Archive: 54 posts

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So I started outlines and prototypes for a new project and it turns out I'm gonna need a lot of logic going on - my circuit diagram for a basic elevator concept covered half a sheet of A4 and I still need some failure safety in there ). The level is also largely gonna take place on 1-2 layers, so I was thinking: have the logic on the back thin and thick layers and give out a sticker at the end that can be used to remove the back wall in key locations to display all of the logic in the level. Anyone think this is a worthwhile / interesting thing to do? The only problem I see is that using very compact (component count) logic and with all my winches made invisible, it's not gonna look all that impressive / not gonna be clear what's going on...

2009-08-22 16:09:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Wanna see my switches? XD That sounds soooo wrong, but anyway that sounds like an epic idea, i say go for it

2009-08-23 01:29:00 Author: Comet Wolf Posts: 99

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I say yes, as long as it won't limit you in terms of layers and such. But it sounds like a fantastic idea.

2009-08-23 02:56:00 Author: Trevor Posts: 78

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Absolutely, yes I do. What does your elevator do to make it so logic heavy? It better out-do the one I came up with or you'll sadly disappoint me.

2009-08-23 03:20:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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If the level won't be using the back layers I'd say that would be pretty interesting to look at. As long as you won't be limited in any way, go for it.

2009-08-23 03:21:00 Author: brnxblze Posts: 1318

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As long as your level is still epic, do it. I love seeing the complicated stuff people can do on LBP.

2009-08-23 03:21:00 Author: alexbull_uk Posts: 1287

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I love seeing the complicated stuff people can do on LBP. Couldn't help myself. http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1160/part3logic.jpg Edit: looking back, it's all so messy! Oh, how much I've learned in the past couple of months!

2009-08-23 03:40:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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What does your elevator do to make it so logic heavy? It better out-do the one I came up with or you'll sadly disappoint me. It goes up and down. And then it goes up and down less. It doesn't even have doors lol. As I said most of the gameplay won't require more than two layers and logic at most will take up one thin and one thick layer. I'm thinking probably dissolve 3rd back thin layer and emit glass in it's place, so all the logic would be in a display cabinet of sorts. It's just the invisible connectors that get me, I don't want them invisible for the showcase version, but I do want the invisible normally (cluncky winch sounds all over the place just won't do). Maybe I should have all of the logic attached to pistons and slide it into place when the sticker switch activates? So it would be far enough away to be silent normally, but moves into the cabinet later... This is getting complicated...

2009-08-23 10:44:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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wow that's some logic you've got there How long did that take you?

2009-08-23 11:22:00 Author: elzbenz Posts: 86

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Heck yeah! This sounds pretty cool and VERY ambitious. but it'll make playtesting a breeze, you can see whats going wrong with your logic easy peasy Is it possible that you might be able to add some magic mouths to the logic? So when you unlock the components, you also unlock mouths which tell you wth is going on? Either way, i look forward to the logic lesson in 4 months when you complete this ;p

2009-08-24 20:22:00 Author: Burnvictim42 Posts: 3322

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Couldn't help myself. http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1160/part3logic.jpg Edit: looking back, it's all so messy! Oh, how much I've learned in the past couple of months! Oh my lord. How cant the switch's not mess up with each other?

2009-08-24 20:52:00 Author: Adam9001 Posts: 744

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@adam: Angle sensors. Edit: looking back, it's all so messy! Oh, how much I've learned in the past couple of months! Lol, just saw this. Yeah I can't help but think it all looks a bit convoluted for what it does. It's laid out very neatly though, you should see the behind the scenes on setbacks, just switches dotted around everywhere - I have no idea what most of them do (and luckily I don't need to - they all work, and that's what counts ) Yeah it would be nice for me to do all my testing with the logic on screen, rather than have to keep on swapping between play and create modes. At the moment I'm thinking that to allow all the connectors to be visible, I'm probably going to have the entire back wall of the level shift into place on a piston. So the logic is held off screen, but is moved into place when the sticker switch is activated! Hmmm, interesting.... mouths. The mouths would be tricky to implement as I'd have to have additional logic to activate them ONLY when they are in position... or emit them or something. Either way it's a pain. I am considering having the logic boxes all annotated with stickers, but again, rather ambitious and may not work behind glass. I'll have to see if I can do away with the glass I suppose. I've started sketching up the puzzles on paper so far and I actually found the original concept rooms on my moon - I thought they'd been corrupted months ago.

