Archive: 163 posts

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He's a friend of mine and I swear this guy is unstoppable... he's had 10 levels in the last two weeks get cemented to cool pages, and every level is feeding plays into the other one's (including the one's that aren't on page 1 anymore)... He's got 4 levels on page 1 right now, all grouped together, and has 3 of them spelling out L B P with their icons. I've never seen anybody dominate the system like this before with everything they put out, except if you count the iterations of Fallout 3. I'm not trying to recommend levels, so please don't move this... I'm just trying to discuss like... his strategy or something, and see what people think about it.

2009-06-08 11:30:00 Author: Unknown User

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What exactly are his levels?

2009-06-08 11:44:00 Author: Sackdragon Posts: 427

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what exactly is his strategy?

2009-06-08 11:58:00 Author: Matt 82 Posts: 1096

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Aside from republishing, he had one really successful level (Got Skills?) after an ok one (So You Think You Can Swing)... he made a harder version of Got Skills immediately when it got stuck on the pages, and both ended up with a ton of plays, then he followed them both up with a survival game. He pretty much said that he used that one success and capitalized on it while it was there, and put out 2 or 3 new levels in the same 7 day cycle. He only really spends about a day or two making his levels... they're usually pretty simplistic looking, but colorful, mechanically sound, and full of basic run and jump fun and challenge. The odd thing is that he does have a knack for making things look nice, but doesn't put that into what he's got out right now. His Run For It level, being an addictive "restart 5000 times to get the high score" and creative obstacle course took off like crazy, the sequel, released a couple days later, is now on page 1 with people still playing the original after it's 7 day cycle. Inbetween making those, he made his two Rube Goldberg machine levels, both released with two days of each other. They're actually extremely well done, long, and always work thanks to his single-player only gate. All together, the quickly-released successive sequels are getting an immediate and guaranteed play, and it's all linking together in a chain reaction to where every play on one level leads the player to play his other levels... now that 4 of them are grouped in one spot together, it's snowballing the playcounts even faster. He has updated versions of Got Skills and So You Think You Can Swing, published in new slots, both have made their way onto cool pages to replace the old one's that went off with the 7 day cycle. People who hearted the originals, go back to the old one's, except he's got them rebuilt as a new level that says "sorry, this level is closed. Go play the updated version", effectively giving him a play for his old level, and a guaranteed play for his new level in one motion. I was just like "wow" when I saw LBP spelled out on on the front page this morning. He went from 300 author hearts to several thousand in 2 weeks.

2009-06-08 12:18:00 Author: Unknown User

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This strategy must work because people notice the levels that are on the top page. Now they see that this other level just there is also yours so there's a new layer of curiosity happening. So yeah, each levels are feeding onto the next, just like ALL levels on the top page. With Crazy Train! I did something similar. When I noticed that "Crazy Train! (hard)" was growing into my most successful level ever, I thought of making an "normal difficulty" version along to it. Just when the hard version did hit it's prime time I did publish the normal version. That later one had even more success. So I can totally see the Centurio24 strategy working very good. The more levels you have at the same time, the more they will feed each other on the cool pages. .

2009-06-08 15:59:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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I noticed that too, it seems like he's on Cool Levels everytime I look! I really like his Run For It levels and I played his Got Skiils a long time ago and liked it. I'm surprised he's on Cool Levels, his levels are sometimes difficult and we all know how the average LBP player feels about difficult levels. I'm glad for him.

2009-06-08 16:15:00 Author: brnxblze Posts: 1318

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A little off topic but I noticed yesterday some girl posting her level literally every 2 minutes!!!! I've started republishing mine twice daily and am not even at 50 plays yet with my new level. She had a few thousand plays. If this is what we have to do then my LBP days are numbered.

2009-06-08 16:27:00 Author: mindphaser74 Posts: 349

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I totally notice this and was like... 0_o! It was crazy, but congrats to him. He truely is the kind of cool levels

2009-06-08 16:29:00 Author: Coxy224 Posts: 2645

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A little off topic but I noticed yesterday some girl posting her level literally every 2 minutes!!!! I've started republishing mine twice daily and am not even at 50 plays yet with my new level. She had a few thousand plays. If this is what we have to do then my LBP days are numbered. When Verigo was on cool pages I was surrounded by bomb survival levels and the authors were posting every few minutes to push ahead, plus a number of other levels. I just kind of tired out and left it to fend for itself. Getting to the top of cool pages has several strategies, but if you aren't a well-known author it's definately more of spam republishing trick than a "have a great level" skill. The level title also makes a HUGE difference. When I did "Tiger Woods Mini Golf" I practically didn't have to republish at all to make it to page 1 for several days. If I had ALSO republished constantly it probably would have had tons more plays. If people really like your level, however, the hearts and rating push it up cool pages MUCH faster.

2009-06-08 16:41:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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That's pretty interesting. I wonder if releasing a bunch of levels at the same time has an impact on the likelihood of them hanging onto Cool Levels? Maybe when publishing a new level, one ought to republish every one of their good levels at the same time to get a better shot? I'll have to experiment on that. Since none of my levels ever really hit the "big time" I don't mind republishing them again to try it out.

2009-06-08 16:43:00 Author: Gilgamesh Posts: 2536

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I can say from my experience with the Cool pages, whenever you get on to Page1, you have a constant stream of people playing your level. Last time I checked I was getting between 20 and 30 people playing at the same time continuously. Now, depending on how many people actually enjoy your level or not, you get a certain amount that after playing the level on page 1 feel like checking out your other levels. Right now if you check out my levels you will probably see about 3-5 continuously people playing every level I have published. This is purely down to having a level on page 1 at the moment. This is a great way to get older levels played. For example, when my "Wizard of Odd" level was done with cool pages it had about 25,0000 plays on it. Right now it has roughly double than that. Thats from people checking it out after other levels made it on. On a side note, I published a little survival challenge the other day ( I set myself a project to see could I produce a level in a day) Anyway, after publishing I republished only a few times with some minor bug fixes. Basically, this level has been brought up the cool pages from traffic directly related to my level on page 1.

2009-06-08 17:04:00 Author: wexfordian Posts: 1904

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I can say from my experience with the Cool pages, whenever you get on to Page1, you have a constant stream of people playing your level. Last time I checked I was getting between 20 and 30 people playing at the same time continuously. Now, depending on how many people actually enjoy your level or not, you get a certain amount that after playing the level on page 1 feel like checking out your other levels. Right now if you check out my levels you will probably see about 3-5 continuously people playing every level I have published. This is purely down to having a level on page 1 at the moment. This is a great way to get older levels played. For example, when my "Wizard of Odd" level was done with cool pages it had about 25,0000 plays on it. Right now it has roughly double than that. Thats from people checking it out after other levels made it on. On a side note, I published a little survival challenge the other day ( I set myself a project to see could I produce a level in a day) Anyway, after publishing I republished only a few times with some minor bug fixes. Basically, this level has been brought up the cool pages from traffic directly related to my level on page 1. It's funny you say this, because when I see you or anyone I know on page 1, I always drill down and take a look at how much traffic you're getting on your other levels AND also check out other creators that have not-so-good levels on page 1 (like bomb levels). If your level is quality, it peeks peoples interest and they want to know what else you have done - so you get tons of plays on your other levels. If your level isn't so good, it doesn't really attract people to your other levels. When I published Tiger Woods Mini Golf, I ended up getting over 2000 plays combined between my other levels - and I didn't get nearly the kind of plays you generally get. Another thing I noticed is that if you do levels with replay value you get continuous plays from that point on. I've noticed in the last few weeks a steady stream of people playing a number of my levels even though I have none on cool pages at all. It's actually rare that SOMEONE isn't playing Tiger Woods. This whole last weeking it at least had 1 or 2 plays going on continuously. I LOVE the new attribute that shows how many people are currently playing your levels.

2009-06-08 17:21:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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A little off topic but I noticed yesterday some girl posting her level literally every 2 minutes!!!! I've started republishing mine twice daily and am not even at 50 plays yet with my new level. She had a few thousand plays. If this is what we have to do then my LBP days are numbered. Republishing can be tedious but to me it's just a matter of seeing things differently. You can see it negatively and not have fun, you can make PART of the fun. Publishing each 2 mins is obviously ridiculous but I enjoy publishing my new levels like each 15-20 mins. When I just finished a level, it's fun to make it climb the pages. You advertise it on the net and republish it often when you're home. I'm also publishing late in the week and republish alot after 9pm so I spare myself some kids messing my rating. I understand where you're coming from as I am myself 30 yrs old and living with my girlfriend that isn't really a gamer (yet). I don't have time to constantly republish. But since after 9pm i'll probably be playing LBP anyways, I take that 7 days of gaming and "incorporate" publishing into my gaming time. Most of time i'm playing a user level, then I go republish mine if there's less than 10 peep playing. After that, I go play another user level, come back, see if there's still 10 people playing. If not, I republish. I kind of create myself an amusing rythm with it. I make it fun somehow. .

2009-06-08 17:26:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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lol he's got 5 levels on there now, and used them to spell out "I [Heart] LBP" He's halfway done with a new "Level That Plays Itself" too, so expect another one to keep the ball rolling. Only problem with keeping up this momentum, is he's down to his last publish space, and will have to delete something to free up more room - not only does that mean he'll lose a level, but that he'll lose the playcounts and hearts to go with it, unless he overwrites an old save spot, which won't put the level on cool pages.

2009-06-08 19:18:00 Author: Unknown User

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lol, seems i'm not the only one to notice then. Well, he is quite a good creator, and apparently mastered the art of publishing as well. Well, i guess it is better to publish various levels at around the same time

2009-06-08 19:25:00 Author: Silverleon Posts: 6707

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Yeah I don't even have levels, but I've noticed this phenomenon, when I whacked up my last little demo, the plays on my demitters demo took a jump and I also got a few plays on my lockbox, oh I do hope they found the booby trap *sniggers*

2009-06-08 19:44:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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I'm not sure personally I like what he's doing... there's only so many slots that will fit into cool pages, and trying to tie up a bunch of slots for yourself is kind of selfish... kind of like taking half the cherry pie for yourself when there's a whole dinner table of people that would like some. I was trying to "honestly" have Vertigo climb cool pages, when I was surrounded by bomb levels and the 10th post of the Little Big High School levels, all of which were low quality levels with people posting every 2 minutes around me. I just kind of gave up after a bit because my wife and child wanted to do things with me. Keep in mind, for every level you start trying to push up you are pushing other levels - which may be great levels by authors that can't sit there all day spam publishing - DOWN the cool pages (yes, that's right - levels can also move down if other levels are pushed up) At some point it's good to keep in mind that there are other people with quality levels that people may want to play besides yours. I'm honestly not impressed someone can eat half the pie themselves, and also feel that if EVERYONE starts taking this mentality cool pages will heavily suffer even more than it does now.

2009-06-08 20:08:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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I have to agree with CCubbage. Having multiple levels from the same author on one page of Cool Levels is ultimately detrimental to the other creators. Maybe we could badger MM to put a one-level-per-creator limit on each Cool Levels page? Another flaw in the system I guess...

2009-06-08 20:17:00 Author: Gilgamesh Posts: 2536

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I noticed it yesterday. It's effective to be sure. I think I'm falling onto Cubbage's side of the opinion meter on this one. Its effective but is it at the expense of other creators chances?

2009-06-08 20:17:00 Author: Morgana25 Posts: 5983

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Man, I've played his levels but, quite honestly...I hope I don't get flamed for this...I think this guy's levels are a bit overrated. I mean, it's impressive to see someone have the skill to make a level that plays by itself but...5 stars? I thought it was a bit short and under-decorated to be honest but still, his levels are enjoyable. I guess he's just amazingly popular. ...Too popular...

2009-06-08 20:24:00 Author: KoRnDawwg Posts: 1424

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New term: "LittleBigGluttons" Someone who will push a bunch of levels of their own at once so they can hog as much attention as they possibly can, regardless of the affect it has on other creators. Extreme example: Little Big High School - totally deleted and republished all 3 lower-quality levels at once and republished every 5 minutes around my level so that I couldn't get decent plays without giving up my life and republishing constantly.

2009-06-08 20:37:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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I'm not sure personally I like what he's doing... there's only so many slots that will fit into cool pages, and trying to tie up a bunch of slots for yourself is kind of selfish... kind of like taking half the cherry pie for yourself when there's a whole dinner table of people that would like some. I was trying to "honestly" have Vertigo climb cool pages, when I was surrounded by bomb levels and the 10th post of the Little Big High School levels, all of which were low quality levels with people posting every 2 minutes around me. I just kind of gave up after a bit because my wife and child wanted to do things with me. Keep in mind, for every level you start trying to push up you are pushing other levels - which may be great levels by authors that can't sit there all day spam publishing - DOWN the cool pages (yes, that's right - levels can also move down if other levels are pushed up) At some point it's good to keep in mind that there are other people with quality levels that people may want to play besides yours. I'm honestly not impressed someone can eat half the pie themselves, and also feel that if EVERYONE starts taking this mentality cool pages will heavily suffer even more than it does now. I know what you mean, and you could be right about it setting a bad trend, by people who will abuse anything, but, he hasn't really done it through republishing though. He's always on when I'm on, and I maybe see a few republishes a day, usually when he updates something. That's what I like about it, is for once, someone has maintained this status and taken it up to a new level that I haven't seen before but done through the merits of their work and with a strong work ethic - the guy is a machine with the type of levels he makes, and has been on a binge like I used to get. They're definitely not the best levels, but they have a very solid level of consistency between them (I do think the Rube Goldberg one's are some of the best of their kind though). Some of the updated/hard/normal stuff may be a bit questionable, but he does alter them, and it does suit peoples skill levels differences, but it's not garbage like Ramp getting stamped on by the system we used to have, it's not some kid republishing 5 million times a day, he doesn't do any H4H anything, he doesn't even use forums to promote... it's not a bunch of ridiculous Fallout 3 versions and copycats, or school levels. It's just nice to see a real creator stomp all over the competition - and I don't mean us, I mean the aforementioned parasites. I know it's not just based on flooding the page with levels either, because when I touched up and relaunched almost every single one of my levels in a new slot from scratch all at the same time, it didn't stick any of them to cool pages at all, and didn't bring me any traffic for the couple of levels I left as is. I snapped a pic of his 5 level "I LOVE LBP" montage on page 1, and IMO, he deserves a crown for it. If I knew how to recommend people, I would.

2009-06-08 21:08:00 Author: Unknown User

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I know what you mean, and you could be right about it setting a bad trend, by people who will abuse anything, but, he hasn't really done it through republishing though. He's always on when I'm on, and I maybe see a few republishes a day, usually when he updates something. That's what I like about it, is for once, someone has maintained this status and taken it up to a new level that I haven't seen before but done through the merits of their work and with a strong work ethic - the guy is a machine with the type of levels he makes, and has been on a binge like I used to get. They're definitely not the best levels, but they have a very solid level of consistency between them (I do think the Rube Goldberg one's are some of the best of their kind though). Some of the updated/hard/normal stuff may be a bit questionable, but he does alter them, and it does suit peoples skill levels differences, but it's not garbage like Ramp getting stamped on by the system we used to have, it's not some kid republishing 5 million times a day, he doesn't do any H4H anything, he doesn't even use forums to promote... it's not a bunch of ridiculous Fallout 3 versions and copycats, or school levels. It's just nice to see a real creator stomp all over the competition - and I don't mean us, I mean the aforementioned parasites. I know it's not just based on flooding the page with levels either, because when I touched up and relaunched almost every single one of my levels in a new slot from scratch all at the same time, it didn't stick any of them to cool pages at all, and didn't bring me any traffic for the couple of levels I left as is. I snapped a pic of his 5 level "I LOVE LBP" montage on page 1, and IMO, he deserves a crown for it. If I knew how to recommend people, I would. I agree to an extent... however, still - putting out enough levels in a calculated way to do that is still preventing a number of other deserving levels from being there - and I know from personal experience it really isn't that hard to get high in cool pages with some specific practices. I've personally helped MANY creators levels get to page 1, and can pretty much controllably do it at will - but knowing how it works and watching other creators levels stall because of some creators needing attention certainly prevents me from pushing that much at once. With Tiger Woods Mini Golf I went to Josh, one of my employees, and said "Watch this... easy, non-threatening gameplay, Tiger Woods in the name, will be played multiple times, and cute graphics - watch this!". Couple days later page 1. I'm not saying he has a bad motivation, but it definately hurts other creators chances of getting plays.

