Archive: 49 posts

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I've always had the odd comment that 'your level could do with a story'. While I understand that people like their little stories they've just never interested me. Now, with my newest level I'm getting more and more comments about it. The general consensus among these people is that there is no motivation to play the level. 'Where's the drive that is making you want to carry on?' they will say. My answer to that is pure platforming fun. As that is what this game is about! Look at Mm's storymode. Do you remember the plot from that? It could be wrote on the back of a beer mat! (That's probably where it was thought up). Does it really add to the game? I don't think so. Now, I've recently realised where they're coming from a little bit more. All great platformers have their stories and their enemies. Mario had Bowser and saving the princess or whatever... Thinking of it in these terms, I can understand them wanting a story. However, I believe their comparing it to such things to be a little out of place. Most levels that are made in LBP are not part of a series, meaning that any story you make up, has to be crammed into that one level you have. Is any story you think of going to add to that experiece? Is it really going to be worth telling? I don't think it is. We aren't making a full game here, we're taking little snippets or our imagination and implanting them into LBP. My levels are just like ideas of worlds that I've made up, you could even call them concepts. The different places my story would be set if I was creating a real full platformer. Anyway, end of rant. Discussion ensue

2009-08-07 18:19:00 Author: jackofcourse Posts: 1494

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I have my own opinions about stories, but it's difficult to please everyone. Some people won't like a story if you put it in, or think it detracts from the platforming! You can never please everyone. Having said that, I do love a good story in my own levels. This is mainly because it gives some more structure to my levels and can often be used to point the right direction or way to do something. It also links together platforming with a little bit of extra stuff, like a loading screen can stop you getting sore fingers. I also use a story as I think it helps me to come up with more ideas for a single level - and of course it prolongs your level, so it's less short. However a story can really be anything - several thousand of speech bubbles, or just a monkey telling you to go find his bananas! That's my thoughts on the matter - but really LBP is all about creating for fun not for what people want. So have fun with your levels and if you want to create other worlds then do it, it's not like your getting one star levels

2009-08-07 18:31:00 Author: Coxy224 Posts: 2645

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I'd say a story isn't necessary. Certainly not if your level is just pure fun. Given that motor mouths are pretty much the only way to tell a story and they oftentimes ruin the flow or are ignored by the players I usually don't bother with it. You can of course hint a story through the design of your levels; let the players create their own story in their heads. (Or just have a simple short line at the beginning to give the player a reason, if he needs one. "Find my balloon." or "Save Bubu" something like that.) Of course, I don't mind a well made story, but if it stretches over several levels I will probably have forgotten the beginning by the time I play the second or third level of the series.

2009-08-07 18:32:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193

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Firstly, motor mouths Syroc hahaha! That did make me laugh, although the amount of text bubbles some people use in a row that is probably the most accurate description I think both of you have commented on both sides of the argument very well. That is what I want to do, I like creating my own little 'worlds'. Small concepts of what I would do if I was making a full game. I guess it just grates on me a little when people say 'this is what you're level is missing'. It's not so much that it's missing it, because that's not what I'm trying to do! It's like saying a puzzle level is missing platforming. Or MrsSpookyBuz's Hyper Cube is missing some curves haha.

2009-08-07 18:37:00 Author: jackofcourse Posts: 1494

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You don`t need anything. To me the beauty of LBP is that so many different styles of levels exist. Some work better with a story and others don`t. To crowbar a story into a level that neither needs to wants one would be doing a disservice to the level and to yourself.

2009-08-07 18:53:00 Author: Matt 82 Posts: 1096

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In honesty, all of us as creators have our strengths, but very few of us have plot-writing as a strength. And I agree that often the heavy plot-based levels do just slow down and detract from gameplay, however.... I think it enhances the gameplay if you have an overall objective or premise. It doesn't have to be much and it shouldn't impede on the gameplay, it just rounds off your level. Like visuals add to the gameplay and make for a more rounded level. Think about Ccubbage/Cuzfeeshe's Destiny: it has no plot, but it has a premise, a setting and an objective. Completely redundant to the gameplay (which is awesome without) but it just gives the player a rationale for what they are doing.

