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Archive: 54 posts

2009-08-24 14:12:00

Author:
Frank-the-Bunny

Posts: 1246

We might one day. You never know.. There could be another galaxy watching out for us like in Knowing.

You can never really know whats going to happen

2009-08-24 14:18:00

Author:
Snrm

Posts: 6419

I think there are definatly lifeforms on other planets somewhere!

People say the chances of another planet being habitable is 1 in a trillion...
But there are probably over 1000 trillion other solar systems out there!

The chances of us finding lifeforms on another planet is very unlikely but i'm sure they're out there somewhere.

2009-08-24 14:24:00

Author:
Dexiro

Posts: 2100

Shouldn't "Aliens" not even be a question of existence? I mean, there are billions upon billions of other galaxies some that are multiple times bigger then ares, how can we be the only ones with the odds in our favor, what do you think? Will we eventually find other life? If we do i can only hope that it is nothing like District 9...

Yes, logically, given how easy life is to get going (the process has been replicated in a lab and requires primarily ingredients that are very common throughout the universe), and the sheer immensity of the universe, I would say that sheer probability would lead one to conclude that the phenomena of organisms is not unique to this one particular planet.

HOWEVER, still, the facts are not in - so I'd say once you understand the immensity of the universe, if you then jump to "so there has to be life out there", that's 'going with your gut' to a degree, and probably not entirely rational.

I'd just leave it as - "it would seem the likely case, but the facts are not in". There is a nobility in not "thinking with your gut".

But I'm pretty sure our guts are pointed in the same direction.

2009-08-24 14:49:00

Author:
Jagrevi

Posts: 1154

First ghosts.... now aliens. Hmmm... can't sleep at night with all these questions running through your mind? lol

This topic is likely to open up large debate as well. Just warning you now so you don't have this thread locked too.

2009-08-24 15:36:00

Author:
Rustbukkit

Posts: 1737

First ghosts.... now aliens. Hmmm... can't sleep at night with all these questions running through your mind? lol

Lol - I came back to that thread after I ate and responded - but now the thread is locked.

So ... that means I won by default, right?

2009-08-24 15:39:00

Author:
Jagrevi

Posts: 1154

Ah, aliens. Yet another unexplained phenomena in our world. Hey, TC, there's a book I think you should read. It's called The Mothman Prophecies by John Keel. It deals with all sorts of paranormal phenomena and offers some explanations that I find to be (at least somewhat) satisfactory. I'd check it out, if you can find it. It's kind of old (written in the 70s, I believe) and libraries or bookstores might not have it near you.

Anyway, getting back to the topic at hand, I think that, in a universe as infinitely large as ours is, it would be foolish to think ours is the only planet with life, no? That said, all this business about flying saucers and little green men is something that I'm not entirely sure about. And if that's what TC means instead of just the possibility of life out there *waves hand vaguely* then I'm going to get out now before it's too late.

2009-08-24 16:13:00

Author:
dandygandy2704

Posts: 1002

no i asked for the thread to be locked it was starting to veer off course no offense, it was gettign into other topic and rather then have anyone get negative points or anything i asked it to be locked. And yes i have many questions going on in my head that are fluttering around in my mind. I just feel some small when you think about how much their really is out there and for us to be it seems outlandish i just feel there must be something and i do hope we make contact the thing is, as a world we fight since our inception and fight til we pass on, where is the peace in the world, gone are the "simpler" times, i just hope that if we do somehow find life, we don't treat it as we do ourselves

2009-08-24 16:24:00

Author:
Frank-the-Bunny

Posts: 1246

Unfortunately, I foresee that any sentient life we come into contact with will eventually lead to conflict. Call me cynical, but our track record is very poor with regards to treating each other with respect as equal human beings, even today. What chance do we have of treating an entirely new species differently when we have trouble accepting our own differences?

We're better off staying in our own little corner of the universe until we learn to value education and respect, and let go of hatred and bigotry. One can always dream.

2009-08-24 16:46:00

Author:
Gilgamesh

Posts: 2536

gone are the "simpler" times

I would just like to put forth that the idea that the past was "the golden days" is largely erroneous. All insight suggests that people were on average no more content than modern people, and we know for certain that standards of living were FAR more harsh.

Every generation seem so to accuse the world of having "lost it's way", and yearned for "simpler times". I believe it's an ancient (Syrian?) tablet that says something to the effect of

"Children no longer respect their elders, people have turned away from tradition to strange new gods, and everyman wants to write. Clearly the end of times is upon us".

Just to clarify ... the world did not end.

Clearly, when you go back farther in history, people in these so called "Golden Days" also wished "to return to the Golden Days".

I'd put forth that the past is no more "golden" other than as children, we had the "privilege" of ignorance.

