Archive: 76 posts

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I've been experimenting with this glitch a lot, and I thank Backscratch for introducing it to us - it's a fantastic find However, I do predict (yes...I do) that this will be patched up. God ****. BUT - I do think that creators are going to exploit this glitch so much to make such awesome levels with it that Mm are eventually going to introduce something similar, like a Create-a-theme. You can create, import and share custom themes which uses more layers both in front and the back of the level, just like you can using this glitch. Custom themes would absolutely rock! What do you think? They can't just patch it and leave us with nothing and I think this would be awesome.

2009-07-27 15:09:00 Author: KoRnDawwg Posts: 1424

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80% of a chance MM will patch, cause you're only suppose to have 3 layers. And more layers would ruin the fun. Even though I think there should be more.

2009-07-27 15:10:00 Author: Unknown User

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I asked Spaff not to patch it out right after I saw him finish bakscratch's level... ...but I'm not gonna hold my breath.

2009-07-27 15:16:00 Author: Unknown User

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Didn't the early presentations of LBP have like 5 layers instead of 3?

2009-07-27 16:03:00 Author: Arkei Posts: 1432

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The original plans were for like 7 layers if not more. The code is probably still somehow in the game. So how do you achieve this glitch? Was the first post of this thread edited? If yes, why? .

2009-07-27 20:35:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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The original plans were for like 7 layers if not more. The code is probably still somehow in the game. So how do you achieve this glitch? Was the first post of this thread edited? If yes, why? . Dude, we do have 7 layers... 3 thick layers and 4 thin layers, remember...?

2009-07-27 20:47:00 Author: Silverleon Posts: 6707

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He means 7 thick layers.

2009-07-27 20:50:00 Author: Arkei Posts: 1432

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The original plans were for like 7 layers if not more. The code is probably still somehow in the game. So how do you achieve this glitch? Was the first post of this thread edited? If yes, why? . Quite honestly, I have absolutely no idea how Backscratch found it out, but I know how to use it. I can tell ya but you'll need to get the 11 layers (front) object and the 8 back layers from the layer glitch level first.

2009-07-27 20:59:00 Author: KoRnDawwg Posts: 1424

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As I said in another thread, I now don't really care about this glitch, and I don't really care if Mm patch it or not. I kinda hope they don't patch it, as if I did that would just be selfish, I just think 3D environments don't look right in LBP. And I admit I might mess around with it once in a while, but I really doubt I'll use this glitch in any of my levels.

2009-07-27 21:56:00 Author: lk9988 Posts: 1077

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I don't know about any "plans" Mm had, but I'm pretty sure the GDC presentation had only one layer. That or they didn't bother switching + no auto-switching code yet. When I first saw this glitch I though "create your own backgrounds" But it seems that other people had different things in mind. In this case, "3D levels" To me, the 3D thing just ruins the 3 layer LBP feel. Even if you can't switch to these extra layers.

2009-07-27 23:14:00 Author: crazymario Posts: 657

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I'm sure it's being patched up, I have a feeling they're updating the News Moon as we speak. I also, don't like it as it ruins the feeling LBP has.

2009-07-28 00:28:00 Author: Whalio Cappuccino Posts: 5250

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The hell you guys are talking about with your "feel" and your "3D". LBP IS A 3D game. It's not 2D, it's 3D polygons. You can even go further in the background (change layer), this is Z axis, the third axis, it's 3D. It does play in way reminiscent of old 2D games sure, but those extra non-playable layers won't change anything in the gameplay. It can only help diversify the looks a little more (aka, it's a positive!!) Also, when you saw that Sonic had 30 more layers of parallax background than Mario, did you feel it was suddendly 3D or that it didn't feel like the platformer it was?? Anyhow, just enjoy guys. Or don't use it. Life is simple .

2009-07-28 00:32:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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The hell you guys are talking about with your "feel" and your "3D". LBP IS A 3D game. It's not 2D, it's 3D polygons. You can even go further in the background (change layer), this is Z axis, the third axis, it's 3D. It does play in way reminiscent of old 2D games sure, but those extra non-playable layers won't change anything in the gameplay. It can only help diversify the looks a little more (aka, it's a positive!!) Also, when you saw that Sonic had 30 more layers of parallax background than Mario, did you feel it was suddendly 3D or that it didn't feel like the platformer it was?? Anyhow, just enjoy guys. Or don't use it. Life is simple . It's a sudden change, and a LOT of people don't like change. You can't really use Mario and Sonic as an example, because those are two different games. We're still talking about the same LBP from the start, but now all of a sudden we're allowed 50 extra layers? That's change, and some people think it'll ruin the feel that LBP had before this glitch was found. I for one think it can be a great positive, but the way the community has been with other glitches, it'll only be exploited in far worse ways then we've seen. Not only will we see levels like 101 FREE COMMUNITY PRIZES!!!11! but now we have the introduction of THE 3-D LAYER OBJECT FREE COME AND GET IT PLZ THX HEART ME!!! Not to mention if this is actually hurting the game/servers somehow. Though that's just my two cents.

2009-07-28 00:41:00 Author: Whalio Cappuccino Posts: 5250

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There's another of these levels on the cool page 1 now from J-b-e-a-r I think it is that says someone from MM has contacted him and asked people to "Stop using the 50 layer glitch until September" because it's slowing down the servers ( We need that like a hole in the head , they're bad enough already ) and they are working on a version of their own. Sounds like this means 1 of 2 things to me : Either they don't want people using it because they want you to use their version Or the server issue is scheduled to be addressed sometime in September Or maybe both , who knows.

