Archive: 17 posts

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For those of you that don't want a history lesson or know what a Run'n Gun game is skip till the black line A Scrolling Shooter is a part of the Shoot 'em up catogeroy ,which is also a subgenre of shooter video games. Below are examples of the Shoot'em up games. R-Type http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/76/Rtypedoppelganger.png Space Invaders http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/20/SpaceInvaders-Gameplay.gif Most Scrolling Shooters consist of a vechile (mostly a space-ship) and a bird's eye view in which the player must shoot incoming enemies constantly to survive. But the type of Scroller shooters i would like to focus on are the ones that are called Run'n Gun games, where the player fights on foot, and has the ability to jump. A example of a Run'n Gun Game is Contra: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a2/Contra_ss02.jpg Contra consist of a player-controlled human protagonist who employs rapid-fire rifles to destroy enemies coming from left, right, above and below. But a even popular example is.......... http://www.pulse-classics.co.uk/images/metal%20slug/metalslug_05.jpg :star::star:METAL SLUG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:star::star: http://www.the-nextlevel.com/reviews/xbox/metal-slug-3/metal-slug-3-a.jpg In LBP terms, in a run'n Gun game is when you use the "Paintanator" to destory other incoming "creatures", but needing to constantly move to survive. :star::star::star::star::star::star::star::star::s tar::star::star::star::star::star::star::star::sta r: __________________________________________________ ____________________________ I've been studying run'n gun (metal slug for example) and LBP for some time. I was wondering if it was possible to get that "Zomg! So much bullets and death! But must keep playing!" feeling in LBP. Through my study I found out a few things: Sack boy cannot jump as high as most run'gun games. Bullets tend to shoot through most objects in a scolling shooter where as in LBP cannot not. The plasma ball has a larger hit radius (even when smaller) than other scroller shooters. Those are some of the issues I'm gonna have to work on to try and get the "run'n gun" feeling into LBP. But there is one huge difference between scrollershooters and LBP. LBP HAS A Z AXIES!!!!! When playing LBP shooter levels, it always comes down to hide or wait in another layer or behind some cover and then pop out to shoot the turrent/person. This on it's own is also fun, but is not the gameplay I'm looking for to create a run'n gun. It's running and gunning... not hiding and shooting accuratley In LBP, from what I played, the Metal Gear Rex Boss Fight is probably the cloesest level to a Scrolling Shooter gameplay. No Z- Axies, and you must keep on moving to survive. Did you like this type of gameplay on the Rex Boss? (The Rex boss still lacks in the jumping side of things...) Also if you have anything to add based on Run'n Gun games or LBP please post it here. P.S I'm not here to put down any players that made Run'gun tribute levels or the hide and shoot gameplay. This is all purely for research purpoeses for my levels.

2009-08-22 23:03:00 Author: snowyjoe Posts: 509

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In "Starship Troopers" I was trying to get a bit of this feeling - so all the way through the enemies are rushing you in a way that makes you kill them before they get you (the hard edition more so) - as well, I used invisible barriers to the other layers in those places to retain some 3D look but force the player to stay and face the battle in the layer (also used "jump pads" to simulate the feeling of leaping far into the air). I thought the "Contra" series (with NinjaMicWZ, Jaeyden, and Gevurah22 among others) did a good job - and some of the end bosses really adds some GREAT run-n-gun moments (such as the end of Snowfield). Too bad you couldn't play NinjaMicWZ's "Metal Slug Solid" - I thought that level did a TREMENDOUS job with this genre.... but it was accidentally deleted. One thing I was trying to do in the "Splat Invaders" series is force you into the action by closing off exits and attacking from above. There's a rising elevator section in the original where there is no where to hide and creates that feeling, as well as the final boss in Splat Invaders II which forces you go get up close and blow up bombs in midair to defeat the boss. In "Destiny" and "Vertigo" I was trying to also keep the adrenaline rush going as much as possible. Obviously, I'm a huge fan of the genre, but I do agree that the paintinator and general feeling of platforming in LBP loses a bit of the "edge" of the classics.