2009-08-24 17:43:00

Author:
Jagrevi

Posts: 1154

I'd put forth that the past is no more "golden" other than as children, we had the "privilege" of ignorance.

Mmmm... the privelege of ignorance. Pure bliss!!!

I think there has to be life elsewhere... the odds are completely in favour of this. As for whether they are here or not already.... I'm gonna' say - probably. We just had a UFO crash a few weeks ago here in the Ottawa River. The incident is still unexplained and seems to have conveniently left peoples minds.

There is plenty of solid video footage being released from many world governments (oddly England, and North America seem to be against telling people the truth) all the time. Sure sure, people are going to say it's fake... but the fact remains that they have had leading people in their respective fields study the footage and find that the images haven't been tampered with in any way and that the phenomenon taking place is unexplained and of no "known" craft that is made by human hands or engineering.

Then again, I suppose it could be giant dust particles intelligently floating through the air. lol

Seriously though, the recent rash of mass sightings taking place in Mexico and Peru seem to offer plenty of evidence that we are not alone... that or our governments have some things flying around that are far more advanced than they are letting on about.

2009-08-24 17:49:00

Author:
Rustbukkit

Posts: 1737

i think if aliens came on earth they will be friendly but if we come on a planet with lower intelligent we wil do maybe one of this two thinks
1:are soul says ,Lets Be friends,
2:are instincts says ,take it over!,

2009-08-24 18:45:00

Author:
Unknown User

You would have to be ignorant to think life COULDN'T be on other planets, it's just simply impossible. For every star you see, there's probably another system like ours. I mean, there was water on Mars, there's ice on one of Jupiter's moons, and Scientists discovered a planet coated with ice and are sending a probe to check it out.

2009-08-24 19:06:00

Author:
TheMarvelousHat

Posts: 542

There are actually a surprising number of smart people who make a strong case for there being no intelligent alien life out there. I personally don't buy into this viewpoint, mainly because it paints another egocentric picture of humanity. If the general consensus becomes that we ARE alone, then boy, aren't we special? Copernicus WHO??

that's the crucial question actually - not just alien life - but INTELLIGENT alien life. How rare IS it exactly? We can measure that electromagnetic radiation can travel indefinitely through the universe. Why is it we have never once come across an alien broadcast of some sort? We've measured so much radiation from such a long period of time and such large swathes of galactic real estate, where are the alien reality shows??

Stephen Hawking has pondered this question and come up with a few possibilities:

1. that there simply is no intelligent life out there. Hell, most of us would agree there's none HERE, but that's another issue. Under this viewpoint, there is still likely to be alien life out there, but any life would be rare, and intelligent life so rare that we may just be a single isolated anomaly.
2. That intelligent life is out there, but the conditions for it are incredibly rare, making it unlikely we may come into contact with it.
3. That intelligent life is more common than the above conditions, but that they destroy themselves once the technology to do so is developed.

Now, that number 3 is one hell of a bleak viewpoint. But all 3 conditions seem to paint some fairly lonely pictures.

It's too big, the universe. It's way too big. If there's only one other intelligent system in our entire galaxy, and if that's the average for intelligence in a single galaxy, we're still looking at hundreds of billions of intelligent species out there.

Perhaps space travel over astronomical distances is beyond even the most advanced alien technology, and for this reason we won't ever be able to meet intelligent alien life.

Our best bet is to receive their broadcasts. Exciting day, that.

2009-08-24 21:25:00

Author:
Teebonesy

Posts: 1937

I heard somewhere that the world.... is a stage, out of the other stages (planets), and this one is going to end.

On 12/2?/12

2009-08-24 21:39:00

Author:
Ryutei

Posts: 244

I heard somewhere that the world.... is a stage, out of the other stages (planets), and this one is going to end.

On 12/2?/12

i whant to see that

oh you mean ure planet

lets nuke saturnus on that day

2009-08-24 21:42:00

Author:
Unknown User

Seeing how vast and infinite the universe is, I'd say that's it's very probable for at least one other intelligent species to be existing inside the universe. There's probably 100s of trillions of other planets out there, and it's probable for many of them to contain sentient life forms. Although we don't know for fact that aliens exist, so I'm not going to treat it as it's a fact, although, still, it's pretty darn likely for aliens to exist.

2009-08-24 21:57:00

Author:
lk9988

Posts: 1077

I don't like using the word 'aliens'. It makes them sound evil...

But I do believe earth isn't the only planet to have life-forms. We're not that special.

2009-08-24 21:58:00

Author:
Leather-Monkey

Posts: 2266

Are we alone in this universe? hell no. Probabilities are on the side of life for this question.

