Archive: 23 posts

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Does anyone think that some patch or DLC will ever decrease the overheating rate and will let us have more stuff in our levels? I HOPE THAT SOME DAY MEDIA MOLECULE WILL OVERTHROW THE THERMOMETER!

2009-07-21 22:16:00 Author: chezhead Posts: 1063

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It's entirely a matter of optimizing code and squeezing every last drop of processing power out of the Playstation 3. So yes, we may see a more generous thermometer in the future, it is possible.

2009-07-21 22:33:00 Author: BSprague Posts: 2325

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there mite be something to do just that in the future, i don't know, however if u play levels that are almost overheating on multiplayer it lags like crazy, could u imagine if the thermo was bigger? epic fail

2009-07-21 23:18:00 Author: springs86 Posts: 785

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there mite be something to do just that in the future, i don't know, however if u play levels that are almost overheating on multiplayer it lags like crazy, could u imagine if the thermo was bigger? epic fail Lag due to server issues and lag due to overworking the Playstation 3's ability to calculate and render everything are two totally different things.

2009-07-21 23:25:00 Author: BSprague Posts: 2325

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Lag due to server issues and lag due to overworking the Playstation 3's ability to calculate and render everything are two totally different things. i meant render everything, not server issues, nvm

2009-07-21 23:37:00 Author: springs86 Posts: 785

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If there's something we'll probably never see it's exactly. This type of code optimisation surely isn't something you do after release.. . .

2009-07-22 00:12:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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This type of code optimisation surely isn't something you do after release.. . Actually, it's exactly what developers do after release. Time constraints may have made it so they didn't have time to implement a new way, or another developer may have come out with a new technology that looks at coding in a different way. If you've ever looked at a list of updates in a patch for any game, a lot of the updates are usually sped up this, or optimized that. Developers are constantly looking to improve the horsepower of their software.

2009-07-22 00:31:00 Author: BSprague Posts: 2325

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Well, they HAVE done quite a bit since release. The material edge thermo is MUCH bigger than it used to be.... the thermo on Splat Invaders II dropped by close to 20% after installing Yarg. One of the biggest things you can do now is learn as much about the thermo as possible and use your knowledge to build bigger levels. I've seen some people build somewhat small levels and say they ran out of thermo, whereas people like Jaeyden, NinjaMicWZ, GruntosUK, and MrSuperComputer use it effectively and build fairly large levels. One of the biggest things I preach is learning to control the separate thermos - there isn't just ONE thermo - the one that is most filled is the one that is displayed. So, in other words, just because you use a ton of different materials and fill up the material thermo doesn't mean you've even TOUCHED the complex shape thermo or the decorations thermo. So, proper planning and managing these thermos can help build fairly large levels - take a look at JonMartin's latest in the LittleBig Apocalypse series (level 20) - It's HUGE.

2009-07-22 02:38:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Actually, it's exactly what developers do after release. Time constraints may have made it so they didn't have time to implement a new way, or another developer may have come out with a new technology that looks at coding in a different way. If you've ever looked at a list of updates in a patch for any game, a lot of the updates are usually sped up this, or optimized that. Developers are constantly looking to improve the horsepower of their software. I know. It's because with the thermometer there's a catch. It's not just those optimisation that are made through patches. Here we are talking about freeing ram memory. This is way more touchy that optimising your executable to it's faster or correct some code that will give you better threading, better net transfert or better compression for your profile info. For freeing thermo you need to retouch EVERYTHING. You need to lower the space tools, materials, stickers and deco are taking. It's extremely risky to break havoc. When you have a solid built, when your game is ready, approved and sent to manifacture, you're not doing changes that are too risky. The only risky addition Media Molecule made was the Paintinator. All the rest is your usual improvements you see in most games, primarily increasing code efficiency and not changing it. In my humble 5 years of experience in software QA and devellopement, I think it would be very risky to mess with memory at this point, not counting that it would also be an extensive job. Certainly doable but very very low chance we will ever see that. .

2009-07-22 03:22:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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If they make the user's level downloadable there would be surely less problem. Less lag I'm sure.

2009-07-22 07:54:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112

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Ranger, I agree that an overhaul of memory management would become a complete nightmare, but I'm not convinced the thermo issue is largely tied to RAM. I mean, what exactly does it need to hold in memory for a level? A few linked lists of objects with physical properties, linked lists of verteces etc. Obviously there is more, but I'm sure the main thing holding back the physics engine is not the memory, but the ability to process such a high number of physical interactions in real time. Code optimisation could do this and as Ccubbage says, there is very strong evidence that they already have. I'm also not sure if LBP uses up all of the CPU cores in the PS3 either, I have a feeling it doesn't but I don't know where I heard that and can't find info to confirm or deny it. In honesty though, most people just don't understand the thermo well enough, it's not anywhere as limiting as people think. Anyone having problems with thermo, I have 2 tips for you. #1: Consider any info you hear about the thermo suspect, a lot of what I see posted about the thermo is inaccurate at best and some is just downright wrong. #2: ignore rule 1, if it's CCubbage talking Seriously, he really knows what he is talking about. I've been gleaning every bit of knowledge I can from him since I've been on this site and then using that as a basis to do some testing of my own and get a good feel for the thermo. The result: Burnvictim just asked me if there was going to be much more to my level he played, because there is a lot already there. He has played about 50% of a thermo (the rest was separated off to the side and not available to play at the time). I struggle to fill my thermo now, and it's certainly not for a lack of scale or detail in the level.