2009-08-22 23:45:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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For those of you that don't want a history lesson or know what a Run'n Gun game is skip till the black line A Scrolling Shooter is a part of the Shoot 'em up catogeroy ,which is also a subgenre of shooter video games. Below are examples of the Shoot'em up games. R-Type http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/76/Rtypedoppelganger.png Space Invaders http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/20/SpaceInvaders-Gameplay.gif Most Scrolling Shooters consist of a vechile (mostly a space-ship) and a bird's eye view in which the player must shoot incoming enemies constantly to survive. But the type of Scroller shooters i would like to focus on are the ones that are called Run'n Gun games, where the player fights on foot, and has the ability to jump. A example of a Run'n Gun Game is Contra: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a2/Contra_ss02.jpg Contra consist of a player-controlled human protagonist who employs rapid-fire rifles to destroy enemies coming from left, right, above and below. But a even popular example is.......... http://www.pulse-classics.co.uk/images/metal%20slug/metalslug_05.jpg :star::star:METAL SLUG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:star::star: http://www.the-nextlevel.com/reviews/xbox/metal-slug-3/metal-slug-3-a.jpg In LBP terms, in a run'n Gun game is when you use the "Paintanator" to destory other incoming "creatures", but needing to constantly move to survive. :star::star::star::star::star::star::star::star::s tar::star::star::star::star::star::star::star::sta r: __________________________________________________ ____________________________ I've been studying run'n gun (metal slug for example) and LBP for some time. I was wondering if it was possible to get that "Zomg! So much bullets and death! But must keep playing!" feeling in LBP. Through my study I found out a few things: Sack boy cannot jump as high as most run'gun games. Bullets tend to shoot through most objects in a scolling shooter where as in LBP cannot not. The plasma ball has a larger hit radius (even when smaller) than other scroller shooters. Those are some of the issues I'm gonna have to work on to try and get the "run'n gun" feeling into LBP. But there is one huge difference between scrollershooters and LBP. LBP HAS A Z AXIES!!!!! When playing LBP shooter levels, it always comes down to hide or wait in another layer or behind some cover and then pop out to shoot the turrent/person. This on it's own is also fun, but is not the gameplay I'm looking for to create a run'n gun. It's running and gunning... not hiding and shooting accuratley In LBP, from what I played, the Metal Gear Rex Boss Fight is probably the cloesest level to a Scrolling Shooter gameplay. No Z- Axies, and you must keep on moving to survive. Did you like this type of gameplay on the Rex Boss? (The Rex boss still lacks in the jumping side of things...) Also if you have anything to add based on Run'n Gun games or LBP please post it here. P.S I'm not here to put down any players that made Run'gun tribute levels or the hide and shoot gameplay. This is all purely for research purpoeses for my levels. It is indeed possible to do this sort of thing. Im a HUGE shmup fan. "Shmup" being the "scrolling shooter" similar to R-Type or Gradius or..... the list goes on and on. I play alot of the "bullet-hell" type shmups, such as DoDonPachi or Mushihime. Because I play so very dang many of them, my designs for things in LittleBigPlanet end up being very heavily influenced by them. So as soon as the MGS pack released, I ended up making a boss entirely based on that concept; the "bullet-hell" style patterns, the "so many bullets I can barely move" sort of idea that those used. Wanted to see if it'd work in LBP's gameplay. And it did, really. Since it did, I made numerous bosses of this type (though only one of them is enormous enough to get it's own level). And I agree.... the usual "hide-n-shoot" gameplay, in LBP, just isnt very interesting. I've seen it too many times, and it just wasnt the type of thing I was looking for when making this sort of thing. As such my stuff tends to always use only one plane (except for special sections of certain bosses that require more jumping). Anyway, two examples: YouTube - LittleBigPlanet Boss: Danmaku Rave YouTube - Little Big Planet Boss: Tetra-Vaera The first of those is "Danmaku Rave", the biggest one. An entire level just for that one boss. While that one doesnt use the paint gun.... cause at that time, I felt that the Paintinator was gonna be REALLY overused since the MGS pack had just come out, so I decided to not use it there..... but while it doesnt use that, it illustrates that this sort of thing is possible within LBP's engine. And if you notice, the hitboxes arent QUITE what they seem. The hitboxes on the bullets themselves are usually about what they look like, but it's Sackboy's hitbox that is a little odd. It's a good deal smaller than it might look! If you look at the video (or just experiment in game) you might notice that a bullet hitting him in the head doesnt do anything at all; he sort of automatically ducks under it, to a point. His actual hitbox is somewhat small, and low and centered. This is very important for making this sort of thing. That 2nd video link is a boss that actually uses the Paintinator (and doesnt shoot quite as much doom at you). There's more examples under my video listings, also. And from what I've learned in making these, making a run-n-gun LEVEL is alot easier than making a BOSS of that sort. Being that bosses like these require complicated "logic circuits", as I call them. So yeah, it can certainly be done, I think it just hasnt BEEN done very often yet. I'd love to make a level like that myself too, for that matter. I always liked games like Metal Slug and whatnot. I love a challenge, and those usually provide it. Anyway, hope that helps at least somewhat.