Can they come here? If the universe is infinite and it means it didn't began and it will not end. Therefore, there could be life at each of the possible stage of infinity. Basically, anything is possible because we can't even tell how evolve we are, it GREATLY surpass our capacities and probably the capacity that we will ever devellop if it's true that universe is infinite.

Are they coming here right now? So far, there isn't proof they did. Just some **** interesting facts that happened and that we can associate to extra-terrestrial stuff.

.

2009-08-25 02:09:00

Author:
RangerZero

Posts: 3901

Can they come here? If the universe is infinite and it means it didn't began and it will not end.

Just some history on this one. During the early 20th century, there were two primary theories on cosmogenesis. One was "Steady-State", while the other was "The Big-Bang", which incidently was named by the main proponent of Steady-State as a pejorative, but caught on with everyone without the implication. (kind of like the origin of the word "Spaniard")

Anyways, for a time there seemed to be a stalemate in regards to the available evidence. That all changed when a couple of guys, completely by accident discovered cosmic background radiation while testing out a new microwave receiver.

What they stumbled across was the "smoking gun" of 'the big bang'.

Without going into the details of how thorough and convincing this evidence was when combined with the scientific knowledge of the time, "Steady-State" was completely blown out of the water.

Now-a-days, not only do we have the Cosmic microwave background radiation, we can actually chart the distance speed and direction of other objects in space using simple geometry (triangulation) and the way light color-shifts. We have distribution maps of galaxies over time, and Hubble's law to tie it all together, and it is abundantly clear that there was a point in time where all matter in the known universe was, essentially, "on top of each other". It is all from a common point.

In modern science - the fiercest and most thorough intellectual arena we have in today's society - there is no one of education and sound mind that has any doubt that the known universe did have an "origin point in time". That there is a "first moment of known time". (If you're chomping at the bit though, notice I used the word "known" twice, don't worry)

The usual interpretation of big bang theory (Again, I'll get to the dissenters in a minute) would state that there is an absolute first moment of the universe, where the universe was effectively "infinitely" simple. An "incredibly simple square one", if you will, with nothing before it - making asking "what came before the first moment?" a null question, much like "what's slower than not moving?" or "what's colder than absolute zero?" (Not all dimensions are euclidean)

HOWEVER, some people have brought up recently - although I haven't heard the details of - the concept that "The Big Bang" that we know of may in fact simply be the most recent (from our perspective), in a continuing sequence of expansions and collapses. In otherwords, "A Big Bounce".

Regardless, even if there is "universe before the known universe", since essentially all complexity of form and information would be lost in each "bounce", previous potential "itterations of the universe", while fascinating, can be practically disregarded for all relevant purposes.

Basically, anything is possible because we can't even tell how evolve we are, it GREATLY surpass our capacities and probably the capacity that we will ever devellop if it's true that universe is infinite

Again, while still within the range of scientific possibility as I mentioned before, the universe is probably not infinite based on everything we know.

However, it is so completely, incomprehensibly immense that's probably the closest we could come to envisioning it's breadth ... but again, probably not technically true. I will admit though, that for our brains, we might as well think of it that way when trying to envision it's size for practical purposes.

Oh, also, being "evolved" isn't something you can numerate. It's not a ladder that you climb higher and higher on ... people aren't "more" evolved than a chimpanzee, for example, we've merely evolved differently.

Are they coming here right now? So far, there isn't proof they did.

Here we completely agree.

2009-08-25 03:15:00

Author:
Jagrevi

Posts: 1154

I'm still hoping there are actual timelords out there and that one day I'll stumble upon a big blue box.

2009-08-25 04:51:00

Author:
slutzinc

Posts: 124

I'm still hoping there are actual timelords out there and that one day I'll stumble upon a big blue box.

I got to meet one in person at comic-con recently ... of course he's going to regenerate into someone else pretty soon.

2009-08-25 05:04:00

Author:
Jagrevi

Posts: 1154

I can't even begin to describe how envious I am.

And I'm really excited to see how Eleven will turn out, although I have complete faith in Steven Moffatt as new head writer and co-producer.

Anyways, back on topic, I'm also of the belief that when you consider the size of the universe, the probability that there is other sentient species out there is far greater than the chances that we are the only ones.

2009-08-25 05:16:00

Author:
slutzinc

Posts: 124

I believe there is most likely other life in the universe but just not in the form that most people think of. There's enough evidence for plant like/ microscopic life in the universe in my oppinion (even on mars because of its ice caps and evidence of former seas/ rivers) but a lot of ideas of the stereotypical 'alien' have been in the shape of a human/ animal found on earth.