2009-07-28 00:50:00 Author: mistervista Posts: 2210

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It's a sudden change, and a LOT of people don't like change.[/B] Exactly what I am talking about. Forget my Mario Sonic thing if you don't get the analogy. People fear change even if it's good. It's just because it's change. Therefore it's people that need to work on themselves, not games to stay identical because "the change fearers" are out there. People like that don't even know they like change. They do. The paintinator was WAY MORE game changing than anything graphical. The last creator pack too. People liked it. They bathed in and realise it was a nice change. Why? because it was bringing more possibilities in. If we were giving a background editor someday you wouldn't try to do one? If there was a music edition tool you wouldn't try music? The point of LBP is to create and share. The more options / enhancements we have, the more rich our creations and experience would do. There's no possible negative way to see it really. If we could make even more beautifuller levels than StarCruisers thanks to knew layers, what do it remove from your experience? It can only bring to it. Oh and don't worry, this thing doesn't affect the servers. Their online create beta does. .

2009-07-28 00:52:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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Yeah, but THOSE changes don't rely on the user being a good creator. If a background editor were put in the game, we'd start thinking "This level sucks because the creator didn't use a custom background" rather than "This level sucks because it doesn't have a background" Trust me, people are that dumb.

2009-07-28 01:37:00 Author: crazymario Posts: 657

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Exactly what I am talking about. Forget my Mario Sonic thing if you don't get the analogy. People fear change even if it's good. It's just because it's change. Therefore it's people that need to work on themselves, not games to stay identical because "the change fearers" are out there. People like that don't even know they like change. They do. The paintinator was WAY MORE game changing than anything graphical. The last creator pack too. People liked it. They bathed in and realise it was a nice change. Why? because it was bringing more possibilities in. If we were giving a background editor someday you wouldn't try to do one? If there was a music edition tool you wouldn't try music? The point of LBP is to create and share. The more options / enhancements we have, the more rich our creations and experience would do. There's no possible negative way to see it really. If we could make even more beautifuller levels than StarCruisers thanks to knew layers, what do it remove from your experience? It can only bring to it. Oh and don't worry, this thing doesn't affect the servers. Their online create beta does. . Yeah, but THOSE changes don't rely on the user being a good creator. If a background editor were put in the game, we'd start thinking "This level sucks because the creator didn't use a custom background" rather than "This level sucks because it doesn't have a background" Trust me, people are that dumb. This. And the fact that this is a glitch. If MM was able to come out with something official, I wouldn't mind, but this was never meant to be used. And the online creation beta is on it's own server I believe, so I don't think it's that, but just a guess.

2009-07-28 01:40:00 Author: Whalio Cappuccino Posts: 5250

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What server behaviors are you guys talking about? I haven't noticed anything unusual in the past few weeks.

2009-07-28 02:46:00 Author: Unknown User

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I agree with crazymario that that people would shun levels made before the glitch, but that is the only thing that would be a problem if MM decided to let us use 50 layers.

2009-07-28 02:59:00 Author: ValinKrai Posts: 21

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I hate it when bugz and glitchez take the spotlight. People praise it, then attempt to recreate it, then the developer fixes it, which then the people flame the developer for deleting it. It's just a GLITCH. It will go away. And most likely, those who display it prominitely will recieve consequences. But... since multiple layers is possible on the PS3, perhaps a new patch or the sequel will allow that. For now, though, we should play it safe and just leave it alone.

2009-07-28 03:14:00 Author: Outlaw-Jack Posts: 5757

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Wait, what is this backscratch glitch all of you are talking about? I'm clueless I was just gone for a day.. D: EDIT: Nevermind, did a little lurking and found it

2009-07-28 12:05:00 Author: AwesomePossum Posts: 446

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if the rumors are true and it is slowing the servers down and if loads of people keep using the glitch in their levels, then Mm will probably be forced to bring the entire server down till september. Ill get super mega withdrawl

2009-07-28 12:38:00 Author: theamilien Posts: 485

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naw, they wouldn't shut it down. they'd probably delete all the levels that use the glitch and then patch it as fast as they could. or maybe they'd just sit back and laugh at everyone

2009-07-28 14:24:00 Author: RickTheRipper Posts: 345

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or maybe they'd just sit back and laugh at everyone This, exactly.

2009-07-28 15:58:00 Author: crazymario Posts: 657

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Yeah, but THOSE changes don't rely on the user being a good creator. If a background editor were put in the game, we'd start thinking "This level sucks because the creator didn't use a custom background" rather than "This level sucks because it doesn't have a background" Trust me, people are that dumb. This is 100% irrelevant because regardless the features the game is having, people will perceive certain things as "bad". If you want to solve this problem, you need to remove everything (of course it's not a solution) Adding nice features is always good. People are complaining all the time, it's the human nature. Remember that classic video where the rich girl was crying and really shocked when the car she's been offered by her father was blue instead of the red color she asked for. Regardless the level of features you have, people will always find something to complain so it's irrelevant to be worried about this. .

2009-07-28 17:52:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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This is 100% irrelevant because regardless the features the game is having, people will perceive certain things as "bad". If you want to solve this problem, you need to remove everything (of course it's not a solution) Not really. Making your own background is much harder than choosing a premade background.

2009-07-28 18:53:00 Author: crazymario Posts: 657

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I was just saying somewhere else - "I'm gonna play with it, but there's no way I'm going to be able to get a level longer than 5 minutes trying to make the new layers as detailed as I already do with the main 3. In my designs I've always tried to eliminate negative space and dead air, and prevent use of 3 layers for things like a long walk or short platforming segment, where 1 layer would be fine. Perhaps this very small-scale, self contained story and event driven level I've had rattling around in my head would be good for this. I wonder if people will start to think about levels like this - "Well, it looks and plays great, but you didn't use all 200 layers so I gave it 3 stars" - hopefully it becomes a thing used when needed, like the sackhouette, anti-color and pixelation effects." I definitely see myself using it for select effects as needed... just like thin-thick layers, but the thermometer simply will not allow for the best looking levels out there to exist on all these planes with the same visual quality and level of detail without majorly sacrificing length. When the dust settles, and people are done making average looking and playing levels on all layer, this is going to be something that's tailor made for innovative concepts rather than standard use. Even if a candyk gets ahold of it and does what they did with thin-thick layers, I seriously doubt MM will start using this in future level packs - that acts almost as a statement to what the "ideal" design choice is and will be.