2009-08-24 20:53:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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you should see the behind the scenes on setbacks, just switches dotted around everywhere - I have no idea what most of them do (and luckily I don't need to - they all work, and that's what counts ) I make loads of comments on logic-heavy levels. A couple magic mouths on some flat dark matter explaining what everything does in that area. Helps immensely if you have to make major revisions or if something goes terribly wrong.

2009-08-24 21:19:00 Author: BSprague Posts: 2325

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Great idea, BSprague. I don't have the foresight to do these kind of things. It's already becoming a problem in a level I started working on. I told myself it wasn't going to be logic heavy - *sigh* - yeah right... @rtm - don't put it behind glass, just block it with invis DM where necessary, or just put it high enough that the player can't jump into it. Remember, it takes a thick plane under sacky's feet to trigger a plane shift. If you just put a thin layer 2 units high, he can't jump behind it...

2009-08-24 21:34:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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@Bsprague, you're probably unsuprised to learn that I don't have enough thermo for extra magic mouths on that level. It's a mess because nothing was planned really. Plus I now have a cool new logic organisation method, which makes like a lot easier don't put it behind glass, just block it with invis DM where necessary, or just put it high enough that the player can't jump into it. Remember, it takes a thick plane under sacky's feet to trigger a plane shift. If you just put a thin layer 2 units high, he can't jump behind it... Can't block it with invisible DM if I'm going to move it *subsitutes DM for rubber* - ah yes, good plan comphy. Anyway, I can't use the spread out invisible materials things though (part of the "just say 'No!' to glitches campaign". I had forgotten about extending the thin layer to prevent switching though. Now I actually think about it, the only thing that needs to go on two layers are timing wheels, and I don't think I need more than one or two of them... Oooooh I wonder if I can make pretend wires going from the onscreen switches to the logic boxes... I do wish there was a "clear glass" material - that would still have a bit of sheen, but not distort what was behind it at all. switchGeek mode is clearly going to be more effort than the actual level, isn't it?

2009-08-24 21:44:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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What's your cool new logic organization? I must know! (Lol, at our opposing methods to spell organization/organisation)

2009-08-24 21:49:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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@Bsprague, you're probably unsuprised to learn that I don't have enough thermo for extra magic mouths on that level. It's a mess because nothing was planned really. Plus I now have a cool new logic organisation method, which makes like a lot easier Hopefully your new system works for you then. If you still wanted to comment things though, what you could do is copy the level, remove everything that isn't completely necessary or doesn't need comments, and then add in your comments. When you come across something you need to fix or change or just need to know what it does, you can jump over to the skeleton/comment level and find out what it does.

2009-08-24 21:59:00 Author: BSprague Posts: 2325

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Don't get me started: I'm happy dealing with differences between Anglicised and Americanised English spellings, but it does my nut in that GE insist that my work computer puts Z's all over my documents The new logic organisation is nothing special. It's just the fact that latest generation of AND, OR, RS and P switches are all one linear moving part. I've just taken to sitting them in a U-shape of dark matter and annotating on paper. Notihng special, but it's very neat and compact, I'll post pics later - I think it will appeal to your OCD If you still wanted to comment things though, what you could do is copy the level, remove everything that isn't completely necessary or doesn't need comments, and then add in your comments. When you come across something you need to fix or change or just need to know what it does, you can jump over to the skeleton/comment level and find out what it does. Now that is nifty. Although I still don't think setbacks was organised enough for that even. It really is a mess behind the scenes!

2009-08-24 22:01:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Now that is nifty. Although I still don't think setbacks was organised enough for that even. It really is a mess behind the scenes! It sounds like my LittleBigMemory level. I felt like I needed to construct it or all my ideas and blueprints (which were written down) would disappear. So I made it quickly, and everything is all over the place. There are a couple of really large structures to hold the actual notes and another to hold the answer checking section of the system. It's all spread out over the bottom right fourth of the level. Then there are little bits of logic gates strewn about and several large masses of logic clumped together. Then I have little blue squares all around these pieces, so if I need to know what they do, I just open their tweak menu and check what the comment says. This was immensely helpful when I had to tear a hole in the system to add in a timer.

