Archive: 18 posts

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so i know i've seen some awesome robotic and mecha bosses inmy time playing this(and made some) but i feel it's hard to make a creauture that looks like a living breathing creature, anyone got any tips on making a creature look more alive and less like a robot, and if u have any pics of one that you think looks real good post please, thanks

2009-06-20 04:36:00 Author: jjdragon Posts: 257

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Well, it all depends on what kind of creature you want to make, not all are gonna work the same, different creatures requre different tricks m8.

2009-06-20 05:28:00 Author: Silverleon Posts: 6707

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If you want to make it seem alive, it has to have features that would make it seem alive. For example, most things that we would consider living are composed of a ridiculous amount of parts, so the body would be in constant motion and be segmented, not just simply a head, body, arms, and legs, but have forearms and possibly moving fingers. Depending on the creature, you might want to simulate breathing by using pistons and switches to portray diaphragm movement. It needs to be intricate, static creatures do not look alive.

2009-06-20 05:34:00 Author: BSprague Posts: 2325

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I build in way too much detail... (thats bad) It's not really LBP's thing unless you like 2 minute levels... Silverleons got a good point... think about what you want to build... try to keep it as simple as possible... whatever you can achieve with stickers do so... then find tricks... you could always use cut scenes to 'trick-in' realisms that are not there... In other words say I want to build a dragon boss... well perhaps I'd make a cutscene of his wings opening and closing in silhouette in miniature... the true model the players fight would have no such movement though... But its implied, and then hopeful imagined by your players... harness their imagination, and you'll have them hooked. Hope it helps.

2009-06-20 08:01:00 Author: Gravel Posts: 1308

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... but have forearms and possibly moving fingers. Depending on the creature, you might want to simulate breathing by using pistons and switches to portray diaphragm movement. this is what i try to do. well, at least in the levels i create and dont publish : the level im working on now has a mini-boss thing (i made a topic asking for help about him) where i used this trick. not the fingers thing, but the "using pistons ... to portray diaphragm movement".

2009-06-20 21:24:00 Author: gofurr360z Posts: 886

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this is what i try to do. well, at least in the levels i create and dont publish : the level im working on now has a mini-boss thing (i made a topic asking for help about him) where i used this trick. not the fingers thing, but the "using pistons ... to portray diaphragm movement". That's good, doing things like that help to build up immersion and make the level more "realistic" and detailed. Some levels are enjoyable based solely on the level of detail and minor effects they employ.

2009-06-21 15:31:00 Author: BSprague Posts: 2325

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If what you're making is in profile you could have several different moving sections behind a thin bit of material. Remember that not only the diaphragm moves and that different creatures breathe in different ways; insects have layered lungs that move like an accordian in their abdomen. You could go to the zoo for a day or something lol.

2009-06-21 18:46:00 Author: Sackmundo Posts: 60

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Well I'm no expert on making characters or creatures, but whenever I have to make one, I use a spring bolt for the limbs and head to make it more realistic, you could also add wobble bolts on certain limbs if you need the character/creature to, point at something etc. When decorating the character I use gradient stickers a lot, because they add a nice touch, like in Mrsupercomputer's Zephyr Valley level, for the floating islands in it he uses a brown gradient sticker. They seem like they are not there, but once you use your popit to remove the gradient you can clearly see why the sticker was placed there. Another tip is, when you are coloring in the character/creature, if you need a certain color a good idea is to get a sticker with a color similar in it, then increase the size of the sticker so that the color needed is fully on the character/creature. (I didn't explain that to well did I :/ ) So to sum up, to make something more realistic, is to add more randomness to the object (spring bolts are a good example), and to always put a lot of time into decorating it, because even the slightest sticker can be a nice touch Phew, that's about it from me. Voltage Out

2009-06-23 21:48:00 Author: High Voltage Posts: 17

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Well, it all depends on what kind of creature you want to make, not all are gonna work the same, different creatures requre different tricks m8. True dat. For example I really don't agree with the following: the body would be in constant motion It needs to be intricate, static creatures do not look alive. Many real-world creatures remain static A LOT of the time. Many creatures also move with jerky movements with periods of stillness (birds' heads for e.g.), many stay still then move suddenly before stopping dead still again (a lot of reptiles do this). Realistically you need to get some David Attenborough on the go with your animal of choice and observe them. Also, bear in mind the purpose of the creature. I made an animal that chases you through some obstacles. It's back legs moved on a wobble bolt (to give the body motion of running), front legs were normally stationary, but used for jumping, head and tail were on sprung bolts. Simple construction but the motion actually looks pretty good (randomness on the head and tail helps as High Voltage suggests). Most importantly, the players' focus will be on the obstacles so there was no need for overly complex motion. A case where realism is aided by distraction if you like. In that example, the jumping was triggered by the player trying to jump over the creature - if you don't jump, neither does it. Either way it bites you and you die My point here is that a small effort in intelligent interaction can actually be waaay more immersive and convincing than complex piston and wobble bolt mechanics that ultimately lead to deterministic, mechanical movement. A creature that reacts is far more real to me, even if the motion isn't 100%. Even a bit of angular targetting on a head or an attack can work well to this end. Also remember this is LBP, most things just don't look "real", no matter how good the artistry of the creator. You can rely a lot on suspension of disbelief.

