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Ghosts

Archive: 86 posts

Anyone else believe in ghosts, seen ghosts? If you have a story that isn't crap can you share it, i'm curious,I'm from Bucks County, Pennsylvania, which is notorious for ghosts and me and my friends go ghost hunting we have just bought a camcorder and will film are adventures, i'll post links to them in my blog, but i'm curious who else is a believer?2009-08-17 21:44:00

Author:
Frank-the-Bunny
Posts: 1246

Wait, Bucks County? wow, you're like 30 minutes from me... O-o

... Are you in quakertown? D:

RUN FO THE HILLZ!

...

As for me, well, my dad and step mom are >_< they live in Quakertown, and take tons of trips to Gettysburg for this reason- and also cause my dad is a history buff >_>. As for me... eh. :/		2009-08-17 21:47:00

Author:
RockSauron
Posts: 10882

geez I remember my mothers trip there. She's a supernatural,crime nut. Watching Law and Order, A haunting almost 24/7...trips to various haunted places...... Now I still think its a mystery as to if there are ghosts or not. but my mothers addiction drives me nuts2009-08-17 21:58:00

Author:
JKthree
Posts: 1125

Darkness falls across the land
The midnight hour is close at hand
Creatures crawl in search of blood
To terrorize y'alls neighborhood

The foulest stench is in the air
The funk of forty thousand years
And grizzly ghouls from every tomb
Are closing in to seal your doom

And though you fight to stay alive
Your body starts to shiver
For no mere mortal can resist
The evil of the thriller

/moonwalks		2009-08-17 22:23:00

Author:
Syroc
Posts: 3193

I used to have a loud AC in my attic.

I told my freinds it was the ghost of my dead cat (because it sounded like LOUD purring) and my freinds believed me.
2009-08-18 04:55:00

Author:
TheMarvelousHat
Posts: 542

Ghost, its just all in you mind man, they do not exist, y would they?2009-08-18 12:20:00

Author:
Dexist
Posts: 570

i beleave in ghost and they are mmy beggist fear 2009-08-18 14:53:00

Author:
Unknown User

Personally, I'm not sure that what people call ghosts are in fact ghosts. However, I am sure that around the world every day there are many incidents of unexplained phenomena. I don't claim to be an expert or anything, I just think there's an explanation out there somewhere, we just don't know it yet.

Anyway, about ghost stories and whatnot. My mum is into ghosts; she watches that Ghost Hunters show on SciFi (I'm sorry, SyFy) and stuff like that. When she was younger (probably around my age or less, I don't remember right now) the house she lived in had some really crazy stuff going on. Now, I'm just going by what she's telling me, but apparently the house was haunted by what is called a poltergeist by people who believe in such things. Basically, it's a ghost with malicious intentions. Apparently, they would hear footsteps, doors would open, and one time a picture or a candlestick or something actually flew across the room towards my grandmother. Crazy, huh?

Like I said, I'm sure there's an explanation other then "some dude died there and didn't want anyone else to live there" or whatever people say for why ghosts haunt places. I don't know what the heck such an explanation would be, but I'm sure there is one. Call me a skeptic.		2009-08-18 15:15:00

Author:
dandygandy2704
Posts: 1002

I don't believe in hosts but a big rat scared the heck outta me yesterday! *Screamed like a girl and hides in the corner*2009-08-18 15:26:00

Author:
KQuinn94Z
Posts: 1758

I don't believe in hosts but a big rat scared the heck outta me yesterday! *Screamed like a girl and hides in the corner*

you forgot rule 2 of the humans (if its scarry kill it )		2009-08-18 15:45:00

Author:
Unknown User

No I couldn't what happened was I went over the wall at the back of my house to retrieve a ball and the little thing came out from behind me and ran into a hedge.... I started trying t throw rocks at it.... I failed.2009-08-18 15:57:00

Author:
KQuinn94Z
Posts: 1758

I'm actually from pennsylvania, too. I'm about an hour from Quakertown. :O

Judging from my character that I play as in littlebigplanet, I think it's pretty much a give in that I believe in ghosts.

i saw a ghost once in my life, and it was pretty terrifying. I was over my friend's house and I went to get something from her fridge. I turned into the other room and there was a man standing there looking at me. He looked like he was going up the stairs and I startled him. At first I thought either someone was in the house with us, or it was her dad. The front door was locked though, and we were the only ones in the house. I never was able to explain it, but I know it was scary!		2009-08-23 03:32:00

Author:
xkappax
Posts: 2569

I do not believe.2009-08-23 04:40:00

Author:
mrsupercomputer
Posts: 1335

i belive in ghosts! first iv had paranormal experience.. with good stuffs.. and bad stuffs.. (named portelgeize) something like that i dont remember... it was long time ago i was a victim of a "portelgeize".... thats all i can say....2009-08-23 09:40:00

Author:
Joey
Posts: 758

I don't believe.

I'm sure a lot of strange things have been witnessed, but they're more likely to be tricks of the mind/light/environment. It's not often you hear of ghosts being seen in the middle of the day in full sunlight.

I remember one Christmas Eve when I was a kid, I woke up in the middle of the night and was convinced Father Christmas was in my room. I was actually really frightened and didn't want him to find me awake, so desperately tried to get back to sleep. It was only when the sun came up the next morning that I realised what I'd thought was Santa, was just my brother's presents on the end of his bed making a bit of a man shape lol. I would have bet my life it was him the night before. 		2009-08-23 11:14:00

Author:
Kiminski
Posts: 545

Everything is inconclusive.

More scientific testing is needed.

Move along civilian.		2009-08-23 11:19:00

Author:
Astrosimi
Posts: 2046

Everything is inconclusive.

More scientific testing is needed.

Move along civilian.

whant reseach you wil get it
1:Find on internet a house where somone is murdert or suicided
2:Go there Along in The Middel of The Night and Stay Up The night

You wil get there your time of your life :arg:		2009-08-23 12:03:00

Author:
Unknown User

I'm a non-believer myself.

But, I do have strange story to tell. One night, when I shared a room with my brother, we were lying in our beds just talking about random stuff. Then, under my brother's bed in the corner right against the wall, was the strangest sound we had ever heard. It sounded like a loud breath, like a sudden gasp for air. We both heard it. My brother shot out of his bed almost instantly and came to my side of the room. After 30 minutes of building up my brother's courage and telling him it was nothing to be scared of, he finally went to bed, although he wasn't so comfortable.

We checked under his bed for anything that could've been the source of the sound, but he keeps nothing under his bed. No TV's or anything like that were on in our house at the time. Everyone else was asleep.

I don't know why we heard that sound, but I'm not calling it a ghost because I don't know.		2009-08-23 13:25:00

Author:
TheJollyRajah
Posts: 466

It may have been a rodent of the most common variety?

I have never believed in ghosts myself. The city in which I reside(Edinburgh) is steeped in ghoulish and ghastly tales - something which our tourist industry still continues to flourish on - but I have never encountered anything so out of the ordinary that it has become completely indescribable. Sight and sound are also probably the least trustworthy of our senses; especially if your mind is already overlfowing with preconceptions. :eek:		2009-08-23 16:00:00

Author:
deadmensboots
Posts: 54

Now if only Dan Akroyd was here....2009-08-23 17:24:00

Author:
Zwollie
Posts: 2173

whant reseach you wil get it
1:Find on internet a house where somone is murdert or suicided
2:Go there Along in The Middel of The Night and Stay Up The night

You wil get there your time of your life :arg:
Generally the things you experience during that time are all in your head.		2009-08-23 17:28:00

Author:
Arkei
Posts: 1432

First off, no, I do not believe in ghosts.

