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One line that we don't really see/use anymore...
Archive: 67 posts
| ''It's Mm quality...'' I was thinking that no one really says that any more. I think it's a great indication of how far the community has come. At one time we used Mm's level as the benchmark of quality (and rightly so) but that doesn't seem to be the case as much any more. I think the lack of this compliment in feedback nowadays is a subtle marker that Mm's levels have indeed been surpassed, and as a result, we no longer see them as the measure of excellence. Not to say that they aren't still amazing of course, it's just as a community I think we've pushed this game even further...which has left consequently them behind...until they wow us all over again, obviously...  They inspired us. We inspired them. Looks like it's your turn again, Mm! | 2009-09-26 19:48:00 Author: jackofcourse  Posts: 1494 |
| Media Molecule has been surpassed generally speaking. We have a bunch of 5 stars levels coming regularly that are equal or better imo. But this is because we are exposed to great stuff here in LBPC. If we consider everything that is made in the community of the game we are FAR from MM in overall I suppose. There's one thing that I still can see as a little difference between an MM level and most community ones: the polishing. MM levels have ZERO parts that aren't quite totally solid and it also never breaks. They are pros and they designs have been studied over and over so players can get through and so there's no possible defects. One community level that had this level of polish was StarCruiser for example. . | 2009-09-26 20:06:00 Author: RangerZero  Posts: 3901 |
| This may not be the direction you want to take this thread, but Mammett-box's 'A Royal Love Letter' series feel scary close to something MM would make. It's got the same style, flow, and everything. I hear what you are saying, but I still think that the MM levels are some of the best around. They may seem old now, since we've all played them so many times, but pop in and truly look at the levels - some of them are sooo well done. That's not to mean there aren't levels out there that are "better" than MM's story levels, but better is an subjective term. I would call rtm's Subterranean Setbacks level better than MM's levels, but it doesn't have the same charm. It really comes down to the style of the level, as MM's levels were all pretty happy-go-lucky and easy [for the most part]. | 2009-09-26 20:14:00 Author: comphermc  Posts: 5338 |
| Media Molecule has been surpassed generally speaking. We have a bunch of 5 stars levels coming regularly that are equal or better imo. But this is because we are exposed to great stuff here in LBPC. If we consider everything that is made in the community of the game we are FAR from MM in overall I suppose. There's one thing that I still can see as a little difference between an MM level and most community ones: the polishing. MM levels have ZERO parts that aren't quite totally solid and it also never breaks. They are pros and they designs have been studied over and over so players can get through and so there's no possible defects. One community level that had this level of polish was StarCruiser for example. . I agree with some of this. I think it's true that while their levels are being surpassed, it's still not exactly constantly, and only from a very select few of creators, (luckily a lot of them are here on LBPC!). However I wouldn't say StarCruiser is the level that defines 'unbreakable and polished'. Polished in terms of visually, definitely, but not as an overall level. The gameplay is lacking and the path is a little hazy at times (whether intentional or not). | 2009-09-26 20:15:00 Author: jackofcourse Posts: 1494 |
| This may not be the direction you want to take this thread, but Mammett-box's 'A Royal Love Letter' series feel scary close to something MM would make. It's got the same style, flow, and everything. I hear what you are saying, but I still think that the MM levels are some of the best around. They may seem old now, since we've all played them so many times, but pop in and truly look at the levels - some of them are sooo well done. That's not to mean there aren't levels out there that are "better" than MM's story levels, but better is an subjective term. I would call rtm's Subterranean Setbacks level better than MM's levels, but it doesn't have the same charm. It really comes down to the style of the level, as MM's levels were all pretty happy-go-lucky and easy [for the most part]. I had no intention for this thread...it was just something I noticed and thought it may lead to a good discussion...where ever that may be I agree that it's definitely subjective, and Mm's style is a very narrow scope once you consider in levels like Rtm's...because they really cannot be compared. I know what you mean about Royal Love Letter. That has some cracking gameplay and visuals in it. I still don't think the level as a whole is 'truly Mm' though. As in, I agree that it is 'like' something Mm would do, but you couldn't put that level straight into the story mode and it would fit in. (I don't think that's exactly what you were saying anyway but still! ) | 2009-09-26 20:20:00 Author: jackofcourse Posts: 1494 |
| Actually, I still see the "It's MM quality.." line used quite a bit and I think it's a testimony to how good those levels are. In my opinion, they are still the best of the best. They provide a complete package of visuals, gameplay, level design, and, as compher mentioned, charm. | 2009-09-26 20:21:00 Author: mrsupercomputer  Posts: 1335 |
| Actually, I still see the "It's MM quality.." line used quite a bit and I think it's a testimony to how good those levels are. In my opinion, they are still the best of the best. They provide a complete package of visuals, gameplay, level design, and, as compher mentioned, charm. 100% agree. They are the 'complete package'. They tick every box you need to create a fun, none frustrating experience, by doing all the things you just mentioned. That's why I used them as my only inspiration early on. I feel I've kept all that on board and hopefully evolved it a little nowadays. While some of their levels aren't packed with loads of different ideas like some of the online levels are. Once you bring in every aspect of what makes a great level (all the things you said, visuals, gameplay, level design and charm), they're still on top or right up there. | 2009-09-26 20:26:00 Author: jackofcourse Posts: 1494 |
| They are pros and they designs have been studied over and over so players can get through and so there's no possible defects. I think there was a thread over on the Workshop forums at one point where people posted all the ways to get out of the actual levels and onto either the floor or the logic boards in MM levels, actually. They're polished, but they're not perfect. Although to be fair, we're talking about people who went looking for ways to "break" them. | 2009-09-26 20:32:00 Author: Jagrevi  Posts: 1154 |