If there really was somewhat intelligent life in the universe (and by intelligent I mean anything capable of making decicions with something that makes it think with even the most simple of intelligence levels) then I wouldn't expect it to look anything like creatures on earth. Well, to be fair, gravity would probably make any creatures adapt over time to have limbs or something that supports it but, who knows, creatures in distant galaxies could be made of gas/ liquid and float around all over the place. That may sound a bit silly/ farfetched but the truth is, we don't know enough about the universe to say how things should be at all.

What I think is silly though is the stereotypical 'alien' from films and stuff where it's basically a strange looking human shaped thing that flies around in a saucer type thing, abducting people (cough, attention seekers and druggies, cough) and landing in fields in empty parts of America (crop circles are made by farmers who are skilled tractor drivers I'm guessing).

Anyway, away from what I see as the obvious stuff another thing related to this is time travel. Personally, I don't believe in the normal concept of time, the human concept of time originated from the cycle of day and night. It all occurred at a constant rate so that might make people think that time was constant but really all it means is that the earth is spinning at a constant speed (almost constant). There have been tests done of moving objects near to the speed of light (moving an object with mass to the speed of light is impossible by the way) and the clock outside would record a certain time, but the clock inside the object would record a slightly less amount of time. This proves that the faster an object is moving, the slower the time passes for it. In my oppinion, this proves the normal concept of time wrong because apparently, time is constant.

So, I think that we will never know enough about the universe to come to a final answer that is 100% certain about any of this though.

2009-08-25 05:31:00

Author:
S-A-S--G-U-N-R

Posts: 1606

I agree with you that any alien lifeforms isn't necessarily humanoid in shape, and could be anything, depending on the conditions under which they evolved. I think the notion that sentient alien beings are humanoid stems from an underlying egocentrical idea of the human creation being flawless ? when in fact it's not. If you think about it, our design is heavily flawed, and if it weren't for our ability to make the tools necessary for our survival, we'd be exctinct long ago.

2009-08-25 05:40:00

Author:
slutzinc

Posts: 124

Yeah, exactly. Humans may not be the toughest physically but are more intelligent than any other animal on earth.

2009-08-25 06:07:00

Author:
S-A-S--G-U-N-R

Posts: 1606

HOWEVER, some people have brought up recently - although I haven't heard the details of - the concept that "The Big Bang" that we know of may in fact simply be the most recent (from our perspective), in a continuing sequence of expansions and collapses. In otherwords, "A Big Bounce".

So yeah, there's multiple theories so I will not adhere to any of them until one comes as really satisfying for me or when the evidence will talk by itself for an amazingly large percentage of people. With stuff like the shape of the universe and such thing, I just think we have to much limits to really be serious about that. I mean, we do have some strong ego no matter how you spin it. Let's agree that we might know "our part of perceptible reality" pretty well.

Oh, also, being "evolved" isn't something you can numerate. It's not a ladder that you climb higher and higher on ... people aren't "more" evolved than a chimpanzee, for example, we've merely evolved differently.

You got to read between words here. It's a manner of speaking, a lack of better words on my part. I don't know how to word it better, let's say a being that would be "more capable" ?

.

2009-08-25 06:30:00

Author:
RangerZero

Posts: 3901

Yeah, exactly. Humans may not be the toughest physically but are more intelligent than any other animal on earth.

and the evilst you forgot that

2009-08-25 07:47:00

Author:
Unknown User

^ Also true >:]

2009-08-25 07:48:00

Author:
S-A-S--G-U-N-R

Posts: 1606

2009-08-25 08:47:00

Author:
Shris

Posts: 126

Someone mentioned that if their were 'aliens', they too, might not have the technology to reach us either due to the size of the Universe. I watched a show on a bunch of space stuff and they talked about black holes saying that could anything sucked into it simply disappear, or possibly instantly appear somewhere else, they suggested something like a 'white hole'. But to the point, maybe they have, if they are actually intelligent, figured out how the black hole works and possibly use it. Sounds pretty dumb but you can't be too sure right?

I've also heard that scientists can actually hear the echo of the 'Big Bang'. I think someone mentioned something like this aswell. And that all matter of the universe is moving away from the center where the big bang occured, and if there is an end that we will eventually be pushed back to the center.

This is all just stuff I've heard though, and can't say for sure if I'm even remembering it correctly.

And like S-A-S--G-U-N-R, I don't believe that if there are aliens out there that they would in any way resemble a human. Which makes me think that its quite dumb to look for other life just where that which allows us humans to live. Thats pretty narrow minded considering all that which we don't know about the universe, like something thats lethal to us could be something that another life form needs.

You're pretty accurate actually, in the things you're remembering. "White holes" you probably heard about from Dr. Michio Kaku, but there have been theories regarding wormholes for a long time. I think the only thing you could really be sure of if you sent someone into a black hole is that you'd **** sure never see him again.