2009-06-23 22:11:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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Many real-world creatures remain static A LOT of the time. Many creatures also move with jerky movements with periods of stillness (birds' heads for e.g.), many stay still then move suddenly before stopping dead still again (a lot of reptiles do this). Realistically you need to get some David Attenborough on the go with your animal of choice and observe them. Also, bear in mind the purpose of the creature. I made an animal that chases you through some obstacles. It's back legs moved on a wobble bolt (to give the body motion of running), front legs were normally stationary, but used for jumping, head and tail were on sprung bolts. Simple construction but the motion actually looks pretty good (randomness on the head and tail helps as High Voltage suggests). Most importantly, the players' focus will be on the obstacles so there was no need for overly complex motion. A case where realism is aided by distraction if you like. In that example, the jumping was triggered by the player trying to jump over the creature - if you don't jump, neither does it. Either way it bites you and you die My point here is that a small effort in intelligent interaction can actually be waaay more immersive and convincing than complex piston and wobble bolt mechanics that ultimately lead to deterministic, mechanical movement. A creature that reacts is far more real to me, even if the motion isn't 100%. Even a bit of angular targetting on a head or an attack can work well to this end. Also remember this is LBP, most things just don't look "real", no matter how good the artistry of the creator. You can rely a lot on suspension of disbelief. I do agree with you here, but this depends wholly on the type of boss or creature being created. There is a middle-ground between interactivity with the player and realism, a good example of this would be the final boss dragon in OIL_'s Ancient Castle level, it's head flicks back when you grab it, and getting on it's tail makes it swing it up in the air. The arms and legs move, and there are several different body segments. It is, in my opinion, the LittleBigPlanet definition of a "realistic" boss. We also have to remember that we are working in several 2D planes, meaning that birds cannot have jerky heads like they do in real life without them looking like they flew straight out of The Exorcist. Reptiles can be simulated with the start-stop motion they exhibit in real life, but when they are moving, they do have limbs and a head and a body that all move fluidly. As I said, the style of movement and interaction for the creature really depends on what the creator is going for as far as gameplay and immersion are involved, as well as the actual physical characteristics of the creature itself.

2009-06-24 02:34:00 Author: BSprague Posts: 2325

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BSprague, I think you've done a better job of explaining some of my points here than I did In particular, the point at the end about things just won't look real in LBP. Trying to mimick them exactly will often fail due to the limitations of the medium. The bird head movement for example won't work in profile as you say, but possibly could work looking stright on. A certain level of abstraction to create a creature in LBP is always going to be needed and the players will accept it (buffalos with wheels for example). So I still think observing footage of the creatures you are targetting, but try to filter what is sensible for their movements in LBP. And of course your purpose for the creature will have a massive impact The reason I brought up interactivity is that I always see people focussing on complex mechanical construction of limbs etc, but it's actually quite rare to see in LBP a creature articulated in a responsive, intelligent, meaningful way, so IMO it stands out more when you do see this, even if the mechanical construction is slightly lacking. Also, don't get me started on OIL_'s boss... it's just too good. Again, the interactivity here is minimal - just a change of behaviour based on a grab switch, but just think how much more it adds. IMO that creature actually emotes distress when you grab it.

2009-06-24 11:07:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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You could go to the zoo for a day or something lol. This is actually a brilliant idea, even though it was said in jest. The zoo might load you with infinite inspiration for how your creatures could act and react, not to mention how they respond to disturbances and other creatures. Knowledge can't always take the place of good observation. Also maybe consider using softer (like spongey material) and more naturally toned materials for living creatures (of course depending on the creature), and a subtle use of stickers can do wonders too. Goodluck!

2009-06-24 12:20:00 Author: noddle111 Posts: 174

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Also, don't get me started on OIL_'s boss... it's just too good. Again, the interactivity here is minimal - just a change of behaviour based on a grab switch, but just think how much more it adds. IMO that creature actually emotes distress when you grab it. There is actually a fair bit more interactivity to the dragon I believe. Try jumping onto the tail, it will flail around outside of it's normal patterns, and I think that jumping on the head also invokes a response. But yes, OIL_ did an insanely good job on that, it doesn't have nearly as many plays as it deserves. And while the buffalo in the story mode levels do have wheels, I've seen a few levels with animals that can actually walk or run in a LBP-style "realistic" fashion. There was one level I played, I can't remember the name now but I'll see if I can find it later, it was a horse that functioned very similarly to the dragon, but it walked on four legs complete with "knees" and other important body segments.