2009-06-08 21:55:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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I have to agree with CCubbage. Having multiple levels from the same author on one page of Cool Levels is ultimately detrimental to the other creators. Maybe we could badger MM to put a one-level-per-creator limit on each Cool Levels page? Another flaw in the system I guess... Yeah, that's not quite fair either though. What if someone wants to release a two part or three part series at the same time or for that matter...rerelease a series they have made over time. Should they not be allowed to try that? I'm very curious to see if this little exhibition ends up snowballing into something else down the line. He is up there..fair and square but for now it seems like a thin line he's walking with the others creators out in the community. Curious to hear how people feel about this whole thing.

2009-06-08 22:07:00 Author: Jaeyden Posts: 564

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I think you guys are bringing it a bit far. How is not fair to publish your level whenever you want? common there. If your unique level is republished just as much as his bunch, you will totally make the cool pages. If you didn't, republish after 7 days when his bunch is gone. I mean, who is he blocking if his level will be gone in 7 days like anybody else? I hardly can see multi publishing as unfair really. And it wouldn't lead anywhere to have new publishing constraint. It's the design of the whole thing that is flawed to begin with, you wouldn't repair the thing but just create other problems. If the game was promoting levels properly, we wouldn't be republishing this much to begin with. .

2009-06-08 22:16:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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Hmm... you keep saying that stuff that he shouldn't be doing that, yet i'm pretty sure if it was someone known in the centrall you'd all just be cheering for him/her... >_>

2009-06-08 22:37:00 Author: Silverleon Posts: 6707

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** Hear me out ** Keep in mind, there's a difference between being "fair" and "considerate". I'm certainly not suggesting that he isn't being "fair" and I'm not suggesting there be a rule in the system. The fact is, with the current system it takes updating and republishing to be seen. It takes getting some initial hearts and ratings to prevent it from being taken down by initial 1-star ratings. I'm not arguing what people are "allowed" to do. It's more about the LBP community as a whole being considerate. After watching cool pages and experimenting the last few months, I regard it as a pushing and shoving match. It took me a LOT of work, for instance, to launch Splat Invaders Saga - after getting up to page 5 the whole "bomb survival" levels started and people spam posted so much around me I simply gave up. I want you guys to think of some statistics: How many levels can fit on page 1 at one time? 20 or 30 max? How many people are publishing levels every week? Thousands? What happens if everyone decides to start republishing their levels that already have 10,000 plays over and over in groups so they can push all their levels up at one time? This system is simply not designed to handle it, and many deserving creators will be pushed out by others that can sit there and publish constantly every day. And all the creators at once getting this idea on this site is a dangerous thing IMO. All I'm trying to do is pose a different viewpoint so that MAYBE new levels including mine get a chance to get some plays. Honestly, on my next level I may just take vacation days and send my wife and child to a hotel for a few days so I can sit at home and hit the republish button all day to compete. Hmm... you keep saying that stuff that he shouldn't be doing that, yet i'm pretty sure if it was someone known in the centrall you'd all just be cheering for him/her... >_> That's not true. That would by hypocritical. I actually thought of this idea a few weeks ago and looked at the great LBPC levels being released and decided not to. I'm actually posing this thought based on my own rules I imposed on myself. Part of the fun of playing LBP is having people play your levels and I think everyone should experience it, but also keep in mind the limitations of the system so we don't completely ruin a good thing.

2009-06-08 22:47:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Honestly, on my next level I may just take vacation days and send my wife and child to a hotel for a few days so I can sit at home and hit the republish button all day to compete. Ideal wife right there. lol .

2009-06-08 23:15:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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I don't think it's a discussion about who's doing it as much as a discusion as to whether it's a practice that's benefiting at the expense of other creators. For a minute take out the whole "fair" thing. If this was marketing - which in a way it is - he's found an advantage in the market. Giving the consumer easy to find levels that offer variation and playability. The visual tie in using the I heart LBP is another level of marketing as it's sort of like havning a brand identity. It's actually a brilliant strategy. Now back in the optimistic/idyllic LBP world it sort of leaves a bad taste. It's not exactly the nicest thing to eat up cool page spaces but he's managed to do what a lot of creators can only dream of. I'm not a huge fan of the practice and I think it's sort of unfair but like many things in this world - it doesn't have to be fair.

2009-06-08 23:42:00 Author: Morgana25 Posts: 5983

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You do make some good points, Ccub. What I think is noteable is his base design philosophy... basic, simple... only one level (Got Skills?) is even close to full thermometer. It's all driven solely by a 100% focus on platforming only - no puzzles, no complex and carefully crafted environments, no real themes or settings of any kind, no stories, no characters or effects... just bright colors, lego style, fast action, and bare bones platforming. They're not so basic that they feel like Ramp where there's retardation showing or those tank levels we were playing last night lol, and the mechanics of the Play Itself ones are really well made with a solid understanding of how things work in the game... it's like he found the right balance for making "popular" levels - eliminating all the frills, and I think it's because design ideas of any kind split the user base; one man's trash is another man's treasure basically. Something that can be taken from it, is that if you really, really, really want to be on cool pages all the time, the blueprint is there and it doesn't take any 100 hour create sessions and migraines to do it... but you probably won't be happy with your own work without giving it your all and going above and beyond for yourself.

2009-06-09 00:02:00 Author: Unknown User

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Until a bunch of people start doing it.... then cool pages is filled constantly will perpetually with less quality levels that experienced gamers don't like as much... it will only work for a short period of time. Do I hear perpetual bomb levels, anyone?

2009-06-09 00:11:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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What I think is noteable is his base design philosophy... basic, simple... only one level (Got Skills?) is even close to full thermometer. It's all driven solely by a 100% focus on platforming only - no puzzles, no complex and carefully crafted environments, no real themes or settings of any kind, no stories, no characters or effects... just bright colors, lego style, fast action, and bare bones platforming. I love his "Got Skills" level. It must be hard for most people but I had a blast. He simply make use of pretty much all you know in matter of Sackboy physics, the difficulty is just right and it's non-stop platforming madness until you reach the leaderboard. I loved it. Gameplay madness. .

2009-06-09 02:52:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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Yeah, well now he has an anti "H4H" level on page 2. It also looks like it took all of about 30 minutes to make the entire thing. I respect the message but really where does it get us? When I go to the cool pages I want to find "COOL LEVELS!" ..... not this stuff. Maybe it has gone too far?

2009-06-09 04:58:00 Author: Jaeyden Posts: 564

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Exactly. You're starting to see where I'm coming from. It's certainly "fair" and "legal", but not really nice nor beneficial to the LBP community. I was on page 3 with Vertigo, almost ready to move to page 2 when "3" lousy LittleBig High School levels (which a few weeks already had in excess of 50,000 plays and had been deleted and republished!) were pushed up at the same time AND another bomb drop level was spam publishing around me (it was exactly the same as the other bomb levels and was pushed up to advertise a different level). This caused my level to stall because I really didn't feel like inconveniencing the people on my friends list by having my level published every 5 minutes keep appearing on their screen (I honestly couldn't stomach the thought), and I didn't want to babysit my level for the entire day (my wife was getting a bit aggravated). Those 3 high school levels AND the bomb drop level then sat on page 1 for the rest of the time. Mine only made it to page 2. All it takes is 1 additional level that you really didn't "need" there to prevent another deserving level from getting an additional 10,000 plays. As I said, definately fair... I just didn't find it very considerate or amusing. The experience actually took quite a bit of fun away from me, and from those that never got a chance to play Vertigo. It was getting GREAT stars, ratings, and comments from everyone so I know the community would have enjoyed it being on page 1. Right now his bunch of levels may be preventing GrantusUK's new one from getting to page 1, which I think would be a shame because it definately deserves it. And I know some of you might feel I'm taking this thought too far and people should be able to do what they want, but in all honesty the process is really starting to tire me out.

2009-06-09 10:07:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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What I think is noteable is his base design philosophy... basic, simple... only one level (Got Skills?) is even close to full thermometer. It's all driven solely by a 100% focus on platforming only - no puzzles, no complex and carefully crafted environments, no real themes or settings of any kind, no stories, no characters or effects... just bright colors, lego style, fast action, and bare bones platforming. So appealing to the LCD? This is why people are against it, he is chucking out basic levels - why is that something to be proud of or impressed by? I'm sure there are plenty of creators here who could chuck out 10 thoughtless levels a day with stock platforming and hazards and spam the world with them. But they don't because they have pride in their creations. I can apreciate the frustration that CCubbage etc. feel about this whole topic and I do agree with your viewpoint about pointless levels muscling out the worthwhile ones. But honestly, I don't know why mature, intelligent adults are fussing over a system that they know is fundamentally broken (I've seen no one advocate that viewpoint more than you CCubbage) and will never, ever be more than a popularity contest where a very large number of the voters do not appreciate quality, or effort or artistic endeavour - they just want a quick, basic, platforming fix. The ammount of time it takes me to create playable stuff in LBP (as opposed to gizmos) will mean that I will never produce much. The style of what I do produce will not appeal to a lot of players. However, most of what I produce I am proud of and I will have enjoyed making. Thats probably enough. I'll listen to feedback of players and enhance it, to make it more enjoyable for them and to hone my skills. If 10 people play and love a level I've created and I enjoyed making it I'll be happy. Hell, if there is a single person who doesn't hate it, then that is enough external validation for me. I'll never make it to cool pages, I really, really don't expect to. If I ever do make it there I'll certainly be happy and take it as a bonus, probably brag about it plenty as well But I will never let myself get beaten down by the pressure of trying to fight and get stressed over something as worthless as a spot on cool pages. I'll quit before that happens.

2009-06-09 11:00:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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You know what I think about the strategy of cranking out levels... I respect, first, that he has been working around the clock religiously, for the last 4 weeks making levels, and has put as much work in as any of the best creators I know usually do in the span of a month, regardless of how LCD the levels are. What I also think about it, is in a comparison to the music industry. When geosautus started, World of Color was his flagship title, and that really is not anywhere near the pinnacle of what LBP creators have to offer... but in the old system, it stuck to the page for months, and rewarded him with 10's of thousands of author hearts. Anything he released after that, which was of much better quality, was an immediate smash hit. He built a fan base by appealing to the LCD. When you're a new artist in the industry, and consciously vying for mass appeal in the mainstream, you don't bear your soul and innermost thoughts with experimental, thought provoking music, and high art concepts... you make catchy, easy to digest, repetitive club, easy listening, pop music and rely on gimmicks like fashion, shock value, sex appeal, marketing and PR, and big budget music videos. If there's a real artist inside, wanting to express, but you still want mainstream multi-platinum and international success on TV and radio... you can't get deep and introspective, or socially conscious with your music until at least your 4th album, and after 10 years of success with a loyal fanbase to back you up with trust, and a media that respects you. CENTURION's doing what Lil Wayne did - mixtape after mixtape after mixtape, non stop working. He's on his last spot for publishing, and he's only been making levels a couple months or so... he can only improve, and I don't think he'll be willing to delete a level completely for something that's not worth it. The H4H one will probably go first heh Yeah, well now he has an anti "H4H" level on page 2. It also looks like it took all of about 30 minutes to make the entire thing. I respect the message but really where does it get us? When I go to the cool pages I want to find "COOL LEVELS!" ..... not this stuff. Maybe it has gone too far? Yeah, it definitely was a half hour level. I didn't laugh when he showed it to me. I've been tired of anti-H4H levels for awhile now, no matter how good. It hasn't been funny to me since deboerdave made Ramp 2 and Ninja Pro Awfome MEGA MANN point fest which was so over the top ridiculous, and like... a subliminal mockery of everything that's wrong with 90% of the levels out there. That was style at it's best lol Just so you guys know though... when his levels were getting on page 1, he was adding in advertisement sections and promoting levels with pics and magic mouths - he did it for me and deboerdave, and the most recent one was an ad for The Ancient Castle by OIL_ after we showed it to him, 'cause he knows that it got so badly overlooked for plays, ratings, and hearts.

2009-06-09 12:36:00 Author: Unknown User

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My posts are definately for the sole purpose of promoting principles and keeping the practice in check. Sometimes people need a reminder to be consious of how actions affect others. This forum is influencial enough to where having members understand this can have a pretty big influence on other's enjoyment of cool pages. In the music industry, it's important to sell your music because it's your livelyhood - the record companies have shareholders to think about. In Littlebigplanet, it's there for everyone to enjoy and it's the "considerate" thing to keep in mind other players in your practices. It's a game, not a business. Ever since I joined this forum I've been a "little" about myself and a "lot" about helping others to have successful levels, because I want them to have just as much fun as me. It would be really difficult to convince me that using popularity to eat up multiple slots on cool pages 1 is a nice thing. Also, this kind of practice will definately create a backlash from others who see it and decide to start doing it themselves for attention. I'll stop posting my opinions here now and go back to having fun.

2009-06-09 13:20:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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This post will read like it's wildly off topic, but it is a metaphor that pretty much agrees with lots of the comments in this thread and is kinda relevent to the state of cool pages and this guy as well. Plus, ninjaMicWZ started the metaphors you make catchy, easy to digest, repetitive club, easy listening, pop music and rely on gimmicks like fashion, shock value, sex appeal, marketing and PR, and big budget music videos. I believe in the music industry, this is commonly known as "selling out". Last I heard it isn't really considered something impressive or respectable. Also, most recording artists who start this way generally stay (more or less) sold out, because of the convenience. Sometimes the ones who last mellow out, over a period of many years, but I think that has more to do with age and/or maturity than anything else. Really, really bad analogy there. Continuing your analogy, I'd like you to consider hip-hop. A genre which is now infested with poppy sell-out "artists", who have moderate skill and almost nothing to say. Standard is to crank out a new album each year, about as quickly as possible in the music world, with a couple of hit singles, a few skits and some filler tracks. Stock content. Where are the artistic rappers? The ones who have something to express, who inovate, who have passion and soul? The KRSs and the Public Enemies and the Rakims of our time? They are there, but you have to really hunt for them, because the sell-out, quick buck, LCD appealing, poppy rappers take all the limelight and hide the good stuff away from the public eye. As it is with Hip hop, so it is with Cool Pages. The interesting, inovative, experimental and creative levels (the ones worth supporting) are out there, but you really have to go looking for them, and their visibility is ruined by the LCD.

2009-06-09 13:40:00 Author: rtm223 Posts: 6497

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This post will read like it's wildly off topic, but it is a metaphor that pretty much agrees with lots of the comments in this thread and is kinda relevent to the state of cool pages and this guy as well. Plus, ninjaMicWZ started the metaphors I believe in the music industry, this is commonly known as "selling out". Last I heard it isn't really considered something impressive or respectable. Also, most recording artists who start this way generally stay (more or less) sold out, because of the convenience. Sometimes the ones who last mellow out, over a period of many years, but I think that has more to do with age and/or maturity than anything else. Really, really bad analogy there. Continuing your analogy, I'd like you to consider hip-hop. A genre which is now infested with poppy sell-out "artists", who have moderate skill and almost nothing to say. Standard is to crank out a new album each year, about as quickly as possible in the music world, with a couple of hit singles, a few skits and some filler tracks. Stock content. Where are the artistic rappers? The ones who have something to express, who inovate, who have passion and soul? The KRSs and the Public Enemies and the Rakims of our time? They are there, but you have to really hunt for them, because the sell-out, quick buck, LCD appealing, poppy rappers take all the limelight and hide the good stuff away from the public eye. As it is with Hip hop, so it is with Cool Pages. The interesting, inovative, experimental and creative levels (the ones worth supporting) are out there, but you really have to go looking for them, and their visibility is ruined by the LCD. Although my point has more to do with "You can get to the front of the line in a donut shop and buy as many donuts as possible not regarding the fact that there are people in line behind you that also may want one". 2 COMPLETELY different points are being made here - yes, you CAN do short levels and be popular..... it just isn't considerate to eat all the pie yourself and be a glutton about it. I COULD have built 8 Tiger Woods levels quickly and done the exact same thing... I didn't because I want other people to succeed also.