2009-08-23 00:04:00 Author: Bridget Posts: 334

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CCubbage I liked your Starship Trooper level, but I found it lacking a bit in enemies. Because the enemies were pretty big, you only had like 1 or 2 attacking at a time? But I liked how I'm always running forward and then retreating back to try and save myself. It added the spice into your level and I thought that was well done. I'm also sad that the Metal Slug Solid level got deleted.... I was looking through the forums and really wanted to play it :'( I've yet to check out the "Contra" series. I'll probably do that now! Bridget, thanks for the videos! Really helped! The only problem I think with Bullet Hell in LBP is that the Plasma death takes like 3 secounds of animation? It just feels too long , and eventually gets annoying when being killed 100 times and having to wait 3 secounds to respawn. Personally though, I don't like things shooting at me in the Y Axies.... it just dosn't feel good when I can't jump. P.S Isn't it cheating to hide in the corner?

2009-08-23 00:13:00 Author: snowyjoe Posts: 509

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It's a good gameplay mechanic that can make for some fun levels. Hide-then-shoot has been done in a lot of paintinator levels and can get pretty repetitive. So yeah, I'm all for run 'n' gun levels now. I might just use that mechanic in a level to keep things interesting. On the plasma balls too large/death length thing, maybe use small lines of gas to suit the shooter feeling.

2009-08-23 00:21:00 Author: persona3fan93 Posts: 155

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CCubbage I liked your Starship Trooper level, but I found it lacking a bit in enemies. Because the enemies were pretty big, you only had like 1 or 2 attacking at a time? Yeah, Starship troopers was more of an example of the run-n-gun style (but the enemies took a lot of thermo.... so not a ton of them, unfortunately). "Vertigo!" is more a true take on fast arcade gameplay (although it's a bit more like a cross between Asteroids and Tempest) And definately agree that Bridget's Danmaku Rage is fantastic - since he concentrated on a single "boss" it gave him the ability to truly get that old-school feel into the level.... but I've yet to beat that one (great stuff, though) This thread is really interesting, since I've been experimenting with classic gameplay for about 7 months.

2009-08-23 00:36:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Intresting idea persona3fan93. I'll try and play around with it.

2009-08-23 00:41:00 Author: snowyjoe Posts: 509

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There should be a 'Meh, too easy' option.

2009-08-23 00:50:00 Author: Ryutei Posts: 244

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There should be a 'Meh, too easy' option. 0.o Really? Lol If i was able to edit my polls I'll add it in Played your Splat Invanders CCubbage.... and my neck hurts from looking up too much >.< I loved the elevator part. Having enough space to move around, and seperating the level into each part is very effective. I beleive giving the player enough space is very important in a scroller shooter. I made a short level testing the difficulty of jumping over and dodging plasma balls. To my surprise most people found it pretty easy but fun. (I also got around 20 plays in 1 day... which is probably the most i ever had in a day ) It's a really rough level but gives me an idea of what is fun and what is just annoying. Check it out if you have the time. https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=t=15360

2009-08-23 01:12:00 Author: snowyjoe Posts: 509

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Could someone please help me out. I am wanting to play Tetra-Vaera and Crux Ansata but nothing comes up in the LBP search for them. Does anyone know what I would search for to find them?

