Archive: 15 posts

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My current project (semi on hold tbh), is a puzzle level. I keeping details largely to myself right now (ooooh it's a secret) but I have developed a couple of interlinked puzzle mechanics that (I think) are pretty original and have quite a lot of scope for some rather taxing problems. The idea is to introduce each of the mechanics in simple 1-2 step puzzles and then start mixing it up. There will be no hints! At the moment I have two questions / ideas, that I'd like some feedback on: Today, I thought up a new puzzle, which I really like, but then I noticed that with 2 players, an alternative solution becomes available, and it becomes easier (less steps involved). I was trying to avoid 2 player "back-doors" to the puzzles, but then it occured to me: All I want to achieve is to create fair puzzles that make you think. The co-ordination is a challenge in itself, so maybe the 2 player variant of the solution is just as valid? Failure safety may be an issue. I'm currently thinking that failure safety could be achieved using the concept of player grabs a reset button at the checkpoint preceding the puzzle, if they manage to break it. If need be they can always pop themselves to get back there.

2009-09-09 13:14:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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I swear I'm not following you around... I like the idea of gameplay being different with two players. You said it becomes easier, but how much easier? If there were two different "versions" of each puzzle, then it would provide incentive to play it both ways. Also, the idea of the grab respawn sounds nice. You've got to make sure that they can't manage to get two things somehow, but I'm sure you'll work it out. Rather than popping yourself, I'd like to see a clever way of killing the player if they destroy the thing. It might involved your PTD... I dunno. You could just gas the whole place and call it a day .

2009-09-09 13:28:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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As comphermc has leaked, the puzzles may well involve moving cubes around, but I assure you it is slightly more original than that. Well typically the co-op version would remove some of the backtracking by tactically positioning yourself while your mate does something else - it's not too much easier probably, once you take into account the communication involved. There may however be an issue that the puzzle in question doesn't work in 1 player now I look at it! But as a general concept I think it's still valid. You do pretty much have to choose to break the level, or be very clumsy to break an object, so it's not really failure safety, more if you get lost in a puzzle and want a clean slate, so to speak. I did consider gassing the whole room with funky lights if you break something (power surgeplosion), but I have a feeling I will run out of magnetic key switch colours... (will need 6 minimum just for that reset, possibly 9)

2009-09-09 13:41:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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My bad about the leakage. Edited out. How complex is the reset? Edit: about the whole "two ways to solve the level" thing. That would be an amazing game mechanic to have in the level. Granted, it might be hard to come up with ideas after a while, but just imagine: you go into a level and you are told that each puzzle has two solutions. Wouldn't you be enticed to play it another time to try and find the other solutions? For me, that would be awesome.

2009-09-09 14:42:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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Nah it's cool, don't worry about it. detect damage to any one of 6 objects in the same working area - that gives six colours at least... and it may be more complex than that, as it might be acceptable to take objects out of their working area to other areas, for bonus points. Of course if I can get object to detect themselves breaking, to emit a key that triggers the reset, that would be a different story. Why can't I make things simple? I'm gonna make a simple level one day, with like sponges to swing on and maybe a zipline... Edit: about the whole "two ways to solve the level" thing. That would be an amazing game mechanic to have in the level. Granted, it might be hard to come up with ideas after a while, but just imagine: you go into a level and you are told that each puzzle has two solutions. Wouldn't you be enticed to play it another time to try and find the other solutions? For me, that would be awesome. You played gothic reverie 2 right?

2009-09-09 14:51:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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I'm working on a Pythagoras theorum based puzzle, similar to the bed buzzle in Gothic Reverie 2 but much more complex. It's a nightmare to say the least. The puzzle involves slotting moveable shapes together in the right way to make a larger shape, but the objects often break when inserted into a space that's too tight. A reset would be a useful feature here. rtm223...I've already used your patented "de-mitter" technique to good effect with a set-piece which I built the other night. (Your tracker system is proving very handy too BTW) Couldn't demitters be used to resolve your current dilemma? Oh, and thanks for the subtle plug just there

2009-09-09 15:20:00 Author: Ungreth Posts: 2130

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A variant of demitters would be used, but it's the emitted objects that need to detect when they are broken and they need to signal back to the main control logic that they are gone, which either means the room detecting a lack of a particular object (hence 6 key colours min), OR the object detecting when part of it has been crushed and emitting a key to indicate that event (making sure it's emitted to a layer where it can't possibly be blocked. Each comes with it's own awkwardness tbh... and I definately want a manual reset as well.

