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Motion Controls - Natal / PS Motion Controller / Wii Motion Plus

Archive: 62 posts

A bit of background on me - When it comes to games, I've been patiently putting up with go********ed dual analog controllers for some time. I don't even have a love-hate relationship with them. These days it's pretty much just a hate relationship. For some time now, we've had MORE than enough technology at affordable prices to have a major revolution in how we control and interact with our games. So why haven't we been using it?? 1 reason, a mantra that both game/console developers, and ESPECIALLY gamers have chanted for YEARS:

"if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

A while back I made a post on the official Playstation message boards calling for a "rallying of the troops" so to speak, behind the mindset that we shouldn't be happy with the status quo, we should demand more, we should stop putting up with the same controller released year after year after year.

Nintendo took a major step with the Wii. It hasn't yet delivered on its promise, but it was at least something different. We all hate waggle controls. A few times the wii really shines, but the tech behind it is pretty outdated considering what's possible.

In the thread I outlined a number of ideas that could potentially work amazingly. One is exactly the tech behind Natal.

Natal, for anyone who missed it, is a camera system for the Xbox360. I believe it uses infrared to read distances from the camera, as well as a traditional digital pixel camera. And this is where I beg anyone reading to check your console loyalty at the door. I don't even OWN a 360. But I'm behind Natal with the full force of my excitement.

So this will read not only every motion you make with your body, head, hands, etc in front of the camera, but also the DISTANCE of each body part, or object you're holding, from the camera. So every move you make is registered in realtime.

In the demos they showed, there's a bit of lag at times, as well as one or two embarassingly bad demos (the avatar mimicking the movements had me rolling on the floor. He looked like he was being tortured by a psychic interrogator).

But Peter Molyneux had a presentation ready that his team cooked up in a few months. A first person interactive experience - not really a game - in which you "hang out" basically, with a digital character Milo. Milo recognizes your face, your voice, and inflections. You have a conversation with him, play games with him. You can pass objects back and forth "through the tv". It's designed from the ground up to use Natal to be an entirely immersive experience.

I'm already imagining the adventure games I dreamed of having on the Wii (that never came), in which every activity done by the character is done by you. Take the Dragon Quest games, for instance, or Zelda. How fun would it be to do one of the little mini-games necessary, like alchemy in Dragon Quest 8. You'd have a little table full of ingredients and tools. To perform your alchemy... You simply do it. With your hands, onscreen. There'd be a 3D "hand" icon onscreen that you would manipulate with your actual hands, or perhaps, you would just see your own arms' shadows over the table of supplies. This technology would also allow you to use actual objects. If you wanted to lay out jars and items in front of you that would basically mimic what's onscreen, the game might have an option to allow you to do that as well.

Right now the ball's in the developers' court. This could just become another Playstation Eye, a cool peripheral with some "different" games, that never really takes off or goes anywhere.

But it has a lot going for it that the Eye doesn't. Namely precision and real 3D control. If developers' can first pull off something amazing, a killer app, and then gamers eat it up, buy it - we could have something on our hands.

So I'm HOPING for big things - insanely big things - but I'm keeping my expectations reigned in. I will say that I haven't been this excited for videogames in general in some time.		2009-06-01 20:38:00

Author:
Teebonesy
Posts: 1937

...I like analog controllers.

I don't really want to be the controller. Too much exercise!


Don't get your hopes up. The Wii is a good console, but the motion controls are incredibly weak and inaccurate. This very well could be another Wii.		2009-06-01 20:46:00

Author:
qrtda235566
Posts: 3664

I'm fully aware that this could be another Wii. But here's what excites me:

They did it. They're doing it. It's gotten developers excited. It's gotten a lot of people in the industry excited.

It's just a sign that the mindset is changing. THAT'S what's exciting me. If Natal crashes and burns, I'll be seriously bummed out, because that's going to burn all the developers who have the balls to be brave and do something different. I want this to work, I want developers to be rewarded for it.