2009-07-28 19:38:00 Author: Unknown User

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For now, though, we should play it safe and just leave it alone. the other outlaws are going to start thinking your getting soft

2009-07-28 19:50:00 Author: deboerdave Posts: 384

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the other outlaws are going to start thinking your getting soft Yeah, yeah... the other outlaws are going to think why I killed them for thinkin' that. :kz:

2009-07-28 19:57:00 Author: Outlaw-Jack Posts: 5757

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I agree with crazymario that that people would shun levels made before the glitch, but that is the only thing that would be a problem if MM decided to let us use 50 layers. This is not a problem because old level aren't played anymore. You have 7 days of glory and after that you fall into oblivion. Not really. Making your own background is much harder than choosing a premade background. In this case, you chose a premade? I don't get where you're going. It's not because there's a tool or feature that you have to use it. But it's great to have more features to open up the creativity and help the community having longer legs. I was just saying somewhere else - "I'm gonna play with it, but there's no way I'm going to be able to get a level longer than 5 minutes trying to make the new layers as detailed as I already do with the main 3. In my designs I've always tried to eliminate negative space and dead air, and prevent use of 3 layers for things like a long walk or short platforming segment, where 1 layer would be fine. Never happen to you to want more backgrounds? Everytime I think of level i'm asking myself "wich background will really fit my idea?". You wouldn't like to be in a forest with a forest background and then you enter a cave and you have a cave background? I can't imagine background edition not being totally inspiring... .

2009-07-28 20:11:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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In this case, you chose a premade? I don't get where you're going. Obviously not. It's not because there's a tool or feature that you have to use it. But it's great to have more features to open up the creativity and help the community having longer legs. I said it before, people are just THAT dumb. Unfortunately, when a new feature starts getting popular, people start thinking that levels are only good if they use that feature. Those are called newbies. And there are a lot of them... It's different with the tools that came with the creator pack and MGS pack. While they still have the same effect on the so-called "newbies", they are easier to use, and don't require any further experience than the already used pick-it-from-your-popit-and-drop-it-in-your-level system. A background editor requires artistic experience, meaning there's the possibility of a crappy background.

2009-07-28 20:25:00 Author: crazymario Posts: 657

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My feeling on the matter is.... I think it would be GREAT to have more layers BUT I personally don't like glitches. The whole thing kind of gives me a headache - should I USE the glitch and possibly create instability and chance my level not being forward compatible with newer releases of LBP? Should I NOT use the glitch and chance other people's levels appearing better than mine? Glitches create an unnecessary dilemma. I would like the feature, but I would like it as an ACTUAL feature and not something that can mess other things up. Now, MM may eventually make it a feature but it will take a while - the LBP editor is simply not very good at working with layers (such as working behind layers, temporarily removing layers, and the such) so in order to keep the level editor intuitive it would probably be a while before we would see this included.

2009-07-28 20:48:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Never happen to you to want more backgrounds? Everytime I think of level i'm asking myself "wich background will really fit my idea?". You wouldn't like to be in a forest with a forest background and then you enter a cave and you have a cave background? I can't imagine background edition not being totally inspiring... . I've been talking this subject to death already... go check out the recommendations forum. Of course I have, but these aren't prerendered streaming CGI backgrounds... they're physical objects, that take up thermometer space. Look at any of my levels... take one of my most detailed set pieces, and imagine me doing something this detailed on 20 layers - I would have the thermometer full before I even get done with the first area. I have no interest in seeing green sponge or blue glass extended into the horizon and foreground with nothing on it but a couple objects and a few stickers, just as I have no interest in a 3 plane corridor with nothing in it but a walk and a jump - a narrow dirt road with lush scenery is better than a 6 lane highway with nothing on it. I also have never been a fan of faux artistry that people go gaga over. silhouette effects and glass/fog color tricks - this is not craftsmanship or artistry, it's a gimmick, used to mask a very basic and plain level design in a pretty package. A crutch as it were. jump_button's using it for something that is of great effect, and I approve.

2009-07-28 21:06:00 Author: Unknown User

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Obviously not. I said it before, people are just THAT dumb. Unfortunately, when a new feature starts getting popular, people start thinking that levels are only good if they use that feature. Those are called newbies. And there are a lot of them... It's different with the tools that came with the creator pack and MGS pack. While they still have the same effect on the so-called "newbies", they are easier to use, and don't require any further experience than the already used pick-it-from-your-popit-and-drop-it-in-your-level system. A background editor requires artistic experience, meaning there's the possibility of a crappy background. So using a tool like the lighting changing one with all it's settings is easier to use than simply taking a material and putting it on a layer? No way. I've been talking this subject to death already... go check out the recommendations forum. Of course I have, but these aren't prerendered streaming CGI backgrounds... they're physical objects, that take up thermometer space. Look at any of my levels... take one of my most detailed set pieces, and imagine me doing something this detailed on 20 layers - I would have the thermometer full before I even get done with the first area. I have no interest in seeing green sponge or blue glass extended into the horizon and foreground with nothing on it but a couple objects and a few stickers, just as I have no interest in a 3 plane corridor with nothing in it but a walk and a jump - a narrow dirt road with lush scenery is better than a 6 lane highway with nothing on it. I also have never been a fan of faux artistry that people go gaga over. silhouette effects and glass/fog color tricks - this is not craftsmanship or artistry, it's a gimmick, used to mask a very basic and plain level design in a pretty package. A crutch as it were. jump_button's using it for something that is of great effect, and I approve. But everything and any features they would add, anything you put in your level takes thermo. Where's the problem now? You can full your thermo out of anything but you're not. Why? Because you weight it while creating. If there was a background in the mix, you would weight it in your thermo just like anything else. Your example doesn't make sense. Why would you made the background as detail as foreground? Why would you become suddendly stupid and unable to manage your thermo anymore? Another thing: You don't have to see it on the horizon as you say. Not only it the glitch we have right now you can use L2 or R2 to put in the layer you want, at the tickness you want but if it was a feature it wouldn't be clumsy or glitchy, it would be as simple as putting materials on any layers. Lastly, how can you judge art styles? People express themselve BOTH through gameplay and visuals. It's even more then that, you can also tell a story, express yourself sonically too (while this later one feels limited a bit). Why the narrow point of view about creation?? -------------------- My point is WHY this fear of creativity? Why this fear of opening the game up more? There isn't any possible bad about this. The game is about creativity. What would it remove from you if there was such a possible customisation? If nothing is removed from you, it's impossible you don't want this. It's either that or you guys can't grasp the possibilities and what it could bring on the visual side of things. .

