really interesting statistical problem and i can bet that MM doesnt employee a statistician, but they probably should, As solving this problem is going to be very valuable in the future as more games go to this sort of play share create format.

this is the first game of its kind and it is quite obvious there wasnt much thought put into it. And since it was observed as a problem it doesnt seem to much scientific thought was put into it since.

2009-10-20 02:03:00

Author:
deboerdave

Posts: 384

Oh... if only that were true... H4H is only marginally linked to trophies. Think about it:

What is a trophy to an H4Her: An intangible reward used for self-affirmation that makes you look good on your PSN profile

What is a heart to an H4Her: An intangible reward used for self affirmation that makes you look good on your LBP profile.

I believe that vast majority of H4Hers are after the trophy, not the hearts. Unfortunitely, it is not possible (at least until LBP PSP is released) to prove either one of our statements true, but please read on to see the reasons why I believe we won't see H4Hers on LBP PSP:

Your arguement is based on your opinion that LBP means more to H4Hers then trophies.

Think about this: A heart will make someone feel good about their position in LBP (just one game) community, but a trophy will make someone feel good on the much larger PSN community (which consists of many more games). It is like this: Would you rather be a celebrity in your home town or a celebrity known around the world?

What is the difference: You can reach a point where you have all the trophies. You can never reach a point when you are forced to stop collecting hearts.

Actually, everything above is partially false. There is a point where you have all the LBP trophies, but there are more games then LBP that have trophies and there are more coming out all the time. There is a point when you have to stop collecting hearts: each person only has a certian number of levels they can have published at one time and once it is full they only have two options: Delete one of their levels which already have hearts on it (which I don't think they will because that will mean losing the hearts they already have) or don't delete them. Also, once their level is off the cool pages, I doubt even other H4Hers will visit their levels. Think about this: H4Hers make their levels because they are too lazy to make a good level, so I don't think they would go through possibley thousands of people who have hearted their level and heart them pack. They would probabley only go through like 20 levels before quiting. It is very unlikely that hard-to-get-to H4H levels will get any more hearts.

Attributing H4H soley to trophies is a common misconception.

I agree with you here, but I feel it is incorrect to say that trophies barely affect the motives of H4Hers.

Sure, it encouraged it, but it's basic human psychology that some people will do what they can to collect these things that make them feel good about themselves.

There is a chance you won't see H4H on LBP PSP, but don't count on it

Trophies, like hearts, are also things that people collect to feel good about themselves. I would count on not seeing H4H on LBP PSP, but we will have to wait and see which one of us is correct.

2009-10-20 02:23:00

Author:
Darth J464

Posts: 343

Not if it's what I refer to as a "legitimate" republish, for the purposes of actually making changes / improvements to your level. That's more important that the bump IMO. I suppose to be clearer I should have said 3-5 bumps per day, your ability to republish stays unlimited as before. The idea that you might have your hands tied while your baby was out there and you couldn't update it would probably break me - I had to leave work early when mrsupercomputer hit a level-breaking bug in setbacks in the first couple of days!

In fact, I'd go as far as saying take away the implicit relationship between republish and bump. So you republish and it asks if you want to "promote" your level at the same time. Plenty of times I've had to republish 3 times within 10 minutes because I'm a dufus.

What I meant is that if you make a correction it's because you want people to benefit it. I mean, you're not doing it only for yourself. In the current system, if that republish wasn't bumping you in the cool pages nobody would play your level therefore removing the purpose of making it better. The game already doesn't promote levels properly. We certainly wouldn't need it to promote even less. Of course here I am not factoring all your possible efforts on the internet in order to get plays/hearts/feedback. To me this doesn't count when we speak about getting the LBP design better. Also, we shouldn't have to actually do the game's job.

I also don't like the link with republishing and promoting either. I remember once I suggested we should have a "promote this level" button. But in the state of the game right now, that button wouldn't help anything actually.

Oh... if only that were true... H4H is only marginally linked to trophies. Think about it:

What is a trophy to an H4Her: An intangible reward used for self-affirmation that makes you look good on your PSN profile

What is a heart to an H4Her: An intangible reward used for self affirmation that makes you look good on your LBP profile.

People brag because there's a reward. If at the start of the game there was no reward (trophies) for show, people wouldn't be that obsessed by getting them. The game doesn't promote levels and it doesn't promote creator's pages more. People simply don't look at them, don't really go in hearted lists, etc. This is compared to a PSN account that everybody is looking at. It's a major difference imo. If there wasn't those ugly designed trophy it would be ALOT better in the community. There would be abuse just because no community can be perfect but it wouldn't be anywhere near the extreme we live through right now.

.