2009-07-22 10:01:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Some advices Create small replicated chunks of materials. (Don't do a great wall, but use various replicated pieces. You can always deceive copies with stickers. Try to avoid great circles. I manage to save 25% of thermo in my level with this trick after a rebuilt passing from 70% to 45% (but I added a lot more stuff).

2009-07-22 11:38:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112

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I think they might make the therometer more "generous" in the future, but I don't think we'll see an update like that anytime soon. It probably takes them months and months to male the therometer bigger without messing up the PS3.

2009-07-22 11:44:00 Author: lk9988 Posts: 1077

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Ranger, I agree that an overhaul of memory management would become a complete nightmare, but I'm not convinced the thermo issue is largely tied to RAM. I mean, what exactly does it need to hold in memory for a level? The properties of everything in the level. At first it doesn't seem like a lot, but when you realize it has to keep track of every object's: Size Shape Edges Deformations (From Bombs) Sticker Placement Decoration Placement Position Texture Etc... I can imagine that at least one of the thermometers prevent RAM overload. On top of that, everything going on in a level is calculated, including physics and collision detection. It only renders what is going on on-screen, but it is doing the math for every other little thing you have going on in your level at that time. It also has to hold all of the textures for all of the materials that are in the level in the RAM at the same time, which is why the thermometer goes up so much when you add a new material. This is all just speculation as to how it is coded, but it can all be backed up by what actually happens in LittleBigPlanet.

2009-07-22 12:32:00 Author: BSprague Posts: 2325

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Just a note people, the levels ARE downloaded but into memory. The totality of your level is downloaded. If levels in game were "generated on the fly" it would take ALOT less loading but this isn't working for LBP design and genre. So yeah, a whole level must fit into memory. That's the limit we hit. It's true that what's not on-screen isn't rendered visible but this technique generally saves speed, not memory. Also saving frame buffer. As RTM pointed out, it's possible to see some improvements because of code efficiency but those will be minor. To see real improvements they would need to change/improve their compression code and redo their memory management. Those 2 things are extremely risky and Media Molecule probably will never touch that with a ten foot pole. .

2009-07-22 12:49:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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Size Shape Edges Deformations (From Bombs) Sticker Placement Decoration Placement Position Texture Etc... Yeah, I was thinking of all those actually, and I really don't see it as that much data. However, I've never looked that closely at the specs for the PS3 and didn't realise quite how small the RAM is - I just kinda assumed it would be a gig or two at least. And you know what they say about assumptions

2009-07-22 13:06:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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You know what... early on in creating, thermometer space used to be a big issue. It's a breeze to keep it in line now, honestly - the only thing is, having too many ideas for one level and being willing to continue it in an immediate sequel. I don't think I even need or want an increase, but what I would like is more publishing space on a single PSN - as an alternative to single level limitations, I would like to have a carefree attitude about continuing any level I make as a series... if I want False Idols 4 to be a 3 part episode, and then have 6 more installments after that, and also continue something like Free At Last as a series at the same time - I don't want to have to transfer things to another PSN (especially with this key-bug so many of us have been experiencing lately), or sit there scratching my head about which one-shot level's got to get the axe. I'd probably have alot less reservations about going full steam on something, and incubating it to it's full potential. For me, limitations on object complexity, and frame rate issues are really more troublesome than the thermometer limitations. Even those have workarounds, and are entirely understandable, but I still have a hard time compromising with it...

2009-07-22 13:10:00 Author: Unknown User

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I have to agree with NinjaMicWZ, I'm not sure increasing the thermo would be such a great idea...people would then just get sloppy. That said is there a thread providing more details about exactly is suspected to fill the thermo (did a search but thermo is mentioned way too often)? I have a pretty good handle on this from personal experience but I'd still like to squeeze more space out of my current level. In particular I'm curious about the first 3 items that were listed. 1. Size <- Better to have multiple small shapes or 1 large shape? 2. Shape 3. Edges <- How is Edges different from Shape? Also, I always keep my levels under the point where it whines that the level is starting to overheat just because the message popping up is soooo annoying. There's still a couple bars left in the thermo at this point...do people keep making stuff after this? What happens, does it eventually stop you from adding items...or does stuff just start to dissappear?