2009-07-29 00:52:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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I can judge it the same way I judge anything else... the same way we all do. Some levels look amazing, some look good, some look decent or average, some look bad, some look terrible. I wasn't knocking anyone who uses the techniques in conjunction with skill and craftsmanship... it's what you do with it that counts, but people are quick to think that turning up the fog and darkness on their basic level is going to make it look good. Alot of people react to it as if it's amazing as well, when it's just a bunch of triangles, squares, and haphazardly placed stickers underneath. Someone like Miglioshin or Allerian uses the silhouette to great effect to enhance a solid foundation of artistry in terms of shape, design, and etching for example - this is not often the case. jump_button's black and white levels look amazing not because he played with the color correction, it's because he carefully crafted beautiful things that are complimented and enhanced by it... such as his fences and thorny vines. From my experience, the average player can't tell the difference between that level of craftsmanship and skill and any other level with a "neat" color correction and stickering effect that doesn't look half as good. I have no interest in seeing extra wide levels with less detail and craftsmanship on everything to facilitate their presence, anymore than I want to see long levels with no detail. A sacrifice in visual quality is fine if it's for the sake of gameplay. I can sum it up like this... a full thermometer with 3 layers that look absolutely amazing is going to be better than a full thermometer with 10 layers of bland, drab, empty space. In order to put starcruiser on 10 layers... you'd have to cut the length of the level down to 1/4th what it is (it's short already) and probably really cut down on the geometry and sticker use. I have nothing against your idea for ease of use, or the glitch being a functional tool itself, I just don't see anything good coming out of it other than using it for select effects in certain areas (on room survival games that might not need a full thermometer could benefit from it), or the occasional moment of genius someone has with it... only because a fully rendered background using the thermometer space (since these are physical objects like anything else) is either going to have to be ugly as sin or eat up the thermometer like crazy.

2009-07-29 01:12:00 Author: Unknown User

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I saw the one level where they did the intro or preview only.. That was pretty cool looking. I am curious how much thermo all that took. It could make for some interesting intro's if done properly. I think it depends on how it is used. Using it just for the sake of using it or using it badly could be well.. just another bleah level or one that just makes it confusing to realize where you are in the normal layers. I doubt if I worry about it on an actual level until I know for sure it is staying around. Until now, it seems most glitches are usually fixed at some point and it would be a bit of a waste to utilize quite a bit of energy towards something that could go away in a few months. So sure... if anyone does it I will play and enjoy them, but I will probably lean more on the side of wait and see. Until then, I might do something just for fun with it.. like the character competition or something.

2009-07-29 01:41:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383

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I can judge it the same way I judge anything else... the same way we all do. Some levels look amazing, some look good, some look decent or average, some look bad, some look terrible. I wasn't knocking anyone who uses the techniques in conjunction with skill and craftsmanship... it's what you do with it that counts, but people are quick to think that turning up the fog and darkness on their basic level is going to make it look good. Alot of people react to it as if it's amazing as well, when it's just a bunch of triangles, squares, and haphazardly placed stickers underneath. You see, this is exactly what I am questioning. The sense of your opinion there. If you're not against the good use of a feature or tool, why wouldn't you want people to benefit from it? The logic is the same with all features and tool. You don't want the fog option removed because someone will use it stupidly. It's the same thing with background. Why do you care about someone that would make a bad looking background? Why suddendly you wouldn't be for opening up the game? How come bad levels with paintinator (and there was a plethora of crappy ones in the first months) didn't make you say "we shouldn't have such feature" ?? I see logic in your opinion that you apply to "apple 01" that you suddendly reverse for "apple 02". You get what I mean? People can make crap with any game enhancement. How is that a reason for not wanting the enhancement?? Why not reverse your half empty glass and wanting improvement so you be playing the nicely created levels? Craps levels will ALWAYS be there, why factor them since you can't get rid of them? It just appear as negative thinking to me. Those who love this game should like to see it flourish. .

2009-07-29 01:46:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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You should have bolded this part too - "I have nothing against your idea for ease of use, or the glitch being a functional tool itself"

2009-07-29 01:51:00 Author: Unknown User

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Craps levels will ALWAYS be there The definition for "Crap levels" will change with the ADDITION of a background editor.

2009-07-29 02:01:00 Author: crazymario Posts: 657

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I don't really like the "3D" glitch (which I don't understand because the game is 3D in the first place). I didn't like the "First 3D level" level. To me, it was an eyesore, and at times, really confusing. I like just the 3 layers better. I'll be more excited for the 2D glitch.