Either way, I feel like the mood is changing in this industry, where developers are starting to realize - we have the technology to do something seriously different, more immersive, something that matches our games. Right now we're playing these AMAZING-looking HD games, but controlling them essentially with an NES controller. There are bells and whistles - a couple of thumb-sticks (the atari used a stick for god's sake, it didn't take much imagination to get THERE), and just a whack more buttons plastered in.

And everyone's content-enough as it is. This is what we're used to. People, once used to something, don't like change. I've been at the point for some time now where I'm ITCHING for it. That dual analog controller? That's George W. Bush as far as I'm concerned. Get it out of here. We need developers with imagination, we need gamers with open minds, and we need some serious money spent on R&D for the next major control revolution.

Will it be Natal? Probably not.

But at least there's something in the air now.		2009-06-01 20:52:00

Author:
Teebonesy
Posts: 1937

This won't fly. Too tiring. It's just because its the dream of people since so many years. Voice control, motion control. But this won't fly. Oh yes it will be cool now that it's on 360 that's for sure, and hardcore gamers might bite but nothing beats a controller for 2 detrimental things:

-Precision
-Minimal effort

That's why sooner or later, people will go back at controllers. We simply don't want to move this much. Right now this is cool because they are selling you a dream. It's ala mode, it looks perfect in the video but it's bull. There are shortcoming, it won't work as well as in the videos, just like the Wiimote is having its limitation and never works as cool as in Nintendo's videos. It's as simple as that.

Right now the 360 is tapping in the ala mode with this facebook, twitter, music and video sharing and movement gaming, a huge pile of cool fluff but that will ultimately lead nowhere. Cheap excitement -- just like people like.		2009-06-01 20:55:00

Author:
RangerZero
Posts: 3901

I agree with you that Natal may not offer precision the way that controllers... do? Wait, dual analog sticks are about as precise as throwing darts with your teeth! Just play any FPS with sticks compared to a mouse-and-keyboard.

Your points are valid though, and I have a feeling that Natal may go the way of the PS-eye, and end up a curiosity of sorts. For one, you need it on every Xbox. You need to begin bundling it standard with the system. And you need killer apps.

But the future of game control is, as you mentioned, precision. I promise you it won't be dual thumbsticks. It might be a "3d mouse" type of controller, in which you move your hand or a small controller, as you would a mouse on a mousepad, but in 3d space. Imagine the mousepad as an invisible 3D cube. this tech is also possible. I've seen demos of a "wearable" 3D mouse, as a ring that you wear.

Peter Molyneux's demo of Milo was impressive in its level of immersion. This thing is impressive, and it was accomplished in only a couple of months. Given the type of development times and budgets that feature games have, and with a trailblazing director at the helm, I have no doubts that this thing could be absolutely amazing. Whether that situation ever comes to pass remains to be seen, but it's definitely an up-hill battle.

It's not a sure thing. People are scared of sure things.		2009-06-01 21:09:00

Author:
Teebonesy
Posts: 1937

It looks really cool. It will be interesting to see what Nintendo do to counter this. One section of the showcase didn't turn out well for them:

YmY0JNRIPOU&fmt=18		2009-06-01 21:24:00

Author:
Killian
Posts: 2575

I like my dualshock. 3 generations strong, and still the most comfortable controller to use (though I did start on n64...)2009-06-01 21:30:00

Author:
Theap Pleman
Posts: 670

Well, this could most definitely work.

Peter Molyneux was the only guy who got me excited for this.
He's the guy you go to for creating a hype.
He always fails to live up to them, but that's a discussion for another day

Take the Milo demo for example, this is REALLY HARD to pull off as a finished game.
Most of the times, the character will not understand what you are saying and doing and I'm pretty sure the character won't be able
to stray outside of his standard programmed routines that much.

I can already imagine, as with the Wii, that only a handfull of games will use this feature to it's full potential.
We'll mostly just get gimmick-games I guess.

But no worries, seriously.
The controller isn't going away anytime soon.		2009-06-01 21:46:00

Author:
Zwollie
Posts: 2173

The reason the playstation controller isn't changing is because they'd already nailed the design for the ps1 - Now with each console they just keep tweaking it to make it more precise and give it more subtle new features
And the only reason other consoles aren't using this design is simply because they aren't allowed!


