Archive: 27 posts

---

*As a creator* what's your opinion about hiding/not hiding switches, pistons and so on? Is there an aesthetic concept behind it or you do what's better for the theme or the level? *Edited part*

2009-07-15 08:44:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112

---

I think it totally depends on the level. For example, one of mrsupercomputer's levels, which has incredible graphics and is very heavy on awesome atomospheric stuff, would look off with switches and such showing. However, Keldur's level - in my opinion at least - is a good example of where showing the switches and stuff works well. So yeah, I'd say it depends on what kind of a level you're trying to create.

2009-07-15 08:55:00 Author: hilightnotes Posts: 1230

---

And what about you, as a creator, Hilight, what do you prefer to do? Personally I'm favourable in showing gears and pistons (unless I don't want to give a sense of a "magic" effect) but I don't like showing triggers, ecception done for the grab switch. So my vote went for answer n?3.

2009-07-15 09:03:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112

---

Well... I haven't created that much yet, as I can't stop playing all the awesome levels out there for long enough to really spend some time with the create! But I tend to go for the more cinematic, story-oriented, immersive levels when I do try to create, so I go for switches hidden.

2009-07-15 09:08:00 Author: hilightnotes Posts: 1230

---

For me... it just depends on the level. It's cool to see how things are done, and they sometimes add to the visual punch and mechanical vibe of a level. If they are showing, then it's nice to see it being a means to show off the awesomeness of the mechanics and, like any other part of the visuals, should be done in a way that's pleasing to the eye. Keldur's new level is a great example of this, as was already stated. One off switches/emitters that people merely forgot to hide are no big deal, but can be an eyesore. I'll point them out to the person in a PM if I know them, but I'm not going to give them a low rating because they forgot to make something invisible. In my own stuff, I'd love to show switches more, but I rarely can have them placed in any tastefully, symmetrical, or visually pleasing way - especially since we can angle their radius' now, and oftentimes they have to be color coded in a way that would not be complimentary to the pallet of the level itself. If I can't show them all, why show any of them? Then I sometimes start thinking "should I show sounds too?"... I rely so much on escapism and immersion in some of my stuff, that showing the guts of a level would just take away from the experience, or needlessly complicate things for me in the design. Like I've said before... it's really nearly impossible to move completely away from an LBP level always requiring the player to suspend their disbelief - and when I see glorious, fantasy settings with a big yellow 2 way switch in them, I can't help but just go along with it and not think about it. Otherwise, something like a big red button in Lost Temple of Anubis would be a deal breaking eyesore... but it's not, and shouldn't be. I mean, seriously, the amazing vehicles always have a sponge grab, or a "lever" to drive and all the "acceptable" levers, buttons, and switches are no less obtrusive and ridiculous looking than visible mag switches or keys... basically, I don't think it's an issue, but good is good and bad is bad when it comes to visuals. I am a big fan of levels that can seamlessly incorporate player interaction, in an aesthetically sensible way though... ie: grabbing some flowers, or pushing some statues into the proper alignment without a lever. Anything that's in context with the theme at hand. It's subtle and tasteful... I always call it "organic" and it shows a great deal of forethought and vision that even some of the best levels lack. On the same note, I also respect when levels like Sci-Fi World or sackboy's inferno episode 3 have their own custom switches, levers, and buttons.

2009-07-15 09:27:00 Author: Unknown User

---

Well... I haven't created that much yet, as I can't stop playing all the awesome levels out there for long enough to really spend some time with the create! I understand you, since I had quite finished my level, but I began playing other's creators levels and I didn't even entered mine from nearly a week.

2009-07-15 09:28:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112

---

Levels with visibility on, like Keldur's level (if you haven't played it check it out ) and pull it off beautifully instantly get 5 stars from me, atmospheric and immersive levels usually remove it, of course, to make the player immerse into the experience. However, my tip is, if it looks good with it on, keep it on.

