Archive: 28 posts

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Today, I did replay the collector's lair, getting a new material wich that had me wondering about something the whole day. That material goes into the cardboard section, and it's called "Papel de plata" (I've got the spanish LBP version) and it's literal traduction would be "Silver paper". What I found curious about this particular material, it's the fact that it weights way more than any other material in the cardboard section. Many parts of my incoming level (Lafarge's request! Play it when it's out, wich will be soon! God, I love self advertisement) have been redesigned keeping in mind, that, for example, all kinds of stone weigh and resist the same. But now, I find this exception in the cardboard section, wich makes me wonder if there are differences between all the other materials inside the same "material section" (glass, wood, et?..). That could be the reason of many glitches that have been appearing in my level when I changed materials with the material change tool, so I'd love to know if someone has an answer to this. Thanks everybody in advance!

2009-07-07 03:09:00 Author: Keldur Posts: 628

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I'm guessing it's the aluminum foil material. It's like the stuff they put over cakes or leftovers in the fridge made of aluminum. Strength wise it's the same as cardboard but because it's aluminum I think they made it weigh more. That's purely my guess from messing around with it in game and I have no inside knowledge whether it's programmed to behave that way or not but it's the best theory I have as to why they put it in with the cardboard but it's heavier.

2009-07-07 04:59:00 Author: Morgana25 Posts: 5983

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Are you sure it weights more? I always thought that there were 3 kind of weights in LBP: light, medium and heavy.

2009-07-07 07:35:00 Author: OmegaSlayer Posts: 5112

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Not 100% but is seems like it does. Anyone of you testing types ever check how it behaves in terms of weight?

2009-07-07 08:11:00 Author: Morgana25 Posts: 5983

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Can't say I ever noticed if it's heavier or not but I guess the easiest way would be to put a block of material from the same category on a horizontal spring attached to dark matter in a blank level and see how far it bends if at all, then go into the tools menu and change the material to that 'tin foil' which is what it's called in English and see if there is any difference. If it is heavier and you want to use it but want it lighter just do what i do and take a photo of a large piece of it and use it to sticker another lighter material. This goes for all your other materials too Keldur. If you're worried about discrepancies you could use the same material throughout the level and just apply stickers of all the other materials you want them to look like e.g. as candyk did in his level which I can't remember the name of ( spaceship something ? ) which he made almost entirely from dissolve and just applied different stickers.

2009-07-07 11:02:00 Author: mistervista Posts: 2210

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Yeah, it's heavier. Has the same properties as metal and stone. Even says it is a heavy material in the descriptions.

2009-07-07 11:11:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193

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I'm guessing it's the aluminum foil material. It's like the stuff they put over cakes or leftovers in the fridge made of aluminum. Strength wise it's the same as cardboard but because it's aluminum I think they made it weigh more. That's purely my guess from messing around with it in game and I have no inside knowledge whether it's programmed to behave that way or not but it's the best theory I have as to why they put it in with the cardboard but it's heavier. That's definetely the aterial I was thinking of. Thank you so much, sometimes it's hard to live with the spanish version of LBP T,T Are you sure it weights more? I always thought that there were 3 kind of weights in LBP: light, medium and heavy. There are at least 4, I'd say: Heavy, medium, light and very light (polysterene) Can't say I ever noticed if it's heavier or not but I guess the easiest way would be to put a block of material from the same category on a horizontal spring attached to dark matter in a blank level and see how far it bends if at all, then go into the tools menu and change the material to that 'tin foil' which is what it's called in English and see if there is any difference. Thanks for that suggestion; I already thought of something like that, but your idea it's more "clean". That definetely should do; whenever I'm concerned about if 2 types of stone weight the same or not, I'll try that out. Thanks everybody for the answers, altough as I said in the 1rst comment, I already know that that kind of cardboard is heavier, I just wanted to know if they were diferences of weigh inside other material's categories (like stone or glass) Eg; One kind of stone weights "2", and the other "2,25"

2009-07-07 11:20:00 Author: Keldur Posts: 628

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There are at least 4, I'd say: Heavy, medium, light and very light (polysterene) Dissolve doesn't fit that and neither does floaty. There are 7 at least. https://lbpcentral.lbp-hub.com/index.php?t=t=8914 As far as I'm aware, there aren't differences in the other categories, but then I wasn't aware of this difference. Seems pretty stupid. Only way is to set up some scales and test them all. Can't say that I really want to though Thanks for bringing this up though

2009-07-07 11:27:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Thank you for the information, and for that thread! It's a bit of nit-picking, but I can see some errors in that thread though. It say, for example, that wood is undestroyable, when I'm pretty sure it is; I've broken tons of those. Curious how yesterday I went trough the tutorials section and I failed to see that. Thanks again!