On the other hand i think that this whole motion capture thing is a terrible idea, it's a bigger gimmick than the Wii's control system.

Did you ever play those terrible eyetoy games, or i think they're called ps eye's now?
Most games made for them literally are toys that you get bored of after 5 minutes.
It just isn't possible to create a serious game based on this method of control.

The only way i can see this working is if you have the console a regular controller and just had the motion capture thing as a small optional feature		2009-06-01 22:49:00

Author:
Dexiro
Posts: 2100

The reason the playstation controller isn't changing is because they'd already nailed the design for the ps1 - Now with each console they just keep tweaking it to make it more precise and give it more subtle new features
And the only reason other consoles aren't using this design is simply because they aren't allowed!


On the other hand i think that this whole motion capture thing is a terrible idea, it's a bigger gimmick than the Wii's control system.

Did you ever play those terrible eyetoy games, or i think they're called ps eye's now?
Most games made for them literally are toys that you get bored of after 5 minutes.
It just isn't possible to create a serious game based on this method of control.

The only way i can see this working is if you have the console a regular controller and just had the motion capture thing as a small optional feature

I would totally see Quest Games getting revolutionised by the Microsoft new camera. Imagine a full fledged and interactive next-gen and high budget Phoenix Wright game!! I would actually buy the device for that.

.		2009-06-01 23:26:00

Author:
RangerZero
Posts: 3901

It looks really cool. It will be interesting to see what Nintendo do to counter this. One section of the showcase didn't turn out well for them:

YmY0JNRIPOU&fmt=18

This was HILARIOUS... there were a couple of moments where the thing, particularly on the avatar-motion bits, was just hilariously bad.

"Ever wonder what the bottom of your avatar's SHOE LOOKS LIKE??"

*avatar on-screen spasms in a violent convulsion for a few seconds, eventually twists leg painfully sideways to reveal bottom of shoe*

"BAM!!"		2009-06-02 00:11:00

Author:
Teebonesy
Posts: 1937

I think this'll be just like Wii or PSEye in the end... the coolness of this lasts only until you actually try it once, then it's just an annoying gimmick... and not just for players. Programming the **** thing to work efficiently for games that could actually benefit for it would be.. ehh...

Some Wii games are cool, but we all know they mostly just throw in "waggles" and call it motion controls, the PS Eye games are cool at first as well.... it's a pretty cool technology, but nothing beats a dual analog controller on a console.		2009-06-02 02:36:00

Author:
Foofles
Posts: 2278

i hate to sound like a downer, but i have a slight feeling that this might just fail, don't get me wrong i love sony, but this if it going to work is amazing! The amount of innovation in this industry that can be achieved with just voice recognition and body movement, interesting to see how this plays out keep an eye on it!2009-06-02 02:44:00

Author:
Frank-the-Bunny
Posts: 1246

i hate to sound like a downer, but i have a slight feeling that this might just fail, don't get me wrong i love sony, but this if it going to work is amazing! The amount of innovation in this industry that can be achieved with just voice recognition and body movement, interesting to see how this plays out keep an eye on it!

Kmills dude, this is Microsofts XBOX360, not the PS3. 360 Exclusive.

And it looks terrible imo. I don't like the eyetoy, I don't like the wii (unless I can sit down and play, like Mario Galaxy) and I don't like this.		2009-06-02 02:55:00

Author:
ryryryan
Posts: 3767

Wii's got it's own version made by ubisoft! This isn't unique anymore, sony needs to follow up with one now too.2009-06-02 02:57:00

Author:
Theap Pleman
Posts: 670

Wii's got it's own version made by ubisoft! This isn't unique anymore, sony needs to follow up with one now too.

Eurgh, no thanks. They've wasted money on enough things (such as home), and they alreads have the PS Eye, so I just want there money to go to good exclusives.		2009-06-02 03:04:00

Author:
ryryryan
Posts: 3767

True, I don't really care if they made their own version of this. In fact, I want it to stick to good ole dualshock. Kinda like I hate making the PSP GO downloadable games only, I think that was the wrong move.2009-06-02 03:07:00

Author:
Theap Pleman
Posts: 670

Besides, if Sony did something similar everyone would say that they "ripped off the wii and 360".2009-06-02 03:08:00

Author:
Arkei
Posts: 1432

Eurgh, no thanks. They've wasted money on enough things (such as home), and they alreads have the PS Eye, so I just want there money to go to good exclusives.