2009-08-23 01:45:00 Author: Unknown User

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Did you try searching with Bridget's PSN? Bridget_

2009-08-23 01:50:00 Author: snowyjoe Posts: 509

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Yes, but the only boss she/he has is Danmaku Rave, not the ones I mentioned. Oh pooey, lol!

2009-08-23 02:02:00 Author: Unknown User

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It had been awhile since I played Danmaku Rage... went back in this morning. I made it past the first 3 parts, but now I'm DETERMINED to finish it! Fantastic classic top-down feel.

2009-08-23 12:22:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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CCubbage I liked your Starship Trooper level, but I found it lacking a bit in enemies. Because the enemies were pretty big, you only had like 1 or 2 attacking at a time? But I liked how I'm always running forward and then retreating back to try and save myself. It added the spice into your level and I thought that was well done. I'm also sad that the Metal Slug Solid level got deleted.... I was looking through the forums and really wanted to play it :'( I've yet to check out the "Contra" series. I'll probably do that now! Bridget, thanks for the videos! Really helped! The only problem I think with Bullet Hell in LBP is that the Plasma death takes like 3 secounds of animation? It just feels too long , and eventually gets annoying when being killed 100 times and having to wait 3 secounds to respawn. Personally though, I don't like things shooting at me in the Y Axies.... it just dosn't feel good when I can't jump. P.S Isn't it cheating to hide in the corner? I dunno, I think most of the death animations are a little long like that. Though the "electrified" one is the worst, you get to sit there and watch him twitch for awhile before exploding. How nice! As for things shooting from above, that's really just sort of an example. And it's just part of my own preferred style to put the boss (and it's weapons) above you. You could very easily use all of those same concepts, but put the boss on the wall or something (thus more horizontal shots). Im just used to vertical patterns from the type of games I play. Also you dont HAVE to make them as difficult as mine. Dropping the bullet count might be a good idea for most levels. I just do that because most creators dont make very difficult levels, and I love a challenge. I think the only difficulty you might run into when making an actual run-n-gun level though, is in making basic enemies. It's easy to make things like static turrets and whatnot, but if you want other things with complex movement patterns and whatnot, well, it's a total pain. Could someone please help me out. I am wanting to play Tetra-Vaera and Crux Ansata but nothing comes up in the LBP search for them. Does anyone know what I would search for to find them? Rave is the only one with a level all to itself, and that's because it ate up the entire thermo. The other bosses I've done exist as parts of other levels. Tetra-Vaera and Enduro-Dualis can both be found in the 2nd community Boss Rush stages (there's topics for that in the contests section of the board). Enduro is also in my "Temple of Trials" level (good luck reaching it though). Vaera is in "Castle of Dr. Insano". Crux Ansata isnt playable yet (despite being finished). It's for the third Boss Rush, which..... well, just kept getting delayed. Should be up soon though. In theory. The topic can again be found in the Contests section.

2009-08-23 22:28:00 Author: Bridget Posts: 334

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Rave is the only one with a level all to itself, and that's because it ate up the entire thermo. The other bosses I've done exist as parts of other levels. Tetra-Vaera and Enduro-Dualis can both be found in the 2nd community Boss Rush stages (there's topics for that in the contests section of the board). Enduro is also in my "Temple of Trials" level (good luck reaching it though). Vaera is in "Castle of Dr. Insano". Crux Ansata isnt playable yet (despite being finished). It's for the third Boss Rush, which..... well, just kept getting delayed. Should be up soon though. In theory. The topic can again be found in the Contests section. Okay, thanks a lot. And as for the good luck reaching it, I am a masachist gamer that lives for super bosses, whether it be in RPGs, shoot em ups, or what not. I too love a challenge. If you can clear the temple, then so can I. Also, your bosses have inspired me to make my own bosses similar to yours in style. One will be a side scrolling tunnel crawler kind of boss while I am also making a jet pack one. If I ever finish one like the one I've already started, I would love to have you be one of the playtesters since these kind of games you like as well and your LBP experience with this kind of boss, I figured what better a person. But I am still learning boss logic. I already got emitters down pretty well. Just the logic of the bosses themselves poses a problem but I will learn. Sorry for off topic post snowyjoe. I was just giving my reply.