I kind of like the idea of a white hole because it suggests that if black holes allowed for long-distance interstellar travel - that it's a one-way trip. You go in, you come out, but there's never any going back.

Either way, anything with gravitational force strong enough to trap light is not going to do wonders for your complexion, I'll say that much.

But I think the reason why it's a good idea to search for life on planets similar to our own is that all of our knowledge of life and life-sustaining worlds comes from our own system - it's all we have. We know that there aren't any major life forms on any other planet in our solar system. There's a small chance of something like bacteria deep inside Europa, an ice moon of Jupiter. We see that deep in our own oceans, near undersea volcanic vents, there is life - whole ecosystems completely and totally dependent on the vent heat, that thrive without even a hint of sunlight. Well, we know that other planets in our solar system are teeming with volcanic activity. If Europa has volcanoes deep under the icy surface, it may be enough to melt the ice and create similar conditions for a budding ecosystem of micro organisms.

The point is that we know of the possibility based on findings here on earth - it's the best we have to go on. It gives us a higher percentage of finding something than if we searched Neptune, or Venus, or a random moon of Saturn. It could be that alien life is so incredibly alien we can hardly fathom it and we're looking in the wrong places. I read an Arthur C. Clarke story that posited the idea of gigantic floating space creatures nearly invisible to us that lived in and near suns.

But we're going to have much higher odds sticking to what we know for now. If we can find planets - and we have found a few - that match or come near the conditions on earth - that is, the right temperature for life-sustaining liquid water - we may just find our aliens.

2009-08-25 10:50:00

Author:
Teebonesy

Posts: 1937

Aliens may exist somewhere, so far away that we will never see them
They have never visted earth before
Alien UFOs are a myth

Thats my thoughts

2009-08-25 12:14:00

Author:
springs86

Posts: 785

And like S-A-S--G-U-N-R, I don't believe that if there are aliens out there that they would in any way resemble a human. Which makes me think that its quite dumb to look for other life just where that which allows us humans to live. Thats pretty narrow minded considering all that which we don't know about the universe, like something thats lethal to us could be something that another life form needs.

Well yes, as Teebonesy pointed out there are, in our world, animals that thrive on volcano vents underwater, bacteria that live off sulphuric acid. BTW Teebonesy, have you been watching Planet Earth recently? But certain aspects and requirements are common to all life on earth. Oxygen, carbon and water for example. Now it's possible that life could have evolved elsewhere under other circumstances, but it's less likely. When dealing with the unknown, you take what you DO know and make educated guesses - you don't just stab in the dark.

Something that I don't think has come up is the fact that, whilst the odds of their being life elsewhere in universe are high (albeit the odds also suggest they will be a long way from us), there are all sorts of other factors involved in really contacting Aliens.

1. If we find life, what are the chances it would be sentient - we don't know the odds of that, one species achieved it on our world, but was that inevitable, or just a fluke?
2. Would they be of similar sentience to us? It could be there are levels of sentience that are far beyond what we have achieved.
3. This one is the interesting one: How would we communicate with one another? People from different cultures on Earth have learned to communicate with each other and cross language barriers, so why couldn't we with other sentient species.

Well all we have in terms of difference on earth is cultural. The biological / physiological differences are minimal. We may not have any common ground with these aliens whatsoever. Their methods of communication, their brain structures could all be so different as to defy any form of communication. What's the point in meeting aliens if you can't talk to them? You can fight them, but they've got plasma cannons and forcefields (fact) so we'd just get a whupping.

If anyone has read the Ender Saga, by Orson Scott Card, the Heirachy of Exclusion is a really interesting concept. It basically outlines differing levels of alieness. The Varelse for example are "strangers from another species who are not able to communicate with us. They are true aliens, completely incapable of common ground with humanity." If our aliens come under this category, which is more than possible, then what happens?

As a side note, Card actually debunks this concept in his own work, using it as a conceptual tool to say more about humanity than about the concept of aliens. The books really are very good - I'd advise anyone to get a copy of Ender's Game.

2009-08-25 13:35:00

Author:
rtm223

Posts: 6497

You got to read between words here. It's a manner of speaking, a lack of better words on my part. I don't know how to word it better, let's say a being that would be "more capable" ?

I just want to make it clear that I'm not picking on you. In Science, the precise words you use make an enormous difference, you cannot be casual with language. If you use sloppy language in peer review literature, people will write entire books on the false implications you've put forth.

That being said, when people discuss this, and someone makes all of these kinds of corrections that are necessary to accurately communicate, alot of people feel attacked - like they're being corrected 'for the spite of it'.

I hope you don't feel that I'm picking on you, it's just that the distinctions matter if we're going to talk about these subject matters.