2009-07-15 09:47:00 Author: AwesomePossum Posts: 446

---

I don't ever hide pistons/winches because then it just looks like it's floating by magic. Unless of course I ever need that effect. As for bolts, sometimes I leave regular bolts visible, but always make Motor and Wobble bolts invisible. Mostly because I think they are hideous looking.

2009-07-15 10:31:00 Author: TripleTremelo Posts: 490

---

^I sometimes just use regular bolts that aren't attaching anything just for decoration... good for industrial stuff. Seen plenty of people do that too.

2009-07-15 10:32:00 Author: Unknown User

---

Whoa, thanks for using my level as an example! I'm completely flattered! But, I did also vote for option 3. Unless what everybody thinks, in my level most of the switches aren't visible at all, or are out of the screen. I don't think that showing all of them it's a good idea, because it feels like if you're oversaturating the player with that much information (well, only if you have complex logic/mechanics, wich I happened to, so I did hide most of them). Only in MM levels they manage to show them all without oversaturating too much the levels, but in some cases (the jiraffes in savannah) they just don't look good :/ Anyways, this is just a personal opinion, I'm sure that someone did like that showing. However, I fail to understand the PANIC that sometimes people has to show them. IMHO, I think that they easily make the playing experience richer, by showing AND TEACHING the player how everything was made, or, at least, most of it. I mean, hey, aren't we all a little curious about mechanics/logic, sometimes? But my main point here, is what NinjaMicWZ so cleverly has already said: One off switches/emitters that people merely forgot to hide are no big deal, but can be an eyesore. I'll point them out to the person in a PM if I know them, but I'm not going to give them a low rating because they forgot to make something invisible. It SHOULD be this way. I mean, switches don't affect gameplay at all, and not THAT much aesthetics, so, why should someone rate a level low for showing them? The important things on levels are many factors, but surely if a person decides/forgets to hide switches or not, it shouldn't be taken into account when you rate the level. And thanks again for the free publcity of my level, haha!

2009-07-15 11:03:00 Author: Keldur Posts: 628

---

Makeing winch's visible is a must for me, making pistons invisible idk sometimes and sometimes not.

2009-07-15 11:14:00 Author: Adam9001 Posts: 744

---

I use invisible winches. I can think of 4 occasions in my WIP where it has made complete sense to and can think of several community levels where it is used to good effect. You just need to think beyond the basic applications of the components. I've also added connectors that do nothing, whilst the working parts are hidden, simply for visual effect. If you are planning on making things invisible for the sake of aesthetics, make sure that there is some visual indication of what's going on if the player has to interact with it. If the player doesn't need to interact with it then it's not such a big deal and by all means show them if it suits your visual style - too many people hide them "just because they can" I think. Oh and slightly off topic, but relevant: Invisible walls - this, to me, is just plain lazy, and it breaks the visual cues rule. IMO, if I'm in a level with engaging, immersive aesthetics and there's a frikkin' random forcefield, completely out of character with the theme of the level, the immersion is broken.

2009-07-15 11:36:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

---

I couldn't agree more eith the forcefield thing. I mean, c'mon, it's actually fun designing things to block the sackboy!

2009-07-15 12:43:00 Author: Keldur Posts: 628

---

Yes, if you want a forcefield you can make a glass with electric glass into it. Anyway, I don't want to question other creator's methods, I'm just curious and I think that this is a good argument to congront ideas. Actually I kinda like Ninja and rtm ideas of inserting bolts and such just to decorate levels, since I'm actually struggling to make my level more lively and believable. In my level I was quite pi**ed because I had to make a grappable switch for a lift visible since I couldn't use another kind of switches, and I think that it's quite an eyesore.