| I think there was a thread over on the Workshop forums at one point where people posted all the ways to get out of the actual levels and onto either the floor or the logic boards in MM levels, actually. They're polished, but they're not perfect. Although to be fair, we're talking about people who went looking for ways to "break" them. Of course I didn't mean they are possible. Every single software ever made is having defects. That's not what I am going to here. You need to read between the lines a little. I will help you: If I say "perfect" or "not possible" or any absolutes like that (therefore theorically impossible most of the time), take it as "as good as it gets" and "nobody will find problems except very few people". . | 2009-09-26 20:38:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901 |
| You need to read between the lines a little. I read between them, but what you meant to say isn't what you said. Thus, why the point is brought up. Of course you understood that there were possible defects - it's simply not what you posted (the exact opposite in fact), that's all. I was kind of responding to the post rather than responding to you, if that makes sense. | 2009-09-27 03:34:00 Author: Jagrevi Posts: 1154 |
| My personal view is that MM levels are, in fact, polished.... BUT this is more a visual thing and from my taste the gameplay has been FAR surpassed. And, in fact, I've talked to a number of people who recently purchased the game and after playing many community levels I suggested they really are not enjoying the MM levels that much. I like visuals and polish, but gameplay is much more important to me. For instance, I would much rather play HyperSphere from MrsSpookyBuz than play anything MM produced - it has a much faster, frenetic, and fun style. | 2009-09-27 05:03:00 Author: CCubbage  Posts: 4430 |
| Mm levels have a certain charm that not many other levels have captured. However, in the gameplay department, Mm has been left in the dust... For now. Now, don't get me wrong. A Mm quality level is still great. I believe that the Mm levels are the perfect starting point for new players. So many new elements have been created by the community that are now common knowledge, but a new player would have no idea what's going on. | 2009-09-27 05:08:00 Author: StrayFelisCatus  Posts: 178 |
| I still here that, I guess it just depends on who you are talking too. And yes there are Alot of levels out there that truly surpass even MM levels. As for the 'Royal Love Letter' levels being better than MM's levels, lol they are way too messy to even be considered. MM is great at making clean fun levels without cluttering them. Media Molecule has been surpassed generally speaking. We have a bunch of 5 stars levels coming regularly that are equal or better imo. But this is because we are exposed to great stuff here in LBPC. If we consider everything that is made in the community of the game we are FAR from MM in overall I suppose. There's one thing that I still can see as a little difference between an MM level and most community ones: the polishing. MM levels have ZERO parts that aren't quite totally solid and it also never breaks. They are pros and they designs have been studied over and over so players can get through and so there's no possible defects. One community level that had this level of polish was StarCruiser for example. . Can't agree with what you are saying here, there are plenty of 5 Star levels that are terrible. Also, while MM is ofcourse great at polishing their levels I have seen uploaded pictures of people on the Story levels where they are on the level floor. So not even MM can get away with making a perfect level. | 2009-09-27 05:24:00 Author: TheFirstAvenger  Posts: 787 |
| lol, now we can say "its mm quality", as a joking insult! For instance, russelmuscles, your levels are MM quality! But in all seriousness, noobs often take mm's levels for granted if they're too kiddish or not their cup of tea. We have to consider they didn't have creator pack 1 or anything like that. They also solved many problems that make the best creators cry in frustration, like the ingenius piston effects in the wilderness level where you rescue everyone. | 2009-09-27 05:35:00 Author: Incinerator22  Posts: 3251 |
| eh well think about it these levels were made before the creater pack and before we discovered glitches and every single level flows into the other and its all polished and it hits every fun aspect and it looks nice and its before all the DLC! i recently went back over some story levels and was suprised what i could find by going places you normally wouldnt think of. i thought i was all sneaky running around ontop of treetops then suddenly ide see some prize bubbles sitting ontop of the tree and i think "touche Mm, touche -.-" lol the term Mm quality gains in value as we gain more to work with, if Mm made some more levels today im sure we would all be blown away. | 2009-09-27 05:36:00 Author: Littlebigdude805  Posts: 1924 |
| And yes there are Alot of levels out there that truly surpass even MM levels. This means you agree with me because you say the same thing. When I said we are getting 5 stars level that are great and that we get them regularly, I never implied all 5 stars levels are great. Also, it was just another way to say "top notch levels", I didn't mean "levels rated 5 stars by the community. Oh well, I guess i'm really not expressing myself good today. You're the second person that couldn't read me right. . | 2009-09-27 07:37:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901 |
| Well, for me, it's still a compliment. MM's levels are specially BALANCED. Think about it: 2x-3x-4x sections, the best visuals around, fun gameplay (wich we can also call "innovative" since it was the first gameplay released), secrets everywhere, an acceptable curve of difficulty (something that many creators have problems on), an easy going story -not very serious, but still, enough to make you go from point A to B), ... ... and I'm sure that there are many more things that I haven't mentioned. I haven't played a single level that surpassed MM while keeping it's balance. For example, hyper sphere sure has amazing gameplay, but don't expect a story. Not that it is something bad; many levels don't need a story; but I' just saying that no level fulfills all the possible "fields" (visual, gameplay, story, et?...)in wich you can build a level like the MM ones do. So, what I would say that no, I haven't played a level as good as the MM ones, but I sure have played one that surpasses them in one aspect or two. And I dunno why we don't say "It's Mm quality..." again. As for me, it's a hell of a compliment. | 2009-09-27 08:48:00 Author: Keldur  Posts: 628 |
| All levels are unique in their own way. There's great levels but all levels have flaws. No level is perfect. | 2009-09-27 10:01:00 Author: BasketSnake  Posts: 2391 |
| I played a few Story Mode levels to refresh my memory and my opinion now is they are too short and too easy (probably by necessity) - but were perfect as an introduction to the game. They've been surpassed on all counts by the best of the community levels, and I expect MM would say the same, and proudly so. | 2009-09-27 11:47:00 Author: julesyjules  Posts: 1156 |
