Archive: 40 posts

---

Wither it be media, games, novels, or art, there always seems to be a specific audience they are targeting. For Example: A First Person Shooter would be targeting an audience that like fast phased action where as an Adventure game will target audiences people that like riddles and puzzles. (These are just generalized examples) But would targeting an audience make your levels successful in LBP? Or is it better to try and please every player that plays the level?

2009-09-08 04:56:00 Author: snowyjoe Posts: 509

---

if by successful you mean high play and heart counts, then yes it's better to appeal to everyone. most important is to make sure that everyone can complete it. just like the real games industry, you won't get mainstream acceptance with a niche title. you might get a whole load of plays, but you won't get 80,000 or whatever.

2009-09-08 09:42:00 Author: Matt 82 Posts: 1096

---

How many levels do get 80,000 plays though? Especially when you discount survival challenges. I don't think enough people really do attempt to target niche audiences - and I don't mean that as a critisism, I mean as a player, I'd like to see more people targetting the niche. A niche appeal level is not constrained by what the mainstream might think of it so that gives the creator more freedom to do whatever they want, and IMO this gives more scope for originality (although there are plenty of totally original mainstream levels) As for whether you can be successful... depends on your idea of success. I'm currently sitting on ~1100 plays ~120 hearts and 4 stars with a niche level, which I think is absolutely fantastic and way better than I was expecting. It's probably harder than making a mainstream level, you may need a launch strategy, and you may well want to keep yourself off cool pages as much as possible, but it is possible. I tihnk it always comes down to creating what you want to create, do it as well as you can, and say **** the mainstream if they don't like it, there are plenty of other levels out there for them

2009-09-08 10:13:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

---

I don't think enough people really do attempt to target niche audiences - and I don't mean that as a critisism, I mean as a player, I'd like to see more people targetting the niche. I tihnk it always comes down to creating what you want to create, do it as well as you can, and say **** the mainstream if they don't like it, there are plenty of other levels out there for them I agree with all the above. But whenever a so-called original level is published, it's 'niche' status can be taken away very quickly when the copies and tributes start. Whether the target audience was specific or not, things that become popular tend to create a surge in similar ideas. Bomb survivals, kill your best friends, levels that play themselves, film tributes etc. - all these may have started as niche because of their initial originality. Unfortunately, as more are produced (with vast quality differences) the genre becomes stale. Good thread though - it'll be interesting to see what people think.

2009-09-08 10:54:00 Author: MrsSpookyBuz Posts: 1492

---

I've mentioned in a few posts to keep in mind general target audience for your level, because not everyone is going to like it, so you might as well cater to a specific group. Having a target group, naming your level appropriately to catch the attention of that group, and finally, designing a level that the group will like, will set your level up for more success than just a generally good level. For example, you can make a hard-hitting platforming level, visual display, puzzle level, tech showcase, etc. You really just have to sell it. Give it an eye-catching icon. If I'm looking for a visual masterpiece, try to capture the breadth of it and put it on an icon to pull me in. Target audience certainly matters to some degree in LittleBigPlanet.

2009-09-08 10:57:00 Author: BSprague Posts: 2325

---

Bomb survivals, kill your best friends, levels that play themselves, film tributes etc. - all these may have started as niche because of their initial originality. Unfortunately, as more are produced (with vast quality differences) the genre becomes stale. Correct me if I'm wrong, but even though there are countless counterparts for these levels, havn't they started targeting an niche audience now? These Bomb survival levels, levels that play themselves, still seem to be popping up because there are fans of those that love to play and make them. They probably were not a niche level to start off with, but they actually might be now. I believe that the majority could be bored of them, but the fans will still keep these levels going.

2009-09-08 11:06:00 Author: snowyjoe Posts: 509

---

How many levels do get 80,000 plays though? Especially when you discount survival challenges. 80,000 was just the number that popped into my head. Just pointing out that you wouldn't get a hugely 'successful' level with a level aimed at a particular demographic. Unless that demographic is 14 year olds, I suppose. @ MrsSpookyBuzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, I suppose it depends on what you'd consider a niche level, but I wouldn't count bomb survival or levels that play themselves etc as niche. Even when they were brand new. For me a niche level is one that only certain people are going to appreciate or enjoy. Certainly both of those levels were built squarely with the majority in mind.