Secondly, I wanted to put up a you-tube link here. The relevant portion starts one minute in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fricharddawkins.net%2Farticle%2C3 700%2COpen-mindedness%2CYouTube---QualiaSoup&feature=player_embedded#t=24

Thirdly, I would like to point out that such "paranormal" experiences have been recreated in controlled conditions merely by applying magnetic forces to a specific part of one's temporal lobe.

People "see" and "talk to" various forces all the time. Isn't it odd though how it's always the Hindus that commune with Ganesha though, or the Christians who feel the presence of Jesus. How ghost-enthusiasts always find ghosts? There's not a rush of Hindus who go through meditative states having encounters with Jesus, for example, it's always their own personal iconographic figures they "encounter". Everything would seem to point out that's what's going on here is simple temporal lobe activity. So no matter what you experience, first hand, personal, subjective experience is actually a horrible form of 'evidence'.

So yes, if I wanted to "see a ghost", that would actually be rather easy to recreate given the right tools. However, that wouldn't convince me, because I know at least enough about my own brain to realize that what I "experience" isn't the real world, it's signals interpreted through an incredibly complex, imperfect organ set up to immediately identify stimuli as perceivable and relate-able forces in order for me to react to them, and enough about probability to understand that my subject experience is more likely related to a phenomenon going on within my temporal lobe than a phenomenon involving ethereal, extradimensional psychic imprints analogous and parallel to beings of intelligence existing functionally despite lack of those physical constructs that gave them function.

Occam's razor has to come in at some point.		2009-08-23 17:48:00

Author:
Jagrevi
Posts: 1154

Well, I'm still going to believe in ghosts and paranormal things. Life's more fun that way! 2009-08-23 21:12:00

Author:
xkappax
Posts: 2569

Well, I'm still going to believe in ghosts and paranormal things. Life's more fun that way!

lolz ,,,,,,,,		2009-08-23 21:19:00

Author:
Unknown User

i think not all sights are real, but there are defiantly forces beyond our understanding2009-08-23 22:09:00

Author:
Frank-the-Bunny
Posts: 1246

I'm wish xKappax

It just makes life more interesting to believe in paranormal things 		2009-08-23 22:19:00

Author:
Dexiro
Posts: 2100

Personally i'm skeptical and agnostic to this questions.

Fact are that THERE IS stuff, call it ghosts or whatever, that we don't explain so i'm obviously open to any explanation that can make sense.

But with the little knowledge we have I really wouldn't assume they exist and I really wouldn't assume they wouldn't.

Thing is, the one that "believes" in ghost, most of the time, had some unexplainable experience or is of a personality style that is open-minded to that or a dreamer. The one that doesn't believe in ghosts is more often than not the rational type that didn't live through those inexplicable experiences.

Personally, I don't "believe" in anything and I take position on stuff when I have enough conclusive info. Right now with Ghosts we really need more info. Seriously.

.		2009-08-23 23:42:00

Author:
RangerZero
Posts: 3901

I've never seen a ghost or heard a ghost or anything, so no. I'm open to the possibility, though. I don't think they are the spirits of people, though. Something else...2009-08-24 00:01:00

Author:
qrtda235566
Posts: 3664

Well, I'm still going to believe in ghosts and paranormal things. Life's more fun that way!

See, it's statements like this that are what raise eyebrows.

If you look at the evidence and conclude that ghosts exist, then by all means, believe what you conclude, however that's not what you're saying here.

If you conclude that no, ghosts do not exist, but you would rather behave as though they did, there is also an arguable logic behind that, but that's not what you're saying here either.

If I'm to take these words at face value, you are claiming the ability to *choose* what you actually *believe*. In other words, self delusion. The ability to look at a red crayon and convince yourself it's blue, for example.

The fact that I hear this kind of language regularly is scary on all sorts of Orwellian levels. I have to assume you ACTUALLY mean the second, that you do not believe but would choose to profess a belief to attain some level of satisfaction.

In any case, I would disagree both that "life is more fun" when you apply supernatural answers - as the true causes behind phenomena can be fascinating and fill one with a sense of awe at the structure of things and one's place in it, and also, I would argue that quite often understanding the nature of the world around us can be of vital importance, and fostering misunderstanding of it can lead to unexpected, sometimes very negative consequences.

I don't mean this as any kind of attack, there are no rules as to what you must believe, but it is troubling when people actually claim the ability to choose their perception of reality based on personal preference.

So believe whatever you conclude, whether you agree with me or not, but please don't start defining reality around you based on what feels better to you - that is a very dangerous path indeed.		2009-08-24 02:23:00

Author:
Jagrevi
Posts: 1154

Also, just as a follow-up, I also wanted to address a bit more the whole "this way is more fun" thing.

This is my favorite youtube clip of all time, and thought I should bring it up here.

YouTube - Neil deGrasse Tyson - The Best Sermon Ever!

The idea that supernatural concepts are more satisfying is very pervasive, and, might I add, so ultimately tragic. If this is the only argument that is put forth, if you concede that the weight of evidence is in favor of a more rational explanation but you insist that continuing to blind oneself to the grand intricacies that are moving these forces, then you are missing out at actually exploring the most interesting thing "in" the universe.		2009-08-24 02:43:00

Author:
Jagrevi
Posts: 1154

To be quite honest, I'm a bit offended. I came in here and tried to add a bit of lightheartedness to your HEAVY reply, and I get put down and told that my thinking is wrong.

Allow me to rephrase:

I do believe in ghosts. Completely. I believe in God, too. You can tell me I'm wrong, you can tell me that science has disproven it, but I don't care. It's what I believe, and you shan't take that away from me.

And this is why I don't voice my beliefs on the internet. ^_^		2009-08-24 02:44:00

Author:
xkappax
Posts: 2569

To be quite honest, I'm a bit offended. I came in here and tried to add a bit of lightheartedness to your HEAVY reply, and I get put down and told that my thinking is wrong.

I apologize if I've offended you in any way, but this is the subject we are discussing, and it is intellectually "heavy", and yes, we're all being told that we're wrong. Each group of us are saying the other group is wrong, that is the nature of a disagreement.

I wish you no ill-will, and if you don't wish to discuss these matters, that is perfectly acceptable. No offense or 'put-down' was intended, and no one will think any less of you for simply choosing to not participate in discussion.		2009-08-24 02:57:00

Author:
Jagrevi
Posts: 1154

I never tell anyone they're wrong. That's the best thing about beliefs. If you have faith in something, it's your prerogative if you want to believe in it or not. Sure, it could be completely silly. You could believe the sky is red. It's not, but if it makes you happy, I'm certainly not going to stop you. ^_^

I write an entire comic series centered around ghosts. I'm fascinated with them. I read ghost stories, and I'd LOVE to go ghost hunting some time. Whether it is actually a dead person reaching out, or some sort of phenomenon that occurs in a person's brain, I don't care. I'm fascinated with it no matter what it is.		2009-08-24 03:08:00

Author:
xkappax
Posts: 2569

Ok, I see you're wanting to continue the conversation. I will do so if you want to, but note that I have no mean to offend you, it is that it appears that you do wish to continue.


