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LBP Tips Special 3 ? The Thermometer

Archive: 63 posts

Another tips video from us? How kind we are!
So, you’re building your masterpiece, you’re half way through, but suddenly OH NOES your level is overheating! The Thermometer has gone through the roof, and now you can’t add any more!

Well fear not – Kenny and John are here to tell you all about the Thermometer, and how to keep your levels from overheating. Enjoy!
<embed src="http://blip.tv/play/g5xjgaKSMgA%2Em4v" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="600" height="369" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed>
You can also watch this video on <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wouW9v3A_Ng&feature=player_embedded">YouTube</a>.


-------------------------

"LBP Tips Special 3 ? The Thermometer" is an automatically posted news item which was grabbed from MediaMolecule.com (www.mediamolecule.com). The original article can be found here (http://www.mediamolecule.com/2009/09/24/lbp-tips-special-3-%e2%80%93-the-thermometer/).		2009-09-24 14:50:00

Author:
Spaff_Molecule
Posts: 421

After all comphermcs hard work2009-09-24 14:52:00

Author:
wexfordian
Posts: 1904

Well, son of--

This makes me a sad panda

----

At least I don't have to do any research for lighting now, except for the specific figures. I suppose I can now add the video to my thread, as it doesn't cover everything.

"Copied objects take up less thermometer" - interesting.		2009-09-24 15:59:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

lol I new most/all of that already, but its useful for everyone really 2009-09-24 16:02:00

Author:
Fester21
Posts: 62

Lol Johnee
We need moar of these vids :@

EDIT: That section about lights is filmed in a pre-release Yarg :O		2009-09-24 16:14:00

Author:
ARD
Posts: 4291

Nice vid! Like comphermc said, the bit about copied objects is very useful.
I also didn't really think about how much cutting into an object would add to the thermo, or emitters.		2009-09-24 16:25:00

Author:
hilightnotes
Posts: 1230

"Copied objects take up less thermometer" - interesting.

WHat happens if you copy them and then edit them???		2009-09-24 16:36:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

WHat happens if you copy them and then edit them???

Than the effect disappears and are treated as a new, unique object. Says so in the video about a second after the statement about copies taking up less thermometer. 		2009-09-24 16:48:00

Author:
Syroc
Posts: 3193

The only thing i didn't know was the circle thing, i never would of thought they took up less thermo than a triangle 2009-09-24 17:25:00

Author:
Dexiro
Posts: 2100

I enjoyed that. 2009-09-24 17:28:00

Author:
Leather-Monkey
Posts: 2266

Lol, that vid is awesome, very useful stuff there

just one thing, was the story levels made with thermo too?????? cause some of those levels break half those rules 		2009-09-24 17:31:00

Author:
springs86
Posts: 785

WHat happens if you copy them and then edit them???

Simple. The universe kerplodes!		2009-09-24 17:56:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

Great, but a bit late in the day.

I wish I'd known that about circles sooner. With every circle I've ever made, I've been deleting half the vertices in an attempt to save space, but now it seems I was actually adding more to the thermo. 		2009-09-24 18:27:00

Author:
Ungreth
Posts: 2130

Really informative and interesting. Nice one guys! 2009-09-24 18:35:00

Author:
Mr_T-Shirt
Posts: 1477

YEEEEEAAAAAHHHHHH!!!
Take that, thermominator!		2009-09-24 19:03:00

Author:
SPONGMONKEY56
Posts: 209

Interesting and useful info. I'm surprised at how many myths and ill-informed notions were busted by the people who actually are qualified to remark on the intricacies of how the thermo is affected by materials and shapes etc.2009-09-24 19:08:00

Author:
Rustbukkit
Posts: 1737

Actually just got round to watching that video (I couldn't work out which of syroc and comphermc was telling the truth) and it's alright.

I can't believe there are spouting that **** about 4 materials, not mentioning separate thermos and total max emitted on emitters 		2009-09-24 19:56:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

I wish I could watch that video but it just keeps stopping every few seconds ( buffering ?? ) which is a real pain in the *ss.

Anyway I gather from the posts already that using circles is good ? I've been using them a lot ever since I started creating. I've always used a small circle of DM to hold things in place but after seeing comphermc's thread yesterday about triangles being better I started using them today. I guess this means I should go back to using circles again does it ?