2009-07-29 02:44:00 Author: qrtda235566 Posts: 3664

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The definition for "Crap levels" will change with the ADDITION of a background editor. Not really. Crap is crap at the end of the day.

2009-07-29 07:45:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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I have no interest in seeing extra wide levels with less detail and craftsmanship on everything to facilitate their presence, anymore than I want to see long levels with no detail. A sacrifice in visual quality is fine if it's for the sake of gameplay. I can sum it up like this... a full thermometer with 3 layers that look absolutely amazing is going to be better than a full thermometer with 10 layers of bland, drab, empty space. In order to put starcruiser on 10 layers... you'd have to cut the length of the level down to 1/4th what it is (it's short already) and probably really cut down on the geometry and sticker use. I have nothing against your idea for ease of use, or the glitch being a functional tool itself, I just don't see anything good coming out of it other than using it for select effects in certain areas (on room survival games that might not need a full thermometer could benefit from it), or the occasional moment of genius someone has with it... only because a fully rendered background using the thermometer space (since these are physical objects like anything else) is either going to have to be ugly as sin or eat up the thermometer like crazy. I don't think you're giving your fellow creators enough credit. Just because the extra layers are available, it doesn't mean they all need to be used and I'm sure the better creators on LBP would use it very wisely. If you think thermo space would have been better spent elsewhere, chances are they will too. You shouldn't write it off because the lousy creators won't use it responsibly. Are you likely to be playing their levels much anyway?

2009-07-29 09:35:00 Author: Kiminski Posts: 545

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My gripe with this is that most people don't undersrtand visual cues anyway, and don't understand the subtleties of using three consistant interactive layers. Add the inconsistancy of extra, non-interactive layers and expect creators to be able to construct a scene that is visually appealing and has enough subliminal information to instantly tell you what is interactive and what isn't, without any concious thought on the part of the player... Not going to happen. From what I have seen of the community and what I have seen of this glitch, there is a tiny subset that would be able to use it well, to create a visual effect without a negative impact on gameplay. Rather than the QA effort spent on this to create something that hardly anyone can use well, I'd rather see QA and dev time spent on producing new tools and enhancements to the gameplay along with fixes for all of the annoyances in create mode.

2009-07-29 09:49:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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It's a shame how quickly this has spread...but I guess it's one less secret for me to keep now. Another thing, why is this being dubbed the '3D glitch'? It doesn't make the game any more 3D than it ever was...the 3D glitch is the one with the massive button. 0iz!

2009-07-29 11:03:00 Author: ARD Posts: 4291

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That one doesn't make the level "3D" either. 3D glasses don't do anything to it. You'd have a better chance making a "3D" level with Crayola 3D marker glasses, and putting alot of red in your level. Also... I getcha 100%, rtm. You too, awesomemans.

2009-07-29 11:56:00 Author: Unknown User

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Another thing, why is this being dubbed the '3D glitch'? one person called it "3D" in the first place, and everybody follows ... It should just be called "Extra layers Glitch" or something like that. For me, I will not use this, cause it's a glitch and it may cause some others problems, and it's not practical to use, so I don't want to waste time on this and prefer to focus on the 3 main layers. But sure it would be very cool if MM include (officialy) that function, and I will be the first one to use it, cause It gives such more possibilities for the visual creation, essentially for the background. Sure it will not allows very detailled and realistic backgrounds as the MM pre-made ones, but it helps giving some life to the empty basic background (whatever color it is) if we don't want to use the MM ones cause they don't fit to the theme of the level. And I think that 10 layers, it's too much! Just 2 or 3 additionnal back layers are enough to create a nice background depth and a little scenery. And that will keep the original feeling of 2.5D simplicity and charm proper to LBP (too much depth kills the depth...)

2009-07-29 13:58:00 Author: dajdaj03 Posts: 1486

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Just 2 or 3 additionnal back layers are enough to create a nice background depth and a little scenery. And that will keep the original feeling of 2.5D simplicity and charm proper to LBP (too much depth kills the depth...) High five! This would be awesome. .

2009-07-29 15:48:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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High five! This would be awesome. . Actually, I'm interested in 1 or 2 FOREGROUND layers. Being able to give you the feeling you're ACTUALLY in a room by having a foreground layer and zooming in without seeing the edges of the foreground material also creates more immersion. Or think of walking through the woods and walking behind thick trees without losing your 3 thick layers. Very cool thought. From a thermo perspective, also - design such as this would not necessarily take more thermo. You may be using the same number of trees and the same material, you would just put it in layers that don't affect gameplay.

2009-07-29 15:54:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Then you'd have the regular 3 layers full of negative space because the blockade of trees are in the -1 layer... unless you built that area with less regular, interactive layers to facilitate the design choice of using the non-interactive foreground for a layer of trees. This would ultimately result in the exact same thing as using up one or two of the regular 3 layers to begin with and only make your construction process more difficult and the navigation of the level more of a hassle for the player. I was playing around with L.O.V.E. earlier, and I added 4 layers in total of background foreground "sidewalk" and extended the "perspective" of the two main building structures. I used all the same materials, and it's all squares - no complex geometry, or excessive stickering involved in the additions. With all materials already selected, and all thermometers already being worked to their current status, when thermometer growth is at it's most forgiving, the result was a full block of thermometer being added on. That was entirely without any additional detail, stickers or objects of any kind being used. All I achieved with that block of thermometer was a wide sidewalk with nothing on it, that look arguably worse than the metro BG floor that was already there. A tastefully placed tree here and there, in such a scenario, would definitely add to things, but a whole row for a maintained visual foreground and background effect is simply counter intuitive and counter productive. If you want to make a level like thi667's that looks sparse and empty, a visual gimmick that's not actually nice to look at beyond being a wondrous spectacle... then yeah, it won't take up too much thermometer to incorporate the continuous use of an extra layer for a custom background and depth effect... but if you want to do something as detailed, lush and visually stimulating as should be expected from an excellent creator's work then you're going to have to substantially sacrifice the length of your levels more than ever before. By extension, that limitation on space, scope, and scale is going to also severely limit your opportunities to explore the theme, the gameplay, and the narrative experience. Unless you pick and choose your use off this feature you're shooting yourself in the foot. Certain designs and aesthetics can pull this off... blocky VR levels, something like H.A.T.E. - but if H.A.T.E. were to make use of this to make it have a full foreground, the last two or three rooms would have to be cut out, if not more. The best scarce use of this I can think of so far is for something like mrsupercomputers "tiny objects" faux depth effects... an enhancement, not a foundation. Gilgamesh is building an amazing level centered around a self contained apartment building - unless he plans to relocate the player elsewhere, it would be a perfect opportunity to properly exploit the extra front layers for what you mention - a realistic sense of special relation in an indoor environment, since the 3 layers are already being optimized for both design and gameplay as it stands. Of course, if he had to choose between adding in more interactivity, more gameplay, and more narration and NPC's I'd rather him opt for that.