2009-08-24 22:08:00 Author: BSprague Posts: 2325

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Ok, I need to say something that's been bothering my for a while, lol... Why does everyone insist on making their multi-AND gates in a u-shaped or hollow chunk of DM? Why not just turn it 90 degrees and let it hang. Then it's not fighting gravity, so you don't need lateral support. It just makes the most sense to me... (Granted, I use my newly favorite inverted or switch - see below, because I rarely need more than 4 inputs. Even If I need more, I just wire up two or more 4-way AND gates together. I only do this because it's faster to make them from scratch. One day, I'll finally get around to just capturing them so I don't have to make a new one every time, but I'm just weird) My AND gates (invert middle, keys on each arm): ......[] .......| .......| []---[]---[] .......| .......| ......[] They appeal to my OCD with their symmetry.

2009-08-24 22:39:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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Why does everyone insist on making their multi-AND gates in a u-shaped or hollow chunk of DM? Why not just turn it 90 degrees and let it hang. Then it's not fighting gravity, so you don't need lateral support. It just makes the most sense to me... Ahhh, I did think the same thing and before I started with the winches I was using the inverted OR (deMorgan's Theorum FTW), but, check this out: http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1161&d=1251151250 Right, the U shape is because AND gates connect to the left, OR gates connect to the right and S-Rs connect to both sides. I haven't done a P switch yet, but I think they will connect to the left, with the mag switch on the left - so they are visually distinct. Having a single U reduces the object count and vertex count overall - if need be I could reduce vertex count further with triangles but it's ugly. That image, if I describe it as "normal" gates, consists of: 3 x two input OR 4 x two input AND 1 x three input AND 4 x delay circuits 2 x set reset latches A shed load of inverters Plus the two pistons at the bottom just do variable brightness on a light That's a lot of logic in a small space. Annotating on paper is good also because I can just number from top to bottom with a quick expression: g || b => m M && bottom => fastRaise M && top => fastLower m && bottom => slowRaise m && mid => slowLower etc...

2009-08-24 23:08:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Wow, very nice. Now this appeals to my OCD! I get what you mean about the U-shape now - I was confused before. I'm totally going to steal this! Is it sad that I got the deMorgan's reference? La la la.... not p and q --> not p or not q, la la la...

2009-08-24 23:19:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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I thought it might, the pistons all line up and moev in parrallel and left is off and right is on... Naturally I'm the least organised person ever, but when I put my mind to it.... Did you look at the wikipedia page on De Morgan? - it's got all kindsa mathsy nonsense all over it

2009-08-24 23:29:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Did you look at the wikipedia page on De Morgan? - it's got all kindsa mathsy nonsense all over it I did now... I get this stuff: http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/5/c/4/5c483793247d578bff75a1fd76c47981.png "Not p or q if and only if not p or not q" * http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/c/6/c/c6c89d1c500ac9c5bcfe3b28f3239f9e.png "Not p and q if and only if not p or not q" http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/d/d/1/dd147d9cacda572a0f240f2b090e1a90.png This is pretty much the same thing in a different way, so to refer to Rings and Set Theory. But this is just jibberish Edit: I get it now. It says the same thing, but with different notation and extends it to include any number of sets, not just two: http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/5/4/0/540bd6431025fa5e573de1d938e48ae6.png The rest is just proofs of the above, using inclusion principles. Wikipedia is terrible at explaining math stuff. I prefer Wolfram Mathworld (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/). Whew, that was a fun little refresher. That was just in case you were wondering, which I know you weren't... (you're welcome, ) * Technically, "The negation of p and q implies, and is implied by, the negation of p or the negation of q."

2009-08-24 23:42:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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Couldn't help myself. http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1160/part3logic.jpg Edit: looking back, it's all so messy! Oh, how much I've learned in the past couple of months! Wow... that is complex. I've seen more complex stuff than that though in this connect 4 level. I'll search for the video now. EDIT: I can't find it but I remember you could barely see the level because of the amount of wires in one place.

2009-08-25 01:20:00 Author: S-A-S--G-U-N-R Posts: 1606

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@rtm's awesome organising - Whoa! That looks really awesome! Next time I go on LBP Ima have to try that Can you at least explain to me why you use winches? Is it better? And how to you make and, or, etc. switches like that? Someday you will have to make a LBGeek Book, just for all kinds of logic, math, weights, speeds, gravity, etc. (And with water coming soon, It will get even more tough )

2009-08-25 01:50:00 Author: goldenclaw13 Posts: 224

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Can you at least explain to me why you use winches? Is it better? And how to you make and, or, etc. switches like that? In many ways, yes. It hinges on the idea that a strong winch will overpower a weak piston. For example, to make the AND gate with a piston and a winch, you would make it similar to how one of them is shown in rtm's picture. They would have the same settings, except that the strength of the piston is 5 and the winch is 10. If you trigger just the piston to extend, it will not be able to overpower the winch. If you trigger just the winch, it will not push outwards (and the block will be held in place by the piston). When both are triggered to extend, though, the block with extend, thereby triggering any mag key switches you may have. Invert the directions of both and you have yourself an OR. Obviously, that is a very quick run-down... Someday you will have to make a LBPGeek Book No comment