I never tell anyone they're wrong.

When you say that you believe X is true, or that X is not true, it is implicitly saying that you believe people of the opposite viewpoint are wrong.

If you say "the sun is round", it is implicitly saying people who say "the sun is a square" are wrong. (Also, I'm not sure if your statement there is true - as that would even mean never correcting people when they say "oh, I left my keys under the bed", for example. But regardless, it works as a hypothetical).

For example, I see signs everyday, everywhere, telling me about "God" (presumably a variation of Yahweh, the Jewish origin god, such as Jehova). Those things are all telling me, as a rationalist, that I'm wrong, everyday. People disagreeing with you tends to be something you need to come to terms with to live in a society that isn't filled entirely with people of your identical perspective, nonetheless discuss the matters with then.

I'm sorry if people disagreeing with you bothers you, but there's not really much of a way to avoid that.


If you have faith in something, it's your prerogative if you want to believe in it or not. Sure, it could be completely silly. You could believe the sky is red. It's not, but if it makes you happy, I'm certainly not going to stop you. ^_^

I'd like to point out that the idea that "faith" is acceptable in any given matter is itself a matter of opinion. Many of our opinions have real world outcomes.

What if I have "faith" that the "God hates homosexuals"? Or "faith" that blowing up a building will lead be to be rewarded with 72 virgins in a paradise?

The claim here is that "faith" is an acceptable alternative to "rational analysis", and this is a point you and I would disagree on. Simply bringing up some clearly innocuous thing you may have "faith" in is not actually a defense of the "faith" as a reasonable analytical system.



Sure, it could be completely silly. You could believe the sky is red. It's not, but if it makes you happy, I'm certainly not going to stop you. ^_^

Again, I think we'd both agree that that really depends what it is we're talking about.



I write an entire comic series centered around ghosts. I'm fascinated with them. I read ghost stories, and I'd LOVE to go ghost hunting some time. Whether it is actually a dead person reaching out, or some sort of phenomenon that occurs in a person's brain, I don't care. I'm fascinated with it no matter what it is.

No one is faulting you for that, so I don't see your need to defend yourself for being interested in the idea of ghosts.		2009-08-24 03:21:00

Author:
Jagrevi
Posts: 1154

please don't bring religion into this topic, i don't want ti banned, i was just looking for a good place for people to discuss things that may or may not have happen please don't put down others and call them out as false things just believe what you want and if others disagree who cares it's what they believe in2009-08-24 03:23:00

Author:
Frank-the-Bunny
Posts: 1246

Well said. Let's get back on topic, shall we?

Has anyone else had any paranormal experiences? It can be anything from seeing a shadow, to hearing a voice, to seeing a giant skeleton wielding a chainsaw and singing the star spangled banner. I wanna hear some ghosts stories, gosh darn it!		2009-08-24 03:25:00

Author:
xkappax
Posts: 2569

please don't bring religion into this topic, i don't want ti banned, i was just looking for a good place for people to discuss things that may or may not have happen please don't put down others and call them out as false things just believe what you want and if others disagree who cares it's what they believe in

I don't believe anyone has put anyone down yet, and I didn't expect that to happen anytime soon, but I agree that I am slightly hesitant about the road this conversation is being driven down.

That being said, if more than one person talks, unless everyone agrees with them, there will be some implicit disagreement, and I don't think that is a problem in itself.		2009-08-24 03:27:00

Author:
Jagrevi
Posts: 1154

I wanna play with a Ouija Board sometime .

I don't believe they allow you to talk to ghosts though. It's probably a message from your subconscious.

I tend not to accuse anything weird that goes on in my house as being paranormal. Most sounds I just ignore, and anything dealing with technology I dismiss immediately, especially stuff like TVs turning on and off. I think that if you go into something thinking it's haunted, then you're going to see something paranormal. When you think there's a ghost somewhere, then every little thing becomes significant when it doesn't really matter at all.		2009-08-24 03:37:00

Author:
qrtda235566
Posts: 3664

I don't normally chime in on discussions like this, but here's my thoughts.

Are ghosts real? Maybe. Are there things we don't understand about our universe and this particular dimension? Absolutely. Whether it's ghosts or some other strange unexplainable thing there is no doubt in my mind that such things exist and occur all the time.

Personally, I have many (many means A LOT) stories I could tell you that would make your hairs stand on end. No... I'm not going to type them out in full detail here because I don't have that kind of time and you don't need to read a novel.

To all the nay-sayers out there (or here in this thread), I can only say this... until you witness the absolutely enexplainable yourself you really can't say with any certainty that ghosts or other paramormal things aren't tangeable and grace us with their presence from time to time.

Personally, I think it's very healthy to be skeptical about many things (the paranormal included)... but to outright deny the existence of these things and come up with theory's suggesting it has anything to do with magnetic fields affecting our brains, our imaginations running wild, etc etc, ... well, that's just ignorance as far as I'm concerned. Like I said, be skeptical - but not to the point that you aren't willing to listen to sane rational people's stories and agree that there can't possibly be an explanation for what has been witnessed and experienced.

I've had sightings where other people have been present and seen the same thing as I have at the same time. I've had people in my house describe seeing the exact same apparitions as others have in the past (and describe in detail), without any previous knowledge of the other persons experience. I've heard things thrown violently around my kitchen and shot up like a rocket to find nothing out of place in the kitchen at all... with other witnesses present. I've heard loud thumps from upstairs sounding like something has fallen from a high shelf and landed on the floor, only to find everything in perfect order... with witness present. I've had childrens finger prints show up in perfectly symmetrical patterns on my LCD tv screen when there have been no children present in my house. I've washed those tiny finger prints away only to have them re-appear the next day with new prints added to the pattern - with witnesses. I've seen things that I have difficulty putting into words and talking about because they shook my nerves so badly that the images still haunt me to this day (no pun intended). I've seen things that any rational thinking person would simply say.... there must be something else here, interacting on some level with the rest of humanity and our physical world.

I've seen things so dark and ominous that would scare you into moving from your house... I know I did.

For those who say they wish they could experience a ghost up close and personal... be careful what you wish for. The truth is, you probably wouldn't.

Just because I've never seen the Great Wall of China up close and personal, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.		2009-08-24 03:41:00

Author:
Rustbukkit
Posts: 1737

I wanna play with a Ouija Board sometime .

I don't believe they allow you to talk to ghosts though. It's probably a message from your subconscious.

Ouija boards are actually quite scary. I won't touch them anymore. I actually didn't believe in ghosts at all until I had an experience with a Ouija board that can be considered "less than good" ...

My friends and I were messing around with one and I always thought it was rubbish. I thought "people are pushing this and making it say things" ... I asked it if anything exciting was going to happen that particular summer. It spelled out "car" ... it then went on to spell out "july 25" ... I got in a near fatal car accident on July 25th.

After that, I won't touch those things. 		2009-08-24 03:42:00

Author:
xkappax
Posts: 2569

I wanna play with a Ouija Board sometime .

I don't believe they allow you to talk to ghosts though. It's probably a message from your subconscious.