2009-08-07 19:01:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Of course I love a good storyline when I play story-based levels, but I agree with many of your points jackofcourse. In a simple platforming level, a story won't really add much to the experience, and could even take some of the experience away. In fact, I don't really like putting storylines into my platforming levels now, or even magic mouths, for that matter. Although I wouldn't start putting storylines in my levels just because a few people have said that I should. Overall, it's just really if you want to make a story-driven level or not.

2009-08-07 19:09:00 Author: lk9988 Posts: 1077

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You dont have to cram a Homer epic into every level, but a short speech bubble telling you whats going on, or what you are trying to accomplish will do. In Mario, the only story in the whole game is to save the princess, nothing more than that. EDIT- rtm hit it on the button.

2009-08-07 19:30:00 Author: Jrange378 Posts: 573

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I'm totally with you jack, and the story is an issue that is bothering me with my upcoming levels, as well as monsters and puzzle, I would like to cram in everything, but I'm not good at it, so I'm just trying to do a good platformer, fun and smooth. Obviously if you have stories that deserve to be told or the skills to write like NinjaMicWz, it's always wonderful to enjoy a good story. And finally, hearing these words from you jack, one of the top notch creator globally, is kind reliefing for people like me.

2009-08-07 19:44:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112

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Simple... some designs use stories, others don't. In the past 30 years of video game history that's pretty much been it. If the level SEEMS like it needs a story behind it, than maybe it would improve it - but other than that, I can't think of a reason to have a story.

2009-08-07 20:02:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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I think it's up to the creator, and depends on the type of level. However, when some kind of story is included, it should only be used to 'enhance' the gameplay, rather than replace it.

2009-08-07 20:07:00 Author: MrsSpookyBuz Posts: 1492

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No. Something should be appreciated for what it is, and not scrutinized for what it's not. It would never have occurred to me at the end of any of your levels to think that it needed a story. I do believe that a great level with no story will be better than a mediocre level with a story, but can never match a great level with a great layer of story, dialogue or context... although, few of those actually exist. However, there are ways to tell a story only with visual or audible cues... such is the nature of film, photography, art, and instrumental music. I really only thought about utilizing my ability to write when a level of mine was severely panned for not having a story... I initially rejected the idea, but it occurred to me that I do enjoy writing, consider myself excellent at it, and I thought hey why not? If my talents for putting things together, and my interests in visual arts are being channeled into this creative outlet then why not bring along my other talents? It doesn't have to be Shakespeare, or a flood of text, or even be there at all to be a good level... but take CaptainCowboyhat's OH NO series... excellent platformer in every single category. The simple use of witty dialogue and context puts it a step above any other series of levels that's geared towards the same kind of gameplay with equal or better visual standards. It makes them memorable, gives them a cohesive identity that can be carried on, and an aspect of creativity that can't be devalued over time as visual, mechanical, and gameplay standards are evolved by the community. Even though some ignore it or don't enjoy it at all, or even become agitated with it, I believe my poetry and writing is what puts my fantasy themed levels far above similar levels that don't have even a shred of effort put into the subtext and meaning of the level. I put as much time and energy, if not more, into the aspects of gameplay, design, and visuals as anyone else... but then I take it a step further and give you something you won't get anywhere else... it's not "shoehorned in" as you said though. Like JonMartin's series, it's built to be what it is.

2009-08-07 20:29:00 Author: Unknown User

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That's my entire series out of the darn window! I still think that there can be a good balance of both platforming and story.

2009-08-07 20:51:00 Author: KoRnDawwg Posts: 1424

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No. Something should be appreciated for what it is, and not scrutinized for what it's not. This is a hypothesis I used over on LBPforum.net when this debate arised. I was asking for people to 'review' my level on what was there and not what was missing. I said it's similar to what someone said about my level on the comments sections... ''Game play phenomenal. Everything flows so smoothly. I never got stuck or spent too long on one part. A bit short though which is why I gave it 4 stars instead of 5.'' Why are you rating the level on what ISN'T there? Surely a level should be rated on what IS there. A member over on LBPforum.net didn't really agree though, I think they took my point a bit too literal. All levels could be improved, of course, but surely we should give our opinions on what is there instead of what isn't.