So yeah, there's multiple theories so I will not adhere to any of them until one comes as really satisfying for me or when the evidence will talk by itself for an amazingly large percentage of people.

I would just want to point out that...

1) there is an enormous amount of evidence for things of this matter, but the public is not universally educated to be scientifically literate and does not see or read about most any of it. There are many things that are undisputed in legitimate science, that a majority of the population does not accept, or, in some cases, is even aware about.

The public is simply not given scientific evidence in any kind of regular basis, and is always very scientifically illiterate by the standards of the day.

Occasionally, someone in the public sphere will want to be a bit more intellectually honest and choose to do research on a subject matter. Unfortunately, they rarely have been taught how to do effective research, and there are alot of people out there spewing constant misinformation.

Succinctly, basing acceptance of an idea based on public acceptance is a horrendously inaccurate methodology. Most people, when they talk about things of a scientific nature, unfortunately, don't really know what they're talking about. Some people do, but there are an equal if not greater amount of people out there spewing gibberish.

Not necessarily maliciously either, merely out of ignorance. (I'd like to point out that having "ignorance" is not actually an insult. Ignorance simply means a gap of your understanding, and we all have it somewhere. I am ignorant of many things - such as how to prepare even most simple meals) Children will pry all sorts of questions out of you, and unfortunately most parents will give answers for things they actually don't understand. Education has to fight against human nature, in many ways.

2) accepting a theory because it's "really satisfying" is, at least from a scientific perspective, reprehensible. If you worked as a scientist now, there would be people pushing for your career to be over.

Let's agree that we might know "our part of perceptible reality" pretty well.

While I would agree there, I would also like to point out that alot of things most people think of as "imperceptible", we're already dealing with. The Large Hadron Collider, (LHC), under Geneva, for example, is set up, among many other things, to detect other dimensions, potentially to calculate how many there are (although this is something that again, we've already made some headway into even beforehand). EDIT: Go over to the "Age of Spiritual Machines" thread and watch the video in Teebonesy's post - I think you'll like it. Multiverse conversation.

Secondly, I'd like to put forth an argument that if a phenomena affects our brains any way; if you hear it, see it, smell it, experience it in any fashion - then it is, by definition, perceptible. If you have any kind of past, current, or potential connection to it or ability to interact, then out of definition it is interacting with the perceptible world, and since we can monitor patterns and changes in the perceptible world, this phenomena is therefore perceptible.

If something is honestly "imperceptible" that would mean either

1) It actually is potentially scientifically perceptible and we are merely too technologically primitive and need to develop new technologies. This would be simply using the term as a bit of an exaggeration.

or

2) It is completely and permanently aside from reality as we exist and therefore is irrelevant for all practical purposes. "Across a gap that cannot be breached". Intelligent beings of this sort, while fascinating, I hope you appreciate are something that for all intensive purposes, have absolutely no bearing on our reality.

2009-08-25 14:33:00

Author:
Jagrevi

Posts: 1154

* Everything I just said *

Whew.... you think a lot about stuff....

Have a cookie?

2009-08-25 15:56:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

Whew.... you think a lot about stuff....

Have a cookie?

Mmmmmm, cookie.

Anyways, again, about the whole "universe potentially being infinite or not" and "how perceptible these things really are" topic, there's a great Michio Kaku video Teebonesy posted in the "Age of Spiritual Machines" thread addressing some of the things going on in physics.

But anyways, thinking is "the idea", no?

2009-08-25 16:05:00

Author:
Jagrevi

Posts: 1154

Mmmmmm, cookie.

Anyways, again, about the whole "universe potentially being infinite or not" and "how perceptible these things really are" topic, there's a great Michio Kaku video Teebonesy posted in the "Age of Spiritual Machines" thread addressing some of the things going on in physics.

But anyways, thinking is "the idea", no?
Sometimes.

I've found that some people tend to take things that are relatively simple and make them complicated, others take things that are complicated and make them simple.

For instance, the answer to "Are there aliens" could either be "Hmmm... could be... I've never seen one..." or could be an entire book that somehow means the same thing.

If a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound?

"Wow... that's a dilemma I'm going to lose sleep over!"
"Yes! The same physical reaction happens whether you hear it or not!"
"No! If you don't hear it, how could it be considered a sound?"
"Maybe the poor chipmunk living in the tree heard it!"
"Does it matter? I still need to clean out the kitty litter either way...."

Sorry... sometimes in-between software builds I try to post on a thread... this was the most interesting one...

2009-08-25 16:37:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

[QUOTE=CCubbage;272218]Sometimes.

I've found that some people tend to take things that are relatively simple and make them complicated, others take things that are complicated and make them simple.

Complicating the answer often implies an amount of enthusiasm or interest on the part of the person doing the answering . . . nothing wrong with that.