What difference does it make that their games are "exclusive"... if it comes out on PS3, whether it's cross-platform or not, you'll still be able to play it.

I think this is the one of the worst things in the industry right now. That the major players will spend huge amounts of money just ensuring that they land major exclusives with top studios, when that same money could conceivably go toward R&D on new tech and experimental games, on innovation and ideas that might actually (GASP!) push the industry forward. I wish something would happen that would drastically separate either Microsoft or Sony's console. Nintendo did something different enough that they're kind of their own thing off on the side doing something else altogether.

But the 360 and the PS3 are basically the same **** platform. If that wasn't the case, we wouldn't see such a ridiculous emphasis on exclusivity, this "console war" wouldn't be so absurd.		2009-06-02 03:18:00

Author:
Teebonesy
Posts: 1937

Besides, if Sony did something similar everyone would say that they "ripped off the wii and 360".

True. Just like how they ripped off the Mii Channel onthe Wii with Home.

But Sony has HAD something similar for ages. The Eyetoy. All they have to do now is put the Eyetoy to some use besides a cheap PSN title.		2009-06-02 03:46:00

Author:
qrtda235566
Posts: 3664

At the most, I see Project Natal becoming a "platform" for new games - the problem is, I seriously doubt the same fans that spend their money on "hardcore" games will want to switch to Natal. Personally, I have no desire to play video games with my body due to the role video games play in my life. To me, video games are fun way to kick back and relax; I have never had the desire to get up and "interact". I'm open to innovation, but so far I haven't seen anything that sparks my interest.2009-06-02 06:08:00

Author:
ConfusedCartman
Posts: 3729

At the most, I see Project Natal becoming a "platform" for new games - the problem is, I seriously doubt the same fans that spend their money on "hardcore" games will want to switch to Natal. Personally, I have no desire to play video games with my body due to the role video games play in my life. To me, video games are fun way to kick back and relax; I have never had the desire to get up and "interact". I'm open to innovation, but so far I haven't seen anything that sparks my interest.

You're right, this is going to have an uphill battle appealing to the hardcore crowd. I mean, this thread is a tiny indication of that. Moreso on other message boards. Gamers by and large are not going to embrace this. Microsoft knows this, so they're probably going to market it to the casual crowd, to bite into Nintendo's pie. Their preview video for Natal makes this quite clear.

But I know there's REAL potential in this thing - It's too early to know if that potential will ever be actually realized on Natal. I sincerely hope it does, and in more than a casual-crowd way. because otherwise it's going to be such a step backward. I feel like there are some stakes here, that if this thing gets no hardcore lovin' at any point, then the big console companies will lose their balls and be afraid to introduce any kind of change in the near future, and it'll delay the real control revolutions.		2009-06-02 09:07:00

Author:
Teebonesy
Posts: 1937

I really like how you use the wiimote in some games. I've only played a very FEW games that utilize the wiimote but I really liked boom blox for example. I really liked playing through phantom hourglass just recently. So This thing has the potential to do some cool stuff. I'll definately keep an eye out for what they create for it.2009-06-02 12:16:00

Author:
BasketSnake
Posts: 2391

To me, video games are fun way to kick back and relax; I have never had the desire to get up and "interact". I'm open to innovation, but so far I haven't seen anything that sparks my interest.

Yes, yes, yes. I wanna sit on my sofa or preferably lie down on my sofa when I play games. It bugs me that I have to sit up to use sixaxis sometimes. If I wanna get up and jump around, I'll go outside and run around the park, maybe play sport with (would you believe it) real people.