| Yes, there are levels better than Mm's stuff these days, but it doesn't feel the same. As someone said, the story levels have a charm to it that I still haven't seen been recreated. | 2009-09-27 11:50:00 Author: ARD  Posts: 4291 |
| Like ARD said, there are many great levels but few, if any, can be described as being like a level made by MM. I don't think achieving that should be the ultimate goal for a creator either. | 2009-09-27 12:17:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193 |
| Every creator has there own style. Mm has a different style to everyone else. So unless everyone used the same style, we can't really compare which levels are 'better'. No? | 2009-09-27 12:20:00 Author: ARD Posts: 4291 |
| They're also nothing new. MM like levels are fun (in my opinion) but they're nothing out of the ordinary. It's not something people would go, "wow! that was amazing I'm going to tell everyone about this level! " | 2009-09-27 12:46:00 Author: snowyjoe  Posts: 509 |
| Woah hang on a minute here. You're saying no one is making top notch charming levels in the community??? WTF??? Yes they are - as of right now I can't think of any because I'm hungover, but I played a level that had me smiling the whole way through, simple because it was so endearing. That level had far more charm than any of the story levels. In fact, not the same level, but "up up and away in skytown" has more charm than any of the story levels IMO. Oh, and that japanese platform/puzzler, where the flowers pop up when you get the solution - that has soooo much charm, it's a lovely level. And very innovative gameplay as well. I think to be honest people here are are confusing "MM Style" with "MM Quality". MM style is not something we see that often - because it's not everyone's style. Mammett-box's 'A Royal Love Letter' series feel scary close to something MM would make. It's got the same style, flow, and everything. See here, straight away, confusing quality with style. better is an subjective term. I would call rtm's Subterranean Setbacks level better than MM's levels, but it doesn't have the same charm. It really comes down to the style of the level, as MM's levels were all pretty happy-go-lucky and easy [for the most part]. I agree that it's definitely subjective, and Mm's style is a very narrow scope once you consider in levels like Rtm's...because they really cannot be compared. Every creator has there own style. Mm has a different style to everyone else. So unless everyone used the same style, we can't really compare which levels are 'better'. No? This - if we can only compare the level quality if they are of the same style, then you pretty much veto all of the great levels out there. It's not a fair yardstick to use. If you're just going say that people aren't reaching the same quality because they aren't mimicking MM then your point is moot, IMO. You can make subjective assesments on quality, regardless of the variations in style. For example: I'd say my level beats MM hands down on technical aspects, which is one aspect of quality. I'd like to think I've got the upper hand on gameplay. Storywise it's about equal and visuals... well they whup me on visuals  when you break levels down into categories like this, you can compare different styles of levels on their merits and on what they were trying to be.fun gameplay (wich we can also call "innovative" since it was the first gameplay released), Yep, this is true. I mean first steps... wow. I mean it's got running on horizontal platforms, running on angled platforms, even running on curves. AND jumping!!! OMG, all this stuff we'd never seen before in LBP. :hero: Nah, just because it came first doesn't mean that it's more innovative. That's just another case of making an unfair comparison. The actual gameplay in the game, other than a couple of cool physics based ideas, is pretty inimaginative. I haven't played a single level that surpassed MM while keeping it's balance. All of mrsupercomuper's levels, IMO, have all the aspects of balance that youi describe, and personally I think they surpass MM quality. My personal view is that MM levels are, in fact, polished.... BUT this is more a visual thing and from my taste the gameplay has been FAR surpassed. And, in fact, I've talked to a number of people who recently purchased the game and after playing many community levels I suggested they really are not enjoying the MM levels that much. But I'd also say there are plenty of creators in the community that equal or surpass MM for visual quality as well, mrsupercomputer, wex, icemaiden, gruntos, morganna.... As a community we have surpassed them in every aspect of level creation. It's clear why as well, there are so many of us. With so many varied ideas and skills we were bound to have some amongst us that were going to excell at individual aspects and some that were going to have solid "tick all the boxes" skills. were made before the creater pack So what? I can't think of anything, other than GLT, that couldn't be done before the create pack. Even lighting manipulation I'm sure was pulled off by some of the more skilled lighters. and before we discovered glitches Glitches have nothing to do with making a level good. the term Mm quality gains in value as we gain more to work with, if Mm made some more levels today im sure we would all be blown away. I doubt it. They will blow us away with new features, but them keeping up with several thousand creators and their 10 people coming up with ideas that those 1000s couldn't...? I don't see it happening. I'm sure they'll up their game and outdo themselves. I don't seem them outdoing us, unless it's like the MGS pack where they had tools ahead of the community (see my earlier point RE: first steps). I just hope that when MM finally get around to producing some more levels, we can turn around and say to each other Yeah, MM have done well, these levels really are... Community Quality :hero: . | 2009-09-27 13:14:00 Author: rtm223  Posts: 6497 |
| I think quality and style are both in the eyes of the beholder. These areas provoke a lot of discussion, and rightly so. There is so much variety which is a positive thing on the whole. What we sometimes forget, though, is how quickly things develop. On the whole, Mm will provide the tools and examples of what can be done with them. It's up to the Community to try to push the boundaries of what these tools can or can't do. I think Mm are happy to admit that they are constantly surprised and amazed at some of the levels which appear. They do notice, they do listen, and they do care. | 2009-09-27 14:18:00 Author: MrsSpookyBuz  Posts: 1492 |
| Yes, there are levels better than Mm's stuff these days, but it doesn't feel the same. As someone said, the story levels have a charm to it that I still haven't seen been recreated. I agree with this 100 percent. And there are levels that I like a whole lot more than the media molecule levels in terms of style, art, and even gameplay. But that charm is what keeps me coming back to the media molecule levels and playing them. I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that it was really fun to try to collect the prizes and get new costumes and see what new stuff you've unlocked. With user levels, you can't really do that with the limited profile space. Nothing against anyone's levels, mind you. I've played many, many stellar levels that are definitely "media molecule quality" or better... but I am just agreeing that they feel quite different than user created levels. ^_^ | 2009-09-27 14:29:00 Author: xkappax  Posts: 2569 |