2009-10-20 02:32:00

Author:
RangerZero

Posts: 3901

2009-10-20 05:50:00

Author:
poorjack

Posts: 1806

But anyone can bump, so in stead of having a competition which level draws in the most plays (stars, hearts, whatever), it becomes a competition who can push the bump button the most. Bump is not a tool, it's just another obstacle.

2009-10-20 11:30:00

Author:
Rogar

Posts: 2284

i personally use level bumping (dont hurt me!) but i believe the republish bump is needed for creators like me. the aspiring, yet in the grand scheme, unknown creators. the bump is a handy tool to utilize against crap levels i think... like beating them at their own game. at leastuntil a decent filter is introduced. just my opinion as an honest creator.

I agree with something here.
To help the community and the quality of the cool pages, WE NEED great levels to be up there. People needs more example of quality so the overall quality rises. It's simple psychology. So yes, in order to help the bar raise, we need to publish more. I know it's fire by fire but it's all we have right now. The only thing I will always be against are extreme behaviors. Like publishing every freaking 2 mins or clogging the pages by publishing tons of level at the same time and bumping them all.

.

2009-10-20 16:00:00

Author:
RangerZero

Posts: 3901

eew! duplicate levels hurt jack... i only do one of each level, and choose ONE to publish bump. as they say, "always in moderation: please bump responsibly!"

2009-10-20 22:40:00

Author:
poorjack

Posts: 1806

This really needs to be fixed, i have noticed the annoying trend of OMG the ground is falling! levels lately, and i can barely survive on the community levels of the week untill they are replaced with MORE OMG the ground is falling levels...

2009-10-25 20:16:00

Author:
grayspence

Posts: 1990

ONLY YOU CAN SAVE COOL PAGES! (everyone reading this).

Step 1 - Create a great level and get it up there!
Step 2 - Drop down a few pages in cool pages every day and find a fun level (they're there I tell you!) and give it a play, a heart, and a 5 star to move it up.

2009-10-25 21:22:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

2009-10-25 21:45:00

Author:
grayspence

Posts: 1990

@ccdubbage: I wouldnt neccesarily just give it a five star rating, even if it wasa good level, id have to think about it first, you might want to change that so it doesnt deceive other readers I realse this may be sarcasm, ut its a little hard to know through the internet...
Nope, not gonna change my wording. If the rating system were fair I would agree, but if I see a great level that is struggling or has a less-than-stellar rating based on difficulty I try to give it a little extra nudge. If it isn't too good I try to rate fairly. I try not to bring a level down unfairly, but I am CERTAINLY willing to lift it up.... all I'm doing many times is countering low ratings from a bunch of kids who decided it was a 1 star level.

(reference to MrsSpookyBuz' ratings thread?)

2009-10-25 22:50:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

i agree that most "great" or "cinematic" levels deserve a bump, because there are too many people that think a level is crap if it has no skate board. Not to throw wild assumptions out there, but i bet media molecule wishes they could go back in time and not put a skateboard in the game after seeing the epidemic it caused at first, and that is (slowly) coming back in one form or another.

2009-10-26 06:30:00

Author:
poorjack

Posts: 1806

Yes and YES!

1. Yes I agree with Wex as well !!

2. YES!! genres and difficulties are what I have been wishing and suggesting for quite some time. The default cool levels could be your favorite genre or maybe the last one searched.

I'd never thought of that. The closest thing they've got at the moment is tags, which I'd rather see the genre system replace.

That said, tags are usually the only way for people to get across that a level is actually low quality regardless of the number of hearts (H4H) or plays (like my cheeky survival challenge).

It would mean going from a community defined system to an author defined system and theres nothing to stop people publishing their levels under the wrong genres to get more plays.

2009-10-26 14:20:00

Author:
Asbestos101

Posts: 1114

I'd never thought of that. The closest thing they've got at the moment is tags, which I'd rather see the genre system replace.

That said, tags are usually the only way for people to get across that a level is actually low quality regardless of the number of hearts (H4H) or plays (like my cheeky survival challenge).

It would mean going from a community defined system to an author defined system and theres nothing to stop people publishing their levels under the wrong genres to get more plays.
There's one thing to stop people from going under the wrong genres..... players would get irritated.... which would result in lower rating.

2009-10-26 14:26:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

Just taking a peek at the front page now...Must say, this is the worst wave of "Cool" levels I have ever seen...Seriously...The worst...It's never been this bad...Kinda upsetting how creativity is being completely overshadowed by crap levels.

As well as this, who the **** is "lemon_and_gravy"?

2009-10-26 16:21:00

Author:
KoRnDawwg

Posts: 1424

I am glad that bomb levels are finally dying down, but now there is an onslaught of these obstacle course, jumping challenges and the floor is falling levels. Some of the obstacle courses are really good, visually and skill wise. The first floor disappearing level was brilliantly original.
There seems that half of the first 3 cool pages are full of these unoriginal levels.
Obstacle courses should be good, not put together in a few hours. And should have some fun elements. Not just, 'Beat the high scores'.
And don't get me stared on the 30 jump ones...