2009-08-24 11:50:00 Author: Unknown User

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Yeah Bridget I'm kinda stuck on the enemies right now. 1. I can't design for crap. I don't want them to be sackpeople, because it's just been done too much before, and dosn't look original, so trying to design my own enemies... but their just a bunch of cubes right now 2. I got The enemies stacking up. To really turn up the heat, I think it's vital to have lots of enemies shooting at you.... problem is that in a Scrolling Shooter, all the bullets and enenmies seem to pass through everything EXCEPT you. Currently when i have 5 enemies in one place they tend to bunch up together and start making some sorta acrobactic pyrimad. And just become this huge target for the player.... not very challenging. I'm currently playing around with sensor switches and magnetic keys to try and stop the enemies from bunch up.... and try and make them shoot through things.... It seems hard, but i think it's possible. But like you said, stationary turrets are probably the best option in LBP.... but still not challenging.

2009-08-25 08:11:00 Author: snowyjoe Posts: 509

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Yeah Bridget I'm kinda stuck on the enemies right now. 1. I can't design for crap. I don't want them to be sackpeople, because it's just been done too much before, and dosn't look original, so trying to design my own enemies... but their just a bunch of cubes right now 2. I got The enemies stacking up. To really turn up the heat, I think it's vital to have lots of enemies shooting at you.... problem is that in a Scrolling Shooter, all the bullets and enenmies seem to pass through everything EXCEPT you. Currently when i have 5 enemies in one place they tend to bunch up together and start making some sorta acrobactic pyrimad. And just become this huge target for the player.... not very challenging. I'm currently playing around with sensor switches and magnetic keys to try and stop the enemies from bunch up.... and try and make them shoot through things.... It seems hard, but i think it's possible. But like you said, stationary turrets are probably the best option in LBP.... but still not challenging. Hmm, to adress the two points you made..... For number 1, the design of them isnt THAT important. I make big, complicated bosses of doom and levels of.... well, also of doom. BUT. My boss creations and whatnot arent much more than geometrical shapes. Even Rave, the design for that one is entirely function based. It looks the way it does, because is has to, basically. Im really bad at art. Now for number 2, having an absolutely silly number of foes on screen at once can be neat for some games..... but it ISNT totally important. Think of games of this style that were on the old NES. Megaman, or Contra, or whatever. They managed constant, chaotic action.... but if you really look at them, there's only ever so many foes on the screen at once. Mainly, due to the fact that the NES starts to get really funky when there's too many sprites bouncing around. Even something like Metroid. Most players would never notice this, but Metroid never allows more than 6 foes on the screen at once. And even then, it doesnt do that very often, because the registers for the enemies work a little strangely. Yet it sure seems like there's monsters and things just everywhere, doesnt it? What's really important is the design of everything.... the design of the level, plus the functional design of the enemies and the different attacks and movements they use, stuff like that. As for the shooting through stuff.... that's a limitation based on the function of the Plasma Balls in LBP. But again, that's where the level design comes from. Combine the right design with the right foes, and this "limitation" wont detract from the level. If I may make one suggestion though: Keep everything on one plane, for a level that has heavy plasma! This is a mistake I see alot of creators make, when using plasma at all. It can often be very hard to tell just which plane the plasma balls are on.... so you might THINK you're behind one, and it wont hit you, and then..... pop! It might seem like another big restriction, but again, proper level design will make it so it never detracts from the level as a whole. And really, it just makes for a higher quality level, with less "cheap" deaths. If you're going to have sections with more than one plane, try to have the enemies in that section have attacks that dont involve just plasma. Just because it's that style of level doesnt mean they HAVE to actually fire at you. All sorts of creative attacks are possible. Anyway, I think the whole thing is a great idea; keep at it.

2009-08-26 06:50:00 Author: Bridget Posts: 334

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