Archive: 20 posts

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How can I make my levels longer? I have tried and tried to make the levels I want to make but always seem to be restricted by space. Then I get on the community levels and see things like the Bioshock and Silent Hill levels. How is it possible to make something so large in the given space? If this has been posted before, I am sorry. I looked through about 40 some pages and couldn't find much relevant info.

2009-08-24 23:46:00 Author: pm317b Posts: 32

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Are you constricted by physical space or thermometer space?

2009-08-24 23:52:00 Author: BSprague Posts: 2325

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Thermometer

2009-08-25 00:02:00 Author: pm317b Posts: 32

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Backtracking! Just ask grantosUK. One way to maximize space/thermo is loop back through the same area 34 times. If you're limited strictly by the thermo, then it might help to know which of the thermos you are maxing out, as there are more one (although you only see the one that is the fullest). It's always a good rule of thumb to limit the number of materials used and the number of edges, as these are most commonly the ones that fill up the quickest. If you have edges that are very jaggedy, you may want to simplify them. Take a look at levels made by jackofcourse. He has mastered making levels look very detailed, while minimizing the number of edges used. Edit: as Cubbage says below me, befriend the corner editor tool. I was hesitant to use it at first, but now I can't imagine building without it. In fact, the level I'm working on now is built entirely with the corner editor tool. I place down a block of material and then shape it as desired. (I'm trying to force myself to build outside of the grid mode whenever possible).

2009-08-25 00:03:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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One big thing to keep in mind is proper management of thermo. I've mentioned this before (so if you've heard it already try not to yawn), but there are actually MANY thermos - and if you learn to manage them you can design pretty big levels. Here's some tips: Use the corner tool to create efficient edges instead of "drawing" edges. Using simple shapes will allow a much bigger level - but it can still look good. Check out the trees in Julesyjules "Degobah" level or MrSuperComputer's Basalisk Bog - they were able to design really nice trees and scenery using minimal edges. If an object doesn't need physics (for instance, it doesn't need to roll around and the such), make sure it's glued to dark matter or the base of the level. This will help you control the "Use less objects" thermo. Watch the message that appears when you're running low on thermo. This will always give you a clue as to how you can extend the size of the level. Different messages will appear for different thermos - just because you are running low on one thermo, doesn't mean you don't have quite a bit more in other thermos you can do in your level. For instance, you could use a bunch of different materials or decorations even if you're running low on edge thermo. Edit: Ah, Comphermc also gave some similar advice on the thermos before I was finished.... well, repetition for emphasis! .... you could do a "Portal" level.... white squares use minimal thermo!

2009-08-25 00:03:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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CCubbage and comphermc have the thermometer optimization techniques down for you. What will help you actually implement that information is just play some really great levels and take some pointers. Keep in mind that those very long, very detailed levels are most likely maxing out several of their thermometers. Look for how things are designed and if they have a "how it's made" level, be sure to check it out for other tips and optimization hints. Don't add anything unnecessary that isn't seen by the player, and optimize logic so you can have more room for detail and length.

2009-08-25 00:07:00 Author: BSprague Posts: 2325

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Welcome to the forums... Maxing out multiple thermos is definately the way forward. If you have a lot of moving obstacles then you will nail your moving objects thermo. Consider adding in some static platforming, all glued down to dark matter. Stickers and decorations are another wonderful way of reducing the thermo dedicated to object complexity. Finetune the actual outlines of the objects using the corner tool and then add detail using stickers. Stickers don't affect the physics of the object so affect different aspects of the thermo. Also lighting is a great help. Mainuplating you lighting can give really nice visuals, even though the objects are quite simple, then use some of that object complexity elsewhere in the level. Ummm, what else... Layers: objects spread across three layers take up slightly more thermo, so only use the layers that you need - this is good for gameplay as well IMO. BTW, the bioshock and Silent hill levels I have seen are probably only medium length, there is plenty more thermo to be had if you get your head around it. And if you stick around here you'll learn loads of tips towards all aspects of your creating

2009-08-25 00:15:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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The corner editor seems to have helped me make massive levels. I love that tool! ^_^

2009-08-25 00:16:00 Author: xkappax Posts: 2569

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wow. I have spent all day looking for an answer and you guys have pretty much helped more in ten minutes than I spent all day looking. Thanks.

2009-08-25 00:18:00 Author: pm317b Posts: 32

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That's how it goes around these parts. Feel free to stop by more often with your inquiries. It's a great little place we've got here.