| Even if the gameplay in MM levels has been surpassed by the community, I still hold MM levels as benchmarks for other stuff- most notably visuals. MM level's don't just look good... They also have a visual coherence which even the best community levels can lack. It's obvious why this is the case: players are limited to working with the stickers, textures and decorations MM chooses to put into the game, whereas MM's designers were free to add whatever they wanted to achieve their vision. But this makes it all the more amazing when the community manages to invent a fully coherent, entirely original visual style using MM's assets. One example which struck me was Basilisk Bog by mrsupercomputer. I remember that level being as rich and visually consistent as any MM level, while looking nothing like the things MM has made already. Another example is Up And Away in Skytown. | 2009-09-27 15:31:00 Author: Tig-W  Posts: 106 |
| fun gameplay (wich we can also call "innovative" since it was the first gameplay released), Yep, this is true. I mean first steps... wow. I mean it's got running on horizontal platforms, running on angled platforms, even running on curves. AND jumping!!! OMG, all this stuff we'd never seen before in LBP. Nah, just because it came first doesn't mean that it's more innovative. That's just another case of making an unfair comparison. The actual gameplay in the game, other than a couple of cool physics based ideas, is pretty inimaginative. I haven't played a single level that surpassed MM while keeping it's balance. All of mrsupercomuper's levels, IMO, have all the aspects of balance that youi describe, and personally I think they surpass MM quality. That sarcasm in there was completely unnecessary. We both know that when I said that Mm when I was refering to innovative gameplay I wasn't refering to that. And I completely disagree on saying that it is inimaginative. For example, the boss of the metropolis, are you going to tell me that it was inimaginative? I doubt so. Be it an unfair comparision, if you want, but serpent shrine, with all those serpents roaming their way trough the temple, it might have been based on a simple mechanic, but I don't remember seeing many levels turning something so simple into so much fun. And about mrsupercomputer levels, I agree that, as for me they are the closest thing to Mm's quality in every aspect, but I personally still prefer some of the story mode's levels. | 2009-09-27 16:33:00 Author: Keldur Posts: 628 |
| I was arguing the point that "it came first so it was innovative" and extrapolating that out to rediculous extreme to make a point. The point being that it's just a totally unfair thing to say MM's levels came first so therefore they are better. It's like saying MM's gameplay involving the paintenator and paintswitches was totally innovative, because they got there first. Paintgun + paintswitch = dead enemy - It's the basic dynamic of the paintgun. From a level design point of view, it's not that inventive. Obviously the paintgun itself is, but again that's an unfair comparison as we can't invent our own new tools, just find ways to use them. But I do totally agree on the bosses, in fact I was thinking of ze dude and his bodyguards when I wrote that and meant to add it as an example of MM being inventive, I clearly forgot that bit. The bosses are all absolutely fantastic. Top notch stuff and definately inventive. It's very rare to find bosses that good in the community. But most of the gameplay in MM levels is just "run, jump, swing, pull this item to here, jump on that guys head". Yes, most of the community levels just include that, but there are far more inventive dynamics out there, that have done far more with the tools available. . | 2009-09-27 16:51:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497 |
| I agree that Mm levels have been surpassed. All of the aspects have been surpassed individually on a regular basis, whether it be visuals or gameplay etc. However it is rare to find a level that that has all of these in one. Another thing that was mentioned that is very important is balance, and in so many respects. Not just balancing the gameplay (i.e gradually increase the difficulty) but balance the whole level so it has a bit of everything and doesn't just excel at one area and lacks in others. This is where the community struggles and only a small handful of levels manage it. In my honest opinion, I believe my levels do manage this. I think they'd fit right into the story mode because they do 'tick all the boxes'. The thing with ticking all the boxes; it doesn't necessarily mean every aspect is absolutely amazingly perfect...it means every aspect is to a high standard which makes for a very rounded, balanced, and fun experience. Which is exactly what Mm was trying to do to ease us into the game. They were my first inspiration and I tried to emulate that style AND quality, and I think that has stayed with me throughout it all, hence why I too make very similar levels in terms of visuals, gameplay, and difficulty. | 2009-09-27 17:53:00 Author: jackofcourse Posts: 1494 |
| All of mrsupercomuper's levels, IMO, have all the aspects of balance that youi describe, and personally I think they surpass MM quality. As flattering a statement that is, I actually disagree with it. While I would love to approach MM quality with my levels, I think I fall short. Now, I think there are creators out there that have approached that quality, including the originator of this thread, jackofcourse. However, I still find myself holding the MM levels high above everything else. Perhaps it's because I simply fell in love with them as I played the story mode and it's nostalgia from my first experience with LBP, but overall I think it's because the levels are so good. Yes, they aren't terribly challenging or innovative, but the level design is just so well done. That said, I can completely understand and respect the opposite view. The community has produced some extremely awesome levels. | 2009-09-27 18:44:00 Author: mrsupercomputer Posts: 1335 |
Perhaps it's because you are notoriously modest  . | 2009-09-27 21:36:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497 |
| As flattering a statement that is, I actually disagree with it. While I would love to approach MM quality with my levels, I think I fall short. Now, I think there are creators out there that have approached that quality, including the originator of this thread, jackofcourse. However, I still find myself holding the MM levels high above everything else. Perhaps it's because I simply fell in love with them as I played the story mode and it's nostalgia from my first experience with LBP, but overall I think it's because the levels are so good. Yes, they aren't terribly challenging or innovative, but the level design is just so well done. That said, I can completely understand and respect the opposite view. The community has produced some extremely awesome levels. Ummmm.... dude... I totally understand that as the creator it's hard to be objective - especially when you know what the mechanics are behind the scenes.... But rtm223 is right. Graphically, you are on par with MM... certainly on Zephyr Valley you passed them up. Content such as story, drama, gameplay - you passed them up a long time ago. And yes, you're notoriously modest. | 2009-09-28 03:53:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430 |