2009-06-09 13:59:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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This post will read like it's wildly off topic, but it is a metaphor that pretty much agrees with lots of the comments in this thread and is kinda relevent to the state of cool pages and this guy as well. Plus, ninjaMicWZ started the metaphors I believe in the music industry, this is commonly known as "selling out". Last I heard it isn't really considered something impressive or respectable. Also, most recording artists who start this way generally stay (more or less) sold out, because of the convenience. Sometimes the ones who last mellow out, over a period of many years, but I think that has more to do with age and/or maturity than anything else. Really, really bad analogy there. Continuing your analogy, I'd like you to consider hip-hop. A genre which is now infested with poppy sell-out "artists", who have moderate skill and almost nothing to say. Standard is to crank out a new album each year, about as quickly as possible in the music world, with a couple of hit singles, a few skits and some filler tracks. Stock content. Where are the artistic rappers? The ones who have something to express, who inovate, who have passion and soul? The KRSs and the Public Enemies and the Rakims of our time? They are there, but you have to really hunt for them, because the sell-out, quick buck, LCD appealing, poppy rappers take all the limelight and hide the good stuff away from the public eye. As it is with Hip hop, so it is with Cool Pages. The interesting, inovative, experimental and creative levels (the ones worth supporting) are out there, but you really have to go looking for them, and their visibility is ruined by the LCD. Hip-hop was definitely my basis for the example... I eat, sleep, and breathe it heh that's what the mic in my name is for. When I was younger, selling out used to be the antithesis of everything I believed in about music, including my own. The older I've gotten though, and the more people I've met who strive to live off their music, and either fail or succeed I'm alot less hard nosed about it. I've gained a respect for people who do what it takes to get to the top and change things from within, and can balance integrity with commercial appeal, and ultimately gain a long lasting and lucrative career out of it that benefits their family, friends, and increases the scope and monetary value of the music industry as a source of jobs for artists and people in all walks of life. It functions as a six degrees of separation when a select few artists sell 3 million albums, and everybody thrives off this solid core that ties it all together and keeps it moving. Since the decline of mainstream sales in the last two years... no one can make money in the underground either, unless they do live shows and tour non stop. Example: 50 Cent... if 50 hadn't gotten the million dollar deal, Lloyd Banks would have never got on at all, and wouldn't be able to get $25,000 for a live show. At the same time, he turned his back on Lloyd Banks when the law and media started to scrutinize his enterprise and limit his business possibilities, putting money before your partners. Not good, and very few artists can really walk that line with morals in the industry. I recently watched a 60 Minutes interview with DMX in prison... when he was being hounded about his negative content and how it affects children. He just rationalized it articulately, as slick talk, and kept emphasizing how he began and ended every album with a prayer... how it ties together, and when you look at the big picture, the albums as a whole serve as a warning to anyone curious about the lifestyle, not to get involved. That's definitely a talent, to walk the line, and use such a high profile platform as an opportunity to entice people in and teach them when you gain their trust. That's how 5 percenter preachers always worked too. That's not really a metaphor for THIS situation, just my thoughts on that as a separate issue. I could get deep into hip-hop politics and history for hours, but that's better suited for a different message board lol and Ccub's right. It's a game, not a business heh (P.S. check out Mos Def's new album... it's almost perfect. Much better than New Danger and Blue Magic)

2009-06-09 14:24:00 Author: Unknown User

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hey guys, This thread is funny. LBP is serious business lawl

2009-06-09 14:44:00 Author: snowflakecat Posts: 102

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wow this thread has gotten pretty heated lol i just like to say, you got to give props to centurion for pulling off getting a bunch of his levels on the front page. people get a thrill from the levels that play themself levels and he used that idea to promote his other levels platforming levels (he's good and making them and enjoys making). But it really pushed up his platforming levels which are actually fun and adictive. Got skills was the first level i played from him after i met him from him trying to top my score on the Red Zone level i made. I was impressed and satisfied to see some solid platforming. Following up with his Swing level and Run for it levels, these are all great platforming levels. Addictive, fun, strong pace with the right amount of challenge to keep you wanting to beat and play it agian. You cant say that throwing out strictly platforming level with simplistic looks is a bad thing. It just a different type of creativity to create addictive platforming elements and string them together which is what he likes to do. I have played plenty of level that "look" bueatiful but the game play is boring that i will never play that level again. When levels combine both of these aspects the level rarely does not make it to the top. And someone occuping 5 slots surely wont stop it either. If someone thinks it is easy to get all your levels on page1 lets see someone pull off 20 slots. ... that would be epic and deserve a crown...(littlebigappocolypse should just be given this honor for a week after the release of the final episode)

2009-06-09 14:54:00 Author: deboerdave Posts: 384

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I agree, debo... it's definitely a certain kind of creativity not everyone has. That's the hardest thing for me, actually, is just coming up with fun platforming segments and obstacles in levels... I was just saying that in a thread on another board, coincidentally. ...and yeah, JonMartin's series is epic. Nothing else like it, and I wish those would occupy 20 spots on cool pages at one time... just for being the only person to fill 20 slots with a cohesive, quality series so creative, and making it feel like it's own full-fledged game is something nobody else has come close to doing. I agree that he should get one, but MM seems to only give them for wild stunts, contests, and super-hype - all CENTURION's levels dominate the pages like the Contra project did, but it's just one creator, and did the stunt with the I HEART LBP message - that's why I think it deserves one. I sent the pic to Spaff on PSN.

2009-06-09 15:01:00 Author: Unknown User

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I'm not personally getting heated, but knowing the way cool pages works and watching it carefully for several months, it's a LOT less impressive to me to get levels to the top. Check out some of these situations: #1. Dude a few weeks ago got to page 2 by playing his own level OVER 2000 TIMES. Heart ratio wasn't very good, but he did it!!!! (umm..... 14 hearts....) #2. I can get all my employees (virtually all of them have PS3's and LittleBigPlanet) to heart and 5 star rate EVERY LEVEL I HAVE and each give it 20 plays and immediately push WAY up in cool pages and have it look legitimate. And since I have quite a few quality levels I could personally accomplish a bunch of levels on page 1!!! (by the way, as a community we can certainly do this with Apocalypse.... just let me know ahead of time so I'm not one of the people trying to get a tiny bit of attention for my level at the same time) #3. I can take a week of vacation, delete and republish every level I have.... AND REPOST ALL DAY EVERY DAY TO GET CONTINUOUS PLAYS UNTIL I GET TO THE TOP!!!! I've watched levels with 4 star ratings and 20% hearts that had every quality of a 100,000 play level not get to the top simply because the creators weren't able to sit there and babysit their level all day. (Siberia series, anyone????) There's a FEW levels that are on the top of cool pages because they truly deserve it - but for the most part, it's more dilligence than skill.

2009-06-09 15:16:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Man, can I call you guys at the office when I publish my next level? .

2009-06-09 15:30:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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Man, can I call you guys at the office when I publish my next level? . No problem, man! We'll re-publish Crazy Train (hard), Crazy train (normal), Sack's in the City, Ultra-Beginners and Girlfriends (hard), Ultra-Beginners and Girlfriends (normal), Banana Horde, Banana Horde (bomb drop edition) AND Sack's in the City alternate-museum-paintings edition (ah... I miss the original naming fiasco of this one) at the same time.... we'll put so many hearts and plays on them that when we unlock them they will be on page 3..... then we'll REPUBLISH LIKE THE WIND until all of them are sitting pretty on page 1 together 6 hours later. THEN, we'll change the icons to read "R*A*N*G*E*R*Z*E*R*O" in big bold red letters across cool pages!!!! And we'll make sure you and you alone get plays and hearts for the whole week! GrantosUK will be stuck on page 3.... shoot, I'm SURE he didn't work hard on his level anyway! . You're SURE to get a crown! (sarcasm not intended..... really....)

2009-06-09 19:12:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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No problem, man! We'll re-publish Crazy Train (hard), Crazy train (normal), Sack's in the City, Ultra-Beginners and Girlfriends (hard), Ultra-Beginners and Girlfriends (normal), Banana Horde, Banana Horde (bomb drop edition) AND Sack's in the City alternate-museum-paintings edition (ah... I miss the original naming fiasco of this one) at the same time.... we'll put so many hearts and plays on them that when we unlock them they will be on page 3..... then we'll REPUBLISH LIKE THE WIND until all of them are sitting pretty on page 1 together 6 hours later. THEN, we'll change the icons to read "R*A*N*G*E*R*Z*E*R*O" in big bold red letters across cool pages!!!! And we'll make sure you and you alone get plays and hearts for the whole week! GrantosUK will be stuck on page 3.... shoot, I'm SURE he didn't work hard on his level anyway! . You're SURE to get a crown! (sarcasm not intended..... really....) This post wins harder than acing Bunker.

2009-06-09 21:04:00 Author: Loius Posts: 342

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No problem, man! We'll re-publish Crazy Train (hard), Crazy train (normal), Sack's in the City, Ultra-Beginners and Girlfriends (hard), Ultra-Beginners and Girlfriends (normal), Banana Horde, Banana Horde (bomb drop edition) AND Sack's in the City alternate-museum-paintings edition (ah... I miss the original naming fiasco of this one) at the same time.... we'll put so many hearts and plays on them that when we unlock them they will be on page 3..... then we'll REPUBLISH LIKE THE WIND until all of them are sitting pretty on page 1 together 6 hours later. THEN, we'll change the icons to read "R*A*N*G*E*R*Z*E*R*O" in big bold red letters across cool pages!!!! And we'll make sure you and you alone get plays and hearts for the whole week! GrantosUK will be stuck on page 3.... shoot, I'm SURE he didn't work hard on his level anyway! . You're SURE to get a crown! (sarcasm not intended..... really....) He doesn't republish much though, and these levels were all brand new, published as they were finished aside from the two updated and hard versions. Now if you were to make 10 brand new decent levels that people seem to love playing and replaying within the span of a week after only a month or so of learning LBP's mechanics with little to no prior understanding of how cool pages works by working around the clock in create mode, but don't advertise on the internet at all, republish a bunch to get the first couple started off right, put keys in your levels, then let the rest do the work for you to unintentionally succeed, celebrate your success with a clever page 1 arrangement of logos, AND advertise other creators levels in your own (friends and non-friends alike) all while still working Monday to Friday with a wife and kid (he does too)... then you'd be like CENTURION24. Otherwise you'd just be manipulating the system, rehashing old material, hogging the limelight, and being unoriginal. Seriously though, I'm not trying to get on you, but I know he wasn't doing this all underhanded and manipulative like that. It just kind of happened.

2009-06-09 21:30:00 Author: Unknown User

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This thread has inspired me to try a little cross-promotion myself. New level (made in about 2 hours, though it's a pretty decent survival level) followed by putting keys for every level at the end of all my levels. We'll see what that does to level traffic....

2009-06-09 22:14:00 Author: ZipCity Posts: 208

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ive seen this before. i even know how to do it!! but you still have to have an amazing level

2009-06-09 22:22:00 Author: bambs Posts: 57

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He doesn't republish much though, and these levels were all brand new, published as they were finished aside from the two updated and hard versions. Now if you were to make 10 brand new decent levels that people seem to love playing and replaying within the span of a week after only a month or so of learning LBP's mechanics with little to no prior understanding of how cool pages works by working around the clock in create mode, but don't advertise on the internet at all, republish a bunch to get the first couple started off right, put keys in your levels, then let the rest do the work for you to unintentionally succeed, celebrate your success with a clever page 1 arrangement of logos, AND advertise other creators levels in your own (friends and non-friends alike) all while still working Monday to Friday with a wife and kid (he does too)... then you'd be like CENTURION24. Otherwise you'd just be manipulating the system, rehashing old material, hogging the limelight, and being unoriginal. Seriously though, I'm not trying to get on you, but I know he wasn't doing this all underhanded and manipulative like that. It just kind of happened. It's certainly not a case of underhanded, overhanded, or even thinking he's being dishonest.... OR saying he isn't allowed to do it. Nor even saying he's a bad guy for doing it. The only thing I'm saying is there are limited slots in the top of cool pages... and if everyone here starts looking at this and saying "wow.... here's something we should do!" the cool pages will be more and more useless. You will suddenly need constant 10,000 plays just to get onto page 1, which will cause the H4H people to be even MORE relentless. I honestly have no issue with the necessary steps of republishing in order to get a level plays... nor initially putting hearts on a level to stop your level from maliceously getting a low rating. My problem is ONLY courtesy.... that's all. Many people may not realize that if you have 3 levels in page 1, that is preventing 2 others from being there. I just don't want this to be the next big "thing". A ton of people following this model will break the cool pages even more than now. After a while you'll need to sit at home like a hermit and spam republish just to get on page 5.

2009-06-10 00:46:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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It's happened again - checked tonight and on page 1 there's a kid (I'm presuming and could be wrong so don't age flame me) that has all heart icons on about 6-9 (I forget the exact number) all set up in a cluster all with 0 plays and 0 hearts published all at the same time..... I hope this doesn't become the norm.

2009-06-10 07:01:00 Author: Morgana25 Posts: 5983

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This could set a quite disturbing trend actually, and make our chances of getting levels noticed a lot harder. On my last check this morning, my new level was on page 3 of Cool Levels. Don't get me wrong, I used the "spam" publishing trick to get somewhere near to 300 plays all day Saturday, this then sticks the level on Cool Levels and the plays build from there. Once the level hits 300, I always leave them to their own devices, the problems are generally fixed by this point and the level has stuck, so theres no need for constant republishes. I did'nt have the luxury of this little trick when the first 2 Siberia levels where finished, the plays they got at the time was down to non-stop promoting, the first part winning a contest on an unofficial EU blog also helped. I was able to spam the other levels and as Ccubbage mentioned earlier, this then filtered plays down to my other levels. If the people so desperate to gain hearts and recogniton use this trick, then cool levels will as broken as it was when the game first released, and this will create a lot of un-happy gadders!!

2009-06-10 14:26:00 Author: GruntosUK Posts: 1754

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To be fair... the trick Centurian is using is a different trick that he perfected... I'm just not sure I want to see this trend either. The idea is to get a level up there that is easy to develop but fun... get it on page 1... and then CONSTANTLY create new simple levels and have each successive level push the next one. If he can perpectually do this, he can keep 3 or 4 levels constantly on page 1 by having the earlier ones drive the new ones regardless of quality. I just wanted to mention that I understood this, because - although still friends - I think Ninja and I have been going back and forth over this. I actually do respect the fact that this is not really trickery, but is truly getting plays without spam republishing. However, it has resulted in, right now, 3 fairly lackluster levels clogging up the top of cool pages constantly while others who have spent a lot of time on their levels are forced to sit and watch helplessly, so legitimate or not I'm a bit frustrated. These are great creators who may put less time and energy into future creations because they don't feel they got adequate attention for their levels. In fact, based on the ratings and hearts for 2 of the levels, I think it has certainly detracted from the fun that people WOULD be having if some of those levels from page 2 or 3 could push up (and the level that plays itself was cute... but certainly mediocre graphics at best). The levels that can't get to the top have much better ratings and hearts and would make the LBP experience better. But, at this point it's legitimate. He has certainly found an interesting technique, and for that I can certainly applaud him. But on the other hand, it reopens a way to keep ramp-quality levels at the top of cool pages once again if people see it and exploit it.

2009-06-10 14:41:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Yeah, that sucks. I'm always trying to be supportive of people, and congratulate them, but if people are starting to abuse this, then I shouldn't have bothered to point it out. If I'd had the pic uploaded online, I would have just posted it and said "look how cool this is" A Level that Plays Itself Part 2 is at 5 stars still... quite a feat, that only a few non-trophy (and non ripped-off from AAAlone) levels have accomplished. I saw jackofcourse saying that this was the best victory, because getting on highest rated ensures a permanent stream of plays from people who check highest rated (and are generally not prepubescent or easily irritated).

2009-06-10 18:10:00 Author: Unknown User

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Yeah, that sucks. I'm always trying to be supportive of people, and congratulate them, but if people are starting to abuse this, then I shouldn't have bothered to point it out. If I'd had the pic uploaded online, I would have just posted it and said "look how cool this is" A Level that Plays Itself Part 2 is at 5 stars still... quite a feat, that only a few non-trophy (and non ripped-off from AAAlone) levels have accomplished. I saw jackofcourse saying that this was the best victory, because getting on highest rated ensures a permanent stream of plays from people who check highest rated (and are generally not prepubescent or easily irritated). Of course, if this is in the top of highest rated it will slowly slip down. The non-prepubescent players will look at it and say.... "Wow.... this is NOT 5-star quality!" and will give it lower ratings and it will slowly slip down. I'm certainly not holding this against him, and did in fact gave this specific level a 4 star rating simply because I felt it was highly entertaining to watch (I'm certainly not malicious). I'm not quite so kind to his other 2 levels up there right now....