2009-08-25 00:27:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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Here are the main things I can think of.... 1. Sponge is your friend, its the one material that softens any sharp corners so you can get good looking scenery without too many edges. Also if you're looking for things to grab from/swing from and you want a circular shape, use unseamed sponge and the octagon, it looks pretty much the same as a circle but a 3rd of the edges. 2. Whenever you introduce a new material or object into the level for the first time, see how much the thermo jumps up, they vary quite a lot. Some of the metals/stones with a lot of detail are particularly high. Try and stick to five or six main materials, and when it comes to using a new one and it adds big a chunk of thermo, just use something else (unless you love the way it looks). Same goes for story objects, some of them are ridiculously thermo unfriendly. 3. Emitters can be a killer once you've got 10-20 on the go. Use the settings to make them as efficient as possible, no point having the emitter set up to emit 100 plasma balls if you only need 5 as it'll account for 100 wether you use them or not. 4. For all the black matter, dissolve triggers, and anything off screen that'll never bee seen, I use a triangle shape as it saves one edge each time, it might mean an extra object or three by the time you finish. 5. Like rtm says , lighting can make all the difference. A couple of spotlights here and some adjustment on the Global Lighting Switch can turn a drab looking scene into something a lot better without the need to overdo on a ton of detail. Colour correction is also a really simple way to make the look of the level 'pop', the standard setting is pretty horrendous, so play around with that too. (I think i used about 200 spotlights in each of my last 2 levels. Without them and the Global tool, it looks pretty dire)

2009-08-25 00:55:00 Author: julesyjules Posts: 1156

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Here are the main things I can think of.... 4. For all the black matter, dissolve triggers, and anything off screen that'll never bee seen, I use a triangle shape as it saves one edge each time, it might mean an extra object or three by the time you finish. There's been a wealth of research into edges and how many you can squeeze into a level. There have been some confusing results to say the least. i talked to Mikey-Flies who tested this theory about triangles, thinking the vertices would save him on thermo, but he found that he could place no more triangles in a level than he could squares. For example, an empty level with nothing but cardboard squares laid down will result in about 1400 squares. But do it again with circles, and you'll get the exact same number. However, once you edit a circle and begin moving the edges around, or deleting a few corners, it loses its "circle shape" property and becomes an irregular, multi-sided polygon that I believe is more thermo-heavy. The circle tool, as long as it isn't screwed with at all, seems to be surprisingly efficient, and carries certain properties that other polygons don't have (rolling, bolts snapping to center). Interestingly, while you can get 1400 squares out of cardboard, you get get 2395 squares of dark matter. Dark matter apparently is one of the "cheapest" materials in the game. There's a ton of good research on what affects the thermo, and by how much. I'll post a few tidbits from the workshop: From Mikey-Flies' research: an empty level will hold, free and loose and unglued: 1400 score bubbles 1400 cardboard blocks 707 single life checkpoints 700 cardboard block -> piston -> cardboard block. This is really interesting as it would appear to refute the idea that moving pistons lead to overheating as this is the same as the 1400 single cardboard blocks but with the addition of a piston in the middle! 700 cardboard block -> cardboard block -> motor bolt (back to front). Once again the same as the 1400 loose blocks but with the motor bolt in place 1400 led lights. - Causes extreme lag when placed tightly together! 1153 cardboard blocks with mag switches on them - Note this also raised several too much complexity in this area messages. This puts a mag switch as cooler than a cardboard block but hotter than a piston/motor bolt (which appears to be "free") * Lethalizing objects is "free" as far as the thermometer goes. Stickers also appear to be free from a thermo standpoint. Tons of other stats out there, but it all becomes kind of a grey area once you get into the high complexity of level creating. EDIT: I want to join the "corner-editing" chorus. It is the handiest, dandiest tool. It used be, I'd create shapes by "carving" using the various preset shapes like the crescent moon and semi-circle and whittle out the shape I wanted from a block. NO MORE! I ended up with ridiculously complex objects with too many vertices. Now, if I want a hill, i create a large square. I go into the corner editor, move my corners around, and add one or two in between and lift them up, shift them around. you'd be surprised how smooth you can make an object look with only a tiny handful of corners. Julesyjules mentioned sponge being great for this because it rounds the corners - very very true. Using my examples of hills, make them out of any one of the sponge/cloth materials, and you'll find that with only a few corners - literally just a few, 5 or 6 total - you can get very round, smooth looking hills. And all for very cheap on the thermometer!