2009-08-07 20:53:00 Author: jackofcourse Posts: 1494

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It doesn't have to be Shakespeare, or a flood of text, or even be there at all to be a good level... but take CaptainCowboyhat's OH NO series... excellent platformer in every single category. The simple use of witty dialogue and context puts it a step above any other series of levels that's geared towards the same kind of gameplay with equal or better visual standards. gameplay standards are evolved by the community. Well put Ninja, I was about to use exactly the same example. Even a wafer thin premise can enhance a level if the dialogue is well done. It can simply give a level a unique personality (as can a great theme or amazing design). On the flip-side, there's nothing a saggy as a story level with no heart, style or humour.

2009-08-07 21:10:00 Author: julesyjules Posts: 1156

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Alot of people don't understand that you can't have everything, or can really grasp what the creative process was like for a level... when I get slowdown I immediately evaluate why - ah, it's that amazing visual effect and all this detail right here. When a level's short, but bursting at the seams with what's there, I can see why... and vice versa when a level is somewhat lacking in detail, but looks clean and orderly, consistent and is very long and enjoyable. Whatever the ratio is I feel like I can weigh out the compromises, or see when someone was trying to balance all aspects evenly and view it objectively. Outside of levels that really are just not good at all and have nothing to do with this, it's very rare that I see something that doesn't seem intentionally balanced on one side or the other to be the way it is, or neutral on purpose and out of necessity... and not a certain way because the creator lacked the foresight or skill to compensate for it. I sometimes finish levels and it's like "what? it's over already?" - but to me that says more about how much I enjoyed it, than anything else... because I wanted more. Alot of people can't do that... and honestly, comments like that on an otherwise perfectly enjoyable level just seem resentful or maligned. @jules... someone could even just start their level off with "GET TO THE CHOPPA!" as their one and only piece of dialogue, and I'd probably consider it better for it, even if there was no helicopter.

2009-08-07 21:45:00 Author: Unknown User

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Hmmm really good points all as well as an interesting topic. I would agree pretty much every point made in this thread. I think it simply depends on the level. jackofcourse's levels are amazingly fun and I don't think it really would do well with a story per say.. However a JulesyJules level without a story would be 'sackrilegious' and I would have to toss popcorn at my tv! (just kidding!!!) On the flip side, CCubbage Vertigo and any of the Hyper MrsSpookyBuz levels would be sorta ridiculous to have a story, but Splat Invaders series as well as the Darkness Falls would be not nearly as charming without a story. So to answer jackofcourse... no not necessarily. I think in some cases it does help, but I would challenge that comment that your levels do tell a story actually almost like a mime can tell a story without a word. The charming and intricate platforming is what sold me. Maybe if you had a character at the beginning telling you to go fetch my purse or something from the fire it might be cute, but I doubt I would really love it any more. ..and done badly might make it worse.

2009-08-07 21:50:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383

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I always try to fit in a story to a level that I liked making (only Fade at the moment :S). Thing is there isn't the facilities to produce a really nice story. You can make a decent stab at one just so there is a story but I doubt you could make it a story that people would play through just to find the end. So I think it's unfair to ask for levels to have a story just for the sake of it. You can put a lot of character into a level but I personally don't think LBP is built for good stories.

2009-08-07 22:03:00 Author: Shermzor Posts: 1330

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On the flip side, CCubbage Vertigo and any of the Hyper MrsSpookyBuz levels would be sorta ridiculous to have a story, but Splat Invaders series as well as the Darkness Falls would be not nearly as charming without a story. I like being used as an example.... But... exactly - if I'm doing an arcade action type of level, trying to "hammer" a story around it just doesn't make sense. But if I'm doing a story-based level than it makes sense. I think the issue that JackOfCourse may be running into is that his levels have sort-of a story "feel" to them. So, you have a bit more realistic setting such as a "flaming timberland". People may ask themselves "why AM I in a flaming timberland". Whereas the visuals in "Vertigo!" simply make no sense whatsoever - so it doesn't even occur to people that there SHOULD be a story... they're simply playing an arcade game. Not that I think JackOfCourse should change in any way. I totally understand where his levels are coming from - it's fun and unique challenges put in an interesting setting. And besides, when your levels appeal to such a wide audience range, it's kind of a moot point anyway to consider the minority. The majority have already spoken.