2009-07-29 16:25:00 Author: Unknown User

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Foreground and background layers don't affect gameplay, what the hell. It's just immersion. And no there's no technique to reproduce the effect accurately except if you do something like I did in Crazy Train with my background. And yet again, my Crazy Train isn't awesome as it would be with TRUE layering. You guys seems to think through this so much that you lose the point or should I say, you miss the beauty of the paysage 'cause you're looking at each blade of grass seperately. Take a look at Yoshi's Island or again Donkey Kong Country 2. I just want to show how background and foreground layers can really bring to visual experience. Please note that even in those professional game the foreground and background layers are less detailed and minimalistic. They don't interfere in any way with the gameplay and they just bring some more depth to the visuals. This would also be welcomed in LittleBigPlanet and personally I would so totally use it. In my new level Sack's On The Beach I could have some dune that you feel is REALLY passing nearer the camera. I would have building and palm trees in the background to feel you're in a bigger place. It would be like 5-6 objects, probably not placed more than 2 times each. Yet it would give ALOT more depth and interest to the visuals and it wouldn't interfere the gameplay. I still fail the see the negatives new "deco layers" could bring I'm sorry. And not the possibility of people making crappy levels isn't a negative if ever you guys want to pull it off again. .

2009-07-29 17:30:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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Foreground and background layers don't affect gameplay, what the hell. It's just immersion. And no there's no technique to reproduce the effect accurately except if you do something like I did in Crazy Train with my background. And yet again, my Crazy Train isn't awesome as it would be with TRUE layering. You guys seems to think through this so much that you lose the point or should I say, you miss the beauty of the paysage 'cause you're looking at each blade of grass seperately. Take a look at Yoshi's Island or again Donkey Kong Country 2. I just want to show how background and foreground layers can really bring to visual experience. Please note that even in those professional game the foreground and background layers are less detailed and minimalistic. They don't interfere in any way with the gameplay and they just bring some more depth to the visuals. This would also be welcomed in LittleBigPlanet and personally I would so totally use it. In my new level Sack's On The Beach I could have some dune that you feel is REALLY passing nearer the camera. I would have building and palm trees in the background to feel you're in a bigger place. It would be like 5-6 objects, probably not placed more than 2 times each. Yet it would give ALOT more depth and interest to the visuals and it wouldn't interfere the gameplay. I still fail the see the negatives new "deco layers" could bring I'm sorry. And not the possibility of people making crappy levels isn't a negative if ever you guys want to pull it off again. . Yeah, I'm with you. I was saying the same thing about having a tree pass by close without effecting the normal play area. In all honesty, Starship Troopers would have used LESS thermo if I had that ability because I wanted to have depth on the roof of the building without the player being able to move to another layer and around the charging bug - in order to accomplish this I had to use a WHOLE BUNCH of invisible strands of rubber to prevent moving to another plane. If I had a foreground layer that I could place the roof in for depth, I could have saved a ton of edge thermo and made the level look better. Ninja - the main thing is that if you have the tools you can learn how to use them properly and efficiently to make better levels. I think what RangerZero is saying is why take away the tool because you haven't thought of how it could benefit you YET?

2009-07-29 18:00:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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This would come in very handy on a couple of sections where I'm currently trying all sorts of tricks to create a big sense of depth. The background is fogged up as it's at odds with the effect i'm going for and something as simple as having a textured wall way beyond the back layer would certainly do the job. I'm not mucking around with it in a 3/4 finished level though, the risk of it creating any unforeseen problems is too scary. Looking forward to seeing what folks can do with it tho!

2009-07-29 19:08:00 Author: julesyjules Posts: 1156

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This would come in very handy on a couple of sections where I'm currently trying all sorts of tricks to create a big sense of depth. The background is fogged up as it's at odds with the effect i'm going for and something as simple as having a textured wall way beyond the back layer would certainly do the job. I'm not mucking around with it in a 3/4 finished level though, the risk of it creating any unforeseen problems is too scary. Looking forward to seeing what folks can do with it tho! Copy the level to somewhere on your moon and play around with that copy

2009-07-29 19:42:00 Author: dorien Posts: 2767

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I was thinking of that, using a copy just to get the effect i want and then importing that small piece i need once the levels finished. It still bothers me though, cos always need to tweak it well after it's 'done'. I have a glitch with the Death Star level which causes it to crash every time i rewind more than once, which made editing REALLY fun. I'm not going through that again!