The dualshock is a masterpiece in ergonomic design IMO. Gimmicky bleeding-edge tech which promises so much and always falls short* is never going to beat the simple, robust, elegant designs. I read a story about two months ago where some self-proclaimed expert was saying the the mouse would be a dead technology in 2 years time. If this happens I'm gonna be stockpiling mouses/mice. These interfaces have stood for so long because they are so solid. I'd much rather see R&D money pumped into truely original gaming concepts that we see so rarely (like Hurdy Gurdy or LBP).

*for well over 20 years we have been promised interface revolutions in computing and gaming, they mostly revolve around body movement and the Wii is the only one that hasn't fallen completely on it's face, but the tech is not solid and it's main focus is casual gamers and gimmickery.

Edit - this just occured to me: Directed at the OP, you are moaning about how you truely hate the analogue controllers, but yopu don't say why... The only argument against them you seem to have is that "we have technology to do something different". Which we don't really, but regardless of that fact, technology for technology's sake seems a circular argument to me.		2009-06-02 13:15:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

I have the SNES SuperScope! The bazooka. Always shoot the BLUE MOLES! NOT THE RED! THE BLUE! Mole Patrol wooo!2009-06-02 13:18:00

Author:
BasketSnake
Posts: 2391

It'll just end up as another expensive peripheral with casual party games.2009-06-02 15:44:00

Author:
Rabid-Coot
Posts: 6728

I think this looks cool, maybe even better then the Wii Remotes in my opinion, but I think this will probably end up something like the Wii or the Eyetoy/PSeye. It'll have lots of potential like the Wii and the PSeye, but I think it'll just be wasted by developers just keep making casual party games (shovelware) like they do with the Wii. Don't get me wrong, I like the Wii and I can remember having lots of fun on the Eyetoy on the PS2, but I just think it'll end up as something like the Wii did: a good concept but with very little games that use it's potential.

I also think it would have LOADS of problems and glitches with it, and I prefer to just relax when gaming, holding just a controller whilst laying down.		2009-06-02 18:35:00

Author:
lk9988
Posts: 1077

Edit - this just occured to me: Directed at the OP, you are moaning about how you truely hate the analogue controllers, but yopu don't say why... The only argument against them you seem to have is that "we have technology to do something different". Which we don't really, but regardless of that fact, technology for technology's sake seems a circular argument to me.

Here are my problems with dual analog controls:

- Imprecision. All the tweaking and adjusting of sensitivity in the world isn't going to fix a system in which you control a character in 3D space using two thumbsticks. I loves me a good shooter. That's a fact. I own both Resistance games, Killzone 2 (hell, I even bought Killzone 1), RE5, Bioshock, Fallout 3, Uncharted, I've rented more, and that's just on the PS3. I'm starting to get really, really sick of aiming in first person with a thumbstick. I honestly feel like the Wii's best fps games feature controls FAR superior to this old, old setup. I think the original Turok was the first game to do this. You aimed with the analog stick on the N64 and used the C-buttons to move around. Because honestly, let's look at that left analog stick on our dualshocks for shooters. When in the WORLD do you ever NOT need to push it all the way? The OCCASIONAL stealthy sneak, so rare in shooters? And when is that direction in-between the 8 directions of a d-pad? It might as well not even be a stick. We're at the same point control-wise we were when Turok 1 came out in 1997. It was pretty cool back then. I'm frankly getting sick and tired of it. Tiny taps to aim a miniscule amount, and then over-shooting it. More tiny taps. Re-adjusting the sensitivity. It gets ridiculous. You have to be able to zoom in for any hope of being able to aim at anything.

Play Medal of Honor Heroes 2 or Metroid Corruption, or, from what I hear, the upcoming Conduit on the Wii to get a feel for a far greater level of precision in a shooter.

Or, any PC shooter in more than a decade.

I'm not claiming to know what the answer is exactly - I don't have the millions of dollars to spend on R&D that the big console companies do. But since we don't know what it is at this point, it takes balls, it takes bravery, it takes willingness, it takes an open mind to experiment and find it. I believe that the imagination, the creativity, and the tech is out there right now to be controlling console games, from our couch, with far greater precision than we do now with dual sticks.