2009-09-08 11:09:00 Author: Matt 82 Posts: 1096

---

I've mentioned in a few posts to keep in mind general target audience for your level, because not everyone is going to like it, so you might as well cater to a specific group. Having a target group, naming your level appropriately to catch the attention of that group, and finally, designing a level that the group will like, will set your level up for more success than just a generally good level. For example, you can make a hard-hitting platforming level, visual display, puzzle level, tech showcase, etc. You really just have to sell it. Give it an eye-catching icon. If I'm looking for a visual masterpiece, try to capture the breadth of it and put it on an icon to pull me in. Target audience certainly matters to some degree in LittleBigPlanet. I'd say complementary to this it's also good, at least rating-wise, to try and turn away people outside the target group. If you have a difficult level for hard code platform players, and the presentation of your level as seen from the pod appeals to everyone, everyone will try the level, and some will rate it lower because it was not intended for them.

2009-09-08 11:21:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

---

Yeah I figured that was a number plucked out of the air, but it does beg the question, what is "successful" (it's not quite offtopic as it pertains to snowyjoe's question). Do we (and should we) assess the success of a niche level differently to a mainstream level? I think I do, simply because I know what normally happens to the niche and so even moderate success seems more significant. Also, I don't consider those examples to be niche. Before or after the copying frenzy. They were original to begin with but I don't think that they had a particular demographic in mind, as Matt said, and I don't think it qualifies as niche appeal just because many people are bored of them - that's just a boom and bust cycle of something very much mainstream. Genuine niche probably would never see enough of a boom to end up this way. Or could it? And yes, marketing to the target audience is very much important here. A brutally hard platformer with fiendish puzzles should not be titled something that sounds fun for the kiddies, for example! Your title, description, and icon should attract you niche and push away the mainstream. Actually, a lot of the standard things to "get your level noticed by everyone" should be thrown out of the window if you are chasing the niche...

2009-09-08 11:24:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

---

I wonder if the 18 GOTY creators were told to keep things mainstream with their levels so that new players would not be put off in some way? If not, did they feel a need or desire to so this themselves?

2009-09-08 12:03:00 Author: Matt 82 Posts: 1096

---

The only way to get many plays is republishing it a thousand times a day or build a very survival challenge. It doesn't matter whether you aim for an audience or not, if its on the cool level pages it will get many plays no matter how good or bad it is, because people just play what they see first. So in this sense the target audience is completely irrelevant. I'm sorry, but that's how I see it. Regarding the target audience for my levels. I am the target audience, I build what I like and I don't care whether a 10 people will like it or a million. I build for me, not for anyone else. If I didn't do that I wouldn't enjoy building levels.

2009-09-08 12:13:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193

---

I wonder if the 18 GOTY creators were told to keep things mainstream with their levels so that new players would not be put off in some way? If not, did they feel a need or desire to so this themselves? No, but we were advised to keep the levels similar to what we'd already made, because obviously our previous levels were why they picked us. So I decided to make a survival challenge like the Spiralizer, because that was my most well known. And not until we'd almost finished making the levels did they even tell us that they'd be used in the GOTY edition, so we didn't really even know that these would be targeted towards new players.

2009-09-08 12:16:00 Author: Nuclearfish Posts: 927

---

The only way to get many plays is republishing it a thousand times a day or build a very survival challenge. It doesn't matter whether you aim for an audience or not, if its on the cool level pages it will get many plays no matter how good or bad it is, because people just play what they see first. So in this sense the target audience is completely irrelevant. I'm sorry, but that's how I see it. The point of picking a target audience is that you can target people that don't just play what they see first. You don't get as many plays, but your rating will probably be higher.

2009-09-08 12:22:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

---

No, but we were advised to keep the levels similar to what we'd already made, because obviously our previous levels were why they picked us. So I decided to make a survival challenge like the Spiralizer, because that was my most well known. And not until we'd almost finished making the levels did they even tell us that they'd be used in the GOTY edition, so we didn't really even know that these would be targeted towards new players. Ah cool man. Cheers for the info. Wonder if anything would've been said if you'd all decided to go crazy and make a level that only the elite of the elite could get anywhere with.