2009-08-25 02:40:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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Ooh, sounds fiesty! And someone start a LBGeek project, I'm sooooo in

2009-08-25 04:35:00 Author: goldenclaw13 Posts: 224

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@rtm's awesome organising - Whoa! That looks really awesome! Next time I go on LBP Ima have to try that Can you at least explain to me why you use winches? Is it better? I use winches for 3 reasons: 1. Because it uses up less space, physically 2. Because it's good on thermo. 3. Because you can combine multiple switches into one. 4. Because it baffles others and thus makes me feel important - j/k Think about this: I can have a 16 input AND gate that only has 1 moving part. it's neat, relatively small and switches in 0.1s. Also, the set-reset switches in the picture above contain 1 set input and two reset inputs. The set input includes a time delay. One of the reset inputs includes a time delay and then the delayed and non-delayed reset inputs are OR'd before going into the Set - Reset. All this is built into one moving part. Wenches rock my world

2009-08-25 09:25:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Thanks guys for the explanations. I am really starting to understand logic Except for p and rs switches or whatever you call them - they sound so complicated that whenever I try to read how to do them, my mind explodes... I'm guessing rs stands for reset - set, because rtm was talking about this is in the last post...And I can guess what a toggle switch is... Argh! Mind boggling!

2009-08-25 15:46:00 Author: goldenclaw13 Posts: 224

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Yes, I completely agree with you on the glass. I've been struggling to find an alternative to the ice looking default glass. However, I'm not quite sure I agree with you on the fact that winches use less of the thermometer than pistons. The reason I say this is, a winch, no matter what the strength, will always have a bit of non-linear code built in, because it can easily be affected by other objects/players. A stiff, 10 strength piston on the other hand, would be almost completely linear, as most objects it may collide with along it's path it will simply destroy. Just my theory anyways, from a development type of view, I may be completely wrong.

2009-08-25 16:43:00 Author: Trevor Posts: 78

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I think they are dealing with different thermometers. The advantage of doing it this way is having only one moving material part. I think you'd be hard pressed to fill your piston/winch thermometer before the material one...

2009-08-25 16:56:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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The reduced number of moving parts AND less objects total AND less vertices is definately a bonus. Also as far as I can tell from my testing, the thermo calculation makes no differentiation between winches, pistons, stiff pistons etc - although I wouldn't put too much credibility into that test. I would put a lot of faith into testing that demonstrates that my logic designs are significantly lower thermo than the conventional methods though. Consider the following. Take an example such as typical OR gates, where each input has a separate piece of material with a mag key on it - each of those contributes to shapes thermo, moving objects thermo, collected objects thermo - my designs only require 1 moving object and one mag key, regardless of number of inputs. Then, consider the advantages of implied ORing that I described above - a set-reset with 5 OR'd reset signals just needs extra winches, not extra pistons and shapes and mag keys and mag switches - multiple thermos reduced as a result. The winch itself doesn't save you thermo, it's what can be achieved by capitalising on the properties of the winch in creative ways in order to give decent savings across multiple thermos. Accross a level with a large amount of logic, the savings really do add up, especially if you have a good thermo management scheme that looks to maximise as many thermos as possible.

2009-08-25 17:08:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Yeah, that makes sense now, I wasn't thinking in terms of the number of objects, thanks for explaining it.

2009-08-25 17:15:00 Author: Trevor Posts: 78

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@adam: Angle sensors. Lol, just saw this. Yeah I can't help but think it all looks a bit convoluted for what it does. It's laid out very neatly though, you should see the behind the scenes on setbacks, just switches dotted around everywhere - I have no idea what most of them do (and luckily I don't need to - they all work, and that's what counts ) Yeah it would be nice for me to do all my testing with the logic on screen, rather than have to keep on swapping between play and create modes. At the moment I'm thinking that to allow all the connectors to be visible, I'm probably going to have the entire back wall of the level shift into place on a piston. So the logic is held off screen, but is moved into place when the sticker switch is activated! Hmmm, interesting.... mouths. The mouths would be tricky to implement as I'd have to have additional logic to activate them ONLY when they are in position... or emit them or something. Either way it's a pain. I am considering having the logic boxes all annotated with stickers, but again, rather ambitious and may not work behind glass. I'll have to see if I can do away with the glass I suppose. I've started sketching up the puzzles on paper so far and I actually found the original concept rooms on my moon - I thought they'd been corrupted months ago. I think that the cabinet surrounded by gas idea is cool. The cooler thing is if people might actually understand the purpose of the logic. You may sticker the dark matter accordingly to the operation that is triggered