2009-10-26 19:48:00

Author:
Jedi_1993

Posts: 1518

This definetely looks like a never ending story. If it isn't bomb survival it's falling floor levels. Those pointless trends will never go away, new ones will keep poping out.
God bless the day in wich we can open the cool pages and actually see cool levels, if that day ever happens to finally arrive.

Aww boy, I'm seriously losing all hope for that day to arrive...

2009-10-26 20:56:00

Author:
Keldur

Posts: 628

we truly are in a creative slump. we need to practice the 5 star bumping idea i think. where we rate a good level 5 stars just to bump it up. (btw, big fan of lafarges request)

2009-10-27 05:23:00

Author:
poorjack

Posts: 1806

Another possibility could be that a lot of the younger players don't like too much dialogue or well thought out plots and anything even remotely complex. I could imagine them mostly just wanted quick simple levels, especially ones where things go boom.

So I believe that to be a big part of it. And if I'm repeating something that someone else in the thread said, I wouldn't know since I only read first page.

So just figured I'd throw out my opinion on this.

As for myself, I find fun in everything, whether they are visual masterpieces, or made with basic things in create mode background/floor, story or no story, etc.

If the gameplay is good then I could care less how the visuals look, although the more visually nice, the more admiration I have. But no amount of uglyness will turn me away if the gameplay is good. But sometimes I am in the mood for those stunning levels that are high quality in all respects. And even levels that are more made for sightseeing rather than gameplay appeal to me also. It just depends.

2009-10-27 06:40:00

Author:
Unknown User

I agree with almost everything in this thread. I can only remember about 3 or 4 times when I've gone onto cool levels and seen the majority of them being good.

maybe even a title filter? Mm has said they dont like H4H, so why not filter out the titles containing the word "H4H" from being able to show up on cool levels? This would get rid of both H4H and the annoying "anti H4H" levels that have also become a trend. It doesnt end all problems, but its a start.

One problem with this, even if MM are against it, H4H isn't going against any rules in LBP- it's just using LBP to gain a false sense of elitism (which is pretty sad in my oppinion). Yeah, anyway, I really don't see the point of H4H, I mean... seriously, who goes around looking at how many hearts people have and making a judgement on it anyway?

BTW, they shouldn't ban the phrase 'H4H' becase then "Inside The Mind of a 'H4H'er" by Wexfordian would be banned and it's awesome.

2009-10-27 07:05:00

Author:
S-A-S--G-U-N-R

Posts: 1606

Yeah, anyway, I really don't see the point of H4H, I mean... seriously, who goes around looking at how many hearts people have and making a judgement on it anyway?

The point is to get the trophy that's it. If there was no ****** trophy for hearts you would not see that H4H phenomenon. There would be some people asking for hearts but since it's only on the personal side and that nobody would look at anybody's heart, it would be extremely rare you see that anyways.

.

2009-10-27 17:12:00

Author:
RangerZero

Posts: 3901

Well, Cool levels, I have to say aren't cool. MM needs to fix this problem but I don't know if it's ever going to happen. They still need to fix Play Create Share feature that always comes up with zeros. Truthfully they'll probably never fix it but I don't feel that its such a big deal because I have learned to ignore this page for obvious reasons. MM also need to keep the community happy with add-ons, Creator Packs, Level packs, etc. The community is just craving to much for MM to keep up with.

2009-10-27 17:34:00

Author:
Mod5.0

Posts: 1576

You know, it really isn't THAT hard to get a level into cool pages. I personally think the issue is there are LESS good quality levels being released - it's as simple as that. So, obviously if a level can only be cemented in cool pages for a week and there are less high quality levels being produced, there will be less there.

As I said before, make a great level and push it up there. Yes, there are great new tools coming - but there's plenty right now to work with.

I don't think its fair to go back to the way it used to be.... I had an IGN pcik AND a spotlight on this site... but had less than 500 plays with the old system.

2009-10-27 20:37:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

2009-10-27 22:43:00

Author:
KoRnDawwg

Posts: 1424

The point is to get the trophy that's it. If there was no ****** trophy for hearts you would not see that H4H phenomenon. There would be some people asking for hearts but since it's only on the personal side and that nobody would look at anybody's heart, it would be extremely rare you see that anyways.

.

Who goes around looking at how many trophies people have and making a judgement on it either?

Still though, I think without the trophy some people would still collect hearts as a form of elitism. Some of the H4Hers I've seene are way past the amount needed for the trophy.

Still, the trophy does play the biggest part, I agree.