| And yes, you're notoriously modest. Agreed. Which is why we love you so much. | 2009-09-28 04:01:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338 |
| I still think MM's levels are the best. Even though I've seen many more impressive things from a graphical complexity standpoint, there's just something about them. | 2009-09-29 15:39:00 Author: Foofles  Posts: 2278 |
| I still think MM's levels are the best. Even though I've seen many more impressive things from a graphical complexity standpoint, there's just something about them. We are also biased towards them thought because we "learned" the game through them. There is a charm, a form of attachement to them that you will consciously or unconsciously feel. . | 2009-09-29 17:55:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901 |
| Only thing the story levels really have over a collection of great (not neccesarily the best) community levels with similar qualities is the cohesive style and bond between them, and the prize bubble system that gives them an immense feeling of reward and replayablity... it gives it an entire standalone identity that a top 40 levels list can't have even if that list displays a greater achievement in all categories of visuals, gameplay, style etc There's plenty of stuff out there that's gone above and beyond what was already there in one aspect or another (sometimes all), wether it was emulating or building on the foundation or really taking it in a whole new direction... in many ways the MM levels go unrecognized for much of their qualities that "MM style" (or "better than") levels don't have (or all the variety they offer as a package), and vice versa for community levels that do and have done so much more than what was presented in the story mode with whatever avenue the creator thought to pursue and elements they chose to prioritize. I think with what jack's saying, style is becoming more relevant than quality... most people know what they're doing now, so quality seems like a given when a quality level is found, but the enjoyment of it is now probably reliant on wether or not the style of the creator of the level in question is interesting, engaging, or memorable... | 2009-09-29 19:23:00 Author: Unknown User  |
| I think it's possibly too easy to think of the story levels as just one body of work rather than 18 separate levels. Out of curiosity and to further the thread, a question to those rate the MM levels above the community ones - How does your single favourite MM level compare to your favourite community one? (i know its tough to choose 1 community level but have a bash for the sake of the thread). (Btw, I'm only sparking discussion here, you like what you like!) | 2009-09-29 20:28:00 Author: julesyjules Posts: 1156 |
| I think it's possibly too easy to think of the story levels as just one body of work rather than 18 separate levels. Out of curiosity and to further the thread, a question to those rate the MM levels above the community ones - How does your single favourite MM level compare to your favourite community one? (i know its tough to choose 1 community level but have a bash for the sake of the thread). (Btw, I'm only sparking discussion here, you like what you like!) Yeah I think that could be interesting, or perhaps compare your 3 top Mm and community levels...just to average it out a little more. I played The Collectors Lair the other day and it has always been one of my favourites, playing it back though I seen that it really is lacking in detail in a few places, but for some reason when you play the level you kind of look past it and don't even notice, it's interesting It could be because the gameplay and mechanics are top notch, or it could just be because it's Mm that made it, they were the key holders at the start, because they were the first to create, they were the first to 'wow' us, and I'm sure that initial reaction has stayed with a lot of people without them ever questioning it now. If you played them back now properly and looked at them closely there's a few levels that you wouldn't be as impressed with as you once were, in my opinion anyway. However, you could easily say if you played some of the others back now you'd be even more impressed with them knowing what goes into creating a level! | 2009-09-29 21:24:00 Author: jackofcourse Posts: 1494 |
| If you played them back now properly and looked at them closely there's a few levels that you wouldn't be as impressed with as you once were. That is really spooky you saying that! I've just spent a few hours replaying all your levels ( ) and most of yours had the exact opposite affect on me!Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed all your levels as you've released them, but playing them again, they retain all that I remembered, but in addition I appreciated them more for some reason. I don't know if it's because I've learned a lot creation-wise, and therefore I can appreciate other people's work more. I'm not sure. Anyway, back on topic... lol. Sorry | 2009-09-29 22:05:00 Author: MrsSpookyBuz Posts: 1492 |
| Yeah I think that could be interesting, or perhaps compare your 3 top Mm and community levels...just to average it out a little more. To be honest, I never finished the story on LBP, I bought the game to create. I got 45% done and then used a 100% save to get the materials and stickers I needed to make a decent level. It was so long ago I played the story levels I couldn't compare them to community ones. I know that MM could'nt do anything; As humorous as Julesyjules take on Star Wars, As addictive as Cub's levels take on the classics Anything as beautiful as xkappax could As playable as yours Jack As engrossing and as impressive as NinjaMcWiz's levels As all round as excellent as MrSuperComputers As mechanically impressive as rtm223's level As much variety as Jaeyden has produced in his levels Not to mention Johnee, but is that now irrelevant Those are a few off the top of my head, I could think of many many more..... Maybe we don't hear it anymore because its no longer needed?? Its been well surpassed in my eyes. | 2009-09-29 22:19:00 Author: GruntosUK  Posts: 1754 |
| To be honest, I never finished the story on LBP, I bought the game to create. I got 45% done and then used a 100% save to get the materials and stickers I needed to make a decent level. It was so long ago I played the story levels I couldn't compare them to community ones. I know that MM could'nt do anything; As humorous as Julesyjules take on Star Wars, As addictive as Cub's levels take on the classics Anything as beautiful as xkappax could As playable as yours Jack As engrossing and as impressive as NinjaMcWiz's levels As all round as excellent as MrSuperComputers As mechanically impressive as rtm223's level As much variety as Jaeyden has produced in his levels Not to mention Johnee, but is that now irrelevant Those are a few off the top of my head, I could think of many many more..... Maybe we don't hear it anymore because its no longer needed?? Its been well surpassed in my eyes. Ccubbage is no CaptainCowboyHat tbh   | 2009-09-29 22:36:00 Author: jackofcourse Posts: 1494 |