On the subject of aliens though. . . I find myself in the lesser interested quick answer group of "yeah they're probably out there".

2009-08-25 16:57:00

Author:
squirlin

Posts: 224

Yup... I agree with that.

I'm actually in the category of people that complicate the answer, so I'm certainly not picking on anyone.

2009-08-25 17:05:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

Has anyone read Rendezvous with Rama? Great Arthur C. Clarke book, a classic in the scifi genre, that paints a picture of humans first coming into contact with alien technology. Very exciting. This is the book that gets a lot of people who don't think they'd like scifi, rabidly into the stuff.

2009-08-25 21:40:00

Author:
Teebonesy

Posts: 1937

But Jagrevi IS an artist of the complicated. I must be an exemple of the other type.

.

2009-08-26 00:43:00

Author:
RangerZero

Posts: 3901

ALIENZ ZOMG!

Mai catz an alien.

Im an alien cuz I can turn my foot around 360 degrees. TRUE STORY!

2009-08-26 02:54:00

Author:
qrtda235566

Posts: 3664

But Jagrevi IS an artist of the complicated. I must be an exemple of the other type.

I appreciate the choice terminology.

2009-08-26 03:03:00

Author:
Jagrevi

Posts: 1154

In Science, the precise words you use make an enormous difference, you cannot be................................................ .................................................. .................. (whaaaaaat?) .................................................. .......................................while fascinating, I hope you appreciate are something that for all intensive purposes, have absolutely no bearing on our reality.

Hey... watch your language... there's kids on here!!

lol... just kidding

(no really)

2009-08-26 05:31:00

Author:
Rustbukkit

Posts: 1737

2009-08-26 06:18:00

Author:
qrtda235566

Posts: 3664

Yes, some great points both Teebonesy and Rtm. And quite honestly I agree to take what we do know and go off that, as we do probably have a better chance. And possibly finding an alien lifeform that in some way could be similar to something on Earth, just a thought.

But this
It could be that alien life is so incredibly alien we can hardly fathom it and we're looking in the wrong places really just nails what I've been thinking. But any alien species that should fit into this category could be very hard to communicate with. Then again it kinda goes against the whole theory.

About Europa, aren't they sending some sort of robot to dig down into the water? And I'm pretty sure theres another moon of Jupiters that has volcanic activity.(?) I think that could hold life aswell right? Going along with whats said about the undersea ecosystems living off that stuff, though again I guess water plays a role there too.

2009-08-26 08:03:00

Author:
Shris

Posts: 126

I BELEAVE IN ALIUMS CUZ ALIUMS VIZITED MEH WUNSE.

WUNSE TEHY SAY: GO BILD THAT LAWL SO I BILT IT.

TEHRE R ALIUMS IN MAJORAS MASK I LIKE MAJORAS MASK

http://zeldawiki.org/images/e/e5/Them.png
Pictured above: ALIUMS!

While your outlook is insightful, and I think you represent a sizable cross-section of mainstream society (in which case your opinions are naturally crucial to the discussion), you're making some mistakes in logic that I think I should point out. Mainly, that your experiences with the "aliums" have not been detailed, and should not be presented as evidence without a full disclosure so that the community can judge the veracity of your claims. Namely, these "alium" encounters may have been the result of late-night hypnagogic hallucinations, or perhaps a side-effect of a drug, malnourishment, sleep deprivation, or any number of catalysts.

As for the structure you "bilt" in response to the "alium" orders, I would recommend that you consider again that these orders could conceivably be the result of something a little more earthbound than you suggest. This isn't to downplay the quality of your construction, "lawl", I'm sure it's a solid structure, but I think you're selling yourself short - that complex contraption, and everything it did, was all you, not aliums. Give yourself a little credit.

Your statement about Majora's Mask, while endearing, provides no actual evidence of anything tangible regarding "aliums".

Aaaaaaand...

/Jagrevi impersonation

2009-08-26 08:49:00

Author:
Teebonesy

Posts: 1937

While your outlook is insightful, and I think you represent a sizable cross-section of mainstream society (in which case your opinions are naturally crucial to the discussion), you're making some mistakes in logic that I think I should point out. Mainly, that your experiences with the "aliums" have not been detailed, and should not be presented as evidence without a full disclosure so that the community can judge the veracity of your claims. Namely, these "alium" encounters may have been the result of late-night hypnagogic hallucinations, or perhaps a side-effect of a drug, malnourishment, sleep deprivation, or any number of catalysts.

As for the structure you "bilt" in response to the "alium" orders, I would recommend that you consider again that these orders could conceivably be the result of something a little more earthbound than you suggest. This isn't to downplay the quality of your construction, "lawl", I'm sure it's a solid structure, but I think you're selling yourself short - that complex contraption, and everything it did, was all you, not aliums. Give yourself a little credit.