2009-10-27 22:55:00

Author:
S-A-S--G-U-N-R

Posts: 1606

i dont think ps3, 360, or pc should have any type of trophies, achievements, or anything of the sort. the idea has ruined video games... trophies are now a major selling point.

2009-10-27 23:54:00

Author:
poorjack

Posts: 1806

Still though, I think without the trophy some people would still collect hearts as a form of elitism. Some of the H4Hers I've seene are way past the amount needed for the trophy.

Still, the trophy does play the biggest part, I agree.

Trophies ARE exposed. You can show them and easily see them. There's even the compare function. They are an integral part of their gaming. Hearts in LBP? Nobody even look at other people's profile, the game really isn't oriented community like that. It doesn't even promote your stuff.
There's always a minority of very sad people trophies or not but H4H would be such a small and niche phenomenon without the trophies that we wouldn't even be typing here. Collecting in the mean of purely collecting is extremely mega multi rare. People collect for a reason, for show. Consciously or not.

.

2009-10-28 00:03:00

Author:
RangerZero

Posts: 3901

i dont think ps3, 360, or pc should have any type of trophies, achievements, or anything of the sort. the idea has ruined video games... trophies are now a major selling point.

Totally agree with you there mate. Especially for the PS3.

I have never seen any practical use for the trophies system other than being a gimmick for people to collect.....much like collecting stamps, it may be fun, but....was it worth it?

lol

2009-10-28 00:49:00

Author:
Mr_T-Shirt

Posts: 1477

I actually agree with what RangerZero and rtm mentioned - that no matter how "Cool Levels" is overhauled - if there's ANY semblence of an "auto-created" popular levels page, it's probably going to look like what it does now. I don't think there's much point in overhauling it. Mass popularity is going to be what it is.

So instead, as CCubbage mentioned, the way forward is in implementing new search, browse, and tag functions that allow all to find the levels THEY want to play.

Genre, Difficulty, and Content categories would be great, you could fit everything crucial about a level into those 3 - they should be defined by the creator, along with an additional free-tagging system for searches (so you don't have to squeeze all the proper words into your title - for example, I have a Halloween level, but I don't want to put "Halloween" in the title - without free tagging, I kind of have to if I want people to find it through searches).

2009-10-28 01:14:00

Author:
Teebonesy

Posts: 1937

agreed. free tagging would be an excellent idea!

2009-10-28 05:04:00

Author:
poorjack

Posts: 1806

In that case I am completely and utterly screwed.

Lol! ^_^ Yes . . . yes you are!

i dont think ps3, 360, or pc should have any type of trophies, achievements, or anything of the sort. the idea has ruined video games... trophies are now a major selling point.

Well I personally disagree. Those are things that any hardcore/expert gamer admire as you get more out of a game after the initial storyline etc is over.

That's much the same as saying you don't think optional sidequests or optional super bosses from say RPGs as an example are worth it.

There are many perfectionist/hardcore gamers out there that live for accomplishing great things in the games they love, plus it gives more longevity to a game.

But don't get me wrong, a trophy related to hearts in LBP does cause a problem simply because the way the system works in the LBP community. But trophies in general are definitly worth their existence. They haven't ruined anything.

2009-10-28 07:00:00

Author:
Unknown User

You know, it really isn't THAT hard to get a level into cool pages. I personally think the issue is there are LESS good quality levels being released - it's as simple as that. So, obviously if a level can only be cemented in cool pages for a week and there are less high quality levels being produced, there will be less there.

It's harder than you think, though. My girlfriend published a level this weekend, and while it may not be as great as some of the levels showcased here, in my (obviously biased) opinion she did a good job. It has a consistent, clean look, plenty of varied action, challenging, and nothing obviously broken.

It's got 13 plays.

How is any level supposed to get into Cool Levels without being seen, I ask. She doesn't like to republish as a trick (did one republish to fix something I missed during testing :blush

. I've posted a recommendation here. But without the reputation, it's a tough job.

(Oh, gratuitous plug: it's Lethal Lounge by hobbitly, search for the PSN

)

2009-10-28 11:24:00

Author:
Rogar

Posts: 2284

same happened to my girlfriends level. reputation, and republishing are the 2 biggest ways to get plays, and it shouldn't be like this. quality should determine popularity.

2009-10-28 14:13:00

Author:
poorjack

Posts: 1806

i dont think ps3, 360, or pc should have any type of trophies, achievements, or anything of the sort. the idea has ruined video games... trophies are now a major selling point.

I disagree with this. I think it keeps people playing games and not just beating the story once and forgetting it. I think, for me it gives me a feel of accomplishment at the end of the day. Although, I think sony should make it as if you unlock more trophies, you get money to buy stuff of the PS3 store.