2009-08-07 22:12:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Yeah I agree that my levels are in a setting that could easily have a story. I guess the point is that, (without sounding like a spoilt 5 year old) they're MY levels, I should be able to do what I want. I suppose I'm just asking for too much when I want everyone to understand what I'm trying to do really Just because I put them in a 'real' setting doesn't mean I want or need to have a story there. Like I said earlier, I make levels like a test, seeing what different themes I can manage to pull off. They're just like my little concepts of what I would do if I was to make a story mode. Hence you get my take on the construction theme in 'Calamity Construction. It's like I'm making a portfolio of different 'worlds' and 'ideas' really. If I was to put them together and make a full story mode, of course I'd stick a plot in there!

2009-08-07 22:18:00 Author: jackofcourse Posts: 1494

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You're almost justifying yourself Jack, and it's unnecessary! Most of your levels have 5 stars, they won't go any higher with a few jokes in! ; )

2009-08-07 22:30:00 Author: julesyjules Posts: 1156

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I agree.... definately not saying I agree with those people (I know you've read my "Fair Feedback" thread) - I can just see why they may think a story belongs. I think the general public has a hard time being truly "objective", and it's a hard thing being scrutinized in LittleBigPlanet. Unfortunately, MOST people tend to judge levels based on inappropriate parameters - what they THINK it should be instead of on the merits of what it IS. I think, at least with me, this whole thing started with the way people were treating OCK's level "218". Amazing level, amazing story, fantastic dialogue..... but tons of people were complaining that there WAS a story!!!!!

2009-08-07 22:32:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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I like being used as an example.... LOL.. well, I knew you wouldn't take it the wrong way.

2009-08-07 22:36:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383

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A story should only be put in when necessary, or if the level's suitable enough. Personally, I have a knack for creating interesting worlds with far-fetched characters and intertwining plots and tales. LittleBIGPlanet is, of course, a level-creating platformer on a system dominated by shooters and racers. But, that doesn't mean it's not suitable for a story. In fact, I think on the contrary. Stories are absolutely suitable (when necessary) on a platformer. Look at the Mario series. Sure there isn't much of a plot (besides saving your girlfriend from a nasty gorilla- wait, that's Donkey Kong), but it DID spawn a story. A story that proved to be the world's best-selling franchise to this date. So it's not a question whether or not a good story is "possible" in LBP (look at squirlin's levels for further reference), but rather, whether or not a good story is needed in a level.

2009-08-07 23:14:00 Author: Outlaw-Jack Posts: 5757

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Simple... some designs use stories, others don't. In the past 30 years of video game history that's pretty much been it. If the level SEEMS like it needs a story behind it, than maybe it would improve it - but other than that, I can't think of a reason to have a story. Hey you there! You stole my post! .

2009-08-07 23:15:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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if i dont have a story in my level, i forget what im supposed to be doing.

2009-08-08 00:32:00 Author: RickTheRipper Posts: 345

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Levels dont need to have a story, but in my opinion, need a premise.If there is not a premise, i often find myself saying, "WTF am i doing?". For example the flaming timberland levels. It just feels sorta empty.

2009-08-08 00:34:00 Author: Jrange378 Posts: 573

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I was in the exact opposite position to you jackofcourse. My trilogy was a story and without the story there would have been no trilogy (some might think that wouldn't be a bad thing!). There were and still are a lot of comments complaining about the lack of game play. The reason for this is that I am useless at creating game play and so I can only create the things within my ability. You can please some of the people some of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time. Icey

2009-08-08 00:41:00 Author: IceMaiden Posts: 1057

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I just want to pop in and share with you what my husband said last night while we were playing your newest level... which we immensely enjoyed, btw... I said to him: "jack's worried that his levels need a story" to which he replied "i think it's better this way" so there you go. I agree with him. I like levels with stories, but not if there's too much story. I mostly am about just having fun, and your levels are fun.

2009-08-09 14:48:00 Author: xkappax Posts: 2569

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I enjoy stories, however I just know that I can't make them work! The level should use what works best for you...I never needed any backstory with your levels...they are perfect the way they are. I'm actually trying to limit my pallette & toolsets in my levels, since I tend to use a little of everything (in a completely random and unimaginative way )...I have another post explaining exactly what I expect when I enter one of your levels...having magic mouths would just lead to a puzzled shift in the ambience of a 'jackofcourse' level. I LOVED unlockable levels at one time, and I usually play video games based on the 100% completion principle (OCD ) IMHO, considering the profile issues with objects/stickers/keys, I think that the new goal is to have fun & populate the scoreboards of as many wonderful creations as possible...