2009-09-09 15:37:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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You played gothic reverie 2 right? No. I meant to, but kept forgetting and never got around to it. Now that you've reminded me, it's going back on my 'to-play' list. I'll give you some feedback Ungreth. Is it necessary to have all 6 objects in a room at one time? I can see it being a nightmare with more than 3 in the room at once (one for each plane). In that sense, you could use only 3 keys. ----------------- A solution for objects recognizing themselves as broken: make each object have a thin layer behind it. Make a key/switch pairing, one on each layer. You would have to have the object emitter in two parts: the object itself and the logic. For the logic, it would have to be a block of something that falls a short distance so that it does not block the emit zone. This block would have en emitter which emits a block with a colored key on it. When the two halves of the object get separated (i.e. the thick layer is destroyed), it will trigger the logic block with the emitter on it, which triggers a switch to emit a new object. Man, that was confusing. It makes sense in my head.

2009-09-09 16:35:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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Rather than being overly cryptic, I'll explain that the puzzles involve up to three colour-coded crystals, each of which can (amongst other things) be used to spawn a color coded cube. 3 crystals means 3 cubes. As yet I haven't sussed out a puzzle that requires 3 cubes (seriously, it's really hurting my head devising these ), but several require 3 crystals and 2 cubes, and I can't stop the player from spawning the third cube if they want. With regards to the planes... all three crystals live on the front plane and all three cubes live of the middle plane (for aesthetic reasons they also occupy the thin plane in front of them as well). I might be able to make it so that if you kill your crystal then it's auto reset, but if you kill your cube, you're gonna have to go back and spawn a new one or pop yourself and manual reset. This actually makes a lot of sense, now I think about it. It's awkward, because the crystal is in two parts and I need to detect if either part gets broken, but it's doable.

2009-09-09 16:55:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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How are all these occupying the same space without becoming a cluster-f___? Lol. Are the crystals short enough that you can pull one crystal over top of another one? This puzzle idea intrigues me. It sorta reminds me of Yarbone's puzzle level [whatever it's called], but taken to the next level.

2009-09-09 17:57:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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I'll just say it's all been accounted for In honesty the only thing holding me back right now is the aesthetics of the components, once I get that nailed I can copy and paste till it's done. I'm probably gonna get some of my planed puzzles made over the weekend, regardless of aesthetics though... It's similar style to a lot of puzzles - moving mag keys to mag switches and manipulating blocks that you can stand on, but way more subtle.

2009-09-09 18:18:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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I'm more than willing to test out an early version for you! I love puzzle levels.

2009-09-09 18:24:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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I'm just gonna leave you hanging there I think

2009-09-10 10:17:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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How cruel.

2009-09-10 13:57:00 Author: Kefkaas Posts: 86

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Voltiare's level "H.A.T.E." has the same 2 player shortcut and cheats on a few puzzles... usually if I was playing with someone who hadn't played it before, I would never let them realize how to cheat but other than that I just thought of it as an interesting exploit. The level was race based, so one player scores would be a true indiciation of mastery, and multiplayer scores would show not only mastery of the design for both players, but of the exploits in the design, and that the teams at the top were cooperative and coordinated. So it might not be a bad thing... If this is a thing where suicide can be a recourse... look at Sackboy's Inferno eps 2 & 3... especially 3 as it has some very blatant ways to break the design on multiplayer and force a reset. It'll show you some things of what not to do, or what might not be possible.

2009-09-14 14:41:00 Author: Unknown User

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