2009-10-28 14:43:00

Author:
Mod5.0

Posts: 1576

same happened to my girlfriends level. reputation, and republishing are the 2 biggest ways to get plays, and it shouldn't be like this. quality should determine popularity.

I agree with you that Trophies are useless and that quality should determine popularity but this does not happen and not only in videogames. It's like this with EVERYTHING. Face it, people out there mostly like what you show them and what you tell them to like. Only a handful of people are those determining trends and truly making society and art evolve. This is why the popularity of music, movies, book, videogames doesn't determine their quality.

.

2009-10-28 18:08:00

Author:
RangerZero

Posts: 3901

I'm not saying that people should judge your level because of the amount of trophies you have. I just think they keep people playing the games. By no means do I want people to be judged because of a small achievement.

LBSB

2009-10-28 21:26:00

Author:
Mod5.0

Posts: 1576

i just think achievements should maybe get toned down a bit. maybe we should get a trophy for actually doing something of merit. not for getting hearts, or firing paintballs fast.

2009-10-28 23:50:00

Author:
poorjack

Posts: 1806

i just think achievements should maybe get toned down a bit. maybe we should get a trophy for actually doing something of merit. not for getting hearts, or firing paintballs fast.
You don't think firing a paintball really fast is merit worthy? Come on! I worked hard on getting that one! Next thing you know you'll be knocking on the one for jumping really high!

2009-10-29 00:54:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

Yah I agree some trophies are very weak. Like playing with a buddy on your Friends list but like I said earlier, at least give us something that we can use.

2009-10-29 00:58:00

Author:
Mod5.0

Posts: 1576

rogar republish it behind her back

I would strongly disagree with the trophy system is the mother of H4H, If it was true they would get there hearts and stop, and they dont. its just a way for losers to look good and feel big without doing anything.

right now im hateing these " SUPER EXTREME LITTLEBIG CHALLENGE OMG THE FLOOR IS FRANTICALLY FALLING SUPER BOMB CAN YOU GET TO THE WATER AT THE END!?!?!" and "motocross" levels, atleast with the downhill bikes you had to adjust on the jumps to get the best landing but this is just lame when you just sit there holding R1, 50% of them dont work, 50% of them are just lame, 100% of them are uncreative. I cant stand to look at cool pages anymore.

2009-10-29 01:12:00

Author:
Littlebigdude805

Posts: 1924

yes. I hate those falling floor levels!! and the push r1 for motocross boredom... ugh! but seriously, falling floors and generic levels like that have to go!

2009-10-29 01:58:00

Author:
poorjack

Posts: 1806

I cant stand to look at cool pages anymore.

You don't need them anyways, you have this forum!

2009-10-29 02:00:00

Author:
RangerZero

Posts: 3901

thats what ive been saying myself

2009-10-29 02:05:00

Author:
Littlebigdude805

Posts: 1924

rogar republish it behind her back

Nah, I don't like the republish trick either.

I guess it's all about ego. People like to get recognition (regardless of trophies), and lacking the skills, they will do whatever works, whatever is popular and easy to copy. And obviously those levels are getting played, or they wouldn't be copied so much.

2009-10-29 09:51:00

Author:
Rogar

Posts: 2284

First time I looked at them in month today. There is quite a shocking collection of levels there and the one good level could new level I saw got 1 star and a H4H request from the same person presumably.

(Only had one play, you see)

2009-10-29 14:40:00

Author:
Syroc

Posts: 3193

I disagree with this. I think it keeps people playing games and not just beating the story once and forgetting it. I think, for me it gives me a feel of accomplishment at the end of the day. Although, I think sony should make it as if you unlock more trophies, you get money to buy stuff of the PS3 store.

It keeps people playing games and also make them buy way more games too. This is why Sony simply had to make trophies. Achievements on 360 have been really benefital. Unlocking money with that thought would be ridiculous and cut the already small profits they make with DLC and such things. This would never happen.

The only thing I find sad is that people are losing this sense of having fun with their things. In this day and age, you need to be TOLD what are the different personal goals (trophies) you can give yourself. You need to be told how to look at your games in a more out of the box way to continue having fun. I ALWAYS created myself achievements in my games since I am a kid. To me it's a defacto part of having fun and benefiting from what you buy. I fear that kids nowadays might lose this flair because they will mostly do what they are told. It's like a part of imagination that is dying. Or should I say, the ability of looking at your games a certain way and create yourself replay value.

.

2009-10-29 15:39:00

Author:
RangerZero

Posts: 3901

I fear that kids nowadays might lose this flair because they will mostly do what they are told. It's like a part of imagination that is dying.