2009-06-10 18:28:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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I've noticed this too. Although I can't really complain since I've had a level on the first page for 3 months straight in the old system! I played his stuff the other day, and I gotta say, it's nothing special. Very mediocre. His level which plays itself was a fresh new concept, but I feel it could've been improved aesthetically. It's not impressive at all to see blobs of dark matter and ugly floating chunks of fire. I've noticed that whenever I make a music level, if I make something that is technically challenging and more rewarding for me, it doesn't receive as many hearts or plays. But if someone makes a song called "Apologize" or anything by Linkin Park, it instantly becomes swarmed with hearts regardless of quality.

2009-06-10 18:59:00 Author: TheJollyRajah Posts: 466

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I've noticed that whenever I make a music level, if I make something that is technically challenging and more rewarding for me, it doesn't receive as many hearts or plays. But if someone makes a song called "Apologize" or anything by Linkin Park, it instantly becomes swarmed with hearts regardless of quality. Maybe it is alot more like the music industry than I thought heh

2009-06-10 19:03:00 Author: Unknown User

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However, it has resulted in, right now, 3 fairly lackluster levels clogging up the top of cool pages constantly while others who have spent a lot of time on their levels are forced to sit and watch helplessly, so legitimate or not I'm a bit frustrated. These are great creators who may put less time and energy into future creations because they don't feel they got adequate attention for their levels. Those "fairly lackluster" levels were more fun than most of the levels on the first few cool pages in my opinion. Maybe it doesn't seem fair to some people that he can crank out these gameplay focused levels in hours while the artistic looking levels take days to build, but I had been feeling for a while that the pendulum had swung too far to the aesthetics end of things.

2009-06-11 15:55:00 Author: Unknown User

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Maybe it is alot more like the music industry than I thought heh It obviously is. The broader, simpler and more generic is your stuff it means it appeal to a wider audience. General taste is REALLY bad you know. .

2009-06-11 16:10:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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Those "fairly lackluster" levels were more fun than most of the levels on the first few cool pages in my opinion. Maybe it doesn't seem fair to some people that he can crank out these gameplay focused levels in hours while the artistic looking levels take days to build, but I had been feeling for a while that the pendulum had swung too far to the aesthetics end of things. Really? So... why are the ratings and hearts on many of the levels below so much better? That is the barometer that the players are using to judge it. The truth is, we're not talking about these levels being more fun OR having a greater appeal.... we're ONLY talking about someone being in a position to have greater visibity, and using it to take a much bigger piece of the pie than they need. At the expense of others. Right now, his levels are not APPEALING to a wider audience... they are simply being EXPOSED to a wider audience. There's a huge difference. If someone opens a level, says "gee.. this isn't very good.." and exits, they've already helped the level stay at the top. In the record industry, the popularity is not measured by how many people heard a song - it's measured by how many people actually bought the music. That is not the case here. If these levels were being judged simply by popularity (ratings, tags, and hearts) and not simply by sheer volume of plays, several of his levels would not be there. But the ones that would be there would be ones (if you read my comments above) that I actually said were pretty good. I honestly don't see how this is different from using Trophy or H4H levels to get to the top.... to me it's just a different trick (and, granted, a clever one).

2009-06-11 16:53:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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It is a very clever trick, and less offensive to me personally, than the creator who republishes every 5 minutes to achieve these same desired results. Have we reached that 'slippy' ethical slope yet?

2009-06-11 17:32:00 Author: Gravel Posts: 1308

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It's more frustrating to me personally for a few reasons: the system is designed in a way so that if you don't constrantly republish to get your level started, people simply won't know its there. That's the way it is. I don't like it, but I can't fault someone from using the ONLY means at their disposal to get some plays. It's the only tool MediaMolecule has given us. (by the way, I don't do it every 5 minutes personally. I just continuously make legitimate tweaks as I think of them) But now we're saying "that isn't enough.... now, not only do I need to republish every 5 minutes, but I need to ALSO push multiple levels up at the same time and TOTALLY clog up the system in order to get plays.....". You don't think other players seeing a constant 5 levels sitting on page 1 by a single not-so-talented author will be a problem? This has the potential to have 10,000 creators going "hey, I can do that too!" This will result in people publishing 5 LEVELS EVERY 5 MINUTES. Yes, much more slippery slope. I know that most people on this site realize I'm not an idiot, and I very rarely do things for self-interests. THIS is going to be a problem... and will result in other creators manifesting even more bad behavior. Oh, by the way - look at this creators comments in his earlier levels - he ALSO had to republish constantly to get into this position. So, it's not a matter of either/or - it's a matter continuously finding new ways to break the system. I've been watching this lately, and I can almost feel the little wheels turning in about 10,000 creators heads who are watching it.... I honestly wish this thread would be locked. I don't have anything against this creator, I don't want to be at odds with Ninja (being Centurians friend), and I really am generally a happy-camper on this site because we don't normally argue things that result in bad behavior, only try to come up with objective facts on how to use the system in the way it was intended to get individual levels a bit of attention. And to me this is just another exploitation of the weeknesses of the design of cool pages.

2009-06-11 17:44:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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I agree with you Cubbage. It was pretty impressive to see it up on the cool pages. Maybe his levels weren't that great, but you have to hand it to the guy for pulling it off. Now we can all just forget about it and remember it as one of the great moments of LittleBigPlanet.... Wrong. It is now the desire of every one of those unoriginal creators who have the time and dedication to republish 6 of their awful race levels over and over to replicate what this guy did. Every great idea published in LBP is stolen by those who don't have the imagination to muster originality themselves. This is just another example of this. We'll be seeing a lot of these little collections in the coming months. You can say that the system is flawed, but it's really not. These terrible levels are what the community wants. If you look at his ratings, they're all 5 stars. The majority of the people that play these levels are 12 year olds who love these fast-paced, aesthetically appealing levels. It's not the system that's flawed, Mm did a great job, it's the audience.

2009-06-11 18:33:00 Author: Killian Posts: 2575

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No... a couple of 5 stars (the levels that play themselves). Many of them are 3 star with VERY bad heart ratios and rating tags - I carefully went through them last night and checked. And statistically, it's NOT what they want - his lower rated ones have some of the worst heart/play ratios I've seen - which tells me they are up there by default, not by merit of people liking them. As a software engineer of systems used throughout the world, I disagree with it not being the system. Database design of this type of system requires considering bad behavior as part of the design. There are many different designs they could have taken, but they chose to build one which rewards constantly spam publishing. Follow me on this: If you are a really good level creator, but your experience in game development requires that you work during the week - you have less time to keep your level visible after you've created it. Therefore, someone with less skill will have more time to get more plays. The proof in the pudding: hearts per play and ratings. If a level is on page 1 and has 60,000 plays and 1000 hearts, that means 1.6% of the plays earned a heart (which I consider to be 'BUYING' the product. If another level has 4000 plays and 800 hearts, that means 20% of the players BOUGHT the product. In a marketing survey, which would they consider the best product to take to market? Media Molecule has done one of the best jobs in a game I've ever seen..... just not in their online design. There are FAR better designs. For instance, if you only count individual players instead of the same player 50 times... you would get a much better statistic and be able to much more fairly move levels up. I actually watched a guy get all the way up to page 3 a few weeks ago by playing his own level thousands of times with a single PSN account.

2009-06-11 18:47:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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To Killian's point ....which is why I still think categories or genre tags would be awesome and somewhat eliminate or at least lessen the impact. So instead of 1 default cool levels page, have several category pages where each had it's battle to page 1 for those 7 days. Someone still might spam several of their levels at once, but they might be in separate categories. ..Even if they were the same category, they would at least be limited to domination in only one world so to speak.

2009-06-11 18:49:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383

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To Killian's point ....which is why I still think categories or genre tags would be awesome and somewhat eliminate or at least lessen the impact. So instead of 1 default cool levels page, have several category pages where each had it's battle to page 1 for those 7 days. Someone still might spam several of their levels at once, but they might be in separate categories. ..Even if they were the same category, they would at least be limited to domination in only one world so to speak. Exactly. I mentioned that in a post here back in december. By the way, the new BoomBlox actually solved virtually all these problems - I just don't want to design for it.

2009-06-11 18:50:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Exactly. I mentioned that in a post here back in december. Actually, I am somewhat amazed it wasn't part of the game to begin with. Forgive me if this is another repeat, but as awesome and dynamic of a game LBP is, the cool levels and search interface seems a bit of an afterthought from a design standpoint. Oh well.. gotta do some real work now..

2009-06-11 19:02:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383

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The 7 day system is fine, the only problem is how the 1st page levels are calculated. If it was, like you said Cubbage, a Player (not play):Heart ratio above a certain number of plays and a certain rating then it would be fantastic. It would be such a small change and make so much of a difference.

2009-06-11 19:09:00 Author: Killian Posts: 2575

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Think about this also: No more republishing for plays at all! A system that started automatically circulating levels in and out of the cool pages automatically over the 7 day period so that all new levels would automatically get attention... then the worthy ones that people wanted to play WOULD actually move to the top instead of getting there completely through persistance. (^^^^ VERY easy to develop.... actually, easier than what they have right now AND the servers would be running a lot better because it would create far less traffic) Combine that with a genre and difficulty to prevent players from getting into inappropriate levels for them, and you have a winner (my son shouldn't be playing Crazy Train.... he will rate it 1 star). Right now, saying the raff is what people want is simply not true.... that's just what they SEE shoved in front of them all the time through persistant publishing. I can understand this in marketing, but this is a game and it really shouldn't be this hard or this much work to see results.

2009-06-11 19:36:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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for me the problem is even simpler. I never bought into "Cool Pages" to begin with. There is no fun in it... no sense of adventure... and ultimately no reward... of course thats easy for me to say... it has always been the last way I will try to find levels... I don't get it... but I'll tell you this, if I loved video games, was a designer, and loved LBP as well... I could never remain as cool and collected as you CCubbage. Kudos to you and all your thoughtful solutions.

2009-06-11 19:43:00 Author: Gravel Posts: 1308

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lol i just finished playing like 4 of his levels he is pretty good

2009-06-11 20:02:00 Author: Sonic5411 Posts: 712

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I don't care if he's great - consistently hogging that many slots is simply not "nice" and prevents other, in many cases, BETTER levels from getting attention. Don't they teach this concept in school anymore? Sharing... humility... consideration... I'm arguing principles. I have no problem with each of his levels getting 150,000 plays - I just don't think it's considerate to use the system in a way that lowers other peoples enjoyment of the game. I love ALL of Wexfordians levels. I can go play them whenever I want. If he were to use HIS talent and popularity to have 5 levels on page 1 perpetually (which I guarrantee he could do) I would consider it in very bad taste, EVEN if they were awesome levels. Why? Because you simply don't need that much attention, and it would hinder the enjoyment of other people.

2009-06-11 20:13:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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It basically come down to our pseudo perfect solution for the broken cool pages: categories. I feel the race car is simply starting another lap. Oh and Media Molecule should make CCubbage their producer. .

2009-06-11 20:28:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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It basically come down to our pseudo perfect solution for the broken cool pages: categories. I feel the race car is simply starting another lap. Oh and Media Molecule should make CCubbage their producer. . (not directly related to your comment) You know... it's kind of funny... in some of these arguments I feel like the following conversation: "You know, Billy.... you shouldn't take 5 apples for yourself because Tammy would like one too... and if you take 5 of them yourself she won't have one". Tommy replies: "But the apples are red and shiny. Besides, Tammy can watch me eating all 5. I'm sure she won't mind. I'm taller than she is anyway. Oh, and when she gets home she can have a carrot, so it's not like she's going to go hungry." Third child: "We would rather Billy get all 5 apples.... we like watching him eat the apples more, and besides... he IS taller than Tammy." People SHOULD be able to look around them and show consideration for others... when they don't, rules are made. When rules are made even people who are trying to do the right thing suffer.

2009-06-11 20:42:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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No... a couple of 5 stars (the levels that play themselves). Many of them are 3 star with VERY bad heart ratios and rating tags - I carefully went through them last night and checked. And statistically, it's NOT what they want - his lower rated ones have some of the worst heart/play ratios I've seen - which tells me they are up there by default, not by merit of people liking them. Just to let people know statistically from what is presented on the screen you can not ever determine what the Heart to play ratio is. It does not count unique plays per PSN id, but all plays. I played the run for it levels maybe twenty to thirty times each. I can only only give out one heart. 1 heart / 30 plays is not a ratio. Only mm has access to what the the heart to play ratio is ... And for all we know they may use that ratio in the cool levels system. The proof in the pudding: hearts per play and ratings. If a level is on page 1 and has 60,000 plays and 1000 hearts, that means 1.6% of the plays earned a heart (which I consider to be 'BUYING' the product. If another level has 4000 plays and 800 hearts, that means 20% of the players BOUGHT the product. This sort of logic makes no sense becuase of your unvalid assumption that everyone plays a level once. If the level gets multiple plays per visiter the so called percentage you calculated will be pushed down the more the player replays the level. At the sametime if a level gets players to want to replay it over and over again that means it is a successfull level yet your measure shows it to be poor.

2009-06-11 21:20:00 Author: deboerdave Posts: 384

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Just to let people know statistically from what is presented on the screen you can not ever determine what the Heart to play ratio is. It does not count unique plays per PSN id, but all plays. I played the run for it levels maybe twenty to thirty times each. I can only only give out one heart. 1 heart / 30 plays is not a ratio. Only mm has access to what the the heart to play ratio is ... And for all we know they may use that ratio in the cool levels system. It's not a legitimate indicator of quality, but it's also not unreasonable to assume that it is when the majority of his levels are three stars.

2009-06-11 21:33:00 Author: TheJollyRajah Posts: 466

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He did it again yesterday, and spelled out I Heart LBP one more time. I talked to him yesterday, and he summed it up that he just tries to please everybody, no different than us. His first level, "I Got Skills" - he said when he published that the first time, it kept getting rubbish and 1 star tags... after that he thought real long and hard about what people would actually like playing. Now people like his levels, and it got them to respect him enough to not trash his original level that he maxed the thermometer with and put the most time into. When I think about it... it's the same philosophy I had when I built Facial Reconstruction, since no one liked the two False Idols levels. I wanted to make something simple, fun, and entertaining that the average person might really enjoy - I didn't find that perfect balance. Also, after reading this thread, you guys really had him down on himself, contemplating deleting his levels, since he never knew he was hogging spots from you guys or that only a few levels could be on there at one time. Luckily he came to his senses and didn't shoot himself in his own foot. What a bad first experience with the LBP community, though. GrantosUK was on page 2 when I looked yesterday... I was on 6, Louis' new level was on 5. Seems about the usual for the 7 day cycle, with this whole thing not really affecting anything, good or bad. My Boss logic tutorial got to page 1 while CENTURION was dominating the most, and it's not even a real level. I'm surprised I'm even on there at all. I understand how it can affect things, but it doesn't seem to be, the way the Ozzy's and bomb-obsessed of the world do.

2009-06-11 21:40:00 Author: Unknown User

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The star rating is pretty good most of the time. But i have never played a five star level that i couldnt pass on the first try. Most levels that require some skill to pass get usually max out at about 3 stars although i have seen a 4 star levels that had some challenge in them.

2009-06-11 21:41:00 Author: deboerdave Posts: 384

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NinjaMicwz, you WON'T see any effect right now. The problem isn't about Centurion affecting the system now but about his habit there become a trend for people, spammers. It's easy to see that a bunch of spammer could actually ruin the cool pages. Right now, of course Centurion isn't affecting anything... .