| To be honest, I never finished the story on LBP, I bought the game to create. I got 45% done and then used a 100% save to get the materials and stickers I needed to make a decent level. It was so long ago I played the story levels I couldn't compare them to community ones. I know that MM could'nt do anything; As humorous as Julesyjules take on Star Wars, As addictive as Cub's levels take on the classics Anything as beautiful as xkappax could As playable as yours Jack As engrossing and as impressive as NinjaMcWiz's levels As all round as excellent as MrSuperComputers As mechanically impressive as rtm223's level As much variety as Jaeyden has produced in his levels Not to mention Johnee, but is that now irrelevant Those are a few off the top of my head, I could think of many many more..... Maybe we don't hear it anymore because its no longer needed?? Its been well surpassed in my eyes. Or as beautiful with a cutting edge story as GruntosUK.... Anyway, I'm thinking back to when I first purchased the game and a coworker also got it. He almost returned it. He said "It just isn't my kind of game - it's cutesy. I like games that have an edge to them" I convinced him to keep it, and the first time we both entered that room with the serpent in "Azure Palace" he was glad he did. Truth is, liking a game is subjective. The cutesy style, simple gameplay, and obscure story (STILL doesn't make much sense to me) doesn't appeal to me that much (although the final collector boss was pretty awesome). So, at least to ME the community bypassed MM a long time ago. All of the "OMG!!!" moments I've ever had that made me want to try and really put my all into creating came from the community, not MM. I'm not knocking MM - it's just not my cup of tea. Some early awesome highlights that really motivated me: The first time I saw Jaeyden's "Abyss" I was sold that I could do virtually ANYTHING in LittleBigPlanet. The first time I finished off the serpent in "Azure Palace" and walked out with my hands drenched in sweat. The first time I was mesmerized by the gameplay and story in OCK's "The Legion" The first time I thought I'd give a level by a "girl from England" a chance and went into Hyper Cube.... and basically in 30 seconds lost ALL my preconceptions of the kind of levels a lady would design. And the first time I wandered through the beauty of Morgana25's Chroma-stone chronicles (which I IMMEDIATELY put on the spotlight picks). The first time I played Takelow's "The Bearer" and thought it was a beautiful work of art. And finally... the first time I played NinjaMicWZ's "False Idols" and found you really could produce interactive poetry.. And there are PLENTY more (I won't even START with the new stuff)... Ccubbage is no CaptainCowboyHat tbh You're a funny guy.... | 2009-09-29 22:37:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430 |
| Ccubbage is no CaptainCowboyHat tbh I missed out to many, and you always do typing posts like that, Captaincowboy is up there without a doubt. Perfect 2d style platforming. Not as addictive as the first time I played Tiger Woods, or Vertigo though I must say Or as beautiful with a cutting edge story as GruntosUK.... You're only saying that because you're a character in the last level, and because I mentioned yours. Theres no need for favours The first time I was mesmerized by the gameplay and story in OCK's "The Legion" The first time I thought I'd give a level by a "girl from England" a chance and went into Hyper Cube.... and basically in 30 seconds lost ALL my preconceptions of the kind of levels a lady would design. And the first time I wandered through the beauty of Morgana25's Chroma-stone chronicles (which I IMMEDIATELY put on the spotlight picks). The first time I played Takelow's "The Bearer" and thought it was a beautiful work of art. More superb choices Cub, you really do leave to many good creators out when you first think. I actually forgot all about OCK with him not being around for a while, 218 and The Legion blew me away. And JackBurton too, his two levels, which I forget the name of at this moment in time, were excellent to. | 2009-09-29 22:45:00 Author: GruntosUK Posts: 1754 |
| You're right about the cutesy image Ccubbage. My friend really liked the idea of the game and he eventually got it. He played first steps and turned it off. He was just put off by the 'cute' nature of it. His actual words were 'It's like the game version Cbeebies!' I told him that he had to look past it, especially for the first few levels because they're especially 'child' like. But his mind was already made up. I've tried on so many occasions to show him what the game has to offer but his mind is now just closed. He still says he thinks the idea of the game is very good, adn that Sackboy is cool, he just cannot get past the 'cute' side of it. Offtopic...but yeah. | 2009-09-29 23:07:00 Author: jackofcourse Posts: 1494 |
| You're right about the cutesy image Ccubbage. My friend really liked the idea of the game and he eventually got it. He played first steps and turned it off. He was just put off by the 'cute' nature of it. His actual words were 'It's like the game version Cbeebies!' I told him that he had to look past it, especially for the first few levels because they're especially 'child' like. But his mind was already made up. I've tried on so many occasions to show him what the game has to offer but his mind is now just closed. He still says he thinks the idea of the game is very good, adn that Sackboy is cool, he just cannot get past the 'cute' side of it. Offtopic...but yeah. Definetly his loss jack | 2009-09-29 23:12:00 Author: GruntosUK Posts: 1754 |
| There's a few things to note here, guys. I believe that Mm are blissfully aware of the quality of some of the Community Levels, and are genuinely impressed and pleased to see what the community are up to, and how they use the tools from the game. Why should Mm constantly produce stunning new levels, when the community will do it for them? It's a good relationship. The community learn from Mm, Mm see and learn from the community. I like some of the story levels a lot more than others. I've had lots of fun playing them, but in a way they're the introduction to create mode. "This is what you can do, now go and do it". It's great | 2009-09-29 23:25:00 Author: MrsSpookyBuz Posts: 1492 |