2009-08-25 01:48:00 Author: Teebonesy Posts: 1937

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Yeah, the shape rules are huge. I did some testing with it also and since Yarg, the basic shapes such as circles and squares are stored differently than if you create complex non-default shapes. I think the reason dark matter is so efficient is because it has no physics properties that have to be handled by the processor.... however, once you glue cardboard or another material TO dark matter it also becomes much more efficient - at least with certain thermo's such as the "separate objects" thermo.

2009-08-25 02:13:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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I never knew that about squares & circles Teebonesy, i just assumed every vertice counted towards a limit.....

2009-08-25 02:17:00 Author: julesyjules Posts: 1156

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I never knew that about squares & circles Teebonesy, i just assumed every vertice counted towards a limit..... I was surprised too... As CCubbage mentioned, it seems that at least some of the default shapes, unchanged, un-corner-edited, are about equal. BUT! As soon as they're used in editing, then the vertices count. For example, if you make a big box, and then carve out a sackboy-shaped hole in the middle, you're not going to fit many of those in the level. I don't think you could fit 1400 of those sackboy pieces either, I'm pretty sure those are a bit more thermo-heavy. I'm not sure exactly how it all works, but I do know that if you use the corner editor tool on the basic square and just shift the corners around into a different quadrilateral shape, it does NOT affect thermometer. it's free, in other words. Not sure if it would make a big difference if you added one corner or removed one... Might be worth looking into.

2009-08-25 05:51:00 Author: Teebonesy Posts: 1937

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- Limit yourself to three main materials for design. Dark matter and dissolve don't count since they're more or less like tools. - Try not to use too many complex shapes. This is my weak point, since my visual style involves using the corner editor a lot, however, if you choose your materials wisely, you won't have to use the corner editor so much to make the level look nice. I guess it also depends on the theme - outdoor themes will require heavy use of the corner editor, yet you can limit yourself to Rough stone and some grassy-material (Grass sponge or the greenearthlikewoodwhichIcannotrememberthenameofatt hisverypointintime). - Try glueing things to other objects, this reduces thermo somehow... To make your level longer, try adding puzzels as well or make the player revisit a couple of areas...

2009-08-25 14:29:00 Author: KoRnDawwg Posts: 1424

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Limit yourself to three main materials for design. Dark matter and dissolve don't count since they're more or less like tools. *sigh* This sort of thing is the problem with thermo management. This seems to be a common "rule of thumb", which always pops up in such threads, but it doesn't actually aid your thermo management one bit. All it does is keep one of the many thermos very very low - there is no need. You can use the same amount of corner editing with 3 materials as you can with 10.

2009-08-25 14:44:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Couple interesting points here: - Limit yourself to three main materials for design. Dark matter and dissolve don't count since they're more or less like tools. Since material is a separate thermo, you can really use many materials without affecting the highest thermo. Usually the separate objects thermo or the complex shapes thermo are much higher than the material. I usually try to stick to less materials until near the end of creating the level... then I go hog wild with materials and the thermo doesn't go up at all until the material thermo gets higher than your highest thermo. - Try glueing things to other objects, this reduces thermo somehow... This specifically reduces the "separate objects" thermo, which determines the complexity of the physics. As soon as an object is glued to dark matter or the base of the level it no longer requires physics - for instance, it no longer needs to roll, move, or even be crushed.

2009-08-25 14:47:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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nice tips. Unfortunately i don't have much to add (that has been tested out).

2009-08-25 14:54:00 Author: Chuk_Chuk Posts: 108

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Quite a bit of what I would have suggested has been covered. ..another that sort of got touched on, but may not be quite as obvious is try not to embed as many materials into each other. Even embedded shapes of the same material will add points or vertices's to the shape. It isn't huge, but saving a bit here adds quite a bit at the end where you might start having to make some concessions. For example here is one that sometimes isn't obvious.. I've seen quite a few that embed dark matter into a panel or object off room so to speak to hold it in position. Well.. it works, but you just added at least 3 or more corners to the original object besides the 3 or more for the DM itself. For the most part I glue DM to the edge or top of an room or piece of room. I've also attached a rod or two if I am too freaked to glue down an object that has some movement. Much cheaper on the thermo... For example in a few earlier levels, I redid quite a bit in this manner and regained a few bars of thermo.. Of course I used it up on other stuff, but more stuff is good right?! If the effect is simply layered elements, sometimes custom stickers can be a huge friend rather than actually having the "cuts" or extra embedded material so to speak. And now, I will venture a guess on default shapes being less thermo. I think why default shapes might be lower is they possibly only have to store the shape type, size, and position for a default shape rather than having to map the points separately.

2009-08-25 16:32:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383

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