I'll try to watch that video if it ever loads anyway.

EDIT: Well I finally managed to watch it and am now totally confused. That was no help whatsoever. I agree with rtm on this one. They've just contradicted several 'known facts' and even contradicted themselves during that video.

They said DM takes up virtually zero and that circles are the best shape to use. Then they said to glue things with a DM 'triangle' !! Eh, make your mind up guys.
Also when it showed them changing the complex shape of the weighhtlifter's barbell and replacing them with circles did you notice the thermo didn't change at all ! so what's all that about.

BTW it's all very well them spouting about splitting your levels into separate ones if they're too big but neglect to mention we have only 20 levels to play with whereas they had 50+ in story mode.		2009-09-24 20:20:00

Author:
mistervista
Posts: 2210

In vid, triangles for DM, circles for everything else, i think, they used a triangle of DM in the vid2009-09-24 20:35:00

Author:
springs86
Posts: 785

In vid, triangles for DM, circles for everything else, i think, they used a triangle of DM in the vid

But they said that circles have zero vertices, so wouldn't it make more sense to use a circle, especially if you have a lot of them?		2009-09-24 20:44:00

Author:
BSprague
Posts: 2325

That was helpful.2009-09-24 20:45:00

Author:
KQuinn94Z
Posts: 1758

But they said that circles have zero vertices, so wouldn't it make more sense to use a circle, especially if you have a lot of them?

Yeah exactly !!

BTW kzq07, I don't know but think that may be a different John.

BTWBTW I see this is Tips Special 3. I didn't even know there had been 1 and 2, has anyone seen them ?		2009-09-24 20:48:00

Author:
mistervista
Posts: 2210

BTW kzq07, I don't know but think that may be a different John.

I'm pretty certain it's Johnee.
I said 'Lol johnee' or something and he thanked me...so...yup.		2009-09-24 20:51:00

Author:
ARD
Posts: 4291

I'm pretty certain it's Johnee.
I said 'Lol johnee' or something and he thanked me...so...yup.

Oh yeah sorry, ignore my comment then lol.		2009-09-24 20:55:00

Author:
mistervista
Posts: 2210

BTWBTW I see this is Tips Special 3. I didn't even know there had been 1 and 2, has anyone seen them ?

You can find the other two on Youtube. One is about survival challenges and the second one is about simple logic.		2009-09-24 20:59:00

Author:
BSprague
Posts: 2325

Yeah... uhh.... this one have been useful last year.... Most of what what was said was already known. =(2009-09-24 21:09:00

Author:
TheFirstAvenger
Posts: 787

yeah most people already know all this2009-09-24 21:35:00

Author:
rseah
Posts: 2701

Well they've just released game of the year, so there will be plenty of newcomers who don't know how the thermometer works.2009-09-24 21:43:00

Author:
Matt 82
Posts: 1096

I didn't know...

It was very helpful to me. 		2009-09-24 21:45:00

Author:
hilightnotes
Posts: 1230

I didnt know as well, especially about the circle bit.

I think they dont use DM circles because it you attach rod, piston, winch, etc to it, I think the game considers it now no longer a perfect circle (like how they said if you edit a circle it just makes a ton of vertices.) Just my thoughts.		2009-09-24 23:22:00

Author:
King_Tubb
Posts: 435

The sound won't work on the videos...
Did anybody notice that when the thermometer was hitting sackboy (lol), the wobble bolt was slightly acting differently than a normal wobble bolt?
EDIT: The sound seems to work on the video in LBPC.		2009-09-25 03:02:00

Author:
warlord_evil
Posts: 4193

So a semicircle uses more vertices than a triangle?
What happens when you cut a circle into a bigger circle?		2009-09-25 03:20:00

Author:
midnight_heist
Posts: 2513

So a semicircle uses more vertices than a triangle?
What happens when you cut a circle into a bigger circle?

If it's 2 perfect circles, you're find. This means its the simplest shape memory wise after a circle.