2009-09-08 12:26:00 Author: Matt 82 Posts: 1096

---

You won't even get high number of plays by spamming the republish if you only have niche appeal. Publish => page 1 => completely untargetted plays => mainstream players give you 1 star => low average rating => no more plays. Niche levels do not want to be near the top of cool pages.

2009-09-08 12:29:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

---

Publish => page 1 => completely untargetted plays => mainstream players give you 1 star => low average rating => no more plays. Niche levels do not want to be near the top of cool pages. Couldn't agree more. I wouldn't describe my levels as 'niche' (although actually maybe they are, because they're survival challenges without bombs, which seems quite a rare thing these days), but everytime one mine gets onto page 1 of Cool Pages, the rating goes down. Clockworx was 5 stars after about 2000 plays before it got there (now its gone down to 4), and Stickeristix used to be five but got to Page 2 then went down to 3 stars. And then nobody played it.

2009-09-08 12:38:00 Author: Nuclearfish Posts: 927

---

So what are we classifying as a 'niche' level here? One that's above the norm in terms of difficulty?

2009-09-08 13:07:00 Author: julesyjules Posts: 1156

---

Niche level: A level that doesn't get many plays? "Hey, your level has **** all plays!" "Yeah, it's niche!"

2009-09-08 13:12:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193

---

Yah, my target audience is people that enjoy playing rubbish levels! That's niche.... Oh crap, that's the mainstream audience in LBP, it's not niche at all Well a hardcore platformer would count, as would anything with proper puzzles (you know, ones that are actually puzzling), heavilly text-based and non-linear/free-roaming levels aren't generally in favour with the mainstream along with many other styles of level as well.

2009-09-08 13:41:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

---

I would keep it real simple you know. If you feel like making X type of level, it means you have an audience. Believe me. If you want to play what you create and like it, other people will. You should simply express yourself and create different genres of level. It can only make the community better. .

2009-09-08 18:10:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

---

I wonder if the 18 GOTY creators were told to keep things mainstream with their levels so that new players would not be put off in some way? If not, did they feel a need or desire to so this themselves? As Nuclearfish said, we weren't told to keep things mainstream. I think that was on purpose. I made a point of asking what skill level it should be geared towards, and I tailored the difficulty to that. I definitely think that one should consider the players of their level if they want it to succeed. But what is your measure of success? Mine is that I like it, and that it succeeds in being fun to play. I did feel like I should probably make things more mainstream because of the wider audience intended to play it. But at the same time, I don't think that I watered it down to make that happen. What I did was make it entirely possible for the mainstream player to complete the level without becoming frustrated, but unless you explore it you won't get the full experience. This does contrast with Metal Revolution, where more thought is necessary just to complete the level. As of yesterday it was at 3 stars and less than 1000 plays. I still think it was a success, because all I wanted was to make something fun.

2009-09-08 18:12:00 Author: Risen Posts: 251

---

As Nuclearfish said, we weren't told to keep things mainstream. I think that was on purpose. I made a point of asking what skill level it should be geared towards, and I tailored the difficulty to that. I definitely think that one should consider the players of their level if they want it to succeed. But what is your measure of success? Mine is that I like it, and that it succeeds in being fun to play. I did feel like I should probably make things more mainstream because of the wider audience intended to play it. But at the same time, I don't think that I watered it down to make that happen. What I did was make it entirely possible for the mainstream player to complete the level without becoming frustrated, but unless you explore it you won't get the full experience. This does contrast with Metal Revolution, where more thought is necessary just to complete the level. As of yesterday it was at 3 stars and less than 1000 plays. I still think it was a success, because all I wanted was to make something fun. I think 50 of those plays were mine.... But I still hold the high score on that one! So... what classifies as niche? I've been pretty much able to tell from the beginning where my levels fall in terms of "mainstream". However, it hasn't really affected the types of levels I design - just what I expect out of them. I pretty much designed Splat Invaders Saga and Tiger Woods Mini Golf for everyone. But Splat Invaders II, Vertigo, Destiny, Starship Troopers - these were all designed with more hardcore players in mind, and I purposely tried to keep them off of the top of cool pages. My personal favorite levels are ones that give me a challenge and force me to think. I don't WANT big arrows pointing me exactly where I need to go, and I don't want infinite checkpoints every 10 steps removing the feeling of peril. Here's what I think a niche level is in LitteBigPlanet (any one of these): - Longer than 10 minutes to complete - Things aren't necessarily spelled out for you - you have to puzzle solve - Non-linear - Requires practice and possibly more than 1 play. The fact is, many who play LittleBigPlanet are kids - and many times they will rate based on how they "felt" about the experience instead of the "quality" of the level.