2009-08-09 15:15:00 Author: miltonTPS Posts: 126

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LBP is not a book, the plotline isn't the most important element in the game. There are many games out there which they focus mainly on their storyline (Longest Journey for examlpe, i loved that game!) where as other games have a pretty much no story at all but still get people playing it! (counter strike and team fortress 2) Like most people have posted here, it's impossible to please the entire crowd! Critcs are merely giving you suggestions. In the end, it's YOUR work, and no one elses. ((Speaking of games with a story, The Path is amazing. Probably one of the best games to tell you a story without using words!))

2009-08-10 05:24:00 Author: snowyjoe Posts: 509

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i think if you can make a decent unique character or story then noones stopping you, but so far the best characters ive seen are the story mode characters and Gevurah22s dragon, and morganas characters

2009-08-13 08:58:00 Author: Kern Posts: 5078

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This series I'm working on will be the last I do. One, because space is running out on my moon and two, I'm a little tired of thinking up levels to follow a plot, and having to add more and more levels onto whats planned to keep the story OK. Both Siberia and Mars were planned as 3 part series, one is 6 parts, and the other will end up 6 parts. I'll be going back to creating one off levels after I'm done with this one, although, by that time, no one might actually be playing LBP to care

2009-08-13 20:00:00 Author: GruntosUK Posts: 1754

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After making a 'story' in my newest level I think my view may have slightly changed. I still don't think stories are needed (nor do I like them), if they're ridiculously text heavy and the story is the main focus. However, if it is a PREMISE, a reason to get from point A to B. I can understand that. I also think my opinion of stories got hit early on within this game. I seen so many that were poor and just uninteresting that it started to make me think all were going to be like that, hence just spamming the O as soon as many text bubble popped up. Playing a few levels with decent stories, listening to people's opinions of stories, and certainly making my own, has shown me that they can be a good addition. I still aren't a fan of real text heavy stuff. I'm talking about a premise, much in the same way as Mm's were done. Just a cause, a reason to get to some other place. As I said, I think my opinion of such things got spoilt by how poorly handled they are by the majority. Humour and tongue in cheek most certainly play a role for me too. This is a cute silly platforming game, if you try and make some dark brooding story, it's just going to fall on deaf ears with me.

2009-09-23 15:10:00 Author: jackofcourse Posts: 1494

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Nope, I don't think you need one. At least not a full fledged one. An opening premise is enough in my opinion, but if you won't you can of course write a whole story, just don't be disappointed if only a view bother to read it. This is after all a platforming game; or at least most people expect it to be a platformer. Even the "Story"-Mode doesn't really have a story in my opinion. Sure the levels are loosely linked together and the little grey-bird-thing in his rocket appears at the start or end of some levels, but calling that a story would go a bit too far. It's not a story you need to follow in order to have fun and I think that was the intention, because that would "ruin" it for the kids. Edit: Oh, this is an old thread and I already replied to it. As you can see my opinion hasn't changed.

2009-09-23 15:27:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193

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Then again you all got to think out side the box. A text box isn't the the only way to tell a story. I'm trying to create my current level with using as less speechbubbles as possible. Start of level, a happy village, middle of level sack boy enters the monsters layer, near end of level the happy village is burning and monsters are present in the area. Put 2 and 2 together and you have a story! It's not the greatest, but it is still a story. And it doesn't annoy the heck out of people that spam O (I'm one of them)

2009-09-23 23:05:00 Author: snowyjoe Posts: 509

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Bah, too much story ruins simple games like this. Look at what happened to poor Sonic.

2009-09-24 00:34:00 Author: Foofles Posts: 2278

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Yeh, a ton of text and not a lot else is completely tedious, but its like everything in this game, done well it can work. IceMaiden, Jack, Gruntos and Cubbage (for example) all make different types of levels, and they're all great for different reasons. Unless you've a very narrow view of what LBP is all about. You don`t need anything. To me the beauty of LBP is that so many different styles of levels exist. Some work better with a story and others don`t. Bang on.