| You're only saying that because you're a character in the last level, and because I mentioned yours. Theres no need for favours Actually, I think EVERYONE would agree with me on that one. I remember the spotlight list was due in about an hour, and I got a message from OCK saying "Hey, this guy GrantosUK just released Syberia 3. I can't get to my PS3 - can you check it out?" I quickly flipped on the PS3 and found I needed a KEY to get into it, so I had to play part 1 and 2 and THEN 3 so I could play it.... while under pressure. TOTALLY took me in and I suddenly felt like a noob. But I think, at least in my mind, this further makes the point - the MM levels never did that to me. Yes, they were fun... but the drama, the storyline... the things that made me feel like I had played satisfying adventure and made me want to know what comes next, weren't there. I'm not even quite sure there's a real ENDING to the story mode. It was kind of like "Ok, well then... go create!" Wow... kind of what MrsSpookyBuz said above me.... but less negatively. | 2009-09-29 23:26:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430 |
| I don't think that MM are at their best with those story mode levels, as some of you seems to say... The first goal of the story mode is to present the world and the concept of LBP to the players/and future creators and lead them to the Create mode. So it was their choice to make those levels, good for sure, but in the same time quite simple, so that the future creators don't fell discouraged before beginning : - Simplicity of the gameplay and mechanisms - Simplicity of the visual design : abstract style, big and simple shapes, not very detailled scenery, something that doesn't look too hard to do - Visible tools, switchs etc... so the players get used to them by playing the levels, and see at what moment they can be used... - Globally medium difficulty - etc... I think MM could do a lot "better" and complex than those levels, but it was not their first goal when they created the game. They just focused on the simplicity and accessibility to present the concept to the larger audience possible... And the story mode was the "shop-window" for that. Now sure that the community creators raised the bar very high, as there was no limits or restictions : they just made what they like, in the style they like. Let's wait for an eventual LBP2, and i'm sure things will be different EDIT : I just saw that MrsSpookyBuz said the same thing as me with just 2 phrases.... lol | 2009-09-29 23:28:00 Author: dajdaj03  Posts: 1486 |
| If you played them back now properly and looked at them closely there's a few levels that you wouldn't be as impressed with as you once were, in my opinion anyway. See, I'm the exact opposite. I will often revisit the story levels and I enjoy them just as much as the first time I played them. I mean, it's not the exact same, because I know what to expect, but I can say the same thing about some of my favorite community levels. They are still great, but I'm not as blown away as I was the first time I played. I think that's the case with a lot of media. | 2009-09-29 23:35:00 Author: mrsupercomputer Posts: 1335 |
| So it was a their choice to make those levels, good for sure, but in the same time quite simple, so that the future creators don't fell discouraged before beginning : I think MM could do a lot "better" and complex than those levels, but it was not their first goal when they created the game. They just focused on the simplicity and accessibility to present the concept to the larger audience possible... And the story mode was the "shop-window" for that. Very true dat. They don't have the luxury of being able to just not worry about certain groups of players. On the other hand they don't get given one star ratings. (laugh) I wonder if 'The Bunker' had been a community level it would have gotten a 2 star and 'frustrating' tag? | 2009-09-29 23:53:00 Author: julesyjules Posts: 1156 |
| Wow... kind of what MrsSpookyBuz said above me.... but less negatively. lol - you're a funny guy, too! | 2009-09-29 23:54:00 Author: MrsSpookyBuz Posts: 1492 |
| (laugh) I wonder if 'The Bunker' had been a community level it would have gotten a 2 star and 'frustrating' tag? Probably! The wheel of death had me so frustrated that I almost gave up. Overall, I agree that the community has surpassed the original Mm levels, but.. isn't that what Mm envisioned in the first place? Part of me thinks, "What else is there to do to push the bounds of LBP before we need LBP2?" And the other part of me thinks, "I still have so much to learn and so many ideas to try, I hope LBP2 doesn't come for a long time." | 2009-09-30 00:20:00 Author: Powershifter  Posts: 668 |
| No level is perfect. You obviously haven't played subterranean setbacks | 2009-09-30 04:02:00 Author: Incinerator22 Posts: 3251 |
| You're right about the cutesy image Ccubbage. My friend really liked the idea of the game and he eventually got it. He played first steps and turned it off. He was just put off by the 'cute' nature of it. His actual words were 'It's like the game version Cbeebies!' I told him that he had to look past it, especially for the first few levels because they're especially 'child' like. But his mind was already made up. I've tried on so many occasions to show him what the game has to offer but his mind is now just closed. He still says he thinks the idea of the game is very good, adn that Sackboy is cool, he just cannot get past the 'cute' side of it. Offtopic...but yeah. OMG!! I too hate thid dumb cutsey thing. I don't tell anybody I play lbp because they'll tell me its for babies. They'd laugh even more if they knew I went on this forum all the time too, lol. But I REALLY hate the baby thing. I don't know how lbp2 was brought up but when it does come up in the very future and is as childish as this one I'm gonna throw a fit lol | 2009-09-30 04:11:00 Author: Incinerator22 Posts: 3251 |
| Quote: Originally Posted by GrantosUK You're only saying that because you're a character in the last level, and because I mentioned yours. Theres no need for favours Actually, I think EVERYONE would agree with me on that one. I remember the spotlight list was due in about an hour, and I got a message from OCK saying "Hey, this guy GrantosUK just released Syberia 3. I can't get to my PS3 - can you check it out?" I quickly flipped on the PS3 and found I needed a KEY to get into it, so I had to play part 1 and 2 and THEN 3 so I could play it.... while under pressure. TOTALLY took me in and I suddenly felt like a noob. I should have had a and at the end of my original post Cub sorry about that. | 2009-09-30 09:51:00 Author: GruntosUK Posts: 1754 |
| I assume that all these people who can't stand "cute" things have never had a pet, or a child? | 2009-10-03 16:47:00 Author: Jagrevi Posts: 1154 |