2009-07-29 19:49:00 Author: julesyjules Posts: 1156

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Foreground and background layers don't affect gameplay, what the hell. It's just immersion............. I'm ok with what you say, but I'm not for very sure about foreground layers, maybe a little difficult to use, cause it must not hide the 3 mains layers for visibility and gameplay... must be used smartly... As i said, it's important to keep LBP its simplicity and visual concept.. If MM decide to do this offficial, I would say : Background (behind the actual gameplay layers) 4 more layers = 1 big + 1 thin + 1 big + 1 thin Foreground (in front of the actual gameplay layers) 2 more layers = 1 big + 1 thin and that's it!! It's very enough to do a lot of things... (that's just my opinion...)

2009-07-29 20:12:00 Author: dajdaj03 Posts: 1486

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I'm ok with what you say, but I'm not for very sure about foreground layers, maybe a little difficult to use, cause it must not hide the 3 mains layers for visibility and gameplay... must be used smartly... As i said, it's important to keep LBP its simplicity and visual concept.. If MM decide to do this offficial, I would say : Background (behind the actual gameplay layers) 4 more layers = 1 big + 1 thin + 1 big + 1 thin Foreground (in front of the actual gameplay layers) 2 more layers = 1 big + 1 thin and that's it!! It's very enough to do a lot of things... (that's just my opinion...) Yes. Even with this minimum it would be enough to create some awesome visuals. .

2009-07-29 20:24:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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Ninja - the main thing is that if you have the tools you can learn how to use them properly and efficiently to make better levels. I think what RangerZero is saying is why take away the tool because you haven't thought of how it could benefit you YET? I really hope you're using "you" as a general term for this issue. In no way, shape or form, have I said people shouldn't use it at all.... or that it should be taken away. As soon as I saw Spaff finish thi's level I immediately sent him a message saying "Please don't patch this layer glitch out. The parallax possibilities are immense" How many ideas have I been kicking around in here on how it can be used effectively and examples of people already using it effectively? Jaeyden and I were just es excited as everyone else when we spent 5 hours trying to figure it out, and threw back ideas on how it can be used every other minute. I'm not shortsighted and narrow minded enough to fail to see BOTH the positive and the negative in something. There's absolutely no way around it. Use of this will require thermometer space, like anything else, and must be planned for accordingly. If it's not used properly, the levels are going to end up less rewarding both visually and in terms of gameplay - a gimmick at best. Even in your ST example, which is sound, if your gameplay wasn't designed to be rewarding on a single plane like it is, it would ultimately be a poor use of the effect. All that it is, is proper planning and design, that any level needs, regardless of the techniques it uses. If you do shift it all back a plane, and free up some space, might I suggest some fixtures on the roof such as antennas, radio towers, or roof-access doors... all that empty space would be an eyesore and IMO you'd want to save some thermometer space for small details too.

2009-07-30 02:11:00 Author: Unknown User

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Yes, I was using it in a general term (should have said "people"). But I think it all comes down in the end to how skilled the creator is. This would certainly add a new "dimension" to skill and planning. It would certainly use more thermo, however..... so does 2 and 3 layers. In the case of ST, I could have shifted the entire rooftop forward 1 layer, left out the invisible rubber - which would have saved enough thermo to add additional decorations to the level (at this point I have completely run out of edge thermo because of the rubber). All I'm saying is I don't think it's really a thermo issue since you (general sense!) have the same considerations no matter how many planes you decide to use. However, I do agree that it would require additional planning and skill to pull it off - and also in the case of ST I could have also stretched the thickess of the roof back far enough to make it look like a REAL roof in depth, without hardly using any thermo - it would be a single piece of material stretching into the distance. Obviously it's the way you use it, not necessarily that the feature is there. As a programmer, many times I'm thankful that my development tools have weird features that may appear at first to be pretty obscure - until I suddenly think of a really cool way to use them.

2009-07-30 02:32:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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in the case of ST I could have also stretched the thickess of the roof back far enough to make it look like a REAL roof in depth, without hardly using any thermo - it would be a single piece of material stretching into the distance. Certain designs and aesthetics can pull this off... blocky VR levels, something like H.A.T.E. - Yup... square shapes can pull it off. Jaeyden's already replaced a thin-thick building skyline in one of his projects with several layers of parallax buildings... looks much better and the gameplay scenario only needs two planes with no visible ground. Something like a rocky cave is going to have a hard time adding another layer in, let alone 4 to 50+ - of course, a few stalactites and stalagmites jettisoning up or down from behind some thin layers through small openings might make for great effect with no discernible base or point of entry. It will just draw the eye, in a Mignola-horizon kind of way. Don't get too carried away though, and try to mirror your interactive terrain line-for-line. I'm not trying to shut down anyone's ideas, I'm more or less brainstorming on it with you guys... it's a force of habit for me to juggle the pros and cons of something before implementing it. It saves me alot of wasted effort when I realize I can achieve more with less sooner, rather than later.

2009-07-30 02:46:00 Author: Unknown User

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Yup... square shapes can pull it off. Jaeyden's already replaced a thin-thick building skyline in one of his projects with several layers of parallax buildings... looks much better and the gameplay scenario only needs two planes with no visible ground. Something like a rocky cave is going to have a hard time adding another layer in, let alone 4 to 50+ - of course, a few stalactites and stalagmites jettisoning up or down from behind some thin layers through small openings might make for great effect with no discernible base or point of entry. It will just draw the eye, in a Mignola-horizon kind of way. Don't get too carried away though, and try to mirror your interactive terrain line-for-line. I'm not trying to shut down anyone's ideas, I'm more or less brainstorming on it with you guys... it's a force of habit for me to juggle the pros and cons of something before implementing it. It saves me alot of wasted effort when I realize I can achieve more with less sooner, rather than later. Of course..... something like Vertigo! Could use 50 layers no problem. My complex shape thermo is at about 2%.... There's nothing that says a level needs to be big - if someone wants to make a cave mini-game with 50 layers, well hey! That could be the best looking 1 screen level that uses 98% of the thermo around!

