Archive: 26 posts

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A farmer has a fox, goose and a bag of grain, and one boat to cross a stream, which is only big enough to take one of the three across with him at a time. If left alone together, the fox would eat the goose and the goose would eat the grain. How can the farmer get all three across the stream? I had a shot at translating this old riddle into an LBP puzzle last night. Spent hours on the blasted thing, building a boat, a river, and three items to transport. Building the parts was easy enough, but then the logic involved in setting this up seemed, to me at least, to be a complete nightmare and I could feel my brain cells fizzling out as my palms grew ever clamier around the joypad. One frustrated Ungreth and a hundred mag switches later I gave up. So today I was thinking, perhaps the folk here at LBPC would like to take on the challenge. What is the simplest, most thermo efficient solution you can devise to set this scenario up, bearing in mind it must be failsafe, with all variables accounted for, and with a reset feature if things go wrong? (BTW, if you can't actually solve the riddle itself then bow your head and walk away in shame right now )

2009-09-14 14:40:00 Author: Ungreth Posts: 2130

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Sounds like a cool idea, couldn't be too hard if it wasn't failsafe Oh and by the way, i do know how to solve this riddle hurray!

2009-09-14 14:53:00 Author: Kn0cked-0ut Posts: 562

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hmm... A sensor switch to keep a grid of keys in the field of play, that keep the three from emitting a key that dissolves or destroys the weaker while player is present... you would also need a similar arrangement to be constant while two "safe" combinations are in certain fields of play even if the player is not present, but this woud have to be overwritten if the 3rd variable was present. Count out the combinations... should be 4 to to the 4th power, counting the player itself. Multiplayer is going to be your biggest problem, but require all for your sensor switches might help that. I wish I could draw this out on MSpaint or make it real quick because I know it's not too tough and would just need alot of trial and error. I used alot of stuff like this in my last level, but just not in so many combinations.

2009-09-14 15:01:00 Author: Unknown User

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At each side of the river have: [(fox && goose) || (goose && grain) ] && !player => munch(side) Then: munch(left) || munch(right) => FAIL. Have the player sensor cover a good half of the river, so you aren't going to be just outside of range when you get in the boat. Have a require all on the motion of the boat and have a checkpoint on the boat to prevent popping to cross sides of the river. Reset would need to do some funkiness with the checkpoints to bring you back to the starting side.

2009-09-14 15:12:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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NinjaMicWZ...interesting thoughts there. It was actually accounting for the third variable that gave me such a headache. I guess this sort of thing might be better worked out on MSpaint than by trial and error in create mode. At each side of the river have: [(fox && goose) || (goose && grain) ] && !player => munch(side) Then: munch(left) || munch(right) => FAIL. Have the player sensor cover a good half of the river, so you aren't going to be just outside of range when you get in the boat. Have a require all on the motion of the boat and have a checkpoint on the boat to prevent popping to cross sides of the river. Reset would need to do some funkiness with the checkpoints to bring you back to the starting side. Huh? You've lost me there. What do all the [(s, &&!s and =>s mean?

2009-09-14 15:24:00 Author: Ungreth Posts: 2130

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Ah, yeah. && = AND || = OR ! = NOT => points to output. Brackets indicate order. It's only the failure condition I have actually considered above btw. The pass condition and the boat movement with only one object still needs doing, but they aren't too bad. I'll knock them out in a bit.

2009-09-14 15:32:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Ah, yeah. && = AND || = OR ! = NOT => points to output. Brackets indicate order. It's only the failure condition I have actually considered above btw. The pass condition and the boat movement with only one object still needs doing, but they aren't too bad. I'll knock them out in a bit. Ah, right...now it makes more sense. So, I'm curious. Are those symbols from maths, computer programming language, something you made up or what? Do you normally apply those kind of equations to everything complex that you create? I just wish I'd done more of that kinda stuff in school, because I reckon it would have been really useful now that I regularly need to work out how to configure my logic tools.