2009-09-24 01:04:00 Author: julesyjules Posts: 1156

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Then again you all got to think out side the box. A text box isn't the the only way to tell a story. I'm trying to create my current level with using as less speechbubbles as possible. Start of level, a happy village, middle of level sack boy enters the monsters layer, near end of level the happy village is burning and monsters are present in the area. Put 2 and 2 together and you have a story! It's not the greatest, but it is still a story. And it doesn't annoy the heck out of people that spam O (I'm one of them) Exactly! Those strings of text bubbles can be annoying. I always think of the writer's adage: show, don't tell.

2009-09-24 10:28:00 Author: Rogar Posts: 2284

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I've made a steadfast rule for myself to not string text bubbles together. If I can't fit it into one text bubble, come up with something else to say, or another way to say it. It can really bring a level's pace to a halt if 8 or more text bubbles all line up at once. Back onto the general topic - If I had a bit more talent in designing fun gameplay, I think I MIGHT have less dialogue in my levels. But that's just not really what I do - If I sit down and design a fun level with lots of fun gameplay elements, I'll honestly probably just hit a massive creative block I can't get over. So instead I do what I do - I create mood, and try to create a compelling world to be in for a while. In setting the tone, I can't help but include lots of dialogue. I rarely put my mouths on cut-scenes, in case anyone wants to skip past them. So those are my two main rules - one text bubble per statement, no cutscenes unless necessary. But I literally have segments of levels that are nothing but essentially corridors filled with speaking characters. this is one of the ways I flesh out my level - I could replace those with a pure gameplay room, filled with obstacles. But I'm just not good with that stuff! But even with all that being said, with all that dialogue being in place - my levels still don't have much "story". In The Movies, it's "go see the movies!" That's the whole plot. There are fun twists that happen - for example, on your way, King Kong demolishes your home and by the end of the level you're living in a dumpster. But the "spine" of the level is simply "go to the movies!" After you've seen them, the level's over. Similarly with Sony Christmas. The spine of the level is: "Go get a PS3 for little Timmy!" Along the way you witness big events like a mob taking over a mall, the military intervening, and Santa Claus being nearly murdered for his PS3. He breaks his leg and you have to take over for him - but the level's over once you get the PS3 to little Timmy. I find that little bit of something at the beginning, the spine - a bit of motivation to get from A to B helps flesh out the world. And from there, you can play out the twists and turns in events and images rather than text. But if you're highly-skilled at creating pure, fun gameplay - as jackofcourse is, and I'm NOT - This becomes less and less of an issue. I think there's a curve. The better you are with the gameplay elements, the less you need story. LBP works very well as an abstract platformer. Games like Mario have the "lava level", the "desert level", the "ice level", the "sky level", etc. They're abstracts, they have nothing to do with story. They're interesting platformer settings - and I think that works very well with this game. it's just not something I'm talented enough to do! I'll always continue to pack my levels with satire, with mood, probably with dialogue, and with images above gameplay. And even they are still not necessarily story-based levels. The "plots" are paper-thin. The mood and imagery is what I spend most of my energy on.

2009-09-25 01:55:00 Author: Teebonesy Posts: 1937

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Honestly, I don't really enjoy levels without stories as much. Now, to be fair though, I should probably clarify what I mean by story. Story, at it's bare minimum, to me, is simply context. To me, a story could be told without a single text bubble. Black-Toof's "Artist's World" to me is a great story (to clarify, it does have text-bubbles, but alot of the story is done through action). The reason I would consider it a "story level" is simply because there is a reason for what's happening. I care about what happens. When ... "that thing happens" (non-spoiler)... it has an impact on me. I care. I care a heck of a lot more than if I just went ... "oh, look, the ball knocks that over and it becomes stairs". I don't mean this as criticism, as he's a creator that has clearly found his audience and caters to them with expert precision ... (braces for impact) ... but I'm pretty sure I've never hearted a jackofcourse level. Even his joke "story" level - which was witty and I appreciated for what it was - but it wasn't really my thing. I didn't care what was happening at all. Platforming, to me, is optional. It's just not my thing, because I really don't care about anything that's going on. I'm not the kind of person who plays Geometry Wars, for example. I don't play this game to jump on 1000 spinning circles, or spin shapes backwards and jump back across things. I'd much rather jump across marble pillars in some Roman ruins than unexplained pillars of sponge material. If you don't give me any real context - I'm just not going to enjoy your level so much. I don't need Shakespeare - heck, a few clever background animations are enough to tell an amusing story - but if it's a "level" and you're not giving me any kind of story, I do think less of it. Less may be more in some cases, but nothing is still nothing.