2009-06-11 22:09:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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Exactly. It's the "practice". And deboerdave.... I can appreciate the heart/play ratio. If you look back 6 months ago on this website I was explaining this concept to people (I was the first to explain this on a thread "what is a good heart/play ratio". The issue I have is when a level has INCREDIBLY few hearts, a 3 star ratio, and the primary tags are negative.... not that THIS even signifies a bad level, but it is certainly a sign that the level is not "what PEOPLE want" - especially if it's not the TYPE of level that would encourage someone to play many times. And the primary issue is still whether this is a good practice OR will it start encouraging more bad behavior? And the idea that "I'm promoting others levels so its OK" or "I'm trying to make everyone happy by making sure I take up as many slots as possible" are rationalizations. It's the LBP publishing equivalent of trying to push in front of other people in a ticket line and saying "but it's ok, because while I'm here I'm getting some tickets for other people".

2009-06-11 22:33:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Ooh. "Special Editions". I'd not thought of that. ; )

2009-06-11 22:38:00 Author: julesyjules Posts: 1156

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Oh yeah! LBP would be a wonderful place if everyone started simultaneously publishing 5 versions of each level every 5 minutes. I can't see how this can possibly cause an issue.... Although.... if we want to solve this entire issue quickly, everyone on this site can decide at the same time to start pushing every level we have every 5 minutes for about a week and see what happens....

2009-06-11 22:41:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Oh yeah! LBP would be a wonderful place if everyone started simultaneously publishing 5 versions of each level every 5 minutes. I can't see how this can possibly cause an issue.... Although.... if we want to solve this entire issue quickly, everyone on this site can decide at the same time to start pushing every level we have every 5 minutes for about a week and see what happens.... That would be high on my list of 'most fun things I've ever done.'

2009-06-11 23:04:00 Author: Loius Posts: 342

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That would be high on my list of 'most fun things I've ever done.' In the end, I'm only here to make EVERYONES time in LittleBigPlanet a bit more enjoyable.... even if that means causing worldwide server chaos!!!!

2009-06-12 00:09:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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I just had a go at his levels that play themselves. Rather good. Irrelevent to the discussion. I wouldn`t for one second suggest he`s a bad guy, but certainly this tactic that he`s discovered could lead to it being so much harder to get onto the cool pages once the hoi paloi get wind of it. I have no idea how many times I republished Eddy Mitter to get it plays, and I don`t want to know either. It must`ve been irritating as hell for the folks on my friends lists though. I sat there and did it for hours. If this cluster publishing does take hold, god knows what you`ll need to do. I see levels like that Ice Maiden trilogy on 100 or so plays and can`t help but feel there are some serious issues with the system

2009-06-12 01:06:00 Author: Matt 82 Posts: 1096

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Oh yeah! LBP would be a wonderful place if everyone started simultaneously publishing 5 versions of each level every 5 minutes. I can't see how this can possibly cause an issue.... Although.... if we want to solve this entire issue quickly, everyone on this site can decide at the same time to start pushing every level we have every 5 minutes for about a week and see what happens.... That would be pretty cool actually It would probably result in pushing MM to refine the cool level system further. As they probably wont go out of there way to tweak it if there are no major problems surfacing.

2009-06-12 12:43:00 Author: deboerdave Posts: 384

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That's it. Let's team up like 10-15 LBPers outta here and we make empty levels containing only a message with the real solutions for "solving" the cool pages. We put a huge LittleBigPLanet Central in each and we publish 10 of those levels each. We would simply blow the system up. We might even make the news just like when there's a major take over in a MMO. (ok i'm just fantasizing here, i'm not proposing this)

2009-06-12 16:01:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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That's it. Let's team up like 10-15 LBPers outta here and we make empty levels containing only a message with the real solutions for "solving" the cool pages. We put a huge LittleBigPLanet Central in each and we publish 10 of those levels each. We would simply blow the system up. We might even make the news just like when there's a major take over in a MMO. (ok i'm just fantasizing here, i'm not proposing this) My "guess" is that ConfusedCartman might not like the web site graphic in there . But.... it would be funny!

2009-06-12 16:06:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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That's it. Let's team up like 10-15 LBPers outta here and we make empty levels containing only a message with the real solutions for "solving" the cool pages. We put a huge LittleBigPLanet Central in each and we publish 10 of those levels each. We would simply blow the system up. We might even make the news just like when there's a major take over in a MMO. (ok i'm just fantasizing here, i'm not proposing this) LOL!! That's pretty funny.

2009-06-12 16:07:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383

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I talked to him yesterday, and he summed it up that he just tries to please everybody, no different than us. His first level, "I Got Skills" - he said when he published that the first time, it kept getting rubbish and 1 star tags... after that he thought real long and hard about what people would actually like playing. Now people like his levels, and it got them to respect him enough to not trash his original level that he maxed the thermometer with and put the most time into. When I think about it... it's the same philosophy I had when I built Facial Reconstruction, since no one liked the two False Idols levels. I wanted to make something simple, fun, and entertaining that the average person might really enjoy - I didn't find that perfect balance. Also, after reading this thread, you guys really had him down on himself, contemplating deleting his levels, since he never knew he was hogging spots from you guys or that only a few levels could be on there at one time. Luckily he came to his senses and didn't shoot himself in his own foot. What a bad first experience with the LBP community, though.I wouldn't be surprised he was unhappy. Many of the people were comparing him to spammers, people who publish every 5 minutes for hours on end, and H4Hers. There are plenty of "bad" levels in the first few cool pages (although I disagree about his levels actually taking slots away from more worthy levels). There are plenty of "bad" actors that keep appearing blockbuster movies. There are plenty of "bad" musical acts. Okay, so your tastes might be more refined than the average LBPer. Any system can be gamed, and, yes, life isn't fair.

2009-06-12 17:17:00 Author: Unknown User

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I wouldn't be surprised he was unhappy. Many of the people were comparing him to spammers, people who publish every 5 minutes for hours on end, and H4Hers. There are plenty of "bad" levels in the first few cool pages (although I disagree about his levels actually taking slots away from more worthy levels). There are plenty of "bad" actors that keep appearing blockbuster movies. There are plenty of "bad" musical acts. Okay, so your tastes might be more refined than the average LBPer. Any system can be gamed, and, yes, life isn't fair. Still, your type of argument isn't having any more weight than his. And I raise you: -Life is about evolution and making things better. So why not trying to make it better and more fair? .

2009-06-12 18:16:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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Still, your type of argument isn't having any more weight than his. And I raise you: -Life is about evolution and making things better. So why not trying to make it better and more fair? . Fairness is in the eye of the beholder. It just so happens that the system as-is benefits centurion because his levels have a good flow and are gameplay based and because he has a number of different levels published almost simultaneously. People who like levels based on gameplay are probably more likely to check out levels by the same author. I suppose if we take out his levels, we would have more slots available for a level named after the game or movie of the week and all would be right again in the world of lbp.

2009-06-12 18:57:00 Author: Unknown User

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Is it me - or has he been changing the badges on his levels again? Black and white and red for the I heart LBP versions, now they are red with green frogs and white numbers? Wouldn't that hurt the recognition from players looking for his levels again? Only reason I noticed is that I've been curious where they are ending up on cool pages and looking for them.

2009-06-12 19:03:00 Author: Morgana25 Posts: 5983

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Is it me - or has he been changing the badges on his levels again? Black and white and red for the I heart LBP versions, now they are red with green frogs and white numbers? Wouldn't that hurt the recognition from players looking for his levels again? Only reason I noticed is that I've been curious where they are ending up on cool pages and looking for them. those where the original icons, he just changed them to I heart lbp becuase he had 5 levels on page 1 and was happy and wanted to have fun with it. After some levels expired there time it no longer made since to have those icons

2009-06-12 19:30:00 Author: deboerdave Posts: 384

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I'm sorry he felt bad seeing this feedback, I really am. And as mentioned above, I don't think I'm saying he's a bad guy NOR that his levels aren't worth page 1 (I gave him high marks on 2 of his levels, so I'm obviously not maliceous). The biggest issue is that a) there really ARE only a certain number of slots, and b) it's still, if you realize there are only a certain number of slots, a nice thing to not use a technique which keeps 5 of yours consistantly at the top. You know, if this thread hadn't been started it wouldn't be a big deal. My first thought was "oh no... we're publicising a new spamming technique" - which is absolutely valid. My suggestion to him is, knowing that his levels prevent other deserving levels from being seen (not chosen by everyone.... SEEN in the first place) to keep using the technique... but use it in moderation. Maybe slow down a TAD, use the extra time to put a bit more polish on the levels, and release subsequent levels so that, maybe, there's 2 overlapping at any point. And then don't make a spectacle out of it so that you try to spell "I heart LBP" across the globe and draw attention to yourself to that extent. I'm sorry, but based on my last 5 months of observing the cool pages I just don't think it's a matter of LittleBigPlanet choosing certain levels to be more popular than others necessarily - sometimes it's just a matter of visibility and the time individuals have to into invest in publishing. And if they have to also fight a whole slew of levels from a single author, it will have a negative impact.

2009-06-12 19:30:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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in the end, this game's sharing system would just be 100x better if there were no trophies

2009-06-12 19:35:00 Author: ZipCity Posts: 208

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in the end, this game's sharing system would just be 100x better if there were no trophies This too of course. Media Molecule just pulled some of the worse trophy design i've seen in a PS3 game so far. Also, Sony should warn in the dev guidelines to NOT make trophies about self recognition in certain types of games. Microsoft is having such guideline for their achievements system and I think it limits bad internet behavior.

2009-06-12 20:00:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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this my first time on any forum. may i answer any questions

2009-06-13 01:55:00 Author: CENTURION24 Posts: 266

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Welcome CENTURION24 ! Appreciate you popping in! You should post a hello in the Introduce Yourselves section so everyone gets a chance to say hi. We are very friendly here. For one, let me congratulate you on all the attention you have gotten and having quite a bit of success on the cool levels this week. I played Level That Plays Itself 3 and was really impressed. I think it would be cool for you to do one that had a theme through it sorta like Safari Coaster for example. I think most of the folks here on the thread are mostly concerned about the way the system currently works. It is unfortunate, but your success brought about attention at a way the cool levels could possibly be exploited. Folks here are basically discussing and brainstorming a bit to possibly a more fair way of getting more great levels some much deserved attention and plays. So please take up a chair and get to know the folks here and remember to post a welcome thread. Take care!

2009-06-13 02:41:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383

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this my first time on any forum. may i answer any questions Welcome buddy. You arrive at the right moment, at the height of your fame. .

2009-06-13 02:55:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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Welcome, Centurian24. As mentioned, it's not necessarily you specifically that is a "problem". It's more that the system has many ways to be exploited, and unfortunately you found one, and I didn't want this thread to cause a "run" on cool pages, causing it to get totally stuffed and prevent people from getting plays without a lot of work. Here's the issue: Each time a level gets to the top of cool pages, other levels have to wait until that level falls off the top in order to make room. We all know that having a decent level on cool page 1 will cause people to have an interest in other works by the creator... so you can keep pushing levels up the chain by always having a new level published... and therefore have your other level carry it up too. I've never had any problem with this. However, when you use this to perpetually keep MANY levels at the top, this prevents authors who simply can't build quality levels at that rate to not be able to get to page 1... since their level will rise more slowly due to the fact that they don't have another published work to carry it up quickly. So, in effect, when you have this many levels pushing up and staying on page 1, you prevent other levels which are just as good or better from being able to do this. I'm only saying that doing it to this extent is causing less attention to others levels, and therefore is inconsiderate - and will also cause many who are basically "in it for the attention" to try to emulate the practice. I honestly don't have a question for you, because I understand how cool pages works very well and have been watching it carefully for about 5 months now. I had thought of this exploit when I had my "Tiger Woods" level up there (easy to make more courses and keep the ball rolling), however I just didn't think people needed the same experience over and over, and wanted to see others of my friends get some attention. However, if you have a specific philosophy I'm missing here I'd love to know. I actually saw other creator levels tonight trying to copy the same thing with multiple bomb levels, and I get the feeling that this is going to start a trend that is going to hurt cool pages even more.

2009-06-13 03:33:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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I had always wanted to publish a couple levels at a time... I thought it would be cool... I hadn't really thought of the ramifications to be honest... The model that would be created, and proven successful for others to try and emulate... (Although in all honesty), I think it is the rare creator who could accomplish such a stunt and beyond my own personal grasp. Why I still think it was a cool experiment, ethically speaking-- we've been having a discussion on whether or not your tactics are ultimately bad for LittleBigPlanet? I was wondering if you had any thoughts on the model you set forth and its implications if any on cool pages and lbp itself?

2009-06-13 05:11:00 Author: Gravel Posts: 1308

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i guess i did get carried away with the 15hr a day level creating. I never knew it would have such a butterfly affect. My first level took me a couple of months to finish. it got 1 star & rubbish lol. it was very challenging. you can just imagine the rush i felt after 2 & 3 of the level that plays itself made it page 1 in under 8hrs. both making page 1 & 2 highest rated... for now... also going from 1 additional author heart a day to 200-400 a day.this kind of attention plus the cool fealing you get when you read positive comments from your levels is VERY ADDICTING.

2009-06-13 07:21:00 Author: CENTURION24 Posts: 266

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i guess i did get carried away with the 15hr a day level creating. I never knew it would have such a butterfly affect. My first level took me a couple of months to finish. it got 1 star & rubbish lol. it was very challenging. you can just imagine the rush i felt after 2 & 3 of the level that plays itself made it page 1 in under 8hrs. both making page 1 & 2 highest rated... for now... also going from 1 additional author heart a day to 200-400 a day.this kind of attention plus the cool fealing you get when you read positive comments from your levels is VERY ADDICTING. Hey, by the way I played and liked your hard level "get skillz" (or whatever it was called). It's rare I am playing hard levels where I don't feel it's cheap. .

2009-06-13 08:33:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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ty but i kind of like those cheap hard levels where the author thinks hes the only one who can pass it.

2009-06-13 08:42:00 Author: CENTURION24 Posts: 266

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A little off topic but I noticed yesterday some girl posting her level literally every 2 minutes!!!! I've started republishing mine twice daily and am not even at 50 plays yet with my new level. She had a few thousand plays. If this is what we have to do then my LBP days are numbered. I used the republishing trick. I mannaged to get allmost thousand plays ( 811 plays latest time i checked) Even as some stupid noob gave it only 3 stars after i had 70 plays. 1 Have an interesting icon/name/description 2 Publish the level. 3 Quickly Go onto the level and upload a screenshot. 4 Make sure you have created atleast one other PSN account. So you can right away go and give your'e level good tags/5 stars and a heart, I was using about 3 extra psn acounts when my level was published =) 5 Now you will have to republish it. Untill it gets into 1-8 cool pages. Now every time it goes of simply republish it again and again and again. You will have to republish it alot if you want to get alot of plays. You will have to be very persistant with the republishing trick. But sooner or later you will get alot of plays. I got 811 plays. I checked BTR 3 and the visuasl were breath taking ( Havent finished yet.) It will take alot of effort. but sooner or later it will get a permanent position at the 5th or 6th cool page so it can rise to the higher cool pages by itself ( Mine got a permanent position at 6th cool page and has pendeld between 5th and 6th some times =D.

2009-06-13 09:34:00 Author: Unknown User

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i guess i did get carried away with the 15hr a day level creating. I never knew it would have such a butterfly affect. My first level took me a couple of months to finish. it got 1 star & rubbish lol. it was very challenging. you can just imagine the rush i felt after 2 & 3 of the level that plays itself made it page 1 in under 8hrs. both making page 1 & 2 highest rated... for now... also going from 1 additional author heart a day to 200-400 a day.this kind of attention plus the cool fealing you get when you read positive comments from your levels is VERY ADDICTING. LOL!! Yes.. it is a rush getting so many hearts, plays and great comments. Especially after you had such a dismal start on your first level. Sorry that it went over so badly! I had a similar rush with my Baja level though not a 3-peat! Yikes.. ! My 2nd level (Adventure in Tiny Town) that I feel was much better, squeaked up to page 2 on the 7th day while terrible looking and horrible playing Mario Kart levels were screaming past me to the top with tons of hearts and plays. Awful looking karts with big hunks of dark matter that snagged cars in mid air forcing restarts. ..but it seemed that was what 8 year olds like. Basically I did Baja as an experiment at first to see if a well done race with nice scenery and actually adding a bit of car control might do. Yikes... still a bit embarrassed on how well it did in those 7 days and still haunting the Top Levels page 1. Yeah.. I'm you're neighbor to the right in the Pacific. ..well at least for now. I imagine that will start to sift down at some point. ..sorry to stray off topic!!! I guess we are mostly concerned if others capitalize on seeing your success, try similar tactics and start some sort of trend. Gravel asked the question much more eloquently than I!!! However to CCubbage's early post, I don't know there is a set number of slots per page on the cool levels. However, I haven't studied it as closely as he has!! I was under the impression it was simply how many stars as a factor times the heart play ratio and once a level passes a threshold. Though it might be self limiting just due to how many levels could possibly get that much exposure.