2009-09-08 18:26:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

---

I can see that a few posts here are kind of looking down upon mainstream levels, whether meant or not I'm not sure. From a creating point of few I love to make levels that can appeal to everyone. As a creator you can often make things that work quite well and that's where it then ends, you stick it in your level and it's done. When I make something, I try to think, right, would everyone be able to do this? If the answers no, then I change it around and think up new ways to get it to work. That's good fun, it keeps me thinking and is a whole other side to creating. I know there's a big thing for 'create whatever you want', but sometimes that's just not enough. It's like always sticking to your strengths...eventually it gets boring. By targeting the mainstream it means I have to get my levels to work on lots of different bases and ensure that everyone knows what they're doing, yet still keep it fun and clever. I enjoy that much more than if I was just making a level that didn't have any of these 'boundaries'.

2009-09-08 18:45:00 Author: jackofcourse Posts: 1494

---

I can still that a few posts here are kind of looking down upon mainstream levels, whether meant or not I'm not sure. From a creating point of few I love to make levels that can appeal to everyone. I just read through the thread again and the only one that leans this way is me - but I have always had disdain for the mainstream playing community anyway, not those that create mainstream levels (big difference there). Although the attitude of "if I make this level that I want to make, I probably won't get enough plays/hearts/ratings, so I don't know if I should bother" is something I have absolutely no respect for I'm afraid - I am simply unable to. I certainly do see the challenge in making a mainstream level, but that doesn't appeal to me. What does appeal to me is the challenge of creating a level that everyone can complete without frustration and have good, clean, simple fun in, but will still genuinely challenge anyone who wants a challenge (without just adding a difficulty selector or "skip this part" dynamic). Now that would be really interesting. But this is very much offtopic.

2009-09-08 19:41:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

---

So what are we classifying as a 'niche' level here? One that's above the norm in terms of difficulty? I'd call a niche level as something that generally wouldn't appeal to the majority of players. "Above the norm in terms of difficulty" is one way a level could be niche. Others include very abstract levels, technical demos, complex puzzles, etc.

2009-09-08 20:42:00 Author: BSprague Posts: 2325

---

But is creating a niche level and targeting an audience different? Like trying to make a level that pleases everyone, or making a level that has a specific type of game-play?

2009-09-08 23:09:00 Author: snowyjoe Posts: 509

---

But is creating a niche level and targeting an audience different? They are different things, though their respective meanings will overlap in the sense we are speaking of. You can make a level that isn't niche at all, but just gear it to a group of specific people. For example, you can make a level that is just raw, pure platforming. It's targeted toward people who enjoy the platforming aspect of LittleBigPlanet, but the rest of the LittleBigPlanet population won't necessarily be hesitant to play it.

2009-09-08 23:15:00 Author: BSprague Posts: 2325

---

The bottom line is that you will be most satisfied if you build the level for yourself. Anyone else liking the level besides you is just an additional bonus. Collateral damage so to speak. In a positive way.

2009-09-08 23:22:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193

---

Joe, it's your thread, why don't you tell us IMO they are slightly different but very much overlap, as Bsprague said.

2009-09-08 23:23:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

---

Alright, friends. I'm gonna lay down some mad s*** on you right now. There are three audiences that I see in LBP today. 1: Trend-followers i.e. all of the ones who play the bomb survivals and "let's see how far you get" levels. 2: Retro gamers, i.e. people that play something that they already have experienced before for nostalgic purposes, or that which incorporate classic videogame elements. This audience is mostly consistent of Super Mario fans. 3: The originals. Essentially, everyone else. Most of you chaps are the originals. It's safe to say that groups 1 and 2 earn more plays than 3 in the big picture. Personally, I try to make some horrible hybrid of 1 and 3 in my levels. It's not going well.