2009-09-27 01:14:00 Author: Jagrevi Posts: 1154

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After making a 'story' in my newest level I think my view may have slightly changed. I still don't think stories are needed (nor do I like them), if they're ridiculously text heavy and the story is the main focus. However, if it is a PREMISE, a reason to get from point A to B. I can understand that. I also think my opinion of stories got hit early on within this game. I seen so many that were poor and just uninteresting that it started to make me think all were going to be like that, hence just spamming the O as soon as many text bubble popped up. Playing a few levels with decent stories, listening to people's opinions of stories, and certainly making my own, has shown me that they can be a good addition. I still aren't a fan of real text heavy stuff. I'm talking about a premise, much in the same way as Mm's were done. Just a cause, a reason to get to some other place. As I said, I think my opinion of such things got spoilt by how poorly handled they are by the majority. Humour and tongue in cheek most certainly play a role for me too. This is a cute silly platforming game, if you try and make some dark brooding story, it's just going to fall on deaf ears with me. This depends how you go about making your "dark and brooding" story. Some are incredibly cheesy. I've been trying to beat Twysted Tales 3 for a while now, and to be honest, the story is kinda ridiculous in LBP. However, you also have levels like Siren: The Lost World which, so far, have been dark without being cheesy. It's the atmosphere, really. It makes you forget you're playing LBP and feels like playing a different game altogether. A dark story can be done, it's just people make them too text heavy or cheesy. Another good example would be Darkness Falls. It avoids trying to be dark through text. Instead, it drops tons of bloody arms on your and uses mainly brown materials.

2009-09-27 01:34:00 Author: qrtda235566 Posts: 3664

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Honestly, I don't really enjoy levels without stories as much. Now, to be fair though, I should probably clarify what I mean by story. Story, at it's bare minimum, to me, is simply context. To me, a story could be told without a single text bubble. Black-Toof's "Artist's World" to me is a great story (to clarify, it does have text-bubbles, but alot of the story is done through action). The reason I would consider it a "story level" is simply because there is a reason for what's happening. I care about what happens. When ... "that thing happens" (non-spoiler)... it has an impact on me. I care. I care a heck of a lot more than if I just went ... "oh, look, the ball knocks that over and it becomes stairs". I don't mean this as criticism, as he's a creator that has clearly found his audience and caters to them with expert precision ... (braces for impact) ... but I'm pretty sure I've never hearted a jackofcourse level. Even his joke "story" level - which was witty and I appreciated for what it was - but it wasn't really my thing. I didn't care what was happening at all. Platforming, to me, is optional. It's just not my thing, because I really don't care about anything that's going on. I'm not the kind of person who plays Geometry Wars, for example. I don't play this game to jump on 1000 spinning circles, or spin shapes backwards and jump back across things. I'd much rather jump across marble pillars in some Roman ruins than unexplained pillars of sponge material. If you don't give me any real context - I'm just not going to enjoy your level so much. I don't need Shakespeare - heck, a few clever background animations are enough to tell an amusing story - but if it's a "level" and you're not giving me any kind of story, I do think less of it. Less may be more in some cases, but nothing is still nothing. Well said, and I agree. I definitely enjoy the levels with a purpose more so than the ones that are just jumping around and collecting bubbles. I don't enjoy text heavy levels unless they are well written (but those are difficult to find). Trindall's "Lightbringer" level comes to mind. I loved everything about that level, and what made it extra special was definitely the story.

2009-09-27 01:44:00 Author: Powershifter Posts: 668

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I have started to make a proper level after almost a year of LBPing. *Gasp* I dont have a story yet. I am just adding obstacles and stuff as I go. Is it easy to add a story after, or should I not bother?