2009-07-30 02:57:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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I'll do it. We all know how much I like caves.

2009-07-30 03:37:00 Author: xkappax Posts: 2569

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I'll do it. We all know how much I like caves. "The 50 layer entrance to the Crystal Cave in Autumn". The prettiest 8 seconds of gameplay you've ever experienced!

2009-07-30 16:14:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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This is pretty much a repeat, so sorry in advance! I think if used properly, I think it would be an awesome effect. Vertigo if done with this might give you a cool tunnel effect which could be pretty awesome. Though some might get even more dizzy!! Maybe I am a bit overly concerned, but I would still caution investing a ton of time into something to find out it goes away or worse, none of it shows up any longer after a possible upcoming patch. ...or even worse, somehow cause the level not to load. Now if it stays around by simply having it around like some other glitches as prizes here and there cool! Used nicely, it could be some really great scenery bits. For example stars in the distance.. A comet or so.. background rain. Maybe some extra depth to waterfalls, hallways.. a nifty movie theater or drive in with the screen in the background a bit. I may have to play around just for fun!

2009-07-30 16:39:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383

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This sounds like a really cool glitch but I'm on vacation right now! Could someone post a video or pic? PLEASE!!!!

2009-07-30 16:52:00 Author: Sunrise_Moon Posts: 469

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I published a version of my 'Mars' level on the beta server, if any of you testers wanted to see some good use for this stuff.

2009-07-30 17:38:00 Author: Jaeyden Posts: 564

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So did we find a way to put something behind the regular third thin layer? .

2009-07-30 17:42:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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So did we find a way to put something behind the regular third thin layer? . Yup, Ninja has a thread posted in the tutorial's section: https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=t=14343 It's very tedious, and I probably won't bother with it. I still haven't reached Grantos's ability to work with the normal planes, so I don't intend to make it harder for myself.

2009-07-30 17:50:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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Yup, Ninja has a thread posted in the tutorial's section: https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=t=14343 It's very tedious, and I probably won't bother with it. I still haven't reached Grantos's ability to work with the normal planes, so I don't intend to make it harder for myself. Yeah it's pretty tedious indeed. But If I work my background in the sky and the level more to the bottom of the creation space, it should be easy to just put the level back in line with the glitched background at the end. I'm gonna mess around with that. .

2009-07-30 17:56:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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8 seconds of gameplay Sounds like a new russellsmuscles level.

2009-07-30 21:40:00 Author: Unknown User

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This is what I've come up with so far... http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=574&pictureid=5202 http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=574&pictureid=5201 http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=574&pictureid=5200 I've used the glitch several more times but I CBA when it came down to taking more pics, so I'll just slap these ones I took earlier instead. I hope it stays, and I do hope that a theme editor replaces it if patched.

2009-07-30 21:50:00 Author: KoRnDawwg Posts: 1424

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This is what I've come up with so far... http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=574&pictureid=5202 http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=574&pictureid=5201 http://www.lbpcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=574&pictureid=5200 I've used the glitch several more times but I CBA when it came down to taking more pics, so I'll just slap these ones I took earlier instead. I hope it stays, and I do hope that a theme editor replaces it if patched. Wow, those look fantastic. Shall we expect to see extra layers in your Perpetual Distance series? The name would fit well with extra layers, lol. (Ha ha at the picture of sack leaning on the wall)

2009-07-30 21:54:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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Wow, those look fantastic. Shall we expect to see extra layers in your Perpetual Distance series? The name would fit well with extra layers, lol. (Ha ha at the picture of sack leaning on the wall) LOL That is the Perpetual Distance! Thanks though, I can't wait to publish it. Then again, I'm veering off-topic here

2009-07-30 22:01:00 Author: KoRnDawwg Posts: 1424

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Back on topic, I love the way the bushes from the MM background fit into the level by overlapping the extra layers - it looks very overgrown! I'm interested to see how else the backgrounds can be combined.

2009-07-31 00:34:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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You should try the Weddings theme, the angel statue looks fantastic when it overlaps the background layers! Like an eerie cathedral.

2009-07-31 10:15:00 Author: KoRnDawwg Posts: 1424

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A lot excellent points made in this thread, particularly from Ninja, Cubbage, rtm and Ranger. Many times I have been creating and wishing for just one more thin layer to round off some scenery or to make the mechanics of the level run smoothly. It has a lot of advantages and I'm very interested to see what the community will have done with it in a couple of weeks time. It also has a lot of disadvantages. The most obvious is the strain on the thermometer. Another is that people will now begin creating levels with the sole intention of using the glitch as they know it will land them on the front pages, similar to the small checkpoint glitch, glass sponge glitch etc. When Mm officially release a similar feature, there will be an expectation from the community for every new level to make use of it which puts a bit of pressure on creators. After a bit of experimentation, I've decided to leave it alone unless an idea pops into my head which allows me to use it effectively rather than force myself to slap it in there just for the sake of it which many will be doing. I would love to see a level which makes great use of it without confusing the player as to which layers they can stand on and I hope Mm releases it officially soon so we don't have to deal with those clunky emitters.

2009-07-31 17:13:00 Author: Killian Posts: 2575

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In my opinion those extra layers aren't necessary and i won't shed a tear when they are gone again, but what I do would like to see are fully supported checkpoint thick layers. Those are really useful for decoration and gameplay. Besides it just looks nicer if the cable/liana are not ultra thin or unrealistically wide but somewhere in the middle of both extremes. That they are grabable is also a huge benefit in my opinion. I don't use them currently because I try to keep my levels glitch free and it's too much of a hassle to reshape them, but if they were a normal part of LBP I would certainly use them.

2009-07-31 17:28:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193

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