All the better for my world domination plans. No thinking for oneself => No imagination => No dreams of freedom => No pesky uprisings => Evil overlords of the world rejoice o/

2009-10-29 15:45:00

Author:
Syroc

Posts: 3193

I have noticed a few things about the Cool Levels pages that are sad to me... Like the fact that really good levels, beautiful levels, levels with deep storylines like "Chroma Stone Chronicles" "the Chrystal Forest" or "Lost in Space" are overlooked and levels like "h4h plz" "impossible survival jump" and "the day the bombs fell" seem to be popping up all over page 1. Why is it that we over look the good levels? This is making me lose faith in the community. I have read comments on some of the very best (my oppinion) levels like "too long" or "i dont like the talking parts" why are GOOD levels being shunned? Post your oppinion, and pay the good creators a visit. Check out Morgana25, Second--smile--, Nattura, KagatoAkara, dan_e2040, kipmonlin, Metal_Josh... There are so many good creators out there... But so many go unnoticed...

I completely understand.

Some of my favorite levels are from kipmonlin. I especially love his/her twilight tumble level!

But, I will admit. I like trying the silly levels too (i.e. Jump/bomb challenges, and "epic fail." levels).

I depends on the mood I'm in. I always come to this forum to discover some great levels that otherwise may have been overlooked.

2009-10-29 17:43:00

Author:
pantspantspants

Posts: 189

the children are indeed losing creativity... look at legos. They used to be the best thing you could buy. As a child, i had lots of legos... but now days, kids dont like legos as much, and their popularity has plummeted. little big planet is basically modern day legos. and just as with legos, the creativity is falling thru the floor... you follow me?

2009-10-30 07:07:00

Author:
poorjack

Posts: 1806

2009-10-30 08:25:00

Author:
S-A-S--G-U-N-R

Posts: 1606

Even when you BUY leggos they are generally pre-designed things you're building. Goes to show even the leggo manufacturers don't trust childrens creativity!

2009-10-30 13:33:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

How can you spell "Lego" wrong twice in the same comment?

Edit: Speaking of Lego
Try this kids! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYlA3NV0rFA&feature)

2009-10-30 13:38:00

Author:
Syroc

Posts: 3193

Lego rules, even though you buy like a car.. With me it always ended up with some killer robot that could morph into different shapes.

The biggest difference between lego and lbp is that if you get something new.. your lego will still be there.. with lbp.. it crashes, has bugs and things never really get fixed.

I still got around 10k euro's of lego in a big chest in my room.
It never failed me, even when something new came out.

(nice to see that ccubbage is still around)

2009-10-30 14:42:00

Author:
Luos_83

Posts: 2136

You should see how much lego there is in this room

2009-10-30 17:00:00

Author:
ARD

Posts: 4291

sweet! looks like there is a correlation between legos and the lbp community! but i agree. legos are also becoming less creative, and through the comments before this one, we see that its directly effecting the cool levels.... **** you legos!

2009-10-30 17:10:00

Author:
poorjack

Posts: 1806

Yup, I think Legos are behind many of the child behavioral problems nowadays. Maybe we need to steer kids more towards Lincoln logs....

2009-10-30 22:35:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

I still got around 10k euro's of lego in a big chest in my room.
It never failed me, even when something new came out.

Well, I'm sure if all of us paid 10k for LBP then they could afford the resources to patch up all the bugs.... I don't know how much lego 40 quid will get you these days, probably two blokes and a crappy car

2009-10-31 00:41:00

Author:
rtm223

Posts: 6497

blokes

Hehe, silly...

----------

I loooved playing with legos growing up. I can definitely see a connection to creating in LBP and building with legos, but it takes it to a whole new level.

So, legos... what's the topic again? Cool pages suck? Go figure...

2009-10-31 00:51:00

Author:
comphermc

Posts: 5338

legos are unpopular because they charge $60 for a few painted blocks. In this economy its not going to catch on.

2009-10-31 01:02:00

Author:
Incinerator22

Posts: 3251

The trouble is they are not selling painted blocks, but identi-kit sets as Ccubage said earlier. Which come to think about it is pretty much what we see on the cool pages; ten-thousand bomb survival levels.

2009-10-31 01:05:00

Author:
Syroc

Posts: 3193

exactly my point... the lego part has led us off topic, but what ive been trying to say is we now have to be TOLD what to do with our legos. and we have to be TOLD what kind of level to make... people have fallen in a hole. Legos, Little Big Planet... Its all paint by numbers now days.

2009-10-31 07:25:00

Author:
poorjack

Posts: 1806

we now have to be TOLD what to do with our legos.

Sorry, but lego had specific designs on their products 15 -20 years ago. It's nothing new and it didn't stop anyone using their lego to create new things.