2009-08-26 06:52:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112

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I think that the cabinet surrounded by gas idea is cool.Well I've had a thought about the presentation and I think I've got something pretty nifty worked out for that. I'm just gonna have everything on the then layer in front of the back thick layer - this way timing wheels can be thin layer, bolted onto the back thick layer and there is zero possibility of planeshifting (actually this was quite obvious when I thought about it properly. The cooler thing is if people might actually understand the purpose of the logic. I can't label every component, but I can segregate the devices and label a group of gates as doing a certain function...

2009-08-26 10:18:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Well I've had a thought about the presentation and I think I've got something pretty nifty worked out for that. I'm just gonna have everything on the then layer in front of the back thick layer - this way timing wheels can be thin layer, bolted onto the back thick layer and there is zero possibility of planeshifting (actually this was quite obvious when I thought about it properly. I can't label every component, but I can segregate the devices and label a group of gates as doing a certain function... Yeah, that can actually work and the effect can be cool, I think to aardsy levels about the light/colours, have you played them? I think so, if not, go give them a look.

2009-08-26 10:46:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112

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I don't know if I have... I take it aardsy is the PSN name - rings a bell. What are the levels called?

2009-08-26 11:10:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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I don't remember (a problem since I played them no more than 3 days ago...), anyway they have light/colours in the name. If you search @aardsy you'll find them for sure. (he's one of the GOTY creators)

2009-08-26 11:18:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112

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Erm... I'll just nod my head and agree. Nice idea rtm! Go for it! I'm horrible at logic. Absolutely HORRIBLE.

2009-08-26 11:41:00 Author: BlackHairedGoon Posts: 160

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Couldn't help myself. http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1160/part3logic.jpg Edit: looking back, it's all so messy! Oh, how much I've learned in the past couple of months! AAACK!! You ever think of labeling that stuff? Possibly since I am a documentation freak when writing code, but I always use the goofy letter stickers on pieces of cardboard held by DM to label my logic. Might sound like overkill to some, but I don't want to attempt to remember what all the bits are a month or so later as well as attempt to trace wires if I want to change something. Thanks for sharing! Oh and to answer the question by rtm223... sure!! Please do! I love to see other folks logic stuff.

2009-08-26 13:22:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383

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Well it's pretty much decided, I just need to iron out the details really. There are going to be a few bits of on-screen logic connectors etc that I will need to keep invisible for aesthetic reasons during normal play mode (winches on lifts etc), but all the offscreen logic will be moved into place with everything visible and labelled in the alternate mode. I'm also going to look into dissolving some areas so logic that can't move (demitters etc., which rely upon location remaining constant) can be uncovered. Should be fun. I think the level is also going to have a race mode. Potentially home-made race gates as I hate the standard ones with their ticking noises, but then that sucks for multiplayer. Who knows....

2009-08-26 13:32:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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I think the level is also going to have a race mode. Potentially home-made race gates as I hate the standard ones with their ticking noises, but then that sucks for multiplayer. Who knows.... Don't kill yourself...the race noise isn't that bad.

2009-08-26 13:43:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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It really is though. I'm gonna rate your new level 1 star for having a race gate in it as soon as you release it... Mwahahahahaha! The custom gate is a stripped down version of the "pay out bubbles based upon how much fuel you have left" device that I made for littleBigLunarLander (unpublished). Also I don't have to consider the trigger the start gate but don't trigger the previous end gate scenario (easilly fixed I know but still) Or there might just be no race mode.

2009-08-26 13:47:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Ha ha. What, do you just have emitters hooked up through AND gates that are deactivated after a certain time? That seems like the logical way to do it, but I have a feeling you went overboard with it, making some uber-device...