Ouija Boards are actually quite fascinating. Their controlled by "ideomotor action", which in itself is a really interesting psychological phenomenon. It's also what's behind the whole idea of "dowsing", where people think they can locate hidden resources with a stick. They've done some research into it and really, very interesting.

Definitely worth looking into if you're interested in how your brain functions.		2009-08-24 03:42:00

Author:
Jagrevi
Posts: 1154

What Rustbukkit says is completely true.

And even science can't explain some things. I too have had experiences that I can't explain, that science can't explain, that no one can explain.

And if the ouija board is controlled by nothing more than your brain, then I do believe I'm psychic. Because I predicted the car accident that almost killed me. 		2009-08-24 03:46:00

Author:
xkappax
Posts: 2569

What Rustbukkit says is completely true. Even science can't explain some things. I too have had experiences that I can't explain, that science can't explain, that no one can explain.

And if the ouija board is controlled by nothing more than your brain, then I do believe I'm psychic. Because I predicted the car accident that almost killed me.

I think everyone could be psychic. We all live in one universe, and this universe only has one outcome for everyone. It's all predetermined, I think. Time isn't a constant, we know pretty much nothing about space, so yeah. We could all be psychic!

Or that's what I think. We've all had feelings of Deja Vu before, right? Even if it's just a picture you think of in a dream or while daydreaming, when you see that in real life it just hits you, right?		2009-08-24 03:50:00

Author:
qrtda235566
Posts: 3664

To all the nay-sayers out there (or here in this thread), I can only say this... until you witness the absolutely enexplainable yourself you really can't say with any certainty that ghosts or other paramormal things aren't tangeable and grace us with their presence from time to time.

This is actually an argument that's addressed in the first video I posted, but my retort would be this.

"Unexplainable" only means that you, given what you know, fail to come up with an explanation for the event. It does not mean that it cannot be explained.

I have seen stage magicians many times perform acts that I cannot rightly explain based on my limited knowledge. I don't, though, immediately jump to a supernatural explanation (occam's razor and all that - I assume, just like every trick, it's simply something I don't understand).

Those people who are skeptical about, for example ghosts, are not saying "it has been proven that ghosts do not exist". Rather, they are saying "there is not sufficient evidence to suggest that ghosts do exist".

To highlight, is there life under the surface of the moon? Perhaps, I certainly can't disprove it - but I'd say I'm skeptical of it, because there is no evidence suggesting it to be true.


but to outright deny the existence of these things and come up with theory's suggesting it has anything to do with magnetic fields affecting our brains, our imaginations running wild, etc etc, ... well, that's just ignorance as far as I'm concerned. Like I said, be skeptical - but not to the point that you aren't willing to listen to sane rational people's stories and agree that there can't possibly be an explanation for what has been witnessed and experienced.

First off, I'd like to correct the idea that the temporal lobe explanation is something that has been "come up with". It's simply what the evidence points to, and has been replicated under lab conditions.

No one is saying (I presume) that we can 100% say we are right for sure, I think the fundamental disagreement is simply on what is more probable.

I posted a video in my first point on this thread on skepticism and open-mindedness that I think would illustrate my position - so counterarguing it would be the most effective way of counterarguing my position.		2009-08-24 03:52:00

Author:
Jagrevi
Posts: 1154

And even science can't explain some things. I too have had experiences that I can't explain, that science can't explain, that no one can explain.

I'm curious how you make the distinction between things we HAVEN'T explained, and things we CAN'T explain.

Go back in time far enough, and people would claim that the cause of the seasons are something we CAN'T explain. Obviously, now-a-days we can.		2009-08-24 03:54:00

Author:
Jagrevi
Posts: 1154

To all the nay-sayers out there (or here in this thread), I can only say this... until you witness the absolutely enexplainable yourself you really can't say with any certainty that ghosts or other paramormal things aren't tangeable and grace us with their presence from time to time.

I can't say with 100% certainty, but considering that testable evidence for such claims is completely nonexistent, I feel confident in taking the stance that ghosts do not exist. I have taken a similar stance on fairies, leprechauns, unicorns, etc. Once the evidence presents itself and proves reliable, then I will gladly change my position.		2009-08-24 03:55:00

Author:
mrsupercomputer
Posts: 1335

There's a song by peter paul and mary that really perfectly explains how I feel about supernatural things. (yes, I"m old, I know who peter paul and mary are)

"It's magic, and you don't want to know just how it's done it would ruin the show. You've just got to believe, 'cause believing is what makes it happen."

There are people who search for answers in everything because they wish for everything to have a rational explanation.

Then there are people like me. I like the unknown. I like to think that "magic" exists in this wonderful universe. I like there to be a little bit of mystery. And that's what I believe. ^_^		2009-08-24 03:57:00

Author:
xkappax
Posts: 2569

Once the evidence presents itself and proves reliable, then I will gladly change my position.

I would also like to reitterate this position.

Ghosts, leprechauns, fairies, gods, demons, spirits ... any one of these things COULD be true.

It's just that the evidence you are presenting for them don't actually meet basic standards of evidence. Court systems would be appalling if they went by the standards of evidence that are being forwarded by people proposing supernatural explanations.

You could very well be right, all skeptics are saying is you haven't presented any actual evidence for your case.

No one is saying they can 100% prove you to be incorrect, their simply saying you have yet to present signifigant evidence to suggest that you are.		2009-08-24 03:59:00

Author:
Jagrevi
Posts: 1154

yes, I"m old, I know who peter paul and mary are

... ... wait, we're old? 		2009-08-24 04:01:00

Author:
Jagrevi
Posts: 1154

I don't know. When I make references like "Peter Paul and Mary" i just expect someone to say "who're they?" and then make me feel like I'm ancient. I'm only 30. Maybe that's not quite THAT old yet.

Edit: I'm 31. lol. See, I'm senile already. I forgot that I turned 31 in june.		2009-08-24 04:03:00

Author:
xkappax
Posts: 2569

ZOMG I JUST GOTTED EVDENSE!

http://amog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/ghosts.jpg

http://www.scaryforkids.com/pics/real-ghost.jpg

http://virtualatdp.berkeley.edu:8081/pokemon/files/images/gengar

SCAREH!		2009-08-24 04:04:00

Author:
qrtda235566
Posts: 3664

Brilliant. The gengar made me almost fall out of my chair. Not sure if it was in terror, or because I was laughing so hard. 2009-08-24 04:04:00

Author:
xkappax
Posts: 2569

I don't know. When I make references like "Peter Paul and Mary" i just expect someone to say "who're they?" and then make me feel like I'm ancient. I'm only 30. Maybe that's not quite THAT old yet.

Ah, don't worry about it yet then. My fiance' is 40, and I don't consider her old. ... then again she spends all day playing nintendo DS and watching kung-fu movies.



There are people who search for answers in everything because they wish for everything to have a rational explanation.

Then there are people like me. I like the unknown. I like to think that "magic" exists in this wonderful universe. I like there to be a little bit of mystery. And that's what I believe. ^_^

I think you may have hit upon a key difference in philosophy.

So, let's define the underworkings of these things as "magic". By which I mean, they instill a sense of wonder and amazement. Numinous, I think would be a good word.

Yes, let's go with "Numinous".