2009-07-23 18:23:00 Author: fullofwin Posts: 1214

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I have to agree with NinjaMicWZ, I'm not sure increasing the thermo would be such a great idea...people would then just get sloppy. That said is there a thread providing more details about exactly is suspected to fill the thermo (did a search but thermo is mentioned way too often)? I have a pretty good handle on this from personal experience but I'd still like to squeeze more space out of my current level. In particular I'm curious about the first 3 items that were listed. 1. Size <- Better to have multiple small shapes or 1 large shape? 2. Shape 3. Edges <- How is Edges different from Shape? Also, I always keep my levels under the point where it whines that the level is starting to overheat just because the message popping up is soooo annoying. There's still a couple bars left in the thermo at this point...do people keep making stuff after this? What happens, does it eventually stop you from adding items...or does stuff just start to dissappear? At the point i actually displays the message "Your level has overheated" you can't do anything else. Up to that point, it will say "Your level is starting to overheat" - but it's still dangerous to go up too high or flaky things start to happen. For instance, things will refuse to emit if the software thinks it will cause the level to overheat. 1. Size <- Better to have multiple small shapes or 1 large shape? This depends on which thermo you're trying to control, and there is no EXACT answer. For instance, if you are fighting the "edge" thermo because the nature of your level requires a lot of vertices (such as a lot of caverns versus square shapes) than it is better to do bigger shapes because many smaller shapes will require more edges. 2. Shape 3. Edges <- How is Edges different from Shape? There is a difference between the "number of shapes" (or separate objects) and the edges of shapes. The separate objects thermo can be generally controlled by "gluing" things to either dark matter or the base of the level - at that point the physics engine treats it totally different - it handles shapes it knows CAN'T move more simply than shapes that physically are affected by things around them. However, the "edge" thermo can be controlled by simplifying the complexity of the edges of the material (for instance, a square takes less than a star shape). You will notice LARGE levels generally have virtually everything glued down and use simple shapes for something like trees. Check out MrSuperComputers Basalisk bog or JulesyJules Degobah levels - these are examples of incredibly efficient creators who use simple shapes in a way that LOOKS more complex, such as trees that the edges curve just enough to make them look good, however if you look closely you'll see they used minimal edges. If you design a level which, even though efficient in shapes, requires a lot of unglued material the thermo will go up quickly. Unfortunately there is a lot to this - best thing to do is play around with scenarios and see how it works for you. I've found that if I get a specific thermo message I've been able to go through and redesign the parts of the level that were heavy for that particular thermo in order to stretch it a bit.

2009-07-23 18:43:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Thanks, that was quite helpful! I've found that if I get a specific thermo message I've been able to go through and redesign the parts of the level that were heavy for that particular thermo in order to stretch it a bit. Oooh, there are different thermo messages?!? I didn't know that, I've always gotten the one suggesting that my shapes are too complex. Most shapes in my current level were made using the corner editor so the vertex count is pretty minimal, but there are definitely places I can simplify more now that I know the messages are different/relevant! What are some of the other specific thermo messages?

2009-07-23 19:24:00 Author: fullofwin Posts: 1214

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Having more thermo space will be useful. I dunno, I kinda also like the pressure of having to complete a level whilst the "Your level is about to overheat!" message hitting me every minute. That's just me, don't ask...

2009-07-23 19:36:00 Author: KoRnDawwg Posts: 1424

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What are some of the other specific thermo messages? There are a LOT of them, and each one applies to a different thermo. The thermo displayed at the left side of your screen always displays the thermo that is most full. So: "Try using less complex shapes" "Try using less materials" "Your level contains too many objects - try gluing them to the base of your level or dark matter" "Try using less collected objects" "Try using less brains in your level" Plus a bunch more that I can't remember off the top of my head. But anytime your thermo is overheating there is a specific message.... pay attention to it, it can help you correct the problem and build bigger levels. One example would be "Crazy Train" from RangerZero - he kept having an overheating problem but didn't realize at that time the messages mattered. The message was "use less collected objects".. and one of the objects being emitted over and over in his background was the 3D MM tree object. Replacing it with a shape-drawn tree solved the whole issue. Thermo dropped quite a bit. Having more thermo space will be useful. I dunno, I kinda also like the pressure of having to complete a level whilst the "Your level is about to overheat!" message hitting me every minute. That's just me, don't ask... Yeah, we could all use more thermo under different circumstances, and in some cases MM may do something about it (for instance, Yarge changed the thermo rules for material edges), but many of them are not going to go away because they are from limitations MM may not have any control over.

2009-07-23 19:41:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Also, the overheating messages are combining with each other if you have multiple multiple thermo that are rushing. On my level "Sack's In The City" I have 4 or 5 thermo full. LOL .

2009-07-23 21:23:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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