2009-09-09 00:16:00 Author: SLS10 Posts: 1129

---

I can see that a few posts here are kind of looking down upon mainstream levels, whether meant or not I'm not sure. From a creating point of few I love to make levels that can appeal to everyone. As a creator you can often make things that work quite well and that's where it then ends, you stick it in your level and it's done. When I make something, I try to think, right, would everyone be able to do this? If the answers no, then I change it around and think up new ways to get it to work. That's good fun, it keeps me thinking and is a whole other side to creating. I know there's a big thing for 'create whatever you want', but sometimes that's just not enough. It's like always sticking to your strengths...eventually it gets boring. By targeting the mainstream it means I have to get my levels to work on lots of different bases and ensure that everyone knows what they're doing, yet still keep it fun and clever. I enjoy that much more than if I was just making a level that didn't have any of these 'boundaries'. I personally don't look down at all at mainstream levels at all - I've done a few of them, I enjoy playing them, and I can generally see how the masses enjoy them. I just prefer more adrenaline rush in my games generally, and making that kind of game is what I'm good at. I also figure between you, Wex, MrsSpookyBuz, Julesyjules, Geosautus, and many other talented creators the "mainstream" has already been covered, so I build levels for the "minority". I actually think the opposite when I make a level... I think "is this going to get that "OMG!!!" affect? Are they going to be a puddle of nerves after finishing? If not, I haven't done my job. But I certainly don't look down on other great creations because they're mainstream. Some of my favorite moments: Getting an "OMFG!!!!" comment on Vertigo! Getting an "I've played this game 50 times! I hate you!" from MrsSpookyBuz on Destiny!

2009-09-09 00:20:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

---

I personally don't look down at all at mainstream levels at all - I've done a few of them, I enjoy playing them, and I can generally see how the masses enjoy them. I just prefer more adrenaline rush in my games generally, and making that kind of game is what I'm good at. I also figure between you, Wex, MrsSpookyBuz, Julesyjules, Geosautus, and many other talented creators the "mainstream" has already been covered, so I build levels for the "minority". I actually think the opposite when I make a level... I think "is this going to get that "OMG!!!" affect? Are they going to be a puddle of nerves after finishing? If not, I haven't done my job. Yeah I understand what you mean. The challenge for me comes in still trying to retain that OMG effect...but in a way that it affects everyone who plays it. Which obviously is no simple feat, but that's why I like it! Adds a little more intrigue into creating other than just 'I'll create what I want/like and if others like it then that's a bonus'.

2009-09-09 00:43:00 Author: jackofcourse Posts: 1494

---

I think my stuff is more likely to entertain rather than challenge but it's not the result of my trying to 'target' anybody, its simply not as calculated as that. I just make it as best i can and then rely on people playtesting to tell me if there's anything rubbish.

2009-09-09 01:06:00 Author: julesyjules Posts: 1156

---

I think there is a place for building for a target audience in LBP, but I think you should just accept what comes along with it. If you build a suicide bomb level and I want a platform level, I will give you a one or two star rating because its not what I liked. In general I just build the level to be what I want to play and I want to see what the majority of the people have to say about it. I guess for me, the concept of building a level is more about capturing the spirit of LBP instead of creating a new idea. If I go out a build a silent hill, or bioshock level I know that people who love the game will love the level and people who hate the games will slam me. I guess a long post made short is that there is a place for it in LBP, but you have to accept what comes with it. I love the levels that are designed to my tastes and I heart the authors of those levels, but I don't think that will get them on the cool page every time.

2009-09-09 01:11:00 Author: pm317b Posts: 32

---

Can we make "The OMG Effect" a scientific LittleBigPlanet term? I think that The OMG Effect is what most creators strive for in their work. This natural occurrence ranges across all level types, regardless of target audience and is only found in the most original, creative and innovative of works. The OMG Effect is commonly observed in the comments section, but can be calculated by the heart to play ratio (excludes survival challenges and other levels that are normally played more than 1-5 times). The ability to amaze the audience can help to conquer the effects of segmentation, and effectively lower barriers between different "classes" of LittleBigPlanet players. Also pm317b, who actually plays suicide bomb levels and enjoys them? That's sick.