I love the Numinous, but what gets me going even more than when I'm ignorant of how the numinous, how the 'magic' works, is when I actually GET how the magic works.

It's so amazing, so entirely magical and numinous, that it's really worth understanding.		2009-08-24 04:05:00

Author:
Jagrevi
Posts: 1154

That's how my husband is. My husband loves to know all the inner workings of everything in the universe. I always tell him, when he tells me how something works, that he needs to stop "crapping on my rainbows" 2009-08-24 04:07:00

Author:
xkappax
Posts: 2569

When I learned that Zelda had two timelines, it ruined it for me. 2009-08-24 04:09:00

Author:
qrtda235566
Posts: 3664

That's how my husband is. My husband loves to know all the inner workings of everything in the universe. I always tell him, when he tells me how something works, that he needs to stop "crapping on my rainbows"

Well, I'm glad to hear that your husband and I have something in common besides being dashingly handsome. 		2009-08-24 04:10:00

Author:
Jagrevi
Posts: 1154

When I learned that Zelda had two timelines, it ruined it for me.

If I told you that one of the three potential implicit models of quantum physics DID say that the universe has more than one "timeline" (seriously), would that "ruin" it for you,, or would you find that interesting?		2009-08-24 04:12:00

Author:
Jagrevi
Posts: 1154

heh heh.

I don't mind other people's opinions on the subject. I'm sorry if I came off as angry or anything. I'm always on the defensive about such things, because I've had a lot of hardships in my life, and really the only thing that gets me through my life without going crazy is my belief in the supernatural, my believe in "magic".

My friends are all math and science guys. I'm this artsy fartsy, ghost believin' weirdo. It makes me sad sometimes, because I start to think that I'm the only one who believes in stuff like that.

Wow. This is me having a serious discussion. I didn't think that was possible. I usually come in and insert a witty comment or something and then run away. 		2009-08-24 04:14:00

Author:
xkappax
Posts: 2569

I'm kinda hesitant after seeing the debate to say anything but since this was the intent of the thread...


Anyone else believe in ghosts, seen ghosts? If you have a story that isn't crap can you share it, i'm curious,I'm from Bucks County, Pennsylvania, which is notorious for ghosts and me and my friends go ghost hunting we have just bought a camcorder and will film are adventures, i'll post links to them in my blog, but i'm curious who else is a believer?

I do believe is spirits. I've had many unexplainable instances happen. One being when I was 12. Something woke me one night, I sat up and saw my grandfather at the foot of my bed. He smiled at me, told me to be brave and that he loved me. The next morning we got a call from my grandmother in another state telling us that he had died that night.		2009-08-24 04:17:00

Author:
Lady_Luck__777
Posts: 3458

I'm kinda hesitant after seeing the debate to say anything but since this was the intent of the thread...



I do believe is spirits. I've had many unexplainable instances happen. One being when I was 12. Something woke me one night, I sat up and saw my grandfather at the foot of my bed. He smiled at me, told me to be brave and that he loved me. The next morning we got a call from my grandmother in another state telling us that he had died that night.

That's really scary!

When my grandma died, I used to have these really realistic dreams about my grandmother and how she was alone in her house and couldn't go to heaven because she couldn't find my grandfather. She was always crying and it was really upsetting. The dreams went on and on and on and one day I had a dream where she was sitting at her kitchen table with my grandfather. She told me she had finally found him, and that I wouldn't be seeing her anymore. That was the last dream I had about her.		2009-08-24 04:20:00

Author:
xkappax
Posts: 2569

I didn't mean for it to sound scary..sorry
It was actually quite peaceful and there was a sense of calm and contentment that came with his presence.		2009-08-24 04:24:00

Author:
Lady_Luck__777
Posts: 3458

That's amazing. Thanks for sharing your experience. ^_^2009-08-24 04:25:00

Author:
xkappax
Posts: 2569

The mind is a strange thing.....


No... there are no ghosts. Just little kappa's running around in sackboy ghost outfits - nothing more, nothing less.		2009-08-24 04:27:00

Author:
CCubbage
Posts: 4430

Ccubbage, why'd you have to blow my cover like that?2009-08-24 04:28:00

Author:
xkappax
Posts: 2569

heh heh.

I don't mind other people's opinions on the subject. I'm sorry if I came off as angry or anything. I'm always on the defensive about such things, because I've had a lot of hardships in my life, and really the only thing that gets me through my life without going crazy is my belief in the supernatural, my believe in "magic".

My friends are all math and science guys. I'm this artsy fartsy, ghost believin' weirdo. It makes me sad sometimes, because I start to think that I'm the only one who believes in stuff like that.

Wow. This is me having a serious discussion. I didn't think that was possible. I usually come in and insert a witty comment or something and then run away.

Well, I think actually having a serious discussion is a good thing. Whenever there's been something I have emotional issues around, I tend to feel better after talking about it.

Talking about it itself is usually hard, and I may get emotional, offended, etc, but that's usually because I was somewhere I shouldn't really have been emotionally (or at least wasn't healthy), and then I get to somewhere a bit better afterwards.

Anyways, what I will say is this, I think we'd agree that people can be equally fascinated with the actual nature of things as they can be with supernatural explanations. I posted a Neil DeGrasse Tyson clip that I think exemplifies this.

As you said, some people are one way, and some people are another.

Everyone needs comfort and reassurance in life, people are emotional creatures, and we all understand that. The conflict comes from when pre-existing supernatural assurances are forced to change as the times change. People don't like change, and they certainly don't like their assumptions being challenged. It simply "feels safer" not to challenge your own ideas, especially you've associated warm and fuzzy feelings with them.

This has happened time and time again. People got up in arms about the earth not being the center of the universe, for example. It meant alot to them, just as the scientific model of the universe means alot to someone like me.

So there's comfort to be found in every viewpoint.

However, in order for standards of living to improve, that requires the scientific world view. It's the way of thinking that allows us to give you clean water, the Haber-Bosch process alone is responsible for providing most of the human population with food. It has expanded the human lifespan an enormous amount. Science is the bedrock of the first world civilization that we take for granted - it's how we're talking right now, in fact.

The scientific world view is a necessity - it's how everything around you works. Unfortunately, yes, that does mean cultural conflict, and hurt feelings as science challenges preheld conceptions.

But what we're going isn't worse, there's just as much numinous, if not more, there.

Where science is taking us is not a perfect place, and it's not a place where we know everything - but it has delivered us to a civilization that for all its faults is worlds apart from the way the world use to be, and it did it by replacing supernatural concepts with naturalistic ones.

No one wishes to rob you of your comfort for spite, but know that the process of working to understand the world is done with honest intention, and to try to help make that world better.

No one thinks less of you for believing what you do, we're just all working for what we perceive as the best interest.		2009-08-24 04:29:00

Author:
Jagrevi
Posts: 1154

The mind is a strange thing.....


No... there are no ghosts. Just little kappa's running around in sackboy ghost outfits - nothing more, nothing less.

I don't think even SHE was claiming she was a ghost. Well, maybe she was kind of claiming that she was a ghost in some way, in that she is really a ghost in some kind of unnecessary physical shell - but I'm definitely sure no one was claiming the existence of ghost-sackpeople.

That would be an interesting glitch though.		2009-08-24 04:36:00

Author:
Jagrevi
Posts: 1154

My mom got a new kitty.... turned up in her back yard. Not a very nice kitty - scratched her when she tried to pick it up.