------------------------

Nice videos. Basically confirming the knowledge we already had here :/

.		2009-09-25 05:08:00

Author:
RangerZero
Posts: 3901

I still don't understand how a circle wheter perfect or not, uses less termo than a triangle.
A circle has 10 or more angles... or am I becoming paranoical???		2009-09-25 21:00:00

Author:
poms
Posts: 383

I still don't understand how a circle wheter perfect or not, uses less termo than a triangle.
A circle has 10 or more angles... or am I becoming paranoical???

The game knows automatically how to register a perfect circle, so it doesn't have to count sides or anything. If the circle is perfect, the game just says, "Ok, so a circle goes here." It doesn't have to say, "Ok, so I have to draw edges here, here, here, here, and here."		2009-09-25 21:15:00

Author:
BSprague
Posts: 2325

I get it now - wouldn't have believed it before seeing it but it makes total sense now... dang all those times I didn't use "perfect" circles. Oh well, live and learn.2009-09-25 22:05:00

Author:
Morgana25
Posts: 5983

The game knows automatically how to register a perfect circle, so it doesn't have to count sides or anything. If the circle is perfect, the game just says, "Ok, so a circle goes here." It doesn't have to say, "Ok, so I have to draw edges here, here, here, here, and here."

So obviously the thermo is most affected by how the engine draws vertices, not how many vertices are on screen at once (at least not as much). Yes, circles do have vertices, and many of them at that. But I think they were talking in terms of "manually mapped" vertices, not ones that actually exist in video memory. I was thinking "Hey, wait a minute..." when I first saw that part.

...But wait! He says to avoid using carved shapes... predefined shapes... just like circles. How are those any different? Another contradicting statement, I suppose. I think that the reason that copied objects use less thermo (if that's correct), is because, as suggested above, the engine would have to draw unique objects manually, instead of simply copying existing ones. In other words, the cell processor is likely quite good at handling thousands of vertices at once; it's the game engine that limits the system in this case. If you guys can wrap your heads around that...

As the for the emitters, what he's saying is indeed true, as the game engine predicts how much thermo will be used once a maximum number of an objects is emitted. I had no idea the max emitted number would have any impact on thermo though. I suppose the above explains that too.

Lights are interesting. They use hardware-accelerated drawing techniques, which are resource heavy. This is why the game slows down so much and lights don't show up in photos. The same concept applies with print-screening a video played in Windows Media Player (if WMP is configured to use hardware-accelerated video drawing). The same goes for other effects, such as fire, smoke, and the like.

All in all, the video is somewhat helpful, but definately contradicting in some ways.
(I feel like I just wrote an essay! :eek		2009-09-25 23:18:00

Author:
Unknown User

I've been struggling against a maxed-out thermo for the last few weeks. It didn't take me long to realise I had to optimise all my emitters 110%


For example.... I was emitting some creatures, each of which could emit paintballs.


Now, I wouldn't really expect paintballs to have much impact on the thermo. But changing the paintball emitter's "maximum number at once" from 20 to 5 released a surprisingly large chunk of complexity.


Because the thermometer assumes that every emitter will emit everything simultaneously, it was seeing 180 paintballs in my level at once. (20 paintballs maximum x 9 enemies maximum). After one tweak, that number must have gone down to 36.


Now after all that fiddling about, I only just found out about the 'emitter trick'.
Placing an emitter with a maximum number of one- then capturing that emitter and have another emitter recreate it over and over- will generate any number of duplicates for the cost of a single object.
I'm afraid to use it though, in case it melts something. :kz:		2009-09-26 02:23:00

Author:
Tig-W
Posts: 106

Let me explain circles to you all:

It's all to do with collision detection. Any other shape has n sides. To detect collisions you have to check whether each of those sides are going to pass through something else.

With a circle you don't need to describe it as an object with 20 edges. You can think of it as a single point with a radius. Rather than check all of the 20 edges, they just check whether the centre of the circle is more that the radius away from everything.

One way to help you understand this is to make a huge circle and run around on the top of it. You will always be the same distance from the centre, regardless of where the edges are.



As the for the emitters, what he's saying is indeed true, as the game engine predicts how much thermo will be used once a maximum number of an objects is emitted. I had no idea the max emitted number would have any impact on thermo though. I suppose the above explains that too.

Max at once, not max. The thermo won't predict how much is used by the max total. If max at once < max emitted, then you can never reach max emitted. It would be plain stupid for them to use that figure.