2009-06-13 16:15:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383

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LOL!! Yes.. it is a rush getting so many hearts, plays and great comments. Especially after you had such a dismal start on your first level. Sorry that it went over so badly! I had a similar rush with my Baja level though not a 3-peat! Yikes.. ! My 2nd level (Adventure in Tiny Town) that I feel was much better, squeaked up to page 2 on the 7th day while terrible looking and horrible playing Mario Kart levels were screaming past me to the top with tons of hearts and plays. Awful looking karts with big hunks of dark matter that snagged cars in mid air forcing restarts. ..but it seemed that was what 8 year olds like. Basically I did Baja as an experiment at first to see if a well done race with nice scenery and actually adding a bit of car control might do. Yikes... still a bit embarrassed on how well it did in those 7 days and still haunting the Top Levels page 1. Yeah.. I'm you're neighbor to the right in the Pacific. ..well at least for now. I imagine that will start to sift down at some point. ..sorry to stray off topic!!! I guess we are mostly concerned if others capitalize on seeing your success, try similar tactics and start some sort of trend. Gravel asked the question much more eloquently than I!!! However to CCubbage's early post, I don't know there is a set number of slots per page on the cool levels. However, I haven't studied it as closely as he has!! I was under the impression it was simply how many stars as a factor times the heart play ratio and once a level passes a threshold. Though it might be self limiting just due to how many levels could possibly get that much exposure. Exactly. Here's how it works: There are a certain number of slots available to "Stick" to each individual cool page. Levels are assigned to each page based on their individual plays/hearts/ratings in proportion to other levels in cool pages. So, levels can move UP cool pages, AND they can move DOWN. I'll give you an example: Let's say I have a level that I've been working hard on getting plays all week. I finally make it to page 2. Suddenly, the guy who did "Little Big High School" decides, since he has High School 3 on page 1 and is automatically getting tons of plays, to go ahead and delete and republish 1 and 2 so that the risidual plays he naturally gets on these levels causes them to go up cool pages AGAIN - and at a much faster rate than I am capable of doing with my own level. Now, these quickly rise up above your not-as-visible level and kick it down to page 3... so that your level doesn't have a fighting chance. If you see what this author is doing, you are naturally going to fight back - and therefore start reposting many of your own levels. I personally chose (in 2 real cases) to simply not fight, but quit trying - even though I knew HOW to fight back. This goes against the entire philosophy of the design of cool pages, and it frustrates creators who don't WANT to have to republish tons of levels. Quickly coming out with additional "versions" of your levels, or even SHODDY levels quickly is the same philosophy, and generates quick plays which other creators are not able to generate without flooding cool pages with a bunch of their own levels. What RangerZero did with Crazy Train wasn't quite the same.... he waited until his first level was getting near to dropping off, and then used it's popularity to push a normal version. But, in the end, he made sure he only had a single level up there at once... and then let it run it's course. Once again - I'm HOPING this knowledge will educate and hopefully encourage legitimate authors to think about the consequences, not for it to cause a run on cool pages.

2009-06-13 19:37:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Exactly. Here's how it works: There are a certain number of slots available to "Stick" to each individual cool page. Levels are assigned to each page based on their individual plays/hearts/ratings in proportion to other levels in cool pages. So, levels can move UP cool pages, AND they can move DOWN. I'll give you an example: Let's say I have a level that I've been working hard on getting plays all week. I finally make it to page 2. Suddenly, the guy who did "Little Big High School" decides, since he has High School 3 on page 1 and is automatically getting tons of plays, to go ahead and delete and republish 1 and 2 so that the risidual plays he naturally gets on these levels causes them to go up cool pages AGAIN - and at a much faster rate than I am capable of doing with my own level. Now, these quickly rise up above your not-as-visible level and kick it down to page 3... so that your level doesn't have a fighting chance. If you see what this author is doing, you are naturally going to fight back - and therefore start reposting many of your own levels. I personally chose (in 2 real cases) to simply not fight, but quit trying - even though I knew HOW to fight back. This goes against the entire philosophy of the design of cool pages, and it frustrates creators who don't WANT to have to republish tons of levels. Quickly coming out with additional "versions" of your levels, or even SHODDY levels quickly is the same philosophy, and generates quick plays which other creators are not able to generate without flooding cool pages with a bunch of their own levels. What RangerZero did with Crazy Train wasn't quite the same.... he waited until his first level was getting near to dropping off, and then used it's popularity to push a normal version. But, in the end, he made sure he only had a single level up there at once... and then let it run it's course. Once again - I'm HOPING this knowledge will educate and hopefully encourage legitimate authors to think about the consequences, not for it to cause a run on cool pages. Interesting.. I did not realize that. Appreciate the information!!

2009-06-13 19:59:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383

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I found that despite putting a level key at the end of my level, I got very few plays on the survival challenge I made. I figured that a decent percentage of the people who finished the main level would at least give the new level a shot, but no dice.

2009-06-13 21:37:00 Author: ZipCity Posts: 208

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the comments on my run for it level and the level that plays itself were asking for more. they still ask for more.i worked hours on giving lbp what they asked for. in a 2 week span i had created 2 & 3 of both levels. i wasn't rebublishing everything i had. stealing spots is a ridiculous way of looking at what i did. i simply made a few levels that appealed to the majority of lbp and use them as a spring board for my other levels. levels i felt that would be appreciated by skilled gamers. i wish i could just stick to 'whos your daddy levels' but they would never be seen by players that enjoy a challenge. with this method ive accomplished what i think we all want to do and thats to get plays on our levels.

2009-06-14 02:01:00 Author: CENTURION24 Posts: 266

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the comments on my run for it level and the level that plays itself were asking for more. they still ask for more.i worked hours on giving lbp what they asked for. in a 2 week span i had created 2 & 3 of both levels. i wasn't rebublishing everything i had. stealing spots is a ridiculous way of looking at what i did. i simply made a few levels that appealed to the majority of lbp and use them as a spring board for my other levels. levels i felt that would be appreciated by skilled gamers. i wish i could just stick to 'whos your daddy levels' but they would never be seen by players that enjoy a challenge. with this method ive accomplished what i think we all want to do and thats to get plays on our levels. Still, there's 2 facts for you: -Having multiple levels on the first page at the same time, whatever the reason, IS taking slots for other people and can create a bad trend. You're the direct offender here. It's the "possible futur" that is. -You can push any wierdo or hard level to the top of the cool page without your strategy there. My Crazy Train (Hard) is recognised a hard level and having 18 000 plays that he got on the first page. THERE IS an audience for hard levels. .

2009-06-14 02:41:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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the comments on my run for it level and the level that plays itself were asking for more. they still ask for more.i worked hours on giving lbp what they asked for. in a 2 week span i had created 2 & 3 of both levels. i wasn't rebublishing everything i had. stealing spots is a ridiculous way of looking at what i did. i simply made a few levels that appealed to the majority of lbp and use them as a spring board for my other levels. levels i felt that would be appreciated by skilled gamers. i wish i could just stick to 'whos your daddy levels' but they would never be seen by players that enjoy a challenge. with this method ive accomplished what i think we all want to do and thats to get plays on our levels. Also, what you've accomplished is not a "huge" accomplishment - it's something many of us COULD do, but choose not to since we share, I believe, a unity of wanting other peoples levels to also get attention, not just do things for ourselves. Look at your "H4H" hater level.... rubbish level, very low quality - but yet made it to the top of cool pages by default because of your other levels. Kind of ironic, I think. Just because a level goes to page 1 doesn't mean it represents what players "want" - only that it's more visible. And since they go to page 1 based on individual plays.. not individual players... a VERY small percentage of players can drive a level to the top while a level with better ratings and hearts will be left behind - why do you think the "Bomb" levels are so prevalent? In all honesty, I think you should do what you want. If this is a tactic you want to use, use it. You're certainly allowed. Just keep in mind it's setting a bad trend, and will create a bunch of copy cats, and will make it much more difficult for other creators to have the joy of having levels get played unless they also try to abuse the system. In all honestly, I put it in the same category as using H4H, trophy levels, constantly republishing levels again, and spam publishing.

2009-06-14 03:00:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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with this method ive accomplished what i think we all want to do and thats to get plays on our levels. The irony being this method actually limits the exposure of other levels, not that its his fault, its just the way it works. No doubt some john has whipped up the idea to completely cover the front page with 15 versions of the same level. Sooner the better too, once its done people will get bored. Where's IceMaiden? We need 12 more chapters of Snow Queen and pronto!

2009-06-14 03:27:00 Author: julesyjules Posts: 1156

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Where's IceMaiden? We need 12 more chapters of Snow Queen and pronto! Gasp.. you mean you aren't doing 10 versions of Star Wars follies? Yoda on ice! R2 sings! Chewie reads poetry! ahhh well.. back to my corner.. I know.

2009-06-14 03:37:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383

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Gasp.. you mean you aren't doing 10 versions of Star Wars follies? Yoda on ice! R2 sings! Chewie reads poetry! ahhh well.. back to my corner.. I know. Actually, what I think we need 5 versions of each of the Star Wars levels Star Wars....er... easy, hard, super duper Jedi, race, and "Jedi's hate H4H". Then we'll show how big this community is by PUBLISHING EVERY SINGLE VERSION AT ONCE, PLAYING ALL OF THEM SIMULTANEOUSLY AND TAKING OVER THE ENTIRE COOL PAGES IN 2 HOURS!!!! YEAH! In the meantime I'm going to be creating 34 versions of Tiger Woods just by changing the materials and re-saving. We'll have... the blue version, the red version, and the "ball always falls in the hole no matter what" version. The rest will be variations on this with different types of trees.

2009-06-14 03:42:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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I'll just think up 15 different hairdo's for Leia.

2009-06-14 03:51:00 Author: julesyjules Posts: 1156

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if people want part 2 part3 part4 or part44 then who are "we" to say "we" dont need them. i would guess no one is asking for a part10 of any of those levels mentioned above. but if they did then why not give it to them. i made those sequels not only because i liked making them but also because people wanted them made. read the comments on play itself levels. there begging for more. as for my 30min level H4H it was just an emotional response to all the effin h4h comments on my levels. it wasnt ment for the top pg or any page. i was going to erase it but when i read the comments i saw that it made alot of peope happy. so i left it there. i respect every ones opinion. but if i want to make part 5677654455655667876654556 then thats what im going to do. btw id like to see you make 2 levels back to back goto page 1 in 7hours and hit the highest rated or go from 300 author hearts to 4000 in 2weeks. if you all realy can do that then you will have proved your point. until then see you on the cool pages... or not lol @ all h8ers

2009-06-14 04:21:00 Author: CENTURION24 Posts: 266

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I remember seeing this kind of backlash when the Contra project was around too. Apparently everyone was going to start making levels based on games, none of us were capable of making anything original, it was simple and easy to do/anyone could do it, and we were somehow inadvertently affecting everyone else's livelihoods as LBP creators. If everyone wasn't so desperate to get onto page 1 and get millions of plays from the mass audience, who apparently never know any better and are childish, classless and unintelligent... no one would be bothered by CENTURION's success or it's possible ramifications. Instead of concern and fairness standing on it's own, motivations of envy, resent, and selfishness are polluting this whole exchange. Everytime someone says they're only discrediting the practice of dominating cool pages with quality, fun, easy-to-digest levels because of it's possible long-term consequences, they immediately regress into snide insults towards CENTURION's entire style and completely debasing the worth of his work. Think about it, and stop.

2009-06-14 05:09:00 Author: Unknown User

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I'm sad to see that you both didn't get our point. And it's not us fighting for the cool pages, it's you Centurion. How about making the levels YOU want? I mean it's like all those fake artists like that in the music industry for the money only. They will absolutely do and copy what sells, they will do what they can see people are buying, they will not do what they ultimately wish (i mean, if they had any will to create they wouldn't be doing this). We are not bashing you Centurion and I don't understand what you are defending Ninja. There's also one more thing, with the present system you cannot really tell what people want. People want what is available to them that's all. If there was only country music, you would like country music you know what I mean? That's how it goes. I cannot tell "oh, people want more train levels because I had positive commetns asking for more". Every popular level will have positive comments wanting for more simply because there's so many people playing it and such small percentage of people leaving a comment that you simply can't take it for science. If we go by this logic anyways this means that people want more of everything --- wich doesn't make sense anyways. What really happens is that when someone really liked your level, they posted a positive comment. When someone is having a bad agenda and they care for it, they post their negative comment. But there's so many people playing that you're simply bound to have both of those message on ALL your levels that are making the cool pages. As simple as that. In short, you have no way to tell if your stuff is what people wants. It's only what's available to play so they are going to like something in what's available to play. So Centurion, you deliberately do what you do. You don't have to do it, you're not asked to do it from people. Nobody is a star in little big planet unless you want to personally think so. So while you and Ninja are almost insulting to us saying we care too much about fame/cool pages, caring too much is exactly what YOU do. If you wouldn't crave this much, you wouldn't be doing your multipublishing because you'd actually be concerned about the other creators in the community like we are. And remember one thing --- it's the creation that drives this community. If you care about this game and have fun, you want the fun to continue. Working, thinking and acting in a way that FAVORISE the blooming of the community is second nature if you're not selfish. EDIT: Also Ninja, I wonder why you bring in the Contra series situation. It wasn't the same at all. Brings me questions about you if you really understand the matter we are discussing in this thread. The Contra situation wasn't the same and its bashing was unjustified. .

2009-06-14 05:31:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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Yeah... it's way over my head.

2009-06-14 05:59:00 Author: Unknown User

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Yeah... it's way over my head. I personally think you're an incredibly intelligent guy, and I also have had a reputation as being a very objective, logical guy - at work and here. The fact is, my own motivations are not envy, and I'm not questioning the "style" of the author of the levels. But, I get the feeling you haven't studied the entire process of cool pages enough to really see what's happening here. RangerZero and I have, for about the last 5 months. We've been helping creators methodically to get to page 1 of cool levels and get tens of thousands of plays at will through legitimate means. I understand the exact quality of levels it takes to get there, and I understand what it takes to keep levels there. And before CENTURIAN ever came along, we could see this as an exploit - in fact, I have PSN messages back and forth between us talking about it. That's why I honestly don't think it's envy. Basically what's happened here is a thread was started glorifying something which we already KNEW was an exploit, and nothing personal - but I just don't want to see all the legitimate authors run out and start using it with their library of levels that WOULD do the same thing. Here's some objective facts: 1. Levels don't get to the top of cool pages because of popularity. They get to the top because people go into them. If you design a REALLY hard level that makes people restart at the beginning 10 times and they even go in out of curiosity, you will kick the level up cool pages. 2. The determining factor of POPULARITY (what people REALLY want) is determined by the hearts... not plays, nor ratings. Most people leave the rating on what it was before, so that once you get up there a BIT with a 4 star rating it stays that way 90% of the time. And if someone gives it a heart, that's a vote of "I really liked this". So, if you have 60000 plays and 1000 hearts, out of the 100,000 people who were playing LBP that week only 1% really said they liked it. 3. So, because everything is based on unique plays instead of unique PLAYERS, a minority of people are choosing what ends up at the top, and therefore gets the plays. This is, statistically, a flaw in the system. If you can methodically build a level which people play multiple times regardless of quality (bomb levels) you can push unoriginal raff to the top regardless of whether the vast majority of players want it there. 4. By building one decent level, you can perpetually keep pushing levels to the top whether creators/players want it there or not. People will just keep playing the one they like, and then checking out your other stuff which is also in the week queue and by default push it up also. This is EXACTLY illustrated by CENTURIAN's H4H haters level. You know it, I know it, he knows it - he pushed junk up to the top through the influence of his other levels and the vast majority of people hate it.... but there it is. I've been watching this for months, and helping people get up to the top with really high ratings. I realize, Ninja, that since you design levels that in many ways are better and above the average gamer, that it's been harder for you to gain that popularity with your levels. And in the case of Facial Reconstruction, if you'd like to get it to the top I can get it there. But I consider this an exploit based fully on objective knowledge, and not on feelings. And even though I know it's inevitable that people do it (and others are doing it right now also), I would rather it not be emulated by legitimate, talented authors on a wider scale or once again cool pages will be completely dominated by the same levels/variations on levels over and over -- which was what MM was trying to avoid in the first place by changing the system.