2009-07-07 13:27:00 Author: Keldur Posts: 628

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What I found was really strange about Tin Foil is that all of the other cardboards are partially destroyed by bombs and explosions, but Tin Foil simply isn't effected, like wood, stone, metal, etc.

2009-07-07 13:43:00 Author: BSprague Posts: 2325

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I know, I picked up on that before. Everything is destructable so I don't know what they are getting at with that. I'd also Ike to know how friction and resistance are measured as well, as there is no indication at all... It's not the best info ever, the table of object weights is quite good though. Also there is no value for LittleBigGravity, I calcualted it once but I don't know where I wrote it...

2009-07-07 13:43:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Why don't you guys create a balance and drop blocks on it? A long spring pad that is soft enough could bind and as it goes down, it lights up some leds. The lower it goes, to heavier is the object... .

2009-07-07 15:24:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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Why don't you guys create a balance and drop blocks on it? A long spring pad that is soft enough could bind and as it goes down, it lights up some leds. The lower it goes, to heavier is the object... . Yup, that's what mistervista suggested and what I'll do whenever I'm in doubt again. Even that, thanks for pointing out. But, you see, I think that there are more than... 70 materials? So my eyes may bleed when I try it. Not a problem, though; I'm already semi blind because of the effort of building my level, more harm won't bother me I know, I picked up on that before. Everything is destructable so I don't know what they are getting at with that. I'd also Ike to know how friction and resistance are measured as well, as there is no indication at all... It's not the best info ever, the table of object weights is quite good though. Also there is no value for LittleBigGravity, I calcualted it once but I don't know where I wrote it... Now that picked my attention; you did calculate the gravity in LBP? That's kinda stunning, you sure deserve my respect ?,? And about the friction avlues, I don't think I really believe that thread. I mean, stone's friction it's 3, and rubber it's 4. I do believe that rubber has a much higher value. But, then again, I don't get in wich scae those were measured... :S What I found was really strange about Tin Foil is that all of the other cardboards are partially destroyed by bombs and explosions, but Tin Foil simply isn't effected, like wood, stone, metal, etc. Exactly! It's so weird that a material like that it's on the cardboard section, just for the looks and properties I see it fitting in the metal materials. But taking in account Morgana's explanation about the uses of the material, I kinda see it fitting in the "cardboard" section just for the concept of it.

2009-07-07 15:42:00 Author: Keldur Posts: 628

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Oh crap, that's what destructable in that thread means. The destructable ones are affected by explosives. So now that makes sense. An easier way to measure them is to create old fashioned scales and use some reference material - I recomend polysyrene. Place in pause and just keep undoing and tweaking the other side. Assuming most of the materials fit into a weight category, it wouldn't take too long. Scales with a spring would need calibration, which requires knowing weight properties in advance. As for gravity, all you need to do is drop an object from a known height (using the grid) and time it. Can't remember what it worked out as but I do remember it indicated that sackboy was in the region of a foot tall (take gravity in lbpUnits/s/s and convert to m/s/s to give a conversion for lbpUnits to metres). I was bored.

2009-07-07 15:52:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Oh crap, that's what destructable in that thread means. The destructable ones are affected by explosives. So now that makes sense. An easier way to measure them is to create old fashioned scales and use some reference material - I recomend polysyrene. Place in pause and just keep undoing and tweaking the other side. Assuming most of the materials fit into a weight category, it wouldn't take too long. Scales with a spring would need calibration, which requires knowing weight properties in advance. As for gravity, all you need to do is drop an object from a known height (using the grid) and time it. Can't remember what it worked out as but I do remember it indicated that sackboy was in the region of a foot tall (take gravity in lbpUnits/s/s and convert to m/s/s to give a conversion for lbpUnits to metres). I was bored. I haven't tested it out, but does it equate to anywhere near 9.8 m/s^2 (or u/s^2, because it isn't measured in meters), or even some multiple of that number?

2009-07-07 15:57:00 Author: BSprague Posts: 2325

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Why do you through all the trouble, if you could just make it relative to say basic wood. It's not on earth so you don't need earth measurements. My guess is that all light materials will fall at the same speed and so will all others in the same categories.

2009-07-07 16:01:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193

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BSprague it came out at some horrible value. Although this could be attributed to my crude measuring techniques Syroc, I suggested polystyrene as your reference point as we believe it is the lightest material (that way it can be 1 and everything else can be larger than 1). As for your comment on different materials falling at different speeds never occured to me. It's a proposterous notion, but now I think of it, quite likely within LBP. I may actually have to check this out tonight, it's going to really bug me if it's true. The reason conversions between units and metres interests me is for scaling. It does explain why all the levels where sackboy is really small don't feel right to me. Scaling sackboy down ingame scales down the force of gravity as well so everythig just feels wrong.