I know he says it but I'd rather not believe it when all the evidence points in the opposite direction


@Tig-W, your emitters in emitters trick can be used, but bear in mind the thermo can still be exploded duing play mode. If you use this extensively then you will see emitters stopping from working. One way you can be safe with it is to destroy large chunks of your level, once the player is past them, this will lower thermo and allow you to use potentially thermo-breaking techniques. However - use this at your own peril!!!!		2009-09-26 11:11:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

I used the emiter in an emiter trick for digitezed reality: the lab. It was the only way to get those background effects and the 7 trains in the levels at once. Its was alot of fun finding ways to destroy things after the player has passed them.2009-09-26 14:34:00

Author:
SteveBigGuns
Posts: 423

Ahhh I knew someone had done it, I couldn't remember who though I came up with the idea a few months ago, but never had any reason to try it out (no repeated sections / objects in the level).2009-09-26 14:45:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

I always wanted to use use the technique too, but didnt have any use for it execpt maybe in mini game levels. These levels are usually in a single area and and dont overheat the level (although my new pong survival has).2009-09-26 14:56:00

Author:
SteveBigGuns
Posts: 423

Finally we won't get dozens of threads in the help forum that say ?I HATE THAT STOOPID THERMOMINATOR!!!? lol2009-09-26 18:13:00

Author:
Incinerator22
Posts: 3251

rtm223, your circle theory is very clever. So it seems that, as expected, collision detection plays the biggest role in thermo usage.2009-09-26 19:01:00

Author:
Unknown User

Thanks that really helps! I always wodered how it works to!:arg:2009-09-26 19:34:00

Author:
sensieclemente3
Posts: 4

...But wait! He says to avoid using carved shapes... predefined shapes... just like circles. How are those any different? Another contradicting statement, I suppose. I think that the reason that copied objects use less thermo (if that's correct), is because, as suggested above, the engine would have to draw unique objects manually, instead of simply copying existing ones. In other words, the cell processor is likely quite good at handling thousands of vertices at once; it's the game engine that limits the system in this case. If you guys can wrap your heads around that...


Actually, the cell is a processor. It simply calculates. The bottleneck here is memory. The cell can probably calculate 10x anything you see on screen in LittleBigPlanet, its just that the PS3 simply don't have the available memory to hold it all. There's only 256mb of memory in there in TOTAL. And that memory is seperated in the hardware for different tasks so it's not all graphics, sound or calculations.



Let me explain circles to you all:

It's all to do with collision detection. Any other shape has n sides. To detect collisions you have to check whether each of those sides are going to pass through something else.

With a circle you don't need to describe it as an object with 20 edges. You can think of it as a single point with a radius. Rather than check all of the 20 edges, they just check whether the centre of the circle is more that the radius away from everything.



This would be the only possible explanation for their perfect circle thing to be true. It would simply means that there 2 types of collisions running at the same time in their engine and that's not an uncommon phenomenon in game devellopment. Otherwise it's IMPOSSIBLE a circle takes less memory.

There should be of us actually doing a little test before even trusting this hypothesis. If we drop as many default sized squares of a material as we can in a blank level and as many default sized perfect circles of the same material in another blank level, it will prove that circles are taking less memory -- or not.

.		2009-09-26 20:00:00

Author:
RangerZero
Posts: 3901

There should be of us actually doing a little test before even trusting this hypothesis. If we drop as many default sized squares of a material as we can in a blank level and as many default sized perfect circles of the same material in another blank level, it will prove that circles are taking less memory -- or not.

.

CC is way ahead of you on that one. From the Thermo Overview Thread:


Ok, I've run some basic tests, and here's the data:

As a preamble, these tests were run in a completely empty level void of anything except the basic background and Sackboy. All items placed down were 2 small grid spaces in width and in height, not counting the triangle shape which does not extend all the way to the top of a 2x2 square, and all items were thin (though preliminary testing showed that thickness has no effect).

The level overheated after placing...


1400 dark matter circles.
2500 dark matter squares.
2500 dark matter triangles.
1400 cardboard circles.
1500 cardboard squares.
1500 cardboard triangles.

This means that contrary to what Mm's thermometer video says, circles are not the least thermo-heavy items. In fact, they did worse in all tests. It seems that using triangles over squares has no discernible effect either.