Your statement about Majora's Mask, while endearing, provides no actual evidence of anything tangible regarding "aliums".

Aaaaaaand...

/Jagrevi impersonation
ROFLBEAR!!! I'm laughing so hard right now my eyes are tearing up.

alium encounters..... ah just peed meh pantz!

2009-08-26 14:03:00

Author:
CCubbage

Posts: 4430

aw man... I thought this thread was gonna be about the sci-fi movie aliens lol
http://blogs.amctv.com/scifi-scanner/aliens-3.jpg
Let's just hope nothing like that exists in the universe! :eek:!

2009-08-27 01:37:00

Author:
Incinerator22

Posts: 3251

I admit it's the first thing that popped into my head as well. One of my favorite movies? Aliens? Is HERE?? *combs back hair*

Naw but seriously, aliens man. Aliens.

Actually, that provides me a good springboard. The aliens in the movies are modeled after insects. Especially ants. termites as well.

Is anyone else here FREAKING BLOWN AWAY by certain insect populations, especially ants? I swear to God I could watch a 10-hour documentary on ants. I used to just sit and watch them as a kid doing their thing. I had my stupid-little-boy stomp-sessions as well, which I regret deeply in retrospect, but boy did those ants spring into action and start rebuilding. They don't even give themselves the time to go "AW CRAP!! WHY DID YOU... AWWWW...." They just spring right into action.

They have wars. They have queens. They have workers. They have complex societies. And then there are those super-colonies that are spread out across the world.

Aliens out there? We have aliens right here at home.

Speaking of which, they definitively traced glycine to a comet (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17628) that crashed to Earth. What this means is that, early in the Earth's history, one of the methods by which the raw ingredients for life were accumulated was by comets, meteors. They crashed to the planet carrying amino acids which would become the crucial building blocks for all life on the planet.

So, in a sense, all life on Earth is partially extraterrestrial, as we were partially birthed from rocks that originated from who KNOWS where.

2009-08-27 09:40:00

Author:
Teebonesy

Posts: 1937

Maybe I'm misreading that article, but doesn't that just confirm that a particular comet has amino acids on it, so it's possible that some other comets in the past did, and it's possible that a comet that struck the earth may have possibly provided some of the original building blocks for life? (count the conditionals

)

What you've described about insects is exactly why so many science-fiction stories describe the agressive aliens as being insect like (Bugs in Starship Troopers, Buggers in Enders Game, The Xenomorphs from the alien series, Tyranids in Warhammer 40K, just off the top of my head). They are alien to us, and it is very much alien to us that such small and simple creatures, which have no sentience or intelligence, seem to have these complex societies and complex social interactions and bizarre methods of communication. To people who don't actually study them, they are unfathomable, so they are a perfect starting point for the aliens we fight...

2009-08-27 10:03:00

Author:
rtm223

Posts: 6497

)

I guess here's what I, and the article, were getting at - Not that amino acids came to earth EXCLUSIVELY on comets - but that SOME of them came from comets, and this was but one source on the planet of the proteins that would eventually become life. at least some of the glycine that went into early dna would have been from these visitors because we know, or at least are reasonably sure, that the early Earth was bombarded with such comets. Sure, we can consider the idea that maybe none of those ones happened to carry amino acids, or maybe the ones that did never delivered their payloads into the primordial soup...

That's the cool thing about the primordial soup. We were all the same soup. everything on life came from the goo! We could say that we all came from those same ingredients, wherever they were from.

But sure, I'll give you that, maybe NONE of the glycine, or any of the other more complex amino compounds that scientists suspect lie in the nuclei of comets were part of the bouillon. It might have just been entirely earthbound. But at the same time, it's believed that much of the early water on earth WAS delivered from comets and that provided the broth. Broth... Bouillon...

Crap...
i'm going to go make some ramen.

2009-08-27 10:53:00

Author:
Teebonesy

Posts: 1937

Personally I don't think aliens have come to Earth, unless you know, they're too small to be seen with a microscope or there's very, very few of them, but I do think all the E.T ufo stuff is a load of bologna. It also seems wierd to me taht if aliens have abducted us, why would they look so much like us? They would probably be unthinkably strange, almost like a new state of matter or something. They would just look, well, alien!

2009-08-28 04:37:00

Author:
Incinerator22

Posts: 3251

I just like what NASA said a while ago...something like alien life could be far different from life on Earth...Well Duh
I don't see why we look for earth like planets
there could just as easily be life in the gases of Jupiter

2009-08-28 04:43:00

Author:
adlingtont

Posts: 321

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