2009-09-09 01:11:00 Author: BSprague Posts: 2325

---

If you build a suicide bomb level and I want a platform level, I will give you a one or two star rating because its not what I liked. Now thats the right way to rate! I like cows. I only give out 5 stars to levels that have cows in them and if your level doesn't have one i will give it one star for being cow-less and making me sad. I might give you 2 stars if there is a milk bottle. If the cow explodes and makes me "OMG!!!!!!" i will heart you! So you're saying a bomb level 'Needs Work' because it's not a platform level?

2009-09-09 01:24:00 Author: julesyjules Posts: 1156

---

I think there is a place for building for a target audience in LBP, but I think you should just accept what comes along with it. If you build a suicide bomb level and I want a platform level, I will give you a one or two star rating because its not what I liked. That's EXACTLY how NOT to rate something. This is really irresponsable and selfish. The world doesn't revolve around you. There's creative freedom out there. The rules are the capacities of the creation mode and that's all. If you make a great platformer level and some people rate it 2 stars, completely dismissing your effort and how well crafted it is, would you like it? If you like racing games and not shooter, following your logic it would means gaming journalists should rate shooters bad. This obviously make no sense. If you listen to a rock, do you judge it as how good of an hip-hop song it is? You see that this all really make no sense. We have to rate things for what they are. You cannot rate ANYTHING properly disregarding genres. .

2009-09-09 02:38:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

---

Actually.... I wasn't referring to the "OMG!!!" you get when you see something truly amazing - I was thinking of the "OMG!!!" you get when a semi goes through a red light at 100 miles per hour and is heading straight for your car in the middle of an intersection. Thought I'd clarify. I'm not sure many other creators go for this.... I recently saw a video on YouTube with someone playing "Destiny!" - a player said below the video "I remember that! It was EPIC! But I was so nervous while playing I kept dying". I felt I accomplished my mission. You cannot rate ANYTHING properly disregarding genres. Yup... which is why we need genres.

2009-09-09 03:08:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

---

That's EXACTLY how NOT to rate something. What Rangerzero is saying is right... but sadly there are many people that rate levels like pm317b rates. That's probably why considering if your level is mainstream or not is important when trying to put your level on the cool pages. Actually.... I wasn't referring to the "OMG!!!" you get when you see something truly amazing I think everyone's OMG moment is different.... mine's when you see yourself corned in a room, a big spider is coming to eat you and all you have is a paintanator and 3 lives left. i should start a new thread on that... What was your OMG moment? Anyway... getting back on topic. Some guy said at Penny Arcade that Hardcore gaming is becoming more niche and that casual games will soon take over the gaming market. Scrolling shooters were a huge hit back in the day, but now... are just a dying genre. Would it also be the same in LBP? The Bomb Survival levels one day becoming rare, and hardcore platforming become more popular with the mainstream?

2009-09-09 11:32:00 Author: snowyjoe Posts: 509

---

Maybe.... I just think its important to have variety. I've approached creating in LBP as if I'm filling in a bunch of holes, trying to push new gaming styles. I think as long as you're creating something fun it will make LBP better. The GREAT thing about LittleBigPlanet is you can experiment with different ideas without a million dollar budget and see what people like. NinjaMicWZ managed a long, tough, puzzle-filled level with Free at Last and still managed quite a few plays and hearts - probably because he made it look so good at the same time that people who couldn't finish it still rated it well and put a heart on it. He had waited a long time for mainstream acceptance of one of his levels, but never really let the general audience control the types of levels he designed.

2009-09-09 13:46:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

Posts: 1077139    Threads: 69970    Members: 9661    Archive-Date: 2019-01-19

Aus dem Archiv wurden alle persönlichen Daten wie Name, Anschrift, Email etc. - aber auch sämtliche Inhalte wie z.B. persönliche Nachrichten - entfernt.
Die Nutzung dieser Webseite erfolgt ohne Speicherung personenbezogener Daten. Es werden keinerlei Cookies, Logs, 3rd-Party-Plugins etc. verwendet.