We are pushing a "kids these days don't have imagination" line here, and I don't think that's entirely fair on the younger generation. Most kids have great imaginations, but they aren't necessarily great at actually transferring that onto other media. Look at the paintings young kids bring home lol, they aren't gonna match up to an skilled adult painter!

Now the fact that kids copy the current trends on cool pages is nothing new either. Kids love trends, and love whatever's cool and buy into it. It's prefectly natural childlike behaviour.

Getting onto cool pages and getting plays etc is likely some of the only positive feedback these kids will get in terms of their creations.

So the trends on cool pages are all something that's easilly replicated. They are also trendy (by their very definition) and if you follow them, you will get feedback to reinforce that you are doing something good. Why wouldn't children go for that. I'd be willing to bet a ton of money that the kids from 20, 30 years ago, given the chance to blind us with their imaginations in LBP would produce almost exactly the same stuff.

2009-10-31 14:07:00

Author:
rtm223

Posts: 6497

Well, it's true that legos aren't complete crap even today. I noticed there are more specific pieces than in my time but there's still plenty of more neutral blocks. After all, there's not much neutral stuff in the creation mode of LittleBigPlanet either if you look at materials, objects, stickers, etc.
I think both Legos and LBP are worlds where you truly fan COMPOSE interesting stuff.

.

2009-10-31 16:16:00

Author:
RangerZero

Posts: 3901

all im saying is that children seem to go with the trends or do what you are "supposed" to do with lbp. i agree that legos are still a very creative outlet, as is lbp. but children players will tend to go with trends because they havent yet seen the full potential of the create mode. we need to somehow get more great levels onto cool levels as an example for new players. The creative ones among us deserve a spot at the top as teachers, so we can make cool levels, and lbp better as a whole.

2009-11-01 19:07:00

Author:
poorjack

Posts: 1806

2009-11-01 21:45:00

Author:
RangerZero

Posts: 3901

the cool pages seems to not differ than the "cool things" in real life. take kiisfm for example, lol

but the cool pages seems to run off a script, or an organized formula, utilizing plays, play to time ratio, and the amount of times republished. the more frequent ones are the ones being republished more, and then they appear on a longer but still temporary spot on a page in the cool pages, say page six. the more it gets the closer the page feature gets til it hits page one.

so i dont think its that they dont feature good levels, but just the ones that attract the most plays, therefore labeling it "cool" for it to be on cool pages.

there should be a whole nother section specifically made for levels worthy of great attention, however. that'd be interesting.

2009-11-05 07:47:00

Author:
Voodeedoo

Posts: 724

Just to further the Lego/LBP metaphor for a moment (forgive me)... Long ago, Lego pieces were themselves utterly generic, coming in a wide range of simple shapes that could be combined and recombined ad infinitum to build pretty much anything. They added gears and motors and I was completely thrilled by the power to make things that did something, spending hours doing nothing else, not eating not sleeping. Then the pieces themselves started to change, they began to be highly specialized and complex shapes and could really only be used to build the very things pictured on the box. This was in effect, a system that entirely discouraged creativity.

LittleBigPlanet came along many years later and I instantly rediscovered my childhood love for building things that did something. It was Lego Technic ("Expert Builder," for all the other old fogies out there) all over again! But here again the same pattern cropped up, manifesting itself in the fact that the most played levels, the ones that litter the Cool Levels pages, are ones aping something that already exists - a different video game or a film or another popular LBP level. No offense to some of the truly brilliant examples of film or video game interpretations that I have seen here - some absolutely stunning.

The real difficulty facing MediaMolecule is that -barring some phenomenal leap in AI- it's not possible for a computational algorithm to quantify that perfect mix of creativity and playability. So we have to rely on player ratings. But because people tend to search for things with which they are familiar (when search even works.. curses!), the cycle persists!

So a curated short list of actually cool levels would be wonderful. A rotating cast of reviewers hand-picks a few dozen levels, these stay up for a week or two, then new reviewers are picked. I.e., what LBP needs is essentially an rss feed from the "cool levels" page on LBP Central.

~oats-beef

--------------------------------------------
My Only Level - good luck searching for it

-The Accidental Astronomer
--------------------------------------------

2009-11-05 08:36:00

Author:
Unknown User

I HAVE A SOLUTION!!! i wonder why we havent thought up of it before!

For the past few years, ive been keeping a woman prisoner in my basement. isnt that cool? anyways, how about we have a list of levels, like a community spotlight, listing those few masterpieces worthy of being widely publicized into the naked eye? we can have some people to give several little reviews, as if they were reviewing a movie, but in the form of a paragraph!

yess..... so good, i can smell it. but i fear there might be a problem... of course, its in human nature, when one sees another one's work and is fairly pleased with what they have been presented, so therefore all other works by that particular person are considered good, and will be reviewed, too... how should we keep that from happening so there will be more room for other creators to have reviewed?