| You're right about the cutesy image Ccubbage. My friend really liked the idea of the game and he eventually got it. He played first steps and turned it off. He was just put off by the 'cute' nature of it. His actual words were 'It's like the game version Cbeebies!' I told him that he had to look past it, especially for the first few levels because they're especially 'child' like. But his mind was already made up. I've tried on so many occasions to show him what the game has to offer but his mind is now just closed. He still says he thinks the idea of the game is very good, adn that Sackboy is cool, he just cannot get past the 'cute' side of it. Offtopic...but yeah. Haha, reminds me of something. Back in January, my friend got a PS3 for his birthday. Me and a few other friends went to his house for a sleepover, and he had gotten LBP becuase he knew I played it. So there we were, we loaded up LBP. We'd brought our own controllers Sitting on his bed, we all spawned in the intro level. Left Bank Two was playing and Mr. Fry's voice came through the telly, to the cutesy image of four little Sackboys. So we were playing for a couple of minutes, they seemed a bit...meh. So as we were jumping up some steps I slapped someone (in LBP). Everyone collapsed in laughter and begged me to tell them the 'punch button'. After that we were playing until 4am, when we finally decided to call it a night. There had been many arguments as to whose turn it was to play, and a lot of slapping (not just in LBP ), and quite a bit of laughing and shouting.First thing the next morning we were playing again, and we just finished the collector's lair when I had to go. I sniggered and said "good luck" as I left my friend to tackle the bunker. ...yeah, off-topic again, but... | 2009-10-03 17:01:00 Author: ARD Posts: 4291 |
| "I sniggered and said "good luck" as I left my friend to tackle the bunker." - Did he ever recover or did the wheel damage him for life? | 2009-10-04 02:16:00 Author: BasketSnake Posts: 2391 |
| I assume that all these people who can't stand "cute" things have never had a pet, or a child? short version I love animals and cute things, but I was nearly put off by the cuteness of the game. On the surface it seems very, very simplistic and lacking in depth. I very nearly fell through the cracks and became one of those that missed the point because of the cute veneer. longer version I nearly sacked off LBP as a little kiddy thing. Actually I did for about 3 months. I played it a bit on thought it was alright. Ir mostly came out at 3am sunday morning after my mates all came back round mine after a night out - it's a good game to play drunk I even messed around in create mode ofr a bit and sacked that off as really limiting, becuase I didn't really pay that much attention. It wasn't until my brother came round and got fascinated by create mode and wanted to play the tutorials that I started seeing create mode as fun. As he left he made a passing comment about how the switches seemed limited and there was no way to combine them... well that got me thinking and I worked out how to build some binary circuits, and it was then that I looked on the internet for more info about the game. It just so happened that a couple of guys on this site were chatting about feedback loops and such, which is how I ended up here 7 months ago. | 2009-10-04 02:30:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497 |
| I nearly sacked off LBP as a little kiddy thing. Actually I did for about 3 months. I think the reason why I'm not programmed to associate cute with an overly shallow game on that merit alone may be because of the era where popular videogames consisted primarily of Nintendo products - almost all of which have some "cuteness" to them. | 2009-10-04 02:48:00 Author: Jagrevi Posts: 1154 |
| I don't think it was entirely the cuteness, although it was definately a factor. I grew up with a SNES you know On top of that they really do push the simplicity factor. The challenge of the story levels is quite a low level and they really push the simplicity of the create mode as well. I didn't see any depth to create and completed story mode quite quickly. Story mode doesn't have replay value unless you want create mode stuff, and if you don't see the depth in create mode why bother with the online stuff. It's the cuteness and the simplicity that they push too hard with this game IMO, because it is a little misleading. | 2009-10-04 02:59:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497 |
| I don't think it was entirely the cuteness, although it was definately a factor. I grew up with a SNES you know On top of that they really do push the simplicity factor. The challenge of the story levels is quite a low level and they really push the simplicity of the create mode as well. I didn't see any depth to create and completed story mode quite quickly. Story mode doesn't have replay value unless you want create mode stuff, and if you don't see the depth in create mode why bother with the online stuff. It's the cuteness and the simplicity that they push too hard with this game IMO, because it is a little misleading. Exactly why when the game came out it didn't sell very well - but as individuals started learning the depth of the create mode and word of mouth got around the games popularity went through the roof. So, I certainly don't think we're alone. When I first bought the game, I went back to the office and told co-workers "I'd give it about 80 out of 100. Nice game, but cutesy and floaty controls". Then, after I played many cutting edge levels and built my own first level, I went back and said "Ok, I've been playing it for about a month. Now I think it's a must-own". I think a few of their original mistakes include ONLY marketing to little kids, and when they would feature user-created content they would show videos of things like ramp... | 2009-10-04 14:24:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430 |
| Wow, you guys make me remember my first week or two with the game... At first I hated the controls. I must i've been charmed instantly by the creation mode and could see the possibilities pretty fast because that's what made me hold on. If it wasn't the case, I would have sold it on the controls alone. When my head wrapped around the physics laws in the game, Sackboy became second nature and now I was completely hooked. I must say it took a good 3 weeks!! Alot of people must have turned off by the layer changing and the feeling of control with Sackboy. . | 2009-10-04 16:06:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901 |
| Did he ever recover or did the wheel damage him for life? He eventually beat the level, while I was playing with him online :arg: | 2009-10-04 16:08:00 Author: ARD Posts: 4291 |
| I think the saddest thing about LBP is the fact that so many players have apparently discarded it- without even glimpsing the depth and scale of what the game has to offer. There's a "most disappointing games" discussion posted a few days ago on the other forum I visit. Sure enough, LBP was cited within the first 10 posts. It's clear to me that these gamers probably played 60% of Story Mode, saw a few bad community levels in the style of Ramp, and declared the game a failure. It makes me cry  anyways, my proposed solution: people who think the game is too kiddy should be forced to play the Descent Series by javi_hague. people who think the game is too easy, should be sentenced to one day solitary confinement in Subterranean Setbacks. people who think the game is too simple... well, you get the idea | 2009-10-04 18:42:00 Author: Tig-W Posts: 106 |
| My friends on and offline have very little interest in LBP. It sucks. I'd love to have a buddy to discuss level ideas and stuff with. "But I'm stuck with you guys!" hahaha. When online create comes out though there will be lots and lots of collaboration and new level baby boom big bang'ish things happening. | 2009-10-04 19:58:00 Author: BasketSnake Posts: 2391 |
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