So, it's clear that circles take slightly more memory, but not a whole lot more. It's interesting that squares and triangles are equivalent.		2009-09-27 03:08:00

Author:
comphermc
Posts: 5338

[QUOTE=rtm223;297804]Let me explain circles to you all:

It's all to do with collision detection. Any other shape has n sides. To detect collisions you have to check whether each of those sides are going to pass through something else.

With a circle you don't need to describe it as an object with 20 edges. You can think of it as a single point with a radius. Rather than check all of the 20 edges, they just check whether the centre of the circle is more that the radius away from everything.

One way to help you understand this is to make a huge circle and run around on the top of it. You will always be the same distance from the centre, regardless of where the edges are.
QUOTE]

Thank you. I get in now. BTW, has anyone played the level wher a guy found the glitch that a nonagon (nine sided polygon) acts like a perfect circle? It all makes sense now...		2009-09-27 04:08:00

Author:
Incinerator22
Posts: 3251

Have we tried any of this with any of the other materials?

How many octagons does it take to blow a level's top?

Rather trivial, I understand, but now I'm curious; why would Media Molecule lie to us in the first place?		2009-09-27 04:10:00

Author:
SLS10
Posts: 1129

ok so basically, mm's vid contradicts itself and is wrong in many fields? That's the impression I'm getting. Plus I didn't learn a thing except that mm is so screwed up circles use less thermo that triangles... Someone who actually knows what they're talking about, someone smart with a thermometer, should make a post in the tutorials section.2009-09-27 04:15:00

Author:
Incinerator22
Posts: 3251

CC is way ahead of you on that one. From the Thermo Overview Thread:



So, it's clear that circles take slightly more memory, but not a whole lot more. It's interesting that squares and triangles are equivalent.

LOL exactly what I wanted to see. Therefore RTM's theory are obsolete now. We have our confirmation that Media Molecule are bull. It's ridiculous to misinform people like that really. This unless CC didn't test the thing properly but I really doubt he did.

Can I have another little stab? please... Ok here goes:
When you have a dev like Media Molecule releasing a game that is barely beta state, having features still broken after a year + introducing almost as much bugs than fixes with every single patch, i'm not wondering if it's possible that they don't even know their game all that much and they totally can misinform people.

All in all you know what I think? This thread is a really sad story.

.		2009-09-27 07:29:00

Author:
RangerZero
Posts: 3901

Therefore RTM's theory are obsolete now. What? My theory is still sound. The circle does use different collision detection to other objects. I never said it was more thermo efficient than a triangle, just that it is more efficient than an icosogon.... MM said it was more efficient than a triangle.




if it's possible that they don't even know their game all that much and they totally can misinform people.

I'm just gonna go ahead and post what I did in the other thread:

I can think of three or four points where the info they give in the video goes against all the evidence I've seen. We have to bear in mind, these aren't the people that made the thermo algorithms. While it should have been thoroughly checked by the engineers beforehand, maybe it wasn't, they probably have plenty on with bugfixes and new feature additions. It's not like it matters that much to MM if there are slight errors in their video afterall.


At the end of the day, it's PR exercise. This video, despite being misleading, will actually help a lot of people... those people will be like "oh yeah MM they're great". Not everyone is as cynical as you and I.		2009-09-27 12:37:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

I knew that Mm's circle theory couldn't be true because I've actually never seen a circle in LittleBigPlanet. Take out your circle tool, place a circle, select it and make it much larger. You'll notice that it actually has a lot of corners, making it so tough on the thermometer.2009-09-27 12:57:00

Author:
Killian
Posts: 2575

I knew that Mm's circle theory couldn't be true because I've actually never seen a circle in LittleBigPlanet. Take out your circle tool, place a circle, select it and make it much larger. You'll notice that it actually has a lot of corners, making it so tough on the thermometer.

As I said, it's not drawn as a circle, it's drawn as an icosogon. But the collision detection is done on a perfect circle.