2009-06-14 13:03:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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The way cool pages works is not hard to figure out, Ccub. I already know everything you're telling me. It doesn't require alot of studying to figure out. It's been discussed to death as common knowledge since Ramp was around. Not being frustrated with CENTURION24 doesn't mean I'm failing to see the other side of the argument, or that I'm uneducated about cool pages. Here's some objective facts: 1. Levels don't get to the top of cool pages because of popularity. They get to the top because people go into them. If you design a REALLY hard level that makes people restart at the beginning 10 times and they even go in out of curiosity, you will kick the level up cool pages. That is not true. Any form of repeat play, is a sign of popularity - people even slow down to look at horrible accidents on the high way... it is something people abhorr, yet they can't look away. To try and label habits and behavior as anything objective is an immediately fallible opinion. In between 4 and 5 stars is 4.01 to 4.99~ (ad infinitum). When 5 people are rating a level, at 4, 4, 5, 5, 5 the mean average of this equation cannot be a whole number. It's 4.6... rounding up to 5. The myriad of ratings in this invisible gray area, is dictated by averages. By default, if your level starts at 5 stars, the next rating will start off with 5 stars selected... eventually someone will dislike your level, and even if they do not consciously ever down rate it, their thumb may slip and unintentionally drop you to 4.99~ with a 4 star rating. All it takes is ONE rating less than 5 stars to lower your actual rating from a perfect 5.00 to 4.99~. Luckily, in the last few months, the system has begun rounding up from .50 or above, as per mathematical tradition... so it's much harder to grief and trash 5 star levels down a notch now than it used to be. Maintaining a rating, to ascend cool pages to the top page is not had by chance or by force fed default ratings to an ignorant audience. It requires either quality, universal appeal, lasting replay value, or a gimmick. All it takes is a single person, to be disappointed or frustrated, or to reflexively downrate your level only a mere percentage. For anyone to maintain a 5 star rating ON page 1, the most frequented watering hole for carnivorous griefers and resentful downraters, is miraculous and a testament to the overwhelming appeal of their level, that people will purposefully eject whatever default rating of 4 or less may come up and take the time to intentionally re-rate it as 5 stars and combat to rising of the tide with true accolades and approval. 2. The determining factor of POPULARITY (what people REALLY want) is determined by the hearts... not plays, nor ratings. Most people leave the rating on what it was before, so that once you get up there a BIT with a 4 star rating it stays that way 90% of the time. And if someone gives it a heart, that's a vote of "I really liked this". So, if you have 60000 plays and 1000 hearts, out of the 100,000 people who were playing LBP that week only 1% really said they liked it. Only when you play your own level, are repeat plays not counted. If you play your own level from another account 5,000 times by clicking restart level for several hours, you will recieve 5,000 plays. Popularity is had by repeat plays. A person can only heart a level once, but they can return to it a hundred times over for any number of reasons, be it a broken skateboard, an addictive score challenge, or a true and honest love of replaying the level. I myself have given deoberdave's Jumper: Red Zone level hundreds upon hundreds of plays, and replay it so much, retry it so much to no avail because I genuinely enjoy the level. A daunting and addictive challenge that incites failure and immediate replay is as much a sign of quality as any. If 2 million LBP players heart a level, and it has 100 million plays, the imbalance of weight on the playside does not indicate a lack of popularity. Conversely, if 2 million people heart a level and it has exactly 2 million plays, it doesn't mean it's anymore popular than the latter level... in fact, it would appear that it is less popular, and much less enjoyable for the public as they are likely not returning with their friends to show it off, or replaying it on their own time again and again. Either way, his author hearts shows a substantial amount of people did enjoy his portfolio of levels, and it could easily be construed that these several thousand people have replayed each of his levels 10 or more times (10 plays x 4k players = 40k plays)... but we don't have the server side statistical read outs to either prove or disprove that possibility. 3. So, because everything is based on unique plays instead of unique PLAYERS, a minority of people are choosing what ends up at the top, and therefore gets the plays. This is, statistically, a flaw in the system. If you can methodically build a level which people play multiple times regardless of quality (bomb levels) you can push unoriginal raff to the top regardless of whether the vast majority of players want it there. A unique play that never returns to the level to replay it, says alot about it's quality... lasting appeal and replay value is a quality unto itself that cannot be discredited. If a level is building momentum at all, it had to get the ball rolling in the first place. The Fallout 3 levels were popular, and had an immense repeat play count... this, by definition, shows that it is popular. The mall is not popular with adolescents because they went there once, it's popular with adolescents because they go there ALL the time. It isn't just that the mall is the only place around either, because there's plenty of outdoors activities and activity centers around too, as well as things like books... but kids opt for the mall and TV instead. There is no point in twisting the semantics of what popularity means, trying to define quality and subjective taste as something objective, or spreading half-truths and misinformation on how cool pages works depending on the nature of the discussion. I understand it, and deboerdave said it best when he clearly stated the only objective fact we have - only MM has the statistical evidence needed to interpret these ratings and systems properly. It should also be noted that deboerdave is by profession a statistician and a mathematician who's been playing this game just as long as you and I, and we routinely discuss these same subjects on LBP at great length. 4. By building one decent level, you can perpetually keep pushing levels to the top whether creators/players want it there or not. People will just keep playing the one they like, and then checking out your other stuff which is also in the week queue and by default push it up also. This is EXACTLY illustrated by CENTURIAN's H4H haters level. You know it, I know it, he knows it - he pushed junk up to the top through the influence of his other levels and the vast majority of people hate it.... but there it is. Actually, no. I was there when he published that level, and he didn't have anything on cool pages except for "So You Think You Can Swing" on page 6. There was nothing intentional about it, and it was made as a humorous joke, ala Ramp parodies, or the H4H-fools levels that others make for their own personal amusement. Since ragging on H4H'rs and the ignorant masses of LBP... and the terrible design flaws found in trophy tie ins with create mode, and every low-brow Cool Pages staple that we love to see parodied in levels like 7 Days... is so enjoyable, then you should be happy that an H4H parody level is on the front page by an extremely popular and successful creator. It might be worthwhile to also note that the crappy production quality of the level is a part of the joke... they call it satire. From all the comments I read on the level itself, people unfamiliar with the concept are confused, people who know what H4H is and view it as a bad thing laughed at it and supported it, and the rest are simpletons who think it's a legitimate H4H service level/opportunity to advertise their newest level/type a homerow key and press enter. ...and then there's this board. With such a mixed bag of opinions and behavioral traits, and tainted statistics that are impossible to read (only suppose and hypothesize upon), it's very difficult to assay the situation properly and really deem the quality or popularity of that particular level... or any level for that matter.

2009-06-14 15:25:00 Author: Unknown User

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I've argued my point, and have found quite a bit of flaws myself in the above statements. When I'm referring to popularity, I'm referring to the UNIQUE people who enjoyed a level, NOT how many people played a level over and over and over again. When you vote for a politician you get a single vote. The popularity of the politician would be completely arbitrary if someone could vote 30 times. Which means in LittleBigPlanet individual plays don't mean a lot - but is the primary way a level gets to the top. People not playing a leve multiple times has NOTHING to do with its quality - it has to do with the type of level it is - which means short, difficult, addictive levels have a greater chance at getting to page 1 than a well built experience - EVEN if the well-built level is more popular statistically. But... all of this is STILL irrelavent. My only point from the beginning was that it's selfish to use ANY means to have many of your levels (especially different VERSIONS of the same level) perpectually eating slots at the top of cool pages. People can still return to his levels any time they want to play them without them constantly sitting at the top of cool pages. The thing that's always attracted me to this website is the idea that the creators are looking out for each other and are interested in helping each other - not trying to grab as much of LittleBigPlanet that they possibly can and put themselves over others. To me the idea of a creator finding a means to constantly prevent other creators from getting plays by blatantly trying to have as many levels at the top of cool pages and THEN promoting it on this website is disturbing.

2009-06-14 17:24:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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I actually think the quality of the levels involved is irrelevant to the discussion. If this idea of cluster publishing is held up as an example of how to get a huge amount of plays, then it`ll catch on, as many successful ideas do. When the H4H crowd see that, 'Hey so THIS is how I should do it' then it`ll just make the cool levels a bigger joke than it already is. It`ll make it so much harder than it already is for folk to get their levels seen and played without using the same idea. Once the Ozzy Ozwalds of this world get a hold of it, not only will you be reading about his car garage on every page of every level, but you`ll see 4 or 5 of his levels on the cool pages as he`ll publish them all at the same time in an attempt to achieve the same results. And it`ll be at the expense of 4 or 5 other levels. And if others do the same thing, it`ll be at the expense of 20 or 40 levels. 1 guy doing it is not a huge problem. Hardly a problem at all in fact. The problem will come with the spam crowd. I just don`t think that holding up this way of publishing levels as a huge achievement is too great of an idea. It will catch on, and we'll all be complaining about it in a few months time when it becomes constant. Am I blaming Centurion for doing it? Nope. If he hadn`t done it, someone else would have along the line. Am I blaming the system that Mm introduced? Yup. EDIT: To me the idea of a creator finding a means to constantly prevent other creators from getting plays by blatantly trying to have as many levels at the top of cool pages and THEN promoting it on this website is disturbing. To be fair, it has been said that Centurion was unaware that he was blocking others from getting onto page 1. Secondly, he didn`t come onto this website promoting it. He only registered when NinjaMicWZ told him of the discussion.

2009-06-14 17:42:00 Author: Matt 82 Posts: 1096

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As I've said many times... I'm not blaming Centurian (if you look at the quote above, I said 'a creator' not saying him specifically - but I could see how it could be read in a way I didn't intend)... and I enjoy a number of his levels, only trying to keep the practice in check here.... that's it. And everything I've said above about the statistics and the way it works I've been observing for many months now directly, so arguing them is certainly not making me feel different. I don't even care whether people are doing it in LBP, in all honesty - it just bothers me that it could be promoted on this site. And the technique is already getting a bit widespread - so it's a bit too late to "shove it under the mattress" anyway. I noticed even today other creators pushing levels the same way - even emulating the numbers on the levels.

2009-06-14 17:56:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Some people don't vote at all, but keep on talking about the candidates and politics never really stops, even when the winner is declared no one unanimously agrees. Speaking of primary colors - CENTURION's levels remind me of World of Color alot more than they remind me of Ramp, or the frustratingly restart heavy "my key is broken"/my partner's are morons-but gorgeous Azure Palace.

2009-06-14 18:12:00 Author: Unknown User

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Ninja is still sailing beside the point... Just a note about the plays --- only the first 3 pages of levels are really played by people. It's not popularity that brings you there but how much you republished. The play count is an even less good indicator of "what people want" than the hearts or rating. Lastly, I know I repeat what has been said by Matt I think but the quality of levels anyways have nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Also, Centurion is having a couple of good levels that I personally hearted. .

2009-06-14 18:20:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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Well, to be fair... I honestly can see where Ninja stands - I don't think we want to treat CENTURIAN unfairly (Ninja is purposely redirecting to give a positive note and I agree). He's done some nice levels, and a couple of them are definately nicely styled levels, and the mechanics of the levels that play themselves are very clever. I think we can totally end the "quality" argument. This isn't about quality, and I would highly suggest anyone go check out his levels. I had my son go into one yesterday to show him how neat it was. This is also not about level popularity.... it's only about whether it's "nice" (not legal) to attempt that many constant levels at the top of cool pages keeping in mind the slot limitations. If everyone thinks it's an acceptable practice, and I'm out of my tree suggesting that it should be frowned upon, that's fine. We'll see where it takes us. By the way, I think this thread has resulted in my levels suddenly getting a bunch of plays and hearts. I have a feeling people are wondering if I'm just a jealous dude who has unpopular levels (so I'm being scrutinized....)

2009-06-14 18:32:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Ninja is still sailing beside the point... Just a note about the plays --- only the first 3 pages of levels are really played by people. It's not popularity that brings you there but how much you republished. The play count is an even less good indicator of "what people want" than the hearts or rating. Lastly, I know I repeat what has been said by Matt I think but the quality of levels anyways have nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Also, Centurion is having a couple of good levels that I personally hearted. . No, I'm not. I completely demolished the entire last few pages of this thread about how no one knows anything about how Cool Pages works and that I don't understand the point you're making in one long post. Then I argued Ccubs entire next point with 1 sentence about politics, in an easy to digest analogy on politics, and again differed the blame from CENTURION. You just keep backtracking... when one point fails, you bring up a different point that's closely related and make it seem as if that's all you were saying the whole time. Then that one fails, and it reverts to condescension and posturing and just keeps going in circles. The only point being sidestepped is on your sides where you're trying to intertwine the idea that CENTURION's levels don't deserve to be on cool pages because they were released consecutively and in a short period of time, with the idea that they are somehow inferior to the creations of others who are more deserving of being on top because they have only 1 level at a time (not true in most of your cases) and are vastly superior in quality to CENTURION's work That's not my opinion, but has been implied every time you guys get comfortable enough to mix in negativity and judgment with the preceding thin veil of positivity and concern. This is how you guys have been: It's not special I can do that I could do that, I just don't want to He's being selfish His levels aren't good Nothing against him, he's fine, but I don't want people to do the same thing as he's doing which is making levels that aren't good and being selfish ...2 posts later the whole thing keeps repeating It's a given that MM's servers are the way they are, and that H4H'rs and trophy-[solicitors] exist. So what? What does this have to do with CENTURION, and how would it not apply to creators you know when they make gimmicky license based levels like Contra or the Matrix (myself, Jaeyden, wex etc), different versions of their levels (Ccub, Ranger, Miglioshin, etc) two slightly modified renditions of the same basic concept (wex's pinball wizard levels), relaunch in hopes of getting new plays with an old level and effectively take the spot of someone who's just launched their level for the first time and would appreciate not having to relaunch it 4 months later a 2nd time (almost all of us). Why is it different now in this timeframe and with this person? Weren't we all unintentionally running the risk of setting a bad example? Or are our levels and behavior perfect, vastly superior, and therefore exempt from all responsibilities? CENTURION's unintentional success is a perfection of the small attempts our most popular and most failed have had in the past. Congratulate him the way you would when an LBPC'r gets on page 1 with levels that aren't nearly as good as some levels that get left behind, even though they are usually all flawed in some way and lacking in aspects depending on which segment of the audience gives their verdict. You could easily say we're eating up real estate that could easily support non-community members (from all sites) who have no support group or underground infrastructure to ensure their success. What would be the point of extrapolating such a negative scenario and consequence out of a positive success, regardless of who they are? It's nothing but bad intent, or at the very least, ignorance of oneself.

2009-06-14 18:49:00 Author: Unknown User

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NinjaMicWZ, while I have to say you make some very good points, on a few occasions you`re guilty of putting words into people`s mouths. From what I gather, people (myself included) are expressing a concern that this tactic/idea/whatever will become widespread. Is there a problem with that? Can you see why that might be an issue with some?

2009-06-14 19:49:00 Author: Matt 82 Posts: 1096

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I congratulate him for having successful levels. That being said, Thegide and I did initial experimenting with this technique. I did careful testing with him on his Pinball level. We KNEW it would push up to the top simply because people would play it many times. So.... we put keys to the Shadow Moses level and the Idol of Pilantcher as into it and pushed those up into the top of cool pages immediately... at the same time also shoving my Splat Invaders II up there. (so, in effect, I figured this trick out about 4 or 5 months ago....) I went to congratulate Thegide seeing as we managed to get 3 of his levels to the top at once.... he pretty much said "lol.... felt like cheating...." Once we realized how easy it was to push our levels up, the magic was gone. We both realized it had little to do with popularity and a lot to do with publishing practices - and in the case of Shadow Moses B and Idol, using the Pinball level as a catalyst. Ever since then I've been helping individual creators take their great levels and get some recognition, and it's been working nicely. I directly worked with Dobi6, AppelesJr, obviously RangerZero (among others) - and we took good levels and showcased them in cool levels - to some great hearts and ratings. This system DOES work nicely until creators use it's ability to "easily" get levels recognition and use it to an excess - which is what's happening, regardless of whether it's accidental or not. This "fair" system will get more and more difficult as creators use it for many of their levels out of a thirst for attention. Now... maybe CENTURIAN didn't realize the way it worked, and ACCIDENTALLY ended up consistently getting on page 1 with 5 levels at the same time, but the fact remains (coming from one who is an expert on the way cool pages works) - this is NOT a popularity contest - cool pages is supposed to allow many different creators who are just as good and deserving as CENTURIAN to be able to showcase their level.