Hey look! Pizza!

By the way, ever wondered what happens after death? You start to stink a bit...



Good night. Man I could use a glass of water....		2009-08-24 04:38:00

Author:
CCubbage
Posts: 4430

Since you brought it up, I'm assuming your ok talking about it. I have no wish to rob people of "warm fuzzies" they don't wish to bring up to the table with other people.


I do believe is spirits. I've had many unexplainable instances happen. One being when I was 12. Something woke me one night, I sat up and saw my grandfather at the foot of my bed. He smiled at me, told me to be brave and that he loved me. The next morning we got a call from my grandmother in another state telling us that he had died that night.

Before again pointing out that "unexplainable" only means you can't think of an explanation, here's an interesting point discuss.

If people do indeed have ghosts inside them that we can't detect - and these ghosts are able to think independently (Ghosts talking to people would clearly mean this), without the need of a functioning brain (as theirs are clearly no longer functioning), why do people with brain damage have damaged mental functions?

Essentially, if the brain is not necessary for intelligent thought, why does a damaged brain lead to damaged thought, or a diseased brain lead to diseased thought?		2009-08-24 04:43:00

Author:
Jagrevi
Posts: 1154

The thing I like to remind to both science people and xkappaxes out there is that every great science man had some crazy in him.

To put it simply, we are bound by our perception of things. We are bound by what our body can detect/understand. Perception is entirely subjective and we thrive to call ourselves rational beings. Well, there's a little catch. Sometimes the answer almost come before the question. That what is crazy about science and what made science progress the most. People wanted X answers so this made them discover and understand X.

Many people in the back of their mind will find more secure to start their thinking process by assuming, even unconsciously, that X doesn't exist. It's just science fiction. Well, since they aren't open to the phenomenon, they might never discover evidence of its existance because they will miss subtle hints about it because of... the way they perceive things.

.		2009-08-24 04:45:00

Author:
RangerZero
Posts: 3901

My step father was an athiest scientest (he was a chemist with the US Army and had a degree in psychology).

One time we were having a discussion about evolution. I said "gee, every time they find a new species a whole new set of missing links muddles everything up."

He got mad and said "We don't know HOW evolution happened, but we do KNOW it happened!"

To which I replied "Hmmm... that sounds like faith"


That was the last time we discussed it.... mainly because arguing about something were there are a bunch of missing facts can cause hurt feelings.

I agree with RangerZero.		2009-08-24 04:57:00

Author:
CCubbage
Posts: 4430

Since you brought it up, I'm assuming your ok talking about it. I have no wish to rob people of "warm fuzzies" they don't wish to bring up to the table with other people.

"Warm fuzzies" is NOT what has gotten me through life. And the older I get the more I am willing to accept those things Science can not explain.

Before again pointing out that "unexplainable" only means you can't think of an explanation, here's an interesting point discuss.
This is not a matter of what I can or can't explain. A belief is based on faith.

If people do indeed have ghosts inside them that we can't detect - and these ghosts are able to think independently (Ghosts talking to people would clearly mean this), without the need of a functioning brain (as theirs are clearly no longer functioning), why do people with brain damage have damaged mental functions?
I don't believe people have ghosts in them and I disagree with your view that that is clearly what spirits talking to someone means.

Essentially, if the brain is not necessary for intelligent thought, why does a damaged brain lead to damaged thought, or a diseased brain lead to diseased thought?

I think this question would be better suited for another thread.

I respect you have your own point of view on this however I shall bring up the intent of this thread again. I don't believe it was meant to debate but rather someone expressing their views and looking for similar views.		2009-08-24 05:01:00

Author:
Lady_Luck__777
Posts: 3458

The thing I like to remind to both science people and xkappaxes out there is that every great science man had some crazy in him.

To put it simply, we are bound by our perception of things. We are bound by what our body can detect/understand. Perception is entirely subjective and we thrive to call ourselves rational beings. Well, there's a little catch. Sometimes the answer almost come before the question. That what is crazy about science and what made science progress the most. People wanted X answers so this made them discover and understand X.

Many people in the back of their mind will find more secure to start their thinking process by assuming, even unconsciously, that X doesn't exist. It's just science fiction. Well, since they aren't open to the phenomenon, they might never discover evidence of its existance because they will miss subtle hints about it because of... the way they perceive things.

I just want to be clear that Science is open to any phenomenon for which reasonable evidence is presented. If you actually present reasonable evidence for it, the idealogy behind science mandates that minds be changed.
Even Einstein has to admit he was wrong some things. Science is ABOUT reforming ideas.
There was a professor back in the day, who use to teach all of the reasons why this one particular feature of the cell was actually a figment. This went on for over a decade I believe (I can look up the exact info if anyone wants me to).
Anyways, one day a visiting, younger biologist visited, and gave a lecture on this exact feature, and the evidence for it. Afterwards, the older of the two approached the stage, shook his hand, and thanked him, telling him "I've been wrong all these years".

This is one of the most famous incidents in scientific lecturing, and the entire place lit up in applause. This is the ideal of science.

Being proven wrong in Science is exciting, it means there's a huge amount of a new subject matter to explore and study. It's just that in order to remove bias, it's also very impersonal.

So even if you would want something to be true, if the rules of evidence say it does not yet pass go, you need to say "this does not yet pass go".

Trust me, it's not like we don't WANT there to be ghosts.

So when we say "this does not pass as evidence", it's because if we're being scientific, we're MANDATED to. It doesn't mean we're "not on your side".

Science isn't about "sides".		2009-08-24 05:04:00

Author:
Jagrevi
Posts: 1154

One time we were having a discussion about evolution. I said "gee, every time they find a new species a whole new set of missing links muddles everything up."

He got mad and said "We don't know HOW evolution happened, but we do KNOW it happened!"

To which I replied "Hmmm... that sounds like faith"



Actually, I wouldn't call that faith, because it's based on physical evidence.

Also, there's a joke among scientists that if you imagine a line of bricks, some of which are missing

-------------...............------------------

and you fill one in

-------------.......-.......------------------

there's always going to be someone there to point out that now "there are twice as many gaps".		2009-08-24 05:07:00

Author:
Jagrevi
Posts: 1154

Well I have to say I love your way of looking at things rationally. I myself spent years trying to rationalize and find an explanation for my experiences, both at the time and after the fact.

Unexplainable isn't quite as general an idea as you make it seem, in my opinion. Just because it isn't explainable, doesn't negate the fact that it happend and that it may have something to do with the paranormal or inter-dimensional subject matter. The fact remains that at the time, no one (including witnesses) has been able to explain what had occured or witnessed. I'm quite confident in saying that had any scientist, theorist, or MENSA member experienced the things I have, none of them would be have been able to figure out just what it is that they had just seen or heard, or how it is that multiple people witness these identical things at the same time. That is what makes it paranormal. The point is that it's not seemingly normal and doesn't often occur in everyday life and witnessed by the majority of the population.




I have seen stage magicians many times perform acts that I cannot rightly explain based on my limited knowledge. I don't, though, immediately jump to a supernatural explanation (occam's razor and all that - I assume, just like every trick, it's simply something I don't understand).