2009-07-07 16:25:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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That was actually a bit silly, but it works. They fall at different speeds. Dropped all basic materials from the same height (top of the level), all had the same size (4x4 small grid) and this is the order they arrived at the bottom. 1. Metal 1. Stone 2. Wood 2. Rubber 2. Glass 3. Sponge 4. Dissolve 5. Cardboard 5. Polystyrene

2009-07-07 16:53:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193

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Ugh, that's just horrible... I wonder if this is just silliness or an actual effect of air resistance. I'm gonna guess the former.

2009-07-07 17:05:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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That was actually a bit silly, but it works. They fall at different speeds. Dropped all basic materials from the same height (top of the level), all had the same size (4x4 small grid) and this is the order they arrived at the bottom. 1. Metal 1. Stone 2. Wood 2. Rubber 2. Glass 3. Sponge 4. Dissolve 5. Cardboard 5. Polystyrene What, they do fall at different speeds? So there's something like an "artifiicial air restitance" in LBP? If it is so, that would mean that metal has more mass than stone, two materials wich I thought that had exactly the same properties and weigh the same; besides, the thread that rtm223 linked said that they were weual in all the values, if I'm not mistaken.

2009-07-07 17:09:00 Author: Keldur Posts: 628

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Poor Galilei http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equations_for_a_falling_body Anyway, i'm going to experiment on this a lot

2009-07-07 17:15:00 Author: Shadowheaven Posts: 378

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Yep they arrive in the order I wrote above. Metal and stone arrive at the same time, though. You can order them like this: Very heavy: 1. Metal 1. Stone Heavy: 2. Wood 2. Rubber 2. Glass Medium: 3. Sponge Light: 4. Dissolve Very light: 5. Cardboard 5. Polystyrene All other materials act the same. Tinfoil is the odd one out, obviously. PS: Gallileo only had one planet to test his theory on. We have another little big planet. ^.^

2009-07-07 17:16:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193

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To test air resistance: 1. Pick a material (We will use stone in this example) 2. Turn on small grid 3. Make a 2x2 square of stone and directly next to it make a horizontal 1x4 rectangle of stone. 4. Let them fall, if they hit at the same time, there is no air resistance. I haven't tested this, but I am 99.9% sure there isn't air resistance. As for different materials falling at different speeds, remember that LittleBigPlanet isn't a real planet, and doesn't have to obey basic laws of gravity.

2009-07-07 17:24:00 Author: BSprague Posts: 2325

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Yeah, there is no air resistance. It just obeys a few basic man-made laws of gravity. Complete simulation of real world physics would be a bit too much for the PS3 to handle, I guess.

2009-07-07 17:31:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193

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Yeah, there is no air resistance. It just obeys a few basic man-made laws of gravity. Complete simulation of real world physics would be a bit too much for the PS3 to handle, I guess. Not at all, its just not fit for LittleBigPlanet.

2009-07-07 17:37:00 Author: BSprague Posts: 2325

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Not sure if there is anyone here who might now such things, but would even be possible to create a game like LBP that obeys all laws of physics? Just out of curiosity really, I have no clue about programming and such.

2009-07-07 17:42:00 Author: Syroc Posts: 3193

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Not sure if there is anyone here who might now such things, but would even be possible to create a game like LBP that obeys all laws of physics? Just out of curiosity really, I have no clue about programming and such. iF YOU INCLUDE [I]ALL[I] (woops caps my bad) of them, it'd challenge a supercomputer I should think. The ones that affect us in our everyday lives, however, eg. gravity, drag, friction etc...I'd guess it's plausible. Would probably require a stack of PS3s though.

2009-07-07 17:55:00 Author: dawesbr Posts: 3280

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Just to clarify, Laws of Gravity aren't really man-made and LBP is not following the basic simplified laws of gravity. But yeah, it's a oversimplification of various effects. Like a "rule of thumb" - lighter objects fall slower. To answer you question Syroc (in a really pedantic manner). In theory, it's just maths, so yes. In practice no. As an example, to correctly calculate friction, using all the laws of physics, you would be calculating the electromagnetic interaction between individual atoms. Ditto for tension in a rope. If we rephrase the question to "would it be possible to create a game that models real-world phsyics in such a way that it would feel real to the player" the answer is probably yes, the limitation would be how much you could do at once. So yeah, sort of what dawsbr said.

2009-07-07 18:05:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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