2009-06-14 19:53:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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dead horse......

2009-06-14 21:38:00 Author: CENTURION24 Posts: 266

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All Ninja has to do is request it be locked. My personal takeaway points: 1. CENTURIAN is an excellent creator who has a knack for creating some nice addictive levels - there's several that people should check out. 2. I'd still like to know the answer to whether constantly pushing a bunch of levels at once in cool pages SHOULD be frowned upon... because if not, I think everyone here has a LOT of versions of their own levels to start publishing. 3. Is the emphasis on this site quality of level as achievement or the number of plays/hearts received? #3 is a tough one for NinjaMicWZ - one of my top 4 favorite creators (who probably hates me now lol) and at the same time has had a hard time cracking the top of cool pages because..... we're primarily entertaining 8-year-olds there anyway and they don't know how to lead a beam of light.

2009-06-14 22:37:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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No, I'm not. I completely demolished the entire last few pages of this thread about how no one knows anything about how Cool Pages works Wonder what you mean there. I totally know how they work and a bunch of other players in this thread too. when one point fails, you bring up a different point that's closely related and make it seem as if that's all you were saying the whole time. Then that one fails, and it reverts to condescension and posturing and just keeps going in circles. Discussion. It's not side stepping or trying to bring up other stuff trying to find somewhere I can be right. I'm simply discussing the side arguments YOU guys are bringing up because I like discussing. I answered the "I know that my levels are what people want" and also when you or Centurion were saying popularity brings your level to the top. Popularity and quality had nothing to do with what we were debating but I answered those points anyways. If one really understand how Cool Pages work, how can he think he can know what people want? People will like what will be in the first 3 pages, whatever it is. And levels in the first 3 pages will be the ones that get republished and that's all. You can put a bad level on top just by republishing alot if you'd want. The only point being sidestepped is on your sides where you're trying to intertwine the idea that CENTURION's levels don't deserve to be on cool pages because they were released consecutively and in a short period of time, with the idea that they are somehow inferior to the creations of others who are more deserving of being on top because they have only 1 level at a time (not true in most of your cases) and are vastly superior in quality to CENTURION's work I never meant such thing. I invite you to re-read my posts exclusively in this thread, I don't think Centurion is pushing bad levels or not deserving the Cool pages. It's not special I can do that Obviously we can do that. I could do that, I just don't want to Of course we can do it and don't want it. Personally, I can't give 2 sh*ts about my bunch of levels all having alot of plays and making the Cool pages. Some made, some didn't, I don't care because I am not there to clutter the system and craving for plays. He's being selfish Of course he is if he think he might not be setting a bad trend there.(the entire point of the discussion). The first H4Her wasn't more harmful in himself and only used a flaw of the system. At that point, the same thing could have been argued, I mean, why would it have started a bad trend? It's a legit way to earn hearts in this broken system afterall. But this did set an annoying trend regardless. His levels aren't good I reminded many times in this thread that I liked a bunch of his levels and hearted some. No way i'm hearting a bad level sorry. It's a given that MM's servers are the way they are, and that H4H'rs and trophy-[solicitors] exist. So what? What does this have to do with CENTURION, and how would it not apply to creators you know when they make gimmicky license based levels like Contra or the Matrix (myself, Jaeyden, wex etc), different versions of their levels (Ccub, Ranger, Miglioshin, etc) two slightly modified renditions of the same basic concept (wex's pinball wizard levels), relaunch in hopes of getting new plays with an old level and effectively take the spot of someone who's just launched their level for the first time and would appreciate not having to relaunch it 4 months later a 2nd time (almost all of us). Why is it different now in this timeframe and with this person? Weren't we all unintentionally running the risk of setting a bad example? Or are our levels and behavior perfect, vastly superior, and therefore exempt from all responsibilities? This is an exemple of when I wonder where you are rumbling at. If there's a flaw in a system (and good God there are many in LBP) it doesn't mean it's ok to exploit it. I indeed wonder what's different now with Centurion! I and a bunch of other people always complained about the "too many liscence based levels", we complain also about HRHers, etc. I wonder why I should change my tune this time with Centurion. I think he might help setting a bad trend in the community so of course I will complain too. CENTURION's unintentional success is a perfection of the small attempts our most popular and most failed have had in the past. Congratulate him the way you would when an LBPC'r gets on page 1 with levels that aren't nearly as good as some levels that get left behind, even though they are usually all flawed in some way and lacking in aspects depending on which segment of the audience gives their verdict. As I said before, exploiting the flaws or a system isn't necessarily good. I think that publishing and keeping too many levels on top of the cool page unecessarily hurt the visibility for other potential levels -- especially if it becomes a trend. I do hope it won't become one though. I count on the lazyness of most people that should prevent them from making the effort of constantly republishing a bunch of their levels at the same time. So yeah, you don't have to agree with us that Centurion's behavior there might be ultimately hurting the community by setting a bad trend. I wonder how this discussion needed to almost become personal. You sounded defensive for nothing in the last pages and you're also putting stuff into my mouth. If it's too much to just discuss, I invite you to agree to disagree. Dead Horse indeed like Centurion just said... .

2009-06-14 22:55:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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I kinda feel bad for him after reading trought this whole topic, since he joined and saw it all his levels are enjoyable and good.

2009-06-14 23:13:00 Author: oldage Posts: 2824

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I'm not sure where I stand on this topic, but honestly MM should just make it so a single creator can only have 2(most recent) levels on the Cool Pages at a time. Sure it would still be possible to abuse this, but not as much, and it would prevent many slots being taken up by a single creator.

2009-06-14 23:41:00 Author: Walter-Kovacs Posts: 542

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I'm not sure where I stand on this topic, but honestly MM should just make it so a single creator can only have 2(most recent) levels on the Cool Pages at a time. Sure it would still be possible to abuse this, but not as much, and it would prevent many slots being taken up by a single creator. That would definately do it.... I kinda feel bad for him after reading trought this whole topic, since he joined and saw it all his levels are enjoyable and good. I feel bad for him too. The truth is, I'm the first one who complained and I LIKE HIS LEVELS TOO. Unfortunately, this thread touched on a subject that I've been carefully watching for several months.... hoping it wouldn't rear it's ugly head. Now lately I've been watching this cause issues. Centurian - I am REALLY sorry you got involved in it. This probably should have been it's own topic which didn't include an individual, and for that I'm (truly) sorry to a point of having a big knot in my stomach. But you can understand, I've been watching the "whole bunch of levels" thing affect negatively many levels that I was rooting for lately because the levels were astounding and were getting great ratings, and it hurts to watch other levels rise up and push them down until they never make it to page 1 - simply because they were using a number of other levels as a catalyst. I can physically see the results.

2009-06-15 00:23:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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I'm not sure where I stand on this topic, but honestly MM should just make it so a single creator can only have 2(most recent) levels on the Cool Pages at a time. Sure it would still be possible to abuse this, but not as much, and it would prevent many slots being taken up by a single creator. Then i would be the only one with the "I heart L B P" on page 1 muHAHAHAHAHAHAhaaaaa........<<<thriller laugh . seriously i think that would keep the sky from falling. that might be a good & fair idea

2009-06-15 00:36:00 Author: CENTURION24 Posts: 266

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There goes my idea of fully developing an entire 20 part series over the course of 6 months and releasing it all at once as a stand alone project... :/

2009-06-15 01:24:00 Author: Unknown User

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There goes my idea of fully developing an entire 20 part series over the course of 6 months and releasing it all at once as a stand alone project... :/ I think it can be done nicely whether MM changed it or not... just release all 20 at the exact same time and do the "republishing dance" on the first one. If someone plays the first they move on to the 2nd, the third, so on. That way all 20 fall off of cool pages in 7 days regardless.

2009-06-15 01:46:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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Also, level linking is supposed to come in a future update. Maybe it will be possible to launch "a pack" or a one huge level that will load a couple of times when it changes sections... .

2009-06-15 02:57:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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My personal vote is that we delete this thread, welcome CENTURIAN, and now that it's been discussed and everyone understands the issue leave the cool pages thing up to personal choice (I'm personally a bit scared of it... but it's certainly part of what LittleBigPlanet allows you to do...)

2009-06-15 13:22:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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My personal vote is that we delete this thread, welcome CENTURIAN, and now that it's been discussed and everyone understands the issue leave the cool pages thing up to personal choice (I'm personally a bit scared of it... but it's certainly part of what LittleBigPlanet allows you to do...) Why delete? It can serves as food for thought. I didn't change my opinion on the whole thing and I think some other members migh want to read. Cool for you if you think it's now "good practice". What I'd suggest though it a title change. It could be named "publishing multiple levels at a time" instead of pointing out Centurion. .

2009-06-15 13:36:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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Why delete? It can serves as food for thought. I didn't change my opinion on the whole thing and I think some other members migh want to read. Cool for you if you think it's now "good practice". What I'd suggest though it a title change. It could be named "publishing multiple levels at a time" instead of pointing out Centurion. . No, I haven't changed my mind - and I don't plan on using the technique personally... I just felt the whole principle was out in the open so people could make their own decision considering the ramifications. It's mainly the direct Centurian reference, and it did several times unfairly mention his levels - I since went back and more objectively went through his stuff and it was unfair to cut down any of his levels (except 1 - which I don't think he meant to be a 'quality' level anyway).

2009-06-15 13:43:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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My personal vote is that we delete this thread, welcome CENTURIAN, and now that it's been discussed and everyone understands the issue leave the cool pages thing up to personal choice (I'm personally a bit scared of it... but it's certainly part of what LittleBigPlanet allows you to do...) If I have a vote, I would vote to delete as well.. Though RangerZero has a point that there is some really great info. So possibly pulling the information and creating a publishing ethics faq thread. That way folks can make their own decisions on whatever they want to do.

2009-06-15 14:39:00 Author: jwwphotos Posts: 11383

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It's not "bad" that we did discuss this issue. Why would one want to "hide" that from other poster in the forum? Is there any other possible reason to delete a thread? Also, you know this might reappear again. I'd change the title of this thread so it becomes descriptive and it will appear in people's automatic searches and when they create another thread. It might help prevent similar thread to be made for nothing. .

2009-06-15 16:07:00 Author: RangerZero Posts: 3901

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remember this thread lol? i don't think i'll ever really be accepted here but oh well, im still here....

2010-01-24 04:23:00 Author: CENTURION24 Posts: 266

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Yo! I still rememver playing your first level (Controllers down, right?). I loved it. Then the "I <3 LBP" thing was just awesome. Dude, in my eyes, you are WIDELY accepted here... Erm, then again, you've just bumped a 1/2-year old thread, so... :S

2010-01-24 04:28:00 Author: Outlaw-Jack Posts: 5757

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Yeah there really was no need to bump the thread. But what Centurion did half a year ago reflects what many authors do now to become popular. It's also funny to see how many opinions of certain members have changed in such little time.

2010-01-24 05:01:00 Author: TheFirstAvenger Posts: 787

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You're a cool guy Endless_Echo... you always speak your mind. You remind me of me with the nudge nudge wink wink, and being so vocal about The Bunker.

2010-01-24 13:11:00 Author: Unknown User

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Yup, I agree... but it is interesting to look back. I personally totally excepted CENTURION24 as a member, a nice guy, and an excellent creator.... but if we look back a bit, this way of publishing definately has affected cool levels in the way I feared.... and I like the Bunker...

2010-01-24 13:48:00 Author: CCubbage Posts: 4430

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It was ok for it's time, not a bad level at all, but definitely no H.A.T.E., sackboy's inferno episode 2, Lost Tomb of Anubis, Splat Invaders Saga, Stardust 3, Lost Tomb of Anubis, Basilisk Bog, Scary Factory/Magnificent Ruby, or Flaming Timberland 2 etc from the same timeframe of releases... the real Bunker from story mode is win though. can o' worms.

2010-01-24 14:07:00 Author: Unknown User

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Wait what Bunker? Pom's Bunker or the story's Bunker? I'm confused, I don't know whether or not your post was sarcasm.

2010-01-24 16:17:00 Author: TheFirstAvenger Posts: 787

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No, it wasn't sarcasm, and I meant no offense, and whichever Bunker it is that you have strong feelings about

2010-01-24 18:38:00 Author: Unknown User

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i hate the wheel of death. you brought back bad memories of the collectors ****able wheel of death......

2010-01-24 21:13:00 Author: poorjack Posts: 1806

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No offense NinjaMicWz & co. The problem with the bunker is it will always be judged as "the level that was highest ranked", and of course it didn't deserve that "honor". For example, I remember my first time posting in this forum, Tjb0607 said it was outstanding, Jack replied saying it was good, but wasn't that spectacular, and a third person replied saying "yeah, it wasn't the best level ever, so I rated 3 stars". The problem here is there's no level in this world that deserves that "honor". All that levels Ninja mentioned, are amazing, and I would include some more in that list, but what would happen if one of those levels would have been top ranked for 6 or 7 months? Many people would disagree, and after some time, probably would hate it. Other than that, no one has ever talked about many other levels that have been in 1st page of highest ranked, and anyone who plays videogames for the last 15 or 20 years would agree they were crap. Regards

2010-01-24 22:14:00 Author: poms Posts: 383

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Yep, people's perspectives would probably change on all our favorite levels. I still liked the Bunker, but I actually never got to play it when it was new. After I played Miracle of Life I was like "wow" and knew I had to go and finally play the Bunker level I'd seen so many times. I got tons of terrible ratings myself, and the closer I got to making what I thought was a good level, or a successful level, the worse the comments and feedback would get. I've got plenty of levels that I think are awful in retrospect, or at least, not what I would rate 5 stars in the time I've been away from the game, and with alot of the videos I've watched. Hence why I really can't wait to remake alot of my older stuff in much grander fashion, and be as hard a critic on myself as I may have been on others. Also, I agree with you, out of all the levels that have ever been on highest rated, The Bunker is one of the best ones and one of the very few that's NOT a "wtf kind of crap is this?" level, so it really doesn't deserve harsh scrutiny.

2010-01-24 22:27:00 Author: Unknown User

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No, it wasn't sarcasm, and I meant no offense, and whichever Bunker it is that you have strong feelings about Well it did feel like sarcasm, and I'm sure you were talking about that Bunker. Which I don't have any "strong feelings about," all I said in the past was that to me it was a 3 Star level, which I still don't see why some people made a big deal about. Oh, and your welcome, it was because of me that those nasty pictures russel uploaded onto your levels were deleted.

2010-01-25 03:53:00 Author: TheFirstAvenger Posts: 787

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I wasn't being sarcastic, or trying to get under your skin with anything I said. I was seriously just supporting your thoughts and aligning myself with your outspoken nature. Thanks, though. I remember that, and never knew who was responsible. If there was an opposite of the winking face, I would put it here. http://board.rapmusic.com/images/smilies/sport-smiley-12.gif

2010-01-25 04:09:00 Author: Unknown User

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I wasn't being sarcastic, or trying to get under your skin with anything I said. I was seriously just supporting your thoughts and aligning myself with your outspoken nature. Thanks, though. I remember that, and never knew who was responsible. If there was an opposite of the winking face, I would put it here. http://board.rapmusic.com/images/smilies/sport-smiley-12.gif Well that truly means a lot, thank you.

2010-01-25 04:15:00 Author: TheFirstAvenger Posts: 787

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Erm... what were we talking about guys? Sorry, Cent - please don't bump old threads, especially just for sake of bumping them. I think there are other threads that were made recently that would be suited to continuing this discussion. Locked.

2010-01-25 04:25:00 Author: comphermc Posts: 5338

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