Well of course you don't.... that would be about as silly as your comparing stage magicians and their slight of hand and stage props to somehow possibly being paranormal or to this conversation. I'm not talking magic here, I'm talking paranormal activity.

Those people who are skeptical about, for example ghosts, are not saying "it has been proven that ghosts do not exist". Rather, they are saying "there is not sufficient evidence to suggest that ghosts do exist".

I hear you 100% on this. I myself used to be skeptical... until things began to happen to me. Even for the first few years I was still skeptical and thought it must have something to do with my brain activity or my imagination. It wasn't until other people were present and witnessed the same things that I began to change my outlook. Out of all the skeptics out there.... approximately zer0 have come forward with any valid theories for how these things happen or what is causing them. You know why? They don't know either. You can't simply apply science or rationality to everything that happens. We're talking about the paranormal.

To highlight, is there life under the surface of the moon? Perhaps, I certainly can't disprove it - but I'd say I'm skeptical of it, because there is no evidence suggesting it to be true.

I'm skeptical of this too.

First off, I'd like to correct the idea that the temporal lobe explanation is something that has been "come up with". It's simply what the evidence points to, and has been replicated under lab conditions.

My point is that this "so called evidence" replicated under lab conditions is just that... so called evidence. Sure we can prompt the body and mind into reacting certain ways under certain conditions. One thing you will never get in these lab tests is two or more people witnessing the exact same thing.... like an old man wearing a red and black checkered shirt, with blue over-alls, a beard, and smoking a pipe. It simply hasn't occured in any of these tests. This, in my opinion, is why these tests have no bearing on the topic and have absolutely nothing to do with the paranormal. If the evidence and results of these tests were at all conclusive, the matter would have been closed eons ago and no one would give the paranormal topic the time of day.

Yet here we are, still having this conversation. Hmmm....

No one is saying (I presume) that we can 100% say we are right for sure, I think the fundamental disagreement is simply on what is more probable.

Probability still depends on which podium you are making your case from.

I posted a video in my first point on this thread on skepticism and open-mindedness that I think would illustrate my position - so counterarguing it would be the most effective way of counterarguing my position.

I'll check this video out later and see what it's all about.

By the way.... your fiance sounds great! Does she have any single sisters by chance? lolz		2009-08-24 05:09:00

Author:
Rustbukkit
Posts: 1737

I'll check this video out later and see what it's all about.

By the way.... your fiance sounds great! Does she have any single sisters by chance? lolz

I'll tell her you asked. (not really, but that sounded good)

Anyways, I'm off to dinner. I'll read through the rest of what everyone posts later, even if I myself don't post again.

Thank you for some conversation, it's been fun.		2009-08-24 05:14:00

Author:
Jagrevi
Posts: 1154

The thing I like to remind to both science people and xkappaxes out there is that every great science man had some crazy in him.

To put it simply, we are bound by our perception of things. We are bound by what our body can detect/understand. Perception is entirely subjective and we thrive to call ourselves rational beings. Well, there's a little catch. Sometimes the answer almost come before the question. That what is crazy about science and what made science progress the most. People wanted X answers so this made them discover and understand X.

Many people in the back of their mind will find more secure to start their thinking process by assuming, even unconsciously, that X doesn't exist. It's just science fiction. Well, since they aren't open to the phenomenon, they might never discover evidence of its existance because they will miss subtle hints about it because of... the way they perceive things.

.

Good point. I myself never wanted to see any of these things... and I don't ever again. Unfortunately these things seem to happen to me. My father once said "I don't think places are haunted, I think people are haunted... that would be you son."

I truly believe that there is some part of individuals brains, souls, whatever, that seem to be more open or in tune with these things. I always find it interesting when the science thing comes into play in these dialogues, because science is really not the be all and end all of everything. I love science and it's ability to set things straight where our world is concerned... unfortunately it will never find all the answers.		2009-08-24 05:21:00

Author:
Rustbukkit
Posts: 1737

I'll tell her you asked. (not really, but that sounded good)

Anyways, I'm off to dinner. I'll read through the rest of what everyone posts later, even if I myself don't post again.

Thank you for some conversation, it's been fun.

NO WAIT!! You can't leave NOW!! We're just getting started here!!

I think someone's scared! lolz 		2009-08-24 05:25:00

Author:
Rustbukkit
Posts: 1737

I'm back - but I've been in this thread for quite a while, so don't assume me leaving is a concession - trust me, I have no problem making a concession if I'm convinced, I admire people who admit when their wrong more than people who just didn't happen to be wrong in the first place - I would much rather be the former.


NO WAIT!! You can't leave NOW!! We're just getting started here!!

I think someone's scared! lolz

Aah, an appeal to ego. I'll bite for now, but it's 10:13 so don't expect me to be here indefinitely. =)


Well I have to say I love your way of looking at things rationally. I myself spent years trying to rationalize and find an explanation for my experiences, both at the time and after the fact.

As long as we both agree that the end result is attempting to be rational, than we're on the same side here (not that we agree on conclusions, but we're both attempting the same thing).



Unexplainable isn't quite as general an idea as you make it seem, in my opinion.

I think we need to define terms here. When someone tells me something is "unexplainable", to me, that means "there is no rational process behind this happening". Meaning effect without cause. If it has a cause, then that cause is an explanation, making it explainable, even if unexplained.


Just because it isn't explainable, doesn't negate the fact that it happend and that it may have something to do with the paranormal or inter-dimensional subject matter.

I'm going to work here under the assumption that you're using the term "isn't explainable" the way I would use the term "isn't explained". So, let me openly change your quote to:

"Just because it isn't explainED, doesn't negate the fact that it happened and that it may have something to do with the paranormal or inter-dimensional subject matter."

... and answer that. If that isn't accurate, please correct me as to what you mean by the term in question.

Anyways, interdimensional, granted. Again though, I think we need to define words here. By "paranormal", I read into it "breaking the normal fundamental laws of the universe". Meaning, of course, that the universe does not function in any rational way. To me, this is an enormous claim.


The fact remains that at the time, no one (including witnesses) has been able to explain what had occured or witnessed.

What incident are we referring to? (perhaps I just forgot, I just got back from dinner and do not remember all of the finer points)

Regardless though, it's almost a mute point, because there are undoubtedly unexplained phenomena - so your point stands that there are phenomena that are unexplained, yes.


I'm quite confident in saying that had any scientist, theorist, or MENSA member experienced the things I have, none of them would be have been able to figure out just what it is that they had just seen or heard, or how it is that multiple people witness these identical things at the same time. That is what makes it paranormal. The point is that it's not seemingly normal and doesn't often occur in everyday life and witnessed by the majority of the population.

Ok, I believe I now understand what you mean by paranormal. Wouldn't this definition qualify a great deal of things paranormal? Such as an eclipse?

Anyways, disregarding all above, let me be clear what my position is.

1) There are many events which people attribute as "supernatural".

2) For the majority of these, people are putting forth flawed logic and presenting evidence that is not valid

3) For those incidents for which no current explanation exists, there is no reasonable evidence that would qualify the specific idea that "people's intellectual ability is actually that of, or mirrored by, a non-physical extension currently undetectable portion of their body which functions independently when the known system is disassembled completely and beyond repair"
and that it's more likely, if only because of the logical contradictions and the small amount of probability space that is taken up, that some other explanation is more likely than that specific one.