2009-09-14 16:49:00 Author: Ungreth Posts: 2130

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&& || and ! come from C (the programming language). I'm using those because they are the easiest notation to type with. On paper I tend to use a horrible mixture of notations. Anything beyond a couple of AND gates generally gets written down so I can work out simplifications etc. Plus my head is capable of holding a suprising small amount of information at once These are the various inputs to the system I'd use, where the suffixes L, R and B indicate if the item in question is on the left bank, right bank or in the boat: foxL, foxR, foxB, gooseL, gooseR, gooseB, grainL, grainR, grainB, playerL, playerR, playerB playerB is going to want to be a require all. completion condition: (foxR && gooseR && grainR) boat can move if playerB && [ !(gooseB && foxB) || !(gooseB && grainB) || !(foxB && grainB) ] i.e no two objects allowed at the same time (implies max 1) and must have all players in the boat. Probably add a grab switch too. Failure is: (foxL && gooseL && !playerL) || (gooseL && grainL && !playerL) || (foxR && gooseR && !playerR) || (gooseR && grainR && !playerR) That is literally detection of the rules of the game - anything else (like stuff actually getting munched), will have to be added on.

2009-09-14 17:24:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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I could have swore i saw a level like this already in LittleXims hearted list... But it sounds like they've got the right logic if you're looking to make it.

2009-09-14 17:30:00 Author: Burnvictim42 Posts: 3322

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Lol, I was thinking the exact same thing today. Ill give it a go Edit, just searched on LBP and theres a level already, chicken instead of goose

2009-09-14 19:26:00 Author: Dhawken Posts: 96

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Who farms foxes anyway? That's what I wanna know. .

2009-09-14 20:30:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Lol, I was thinking the exact same thing today. Ill give it a go Edit, just searched on LBP and theres a level already, chicken instead of goose Really? Gadammit, it's hard to produce a truly original concept with LBP. Whatever you can think to build, there's most likely somebody who's done it already. So, what's the level called? It would be interesting to see how he implemented things.

2009-09-14 21:11:00 Author: Ungreth Posts: 2130

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i just searched for "chicken grain" and theres only 1 has the words fox chicken and grain in it, The icon has pictures of all 3 and they are cartoony. Yea I know what you mean about trying to be original!

2009-09-14 21:55:00 Author: Dhawken Posts: 96

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Yea - I played one like this online too. It's got a leprechaun a pot of gold and a dragon or something like that in it but it's the same idea. Good idea for a level though and I'd love to see your visuals as the one I played had zero eye candy appeal for me.

2009-09-14 22:17:00 Author: Morgana25 Posts: 5983

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There is a similar level by werehare. I think it was called Missionaries and Cannibals. Or something like that; I played month ago so can't remember.

2009-09-14 22:21:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193

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it's hard to produce a truly original concept with LBP. In what way would this have been original?

2009-09-14 22:22:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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^ I thought the translation of the concept to an LBP environment would have been original rather than the concept itself, since the concept is ancient. However, the translation's not original either is it? Because someone's already done it. Might as well just forget it, I guess. I'm starting to feel quite disillusioned looking for inspiration in popular culture only to find that someone else has got there first, so I've decided that my current WIP will be 100% the product of my own imagination and should be truly unique. That is assuming of course that one of those trespassing little turds who lurk around in quick play haven't already harvested all my ideas. MM gotta do something about that...20 minutes after newly publishing a locked level and 4 plays already?! Do these people think it's okay to break into an artists workshop and take a peak at his unfinished canvas?!

2009-09-15 08:27:00 Author: Ungreth Posts: 2130

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Do these people think it's okay to break into an artists workshop and take a peak at his unfinished canvas?! I know it would be sort of a pain but you could always encase the start gate in dark matter so they can't get out in play mode but you can in create mode

2009-09-15 22:49:00 Author: Morgana25 Posts: 5983

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I know it would be sort of a pain but you could always encase the start gate in dark matter so they can't get out in play mode but you can in create mode With that alternative, what is the point in publishing at all?