You take that massive circle and run on the top of it - you will not be running on the 20 edges, you are running on the circle. Try it. Go on 		2009-09-27 13:24:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

hey we should consider MM is a small company, They live above a washing machine shop for crying out loud, maybe they dont have enough in the budget to hire engineers so we cant have a go at them for accidently releasing bugs with every patch2009-09-27 14:27:00

Author:
Kern
Posts: 5078

At the end of the day, it's PR exercise. This video, despite being misleading, will actually help a lot of people... those people will be like "oh yeah MM they're great". Not everyone is as cynical as you and I.

Of course lol, but hey, I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to do it properly. Since when develloper tips are wrong? It's a new for me (not that I am studying all games as much as LBP mind you).

.		2009-09-27 20:17:00

Author:
RangerZero
Posts: 3901

Funny the power of the microscope around here... That video was about as informative as every other video Mm has ever released... the only thing I didn't know or believe was the 'circle theory' and as I suspected, was proven false. Why am I not surprised? More ammo for my 'professionalism' gun. I guess maybe finally we are all understanding how lucky Mm got now with Lbp. I'm not sure I could ever see another 'thing' (hit title) coming out of this group.2009-09-27 21:31:00

Author:
Gravel
Posts: 1308

huh? I'm so confused. I still don't understand what's wrong with the video.2009-09-27 21:49:00

Author:
hilightnotes
Posts: 1230

huh? I'm so confused. I still don't understand what's wrong with the video.

Some of the things it states don't translate over to Create Mode and thermometer behavior, i.e. it's wrong in parts.		2009-09-27 22:26:00

Author:
BSprague
Posts: 2325

very impressive i honestly didnt know that edge corner can impact the thermometer2009-09-28 02:36:00

Author:
hofry
Posts: 1

I wouldn't discredit the dark matter circle statement just yet. The problem here is that we do not know how the game engine works, but when you set up a test you are making assumptions anyway. And if those assumptions are incorrect, so are the results.

During my own tests on copying objects versus recreating them I initially didn't get the expected results, but that was because my test didn't "touch" the optimisation. My bad assumption here was that any copying is better than any recreating, but it turned out only copying a single object at a time is more efficient, and copying a group of objects at once is actually less efficient.

In the same manner, it is possible that ConfusedCartman simplified too much for the test to be valid. He has shown that individual dark matter circles are less efficient than triangles. But you can already see that the outcome for cardboard objects is different, because then movement physics calculation enters the picture. Perhaps if you use the dark matter circles to fixate a larger non-darkmatter complex structure, the statement does turn out to be valid.

Then again, maybe they just botched this. 		2009-09-28 12:27:00

Author:
Rogar
Posts: 2284

I wouldn't discredit the dark matter circle statement just yet. The problem here is that we do not know how the game engine works, but when you set up a test you are making assumptions anyway. And if those assumptions are incorrect, so are the results.

During my own tests on copying objects versus recreating them I initially didn't get the expected results, but that was because my test didn't "touch" the optimisation. My bad assumption here was that any copying is better than any recreating, but it turned out only copying a single object at a time is more efficient, and copying a group of objects at once is actually less efficient.

In the same manner, it is possible that ConfusedCartman simplified too much for the test to be valid. He has shown that individual dark matter circles are less efficient than triangles. But you can already see that the outcome for cardboard objects is different, because then movement physics calculation enters the picture. Perhaps if you use the dark matter circles to fixate a larger non-darkmatter complex structure, the statement does turn out to be valid.

Then again, maybe they just botched this.

The cardboard numbers actually are making sense for me (in CC's results). Most engine produces rectangle and triangle polys. EVERYTHING can be made of those. Now, this might explain why a rectangle and triangle takes the same memory. (It is the simplest polygon produced by the engine.)
And then the circle takes more memory because in fact each circles are a bunch of triangle polygons.

.		2009-09-29 17:46:00

Author:
RangerZero
Posts: 3901

The cardboard numbers actually are making sense for me (in CC's results). Most engine produces rectangle and triangle polys. EVERYTHING can be made of those. Now, this might explain why a rectangle and triangle takes the same memory. (It is the simplest polygon produced by the engine.)
And then the circle takes more memory because in fact each circles are a bunch of triangle polygons.

.

For the test to be valid, we would need to do it with all the carved shapes including the sackboy, if Media molecule are indeed wrong then we could send them a polite email with our findings,		2009-09-30 08:30:00

Author:
Kern
Posts: 5078


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