I HAVE ANOTHER SOLUTION! we'll pick out excellent creators, in say uh... a creator spotlight! not accomplished as to hearts and plays, but as to potential, ability, and presentation. we could maybe even interview them! but i fear another problem might accrue... would we be choosing creators that are ALREADY famous and known for their work while the others are still struggling to build a solid foundation for themselves under the circumstances and limitations of what the cool pages have to offer? or shall we pick masterful artists with little to no public attention to bring to the limelight, rather than those who are already popular?

hmm... this is getting difficult. not even a plan like this would seem to fully function properly. blah, this whole thing wont work, so forget everything i said. i do like legos, however. they taste good with syrup.

2009-11-05 10:05:00

Author:
Voodeedoo

Posts: 724

^^

At least it seems we can make fun of that crap!

.

2009-11-05 17:58:00

Author:
RangerZero

Posts: 3901

A cool creators page would also be a good idea eh?

2009-11-09 02:02:00

Author:
poorjack

Posts: 1806

Why keep on bumping the thread? It ran it's course already, we get it... Cool levels are filled with bad levels...

If you don't like this discussion then why are you participating? Also, your post brings nothing to the table while his does.

.

2009-11-09 03:49:00

Author:
RangerZero

Posts: 3901

I never said I didn't like it, I even gave my own reply earlier. Btw, your post brings nothing to the table.

2009-11-09 04:18:00

Author:
TheFirstAvenger

Posts: 787

I never said I didn't like it, I even gave my own reply earlier. Btw, your post brings nothing to the table.

If you like this thread why do you sound angry because it's bumped? If you'd still want to participate you would not step on the guy there for bumping/continuing the discussion.

/off topic

.

2009-11-09 04:54:00

Author:
RangerZero

Posts: 3901

Lol, I sound angry?

And you insist on putting words in my mouth, never did I say I liked or disliked the thread, my comment was never even directed at you... You decided to get involved. The Op decided to bump his thread in which the discussion was pretty much dead, not the first time he does it btw.

2009-11-09 05:27:00

Author:
TheFirstAvenger

Posts: 787

If this thread continues to go off-topic, it will get locked, along with a warning to whoever keeps pushing it off-topic. If anything, take it to PM's and settle it there.

2009-11-09 06:41:00

Author:
aer0blue

Posts: 1603

Ah, I miss the days when Geosautus' and Gevurah22's levels were up there, all in that little circle in Africa I believe.

Good times. :O

2009-11-09 07:20:00

Author:
Bear

Posts: 2079

A weekly, in-game, community spotlight that appears on infomoon would solve an untold number of problems.

An issue with LBP as I see it, is that you can't search for good, old levels, that you might not have played. You only ever seem to be able to find 'flavour of the week' stuff.

It makes me have to come on this site and trawl through the back catelogs of community spotlights.

2009-11-09 10:44:00

Author:
Asbestos101

Posts: 1114

Ah, I miss the days when Geosautus' and Gevurah22's levels were up there, all in that little circle in Africa I believe.

Good times. :O

That was quite awhile ago. =P

2009-11-09 13:59:00

Author:
TheFirstAvenger

Posts: 787

That was quite awhile ago. =P

And it was an incredibly broken and unfair system.

2009-11-09 14:19:00

Author:
GruntosUK

Posts: 1754

Yup, I would MUCH RATHER see it the way it is now. I was browsing through last night and found about 10-15 really good quality levels scattered about the first 5 pages. It was more than I could possibly play in a single evening.

Sure, there were tons of generic bomb drop, sinking floor, and other quickly made challenges that had been spam posted to the top.... but good levels can still be seen.

2009-11-09 15:43:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

And it was an incredibly broken and unfair system.

Yeah it was, although I don't like most of the levels that are on the Cool Pages I can't think of any other way the system could be more fair than it currently is. Before, many creators that are now popular would have no chance in hell to get noticed, but with the current system there really is no excuse to not get near the top of the Cool Pages.

2009-11-09 19:23:00

Author:
TheFirstAvenger

Posts: 787

i totally have to agree on that, they are full of the bomb levels where they fall and those levels were you jump, i have started creating levels called Agent Sack oh take that grin of your face

i got it from the avatar sackboy, the level is like james bond, i've just created part 1,im working on part 2, i hope you play it!
my username is Joe0202, lets fight and get the good levels back onto the cool page

2009-11-10 16:08:00

Author:
Joe0202

Posts: 5

2009-11-10 16:20:00

Author:
Tawarf

Posts: 457

By any chance culd one of those of been my level stiched orange 2! XD

haha i played that level, i really liked it : D, that should stay on there : p

2009-11-10 16:21:00

Author:
Joe0202

Posts: 5

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