2009-08-26 14:00:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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A timer that moves slowly, based upon P switch at the start point. Then when you reach the complete point, it moves 10x faster (strong wench) and also activates an emiter spitting out bubbles at a rate of 1 every 0.1s until the timer completes. You get 1 bubble per second left on the clock but don't have to wait for the clock to complete at normal speed

2009-08-26 14:05:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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A timer that moves slowly, based upon P switch at the start point. Then when you reach the complete point, it moves 10x faster (strong wench) and also activates an emiter spitting out bubbles at a rate of 1 every 0.1s until the timer completes. You get 1 bubble per second left on the clock but don't have to wait for the clock to complete at normal speed Very nice, and very tricky. Seems to be low enough on thermo...

2009-08-26 14:09:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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The reduced number of moving parts AND less objects total AND less vertices is definately a bonus. Also as far as I can tell from my testing, the thermo calculation makes no differentiation between winches, pistons, stiff pistons etc - although I wouldn't put too much credibility into that test. I would put a lot of faith into testing that demonstrates that my logic designs are significantly lower thermo than the conventional methods though. Consider the following. Take an example such as typical OR gates, where each input has a separate piece of material with a mag key on it - each of those contributes to shapes thermo, moving objects thermo, collected objects thermo - my designs only require 1 moving object and one mag key, regardless of number of inputs. Then, consider the advantages of implied ORing that I described above - a set-reset with 5 OR'd reset signals just needs extra winches, not extra pistons and shapes and mag keys and mag switches - multiple thermos reduced as a result. The winch itself doesn't save you thermo, it's what can be achieved by capitalising on the properties of the winch in creative ways in order to give decent savings across multiple thermos. Accross a level with a large amount of logic, the savings really do add up, especially if you have a good thermo management scheme that looks to maximise as many thermos as possible. i would be using winches for all my gates but i dont like the idea of two things fighting against eachother. Resently though, i have been using them to create things that act like flipper pistons that can be set to directional. e.g: if you want something to go out slow when you flick a switch but come back in fast when the switch is deactivated. I suppose i will have to face my fear one day as Im obsessed with efficiency

2009-08-26 15:38:00 Author: Altair1911 Posts: 15

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Resently though, i have been using them to create things that act like flipper pistons that can be set to directional. e.g: if you want something to go out slow when you flick a switch but come back in fast when the switch is deactivated. We call those quick-reset timers, and they are quick useful, no? Also, from all the work rtm and myself have been doing with these combinations, there don't seem to be any reliability issues with them "fighting". Feel free to keep working with them! There are quite efficient, aren't they?

2009-08-26 15:56:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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Yup. You force everything into 1-dimensional motion using a stiff piston and then it's just a case of adding up positive and negative forces. It seems to be completely deterministic and behave exactly as you would expect. Everything is triggered using directional signals, which seem to be the most reliable in the game as well.

2009-08-26 16:03:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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I've already started using these new fangled gates in a remake of an earlier level of mine. I just played through the original and was shocked at how bad it was compared to how i remember it being thanks to all of you for abnormaly smart

2009-08-26 21:52:00 Author: Altair1911 Posts: 15

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Couldn't help myself. http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1160/part3logic.jpg Edit: looking back, it's all so messy! Oh, how much I've learned in the past couple of months! Oh my God! That's incredible! Wouldn't it be funny if all it did was spawn one point bubble?

2009-08-26 23:55:00 Author: alexbull_uk Posts: 1287

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Ok, I need to say something that's been bothering my for a while, lol... Why does everyone insist on making their multi-AND gates in a u-shaped or hollow chunk of DM? Why not just turn it 90 degrees and let it hang. Then it's not fighting gravity, so you don't need lateral support. It just makes the most sense to me... (Granted, I use my newly favorite inverted or switch - see below, because I rarely need more than 4 inputs. Even If I need more, I just wire up two or more 4-way AND gates together. I only do this because it's faster to make them from scratch. One day, I'll finally get around to just capturing them so I don't have to make a new one every time, but I'm just weird) They appeal to my OCD with their symmetry. haha! my OCD is so bad that I'm afraid to turn the grid off! I even go as far as to emit chkpts sometimes so i can make it fit on a 3X3 medium grid! anyway I use 1 big DM square, 1 big Dissolve square and invert everything. Inverted switches are awesome! i even line up all my logic to fit on the grid, and use only whole round numbers for piston lengths (.5 when taking point of piston attachment into account - .5 gap from 0 point to DM wall)

2009-08-30 19:24:00 Author: miltonTPS Posts: 126

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Don't fear turning grid mode off! It was the best decision I ever made. Knowing how to effectively use both is key (as is using the corner editor, which can still be used in grid mode).

2009-08-30 21:43:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

Posts: 1077139    Threads: 69970    Members: 9661    Archive-Date: 2019-01-19

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