2009-06-24 14:10:00 Author: BSprague Posts: 2325

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Wow, sorry to diverge from the purpose of this thread, but I just played Oil_'s level, and it was amazing! The puzzles, atmosphere, and the dragon...wow!

2009-06-25 03:45:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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@comphermc - yeah, it's mind-blowing isn't it? @BSprague - I'm not saying you shouldn't have legs, my point is that in-game, in an actual level, players are used to seeing such things as wheeled animals and will let it slide, they are very accepting of abstractness (anyone got a better word?). It doesn't answer the original question in any way.

2009-06-25 10:37:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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they are very accepting of abstractness (anyone got a better word?) They are very accepting of the art direction of the game.

2009-06-25 12:47:00 Author: BSprague Posts: 2325

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Moving parts, stickers, and corner editing. Start off building with something light like cardboard or dissolve. Both of those materials will show alot of detail in points, angles and curves, and both are light enough to support nuanced movements of all kinds using wobble bolts and pistons without an increased risk for snapping/breaking, or weight glitches. The material can be changed later, and tested step by step to see if it will break or not. Stickering can make up for a loss of detail in sticking to cardboard/dissolve. A point of reference, like a picture online, can always be helpful... think of it like drawing a still-life or portrait. It's best to copy pieces of your work over and over, to have back ups in case you make a decision you're not happy with later on. Bild in parts - such as head, torso, limbs, hands, feet etc. They can always be glued, embedded, or attached together later, but it's much easier to make crucial changes to individual sections if they're not all part of the same "too complex" shape, especially when it comes to corner editing the finer details. Just like with cartooning how-to guides, starting with basic shapes like an oval, circle, or ellipse and construct anatomy such as skulls, and muscle-like sections (even if it's a robot or far-fetched concept, it's basic design will still be closely aligned to a realistic basis of proportion and anatomy). Rotate, copy, and embed them together, then use corner editing to fine tune the shapes, and use even smaller shapes to smear in rounded edges or soften up minute details. Wobble bolts and pistons are your friends when it comes to giving an NPC character, enemy, or boss life. Rewind and unpause is going to come into play alot here. If you want a jaw for example, create the skull/head shape, down to the top teeth, then use a piston or two to connect the bottom jaw. You can set them to stiff, and tune them by speed and length to create the movement you want. If your character is built from a side perspective. You'll need thin layers in either the front or the back alot, to connect things together in a way that they will move without looking cluttered and disproportionate. In that case, you would again, build a top portion, and a lower portion, but use a small piece of thin material that will lay flat on both parts. Connect the top portion, in this case, with either glue or a bolt (preferably glue since bolts can slip when weighted and performing complex actions, and are never truly stiff). Then connect the bottom portion with a wobble bolt... Another trick for connecting objects is to create a square of material that is one to three planes thick, then put a thin layer on the front or back of it, and glue them together. Then copy and embed this object into the thick and thin pieces you want to connect - they will instantly be fastened together without gluing or bolting and this is the most secure and reliable way to connect objects on different planes while avoiding the problem of gluing things together that aren't supposed to be connected. All wobble bolts should be adjusted through trial and error - adjust the angle and radius, and unpause to test. every time you add an extension to a moving limb, detach or reattach a piece, it should be retested and readjusted as needed. When thinking of movement, think in terms of joints - shoulders, elbows, wrists, knees, ankles - this will help you come up with characters that are full of life and as realistic as can be given the confines of the engine and the tools you're working with. Stickering should be done to cover blank surfaces, and really focus on finer details, such as line work and shading - there's so many stickers available that you can create the illusion of sketching by combining them together in layers over and over until you have just the right look.Use the gradient stickers, the shadow stickers, and the curved line stickers alot and tastefully. It's always good to use less, but once you've found the right combination, it's easy to redo the stickering in a more efficient way. Also a super-important rule to remember - try to build, corner edit, connect, adjust bolts, and sticker with the object as large possible... it lets you see more details, and will show when shrunken... also, you'll know 100% that if the weight and scale of the object allows it to move without breaking when large, it will work even better when shrunken down to sack-size.

2009-06-25 13:48:00 Author: Unknown User

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Another trick for connecting objects is to create a square of material that is one to three planes thick, then put a thin layer on the front or back of it, and glue them together. Then copy and embed this object into the thick and thin pieces you want to connect - they will instantly be fastened together without gluing or bolting and this is the most secure and reliable way to connect objects on different planes while avoiding the problem of gluing things together that aren't supposed to be connected. ...also, you'll know 100% that if the weight and scale of the object allows it to move without breaking when large, it will work even better when shrunken down to sack-size. Nice tricks, thanks for that. Rep given...

2009-06-25 20:50:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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