2009-07-15 13:04:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112

---

I'm probably going to be saying the same thing as everyone else in this thread, considering the poll results. It truly does depend on what you are trying to achieve. I saw someone make a steampunk flying ship (VVaIdo) and they used the pistons as part of the machinery. They had no true purpose, but they looked great on the ship. Another example of connectors used for aesthetics is in mrsupercomputer's "Manufactured Madness" level, where an elevator door is locked with winches, resembling chains. For most average level use, it just looks cleaner without them there, and it also removes the sound of them, so music levels benefit from having invisible motor bolts on the tires of the cars that allow the music to play. For my level LittleBigMemory, I've opted to leave all of the contraptions intricate bits and bobs visible, so that if I ever want to show someone what goes on in the game, I can do so relatively easily. I also have a tour level to showcase how it works, but that's a different story. If your level is a giant mechanical monster, you may want to leave the pistons and everything else visible, not only for dramatic effect and to show off the work that went into it, but also because of the sounds the tools make as they work, it might blend in well with what you are trying to achieve.

2009-07-15 13:54:00 Author: BSprague Posts: 2325

---

Actually, sometimes pistons, strings, chains.... look good JUST for aesthetics. Check out the boss in mrsupercomputer's Zephyr valley. A piston that doesn't actually do anything spinning around for looks only. Great concept. I added strings to my bugs in Starship Troopers so it looks like they are swinging on a web, when in reality the strings are doing nothing. And Ninjamicwz sticking bolts on things that are doing nothing.

2009-07-15 14:21:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

---

Good point about the sound BSprague, and again you can add components simply for the sound they make to enhance the level.

2009-07-15 14:30:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

---

*smacks hammer onto desk* Majority rules; the public only makes pistons, strings, and bolts visible when necessary. That is all. (All rise!)

2009-07-15 19:08:00 Author: Outlaw-Jack Posts: 5757

---

I prefer to hide everything, unless they somehow add to the environment or objects around the player... pistons, chains, motor bolts.

2009-07-16 06:48:00 Author: Rustbukkit Posts: 1737

---

Oh and slightly off topic, but relevant: Invisible walls - this, to me, is just plain lazy, and it breaks the visual cues rule. IMO, if I'm in a level with engaging, immersive aesthetics and there's a frikkin' random forcefield, completely out of character with the theme of the level, the immersion is broken. I disagree, unless you mean some other way. I use them a few times in my MGS level (by emitting), just to prevent backtracking that would force you to suicide/respawn.

2009-07-16 07:57:00 Author: TripleTremelo Posts: 490

---

And there was no logical way you could have designed your level in such a way that backtracking was realistically prevented in a convincing and sensible way? Honestly, you couldn't think of anything? MSG level, so maybe a thin beam of light and make it a visible forcefield, that activates for some logical reason? Even a door closing would be better! I won't judge too harshly having not played the level in question, but on the surface of what you have described, this sounds even worse as you've thrown down an invisible wall were previously someone could walk... that's breaking immersion and it's inconsistant. My view: preventing backtracking and controlling the playable area is a part of designing your level. There are hundreds of ways of achieving this and I have NEVER seen a level with invisible walls where I thought that it was suitable and I could always think of an alternative. The only reason I can see for doing it is that it's easier than coming up with some creative gameplay device to solve the problem...

2009-07-16 09:44:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

---

I also think this depends on the premise of the Level. For my Sci-Fi series Takken, of which only Level 1 has been published, I hid all the pistons and mechanical stuff, to give the illusion of suspended lifts and moving walls in a futuristic setting. I did, however, leave a Mag Key and Switch visible, as an indicator to the player that a key needed to be moved to the switch to get to some score bubbles in a container...so, I think leaving some things visible as hints in a Level works well. A Level Lady_Luck__777 and I are working on now, for LBPC The Game, is done in a different manner, to support the feel of the Level. We have some of the logic showing in the beginning section of the Level, to peak the interest of would be creators and some players, so they can see the behind the scenes mechanics and logic involved in doing certain things. Rick

2009-07-17 16:52:00 Author: RickRock_777 Posts: 1567

---

I only make things visible when they need to be. I just think it looks way better when those things are invisible (except of course in the case of the Mm-style levels, like Lafarge's Request by Keldur, it looks better with them visible.)