2009-09-15 23:09:00 Author: BSprague Posts: 2325

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With that alternative, what is the point in publishing at all? Well you'd change it for the final publish Or am I missing the joke?

2009-09-15 23:14:00 Author: Morgana25 Posts: 5983

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Well you'd change it for the final publish Or am I missing the joke? It's not a joke, my question is why publish it if you are going to block the entrance so people don't play it. Why not just create and play it on your moon. Blocking the entrance would stop everyone from playing it, Quick Play or not. So if you don't want anyone playing it, why would you publish it? I'm just trying to find out what your guys ulterior motives are.

2009-09-15 23:21:00 Author: BSprague Posts: 2325

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^ I thought the translation of the concept to an LBP environment would have been original rather than the concept itself, since the concept is ancient. However, the translation's not original either is it? Because someone's already done it. Might as well just forget it, I guess. As you say, it's your translation into LBP that matters. Just because someone has done something in LBP doesn't mean you shouldn't have your take on it.

2009-09-15 23:24:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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oh - now I undersrtand the miscommunication. In order to protect the level from corruption on your moon - which happens or if you should loose your data on the HD (like Zwollie) you can publish your working levels locked on the network and get them back later if needed. The downside (and it's small) is if you publish your level locked there's a small chance but a chance that someone choosing the quickplay option can get into the level before the system realizes it's locked. So if you publish locked with the start portal totally blocked in by dark matter other players can't see what your working on. Make more sense now?

2009-09-15 23:27:00 Author: Morgana25 Posts: 5983

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oh - now I undersrtand the miscommunication. In order to protect the level from corruption on your moon - which happens or if you should loose your data on the HD (like Zwollie) you can publish your working levels locked on the network and get them back later if needed. The downside (and it's small) is if you publish your level locked there's a small chance but a chance that someone choosing the quickplay option can get into the level before the system realizes it's locked. So if you publish locked with the start portal totally blocked in by dark matter other players can't see what your working on. Make more sense now? I do understand the whole issue of Quick Plays accessing locked levels, though I didn't realize that this particular locked level was to act as a backup in case of corruption on the moon. I backup my data to a USB drive, that's just my personal preference. And just so I'm not completely derailing this topic: I had an idea like this a while back, and I implemented it with three balls of dissolve, and the same premise. Taking them over in the wrong order would result in one of them disappearing because of the reasons previously mentioned, ex fox eats goose, goose eats grain, etc. I have the level I believe, hiding somewhere in my Pop-It as a captured object.

2009-09-15 23:31:00 Author: BSprague Posts: 2325

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B Sprague, my level is indeed locked because it's a work in progress backed up for protection. And my hat off to you for succeeding where I failed. Morgana25, I can't encase the checkpoint in dark matter since sackboy enters the level through a portal that is destroyed by a fast retrcting piston seconds later. I have tried using dark matter blockers on a different level though, one that's temporarily on the shelf, and it worked a treat. I've even filled the screen with a large "under construction" sign on the front layer. rtm223, I see your point...but everything's ruined now so I'm spitting my dummy and moving on to other ideas. I'm still interested to hear your final thoughts on how you would most efficiently translate the riddle using LBP logic. And to know how BSprague approached it too.

2009-09-16 01:49:00 Author: Ungreth Posts: 2130

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rtm223, I see your point...but everything's ruined now so I'm spitting my dummy and moving on to other ideas. I'm still interested to hear your final thoughts on how you would most efficiently translate the riddle using LBP logic. And to know how BSprague approached it too. I'll go on tomorrow (I'm very busy today) and see if I still have it, and if it is unaffected by the Capture Bug. If all is well, I'll put it in my Key Room and post the combination. EDIT: I found my mechanism, the entire thing takes up about half a bar of thermometer, but it's probably less when actually implemented. The only issue with it, and it's a pretty big issue, is that it isn't resettable. I don't know if you can work around that. If not, hopefully it's simplicity will give you some type of revelation on how to do it better and make it resettable. If you still need it, just ask me and I'll drop it into the Key Room.

2009-09-16 01:56:00 Author: BSprague Posts: 2325

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