2009-09-27 02:59:00 Author: moleynator Posts: 2914

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I have started to make a proper level after almost a year of LBPing. *Gasp* I dont have a story yet. I am just adding obstacles and stuff as I go. Is it easy to add a story after, or should I not bother? You definitely should bother, but if it's not part of the early basis of the level, it shouldn't be too in depth. So go small story. Something like "Oh no, my chicken farm is being attacked by a chicken-crushing machine!". Don't add it after you do the level, but don't try to commit yourself to one now. Get a good sense of what the most important part of your level is, mechanically - what you want to happen in it, and once you build that come up with a story around it, and then build the rest of the level around that story. That's how I'd recommend doing it in your position.

2009-09-27 03:19:00 Author: Jagrevi Posts: 1154

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Everyone here is talking all about a GOOD story... But how about those levels that have a really bad story? I remember playing a level that was a very bad platformer, and had a even worse story!! "Oh hey brother! I need you to go find our dad that's been trapped inside the factory! Becarful about it's security system!" and at the end of the level "It was acutrally me! Your brother that captured our dad and imprisoned him in this factory! mwhahahaha!!!!!" I was like..... WTF? No depth in character, no explanation of settings.... Like Jagrevi said, if you didn't make the level with a story in mind, it's best to avoid a trying to make a deep story around it. A bad story turns me off even more than having no story at all. (I gave that level a 1 btw, if it wasn't for the story I probably gave it a 2)

2009-09-27 13:10:00 Author: snowyjoe Posts: 509

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The most enjoyable part of a story for me is seeing the characters. MM's story was very simple, but the funny characters made it charming. And they had great design, not just generic sackboy characters. I would love to see everyone here create an original character and upload it to the gallery on LBPC, or put them in a combined level as prizes or something.

2009-09-28 13:15:00 Author: midnight_heist Posts: 2513

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Quick answer...No. Long answer... While the level's you've made are "your" level's Jack. Anyone commenting saying that they think it "needs" a story...are NOT wrong. Thats their opinion of it, and as a creator, while you may want people to enjoy your level's for what you think worthy of praise...that ends up irrelevant when in the hands of a player because they will take merit on your level on their own terms. Now that doesn't mean you need to go making the type of level's you wouldn't normally just to please people of a different mindset. I'm sure there are loads of people who like your levels just as they are. Make levels you would want to play, take from feedback what you agree with and incoporate but don't forget that you can't please everyone. I'm a big fan of story based levels, I'm also a big fan of original gameplay mechanics...basically if its good its good regardless of the nature of interaction if I'm entertained I'm happy. So I wouldn't say complex stories have no place in LBP, infact there is a really good series by amazingflyingpoo, that many people (myself included) enjoy... it even has extra levels that just contain backstory and I think that its awesome that lbp can be a story telling device...not all levels have to be platformers do they?

2009-09-29 15:42:00 Author: dsgeeno1 Posts: 76

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I completely agree with dsgeeno1. Everyone will view through their own filters, as they are 100% entitled to do. Some people can manage to be objective and will recognise the value in others' creations that may not be their 'thing', others can't. The human mind is ultra complex. There's room for stories and for no stories in LBP - and crap stories as well as it often refines our taste and makes us appreciate the really good ones. And indeed the same is true for any forum or setting where people express themselves creatively. If someone comments on what they feel is not there and it's something you think "man, I should've thought of that - that's a great idea", then incorporate it. Otherwise, just hear what they have to say - be grateful they at least took the time to check it out - and then keep doing your own thing. You've gotta enjoy what you create or you'll stop doing it. I think artists (and LBP creators are artists) trying to convince others to see things their way, or that their way is the only correct way are in for a life of frustration and heartache. All any artist can do is use their talent to express what they are wanting to express. Some people will get it and feel a connection, others won't but the experience of seeing and considering others' perspectives or offerings is what gives us a broader mind, ultimately, whether it resonates with us or not. We are all guilty of ascribing that same method of judgement (that jackofcourse was initially taking issue with) to movies, books, music, art, fashion - and pretty much anything in the world around us when you think about it. We're very 'value' driven. What all LBP creators have in common is that we want to create an experience for the people who play our levels. Yeah, we may tend to base those 'experiences' on what we like ourselves but thank goodness... how boring would it be otherwise? Celebrate that diversity! And if people keep coming up to you with annoying comments and suggestions about what you've made, then you're simply no different than any other creative person throughout history.

2009-09-30 10:40:00 Author: BabyDoll1970 Posts: 1567

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