I'm not saying nothing "extradimensional" ever occurs to anyone. I'm saying that based on the evidence we have, "it's a ghost!" is not a reasonably satisfactory answer.

For example, let's say a building downtown burns to the ground, and someone says "It was Al-Qaeda!". While possible, I'm sure that knowing nothing else, you would conclude that this is most likely not the case. Even if you consider it a possibility, with no evidence pointing towards it, the sheer amount of alternative explanations outweigh that particular one.

So when I say "I do not believe in Ghosts", I mean that this specific idea, as I outlined above as per my definition (although it may not be everyone's), would appear to be signifigantly less than a 50% probability.

Therefore, out of "yes or no", "are ghosts real", based on current evidence, I'd put my money on "no". Strongly so, in fact.

The claim is that this specific explanation is not a satisfactory explanation.
It is NOT that "there is no explanation beyond our current understanding". That's a bit of a straw man.

The claim is that the suggestion put forth, "ghosts!', has not presented sufficient evidence.
It is NOT that "that is completely impossible". That's also a bit of a straw man - not one that you made but one others have so I bring it up as well.		2009-08-24 06:39:00

Author:
Jagrevi
Posts: 1154

Let me also respond to your other post.


My father once said "I don't think places are haunted, I think people are haunted... that would be you son."

Seriously? That's not just from a movie? Because that's a great scary line.


I love science and it's ability to set things straight where our world is concerned... unfortunately it will never find all the answers.

Agreed. Finding "all" the answers would imply there's a finite number of questions.

That being said, when it deals with phenomena in reality, it's the best methodology we have for ascertaining the methods by which things occur, so I wouldn't underline the fact that it's not omniscient as an excuse to attempt to bypass it.

I'd put forth that if phenomena "A" effects you, a physical being (or at least one in a physical world if we can't agree on that), than it has interacted with a physical world governed by scientific principles. It's occurrence has affected a world wherein science is the best means for determining the mechanical functioning of phenomena. Essentially, if you're talking about it, this is a phenomena that must interact with the scientific world that we know in some shape or form - making science the obvious way of determining what this phenomena is on a mechanistic level.

Yes, Science isn't perfect, but that admission does not make any other methodology - dice rolling for example - any better. They would still tend to be classified as "less reliable than the scientific method".		2009-08-24 06:57:00

Author:
Jagrevi
Posts: 1154

what a thread :o2009-08-24 07:08:00

Author:
Unknown User

The good ol' ghost question.

Yes, I do believe. I live not that far from the Whaley House, which is obviously haunted (officialy recognized by the government as haunted; can you believe that?) Plus... I have a pretty hyper-active mind, so either way, I believe. I have never encountered a ghost before, though. Well, at least I think I haven't.

Ever since my mom's elders passed on, my house has always felt so peaceful. It might be because of my nana's ashes in the living room; perhaps it's the crucifix on my wall; either way, I've always felt that someone (or something, for that matter) has always watched over and protected me, no matter where I go. I have never been involved in a serious accident, I have never broken a bone in my body, and I rarely get sick (usually only once per year). Other people I've known have had much tragedy happen to them.

Now I know people will start saying "Well, it's just a coincidence" or "Ghosts and deceased people are two completely different things" or even "Ghost don't exist; blab-blah-blah said so." Ask yourself this: how can one claim something to be non-existant when science can't provide an answer for either side? And how can you prove something to be factually wrong when you haven't even experienced it first-hand?

Obviously, only those who chose to believe in it believe, but those who say it's blasphemy and wrong... think before you open your mouth. It's the same thing as religion.		2009-08-24 07:47:00

Author:
Outlaw-Jack
Posts: 5757

Wow. Am I glad I left last night. This isn't even close to the intent that the thread creator had for this thread. Tell you what...

For anyone who wants to ACTUALLY talk about ghost stories, please PM me or perhaps I'll set up a group or something.

I've had my beliefs stomped on enough last night for a lifetime, and right after my cat had to be put to sleep, no less.

Jagrevi, I will say this to you. There are people out there that DO NOT think the way you do. Respect them, and for the love of all things good, THINK about that sort of stuff before you speak.

People on the other side of the internet are people with real feelings, real thoughts, real emotions, and they should be respected. When someone asks you to stop attacking their beliefs, please, in the future, stop. This thread was not about what it became because of you insisting on being correct.

There are no right and wrongs when dealing with ghosts. That's one of those wonderful gray areas of the universe.

I certainly will think twice about posting my lighthearted views (or any of my views) on the internet from now on.

And thanks for all the pm's from the concerned and nice individuals.

Later!		2009-08-24 12:21:00

Author:
xkappax
Posts: 2569

If I told you that one of the three potential implicit models of quantum physics DID say that the universe has more than one "timeline" (seriously), would that "ruin" it for you,, or would you find that interesting?

I don't think the universe has multiple timelines. I think there are alternate universes. I think everything is predetermined, though. Since time is inconstant, that's the only thing I can wrap my head around. I think time travel would result in the creation of another universe with another predetermined timeline. So I think everything is predetermined in it's own universe.

PS: Ghosts are scary lawl.		2009-08-24 13:02:00

Author:
qrtda235566
Posts: 3664

In any case, I would disagree both that "life is more fun" when you apply supernatural answers - as the true causes behind phenomena can be fascinating and fill one with a sense of awe at the structure of things and one's place in it, and also, I would argue that quite often understanding the nature of the world around us can be of vital importance, and fostering misunderstanding of it can lead to unexpected, sometimes very negative consequences.

I can't agree more with you Jagrevi
My opinion is really close to yours.		2009-08-24 13:08:00

Author:
Takelow
Posts: 1355

I'm being referred to specifically, so I'm going to respond. Once again though, if you have an emotional attachment to a particular viewpoint and wish to discuss it regardless - note that people may dissent.



Jagrevi, I will say this to you. There are people out there that DO NOT think the way you do. Respect them, and for the love of all things good, THINK about that sort of stuff before you speak.

Once again, I apologize if I've offended you in any way, as I had absolutely no intention of doing so - and I would still say that I believe I've 'maintained decorum', so to speak.

Think of it this way, if this were a disagreement over whether plastic dissolves in water, would anything that ANYONE'S said be considered over the top or offensive? You hear FAR more aggressive language when people talk about politics, or whether a piece of art or food meets their standards.

I simply had believed that the forums were open to all, regardless of opinion. If the mere presence of dissenting opinion bothers you, I apologize, but I naturally saw the forums as simply that ... a forum - for discussion - not a church.



There are no right and wrongs when dealing with ghosts. That's one of those wonderful gray areas of the universe.

This would imply that ghosts can simultaneously exist and not exist at the same time. If there are "no rights and wrongs", that would mean that the statement "there are ghosts" and "there are no ghosts" are equally valid from a hypothetical objective, omniscient standpoint - which makes it hard for me to envision what real world phenomena is occurring that would meet both definitions.

What I would say is this - if you are correct and there is anything which meets the definitions of a ghost (although people may differ on what those are), we are not both right - you would be completely right, and I would be completely wrong.		2009-08-24 14:17:00

Author:
Jagrevi
Posts: 1154

Locked by request of OP.2009-08-24 14:33:00

Author:
ConfusedCartman
Posts: 3729


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