2009-07-17 16:58:00 Author: brnxblze Posts: 1318

---

And there was no logical way you could have designed your level in such a way that backtracking was realistically prevented in a convincing and sensible way? Honestly, you couldn't think of anything? I had this in my valentines day level, and I used red/green stoplights in conjunction with the "invisible walls" - no box of chocolates in hand, no progress. A nice complex door mechanism would have been cool at each one, but the therm only allowed me so much, and what was there was devoted to other things. I didn't even need the walls there, but I knew most players would glaze over the dialogue and run halfway through the level without bringing the chocolates if I didn't force them to think twice. I even joked at the end of the level - "Dear John. I had hoped we would always be together, but alas, the thermometer is full..." Then again, that level was made in a day on a last minute crunch to meet a contest deadline, and there are things I would do differently. Other than that, I used it in False Idols 3 to prevent players from jumping off the invisible elevator while being exalted into the sky. I don't think that visible walls reaching to the sun would have been in accord with the theme... it's a deity-like entity, and being able to freely jump out of it's summoning would have made it seem not-so omnipotent to me.

2009-07-18 00:45:00 Author: Unknown User

---

And there was no logical way you could have designed your level in such a way that backtracking was realistically prevented in a convincing and sensible way? Honestly, you couldn't think of anything? MSG level, so maybe a thin beam of light and make it a visible forcefield, that activates for some logical reason? Even a door closing would be better! I won't judge too harshly having not played the level in question, but on the surface of what you have described, this sounds even worse as you've thrown down an invisible wall were previously someone could walk... that's breaking immersion and it's inconsistant. My view: preventing backtracking and controlling the playable area is a part of designing your level. There are hundreds of ways of achieving this and I have NEVER seen a level with invisible walls where I thought that it was suitable and I could always think of an alternative. The only reason I can see for doing it is that it's easier than coming up with some creative gameplay device to solve the problem... I just don't think it's that big of a deal... at all. Most of the players won't even come across the invisible walls, if you just walk away in the middle of a boss fight for no reason, then yeah, you'll run into one. It just prevents that 1/1000 person from commenting "I did this, had to restart, blah blah etc" I am extremely picky when it comes to details and immersion, and invisible walls don't bother me (not how I used them) They use invisible barriers in real videogames, there isn't ALWAYS a solution. I didn't even try to think of one though, but if I tried I'm sure I could. I just don't see the point.

2009-07-19 08:36:00 Author: TripleTremelo Posts: 490

---

I usually keep stuff like sensor switches, grab switches, motor bolts and wobble bolts invisible unless they really would make the level look better. Other then that, it depends if they fit in the theme of the level or not. Like a mechanical or industrial level would look nice with stuff like magnet keys, and I think abstract, garden or cartoony themed levels look nice with stuff like normal bolts visible.

2009-07-19 11:23:00 Author: lk9988 Posts: 1077

---

It really depends for me, and sometimes what I do changes between parts of a level. For instance, in the level I'm working on, there's a bit with a lift that breaks after a certain point and falls. I'm doing this with a magnetic key switch and dissolve, and if you could see the key and switch, it just wouldn't work as well. At the same time, I left the piston working the lift visible and stuff like that, because it would be weird if the lift just started floating all by itself.

2009-07-19 20:01:00 Author: dandygandy2704 Posts: 1002

Posts: 1077139    Threads: 69970    Members: 9661    Archive-Date: 2019-01-19

Aus dem Archiv wurden alle persönlichen Daten wie Name, Anschrift, Email etc. - aber auch sämtliche Inhalte wie z.B. persönliche Nachrichten - entfernt.
Die Nutzung dieser Webseite erfolgt ohne Speicherung personenbezogener Daten. Es werden keinerlei Cookies, Logs, 3rd-Party-Plugins etc. verwendet.