I also honestly get tired of holding the controllers. I've got 9 fingers and 2 thumbs. All I use, period, is my two thumbs to play games, and the occasional index finger on a shoulder button. If this doesn't seem like a wasted opportunity, I don't know what is. After a marathon playing session, my bottom two knuckles feel like they're about to fall out. Sometimes in PS2 and PS3 games, it's necessary to hold several shoulder buttons down at once, necessitating middle fingers as well as index, in a highly uncomfortable contorting of the hand. A good developer knows to avoid control schemes that require both R1 and R2 to be pressed at once. Now that's just effing silly to me.

It's a fact that on the horizon in the next couple of decades are videogames that no longer become videogames, but become completely immersive virtual reality experiences. If I'm going to be controlling these with a dual-analog controller, I'll consider the whole operation an abortion. And here's the thing - we're taking constant, great, incredible strides toward this type of thing in terms of graphics and processing power. Games are being rendered to look more and more real by the YEAR. It's getting absolutely incredible. And yet, the other major component of interacting with games - the common controller - hasn't changed very much in nearly 2 decades. Something is wrong here.

For that matter, i consider many games right now as being somewhat stunted. On the 360 and PS3, we have some INCREDIBLE looking games. They're cinematic, they're emotional, at times they look REAL. I use Bioshock as an example here - But we're still controlling them with a glorified Super Nintendo controller. These things have a dozen buttons and a d-pad and a couple of sticks, and it's gotten to where growth has stopped, and the "don't fix it if it ain't broke" mantra thrives. Don't fix it if it ain't broke - if there's ever been a mindset that's stunted progress more than this, I don't know what it is.

And I'm not saying that dual-sticks don't have their use. Some games work perfectly. This huge wave of retro top-down shooters for example. Some platformers. At this point I'm merely PUTTING UP with the thing for shooters. Thank god I never bought the poor Orange Box for the PS3.

I know this is going to be an unpopular mindset. For whatever reason, people LOVE their dual-shocks and their 360 controllers and don't want them to ever go away. I have to respect that attitude, as it's currently the common one. I'm just praying to the videogame gods that it doesn't remain the prevailing attitude over the upcoming game generations.

I know I have to be patient. I know Natal isn't the answer. But it's something new, a step toward immersion, and if developers find ways to capitilize on this quality of it to make an incredibly immersive, cinematic, affecting game - well I'll feel a very personal kind of excitement, as every tiny victory for new controls is a major step forward in my book.		2009-06-02 18:45:00

Author:
Teebonesy
Posts: 1937

So this is the great Dimitri... I followed that project for a while, gobbling up every bit of info about it. From a completely non-fanboyish perspective, I'm disappointed it's an xbox 360 project - my xbox has cost 3 times as much in repairs as it has by just buying it. Plus, the voice recognition will probably struggle over loud speakers - no joke.

I love the idea, though. This is exactly what the Wii should have been. It seems so much more responsive, very sci-fi. If they make it so the Joe public can develop for it (? la XNA), it'll open up a new world of possibilities - just look what home development did for the iPhone. I wouldn't expect to wait too long before Minority Report computers are recreated...

Anywho, the thing is, I've seen similar things before. There's this technology called Sixth Sense being developed that takes this concept further - a mix of camera, projector, and colour recognition means it's a fully functional, portable minority report computer, the main idea for features of which is along the lines of "point camera at barcode, receive reviews, pricing, etc." It looks great. And then there's also a technology that recognises colours that's in a beta phase that I saw, where you can just pick up a pencil case and use it as your controller...anywho, we'll see how this turns out.		2009-06-02 18:52:00

Author:
dawesbr
Posts: 3280

I saw a TED talk on that technology. It definitely looked pretty cool. Projecting buttons onto any surface in order to interact with almost any object - and a camera to scan the very same surface that's being projected, so the device knows what it's looking at and how to interact with it. Cool stuff.

Maybe the future controller is something that will somehow be form-fitted to each individual player. Natal obviously does this, as no matter what your shape or how big or small your meat-hooks, the camera will figure you out.		2009-06-02 18:59:00

Author:
Teebonesy
Posts: 1937

Can someone give me some more info on the whole Natal thing?

like do you get a controller WITH the camera or are games entirely controlled by your own motions?

And what did you have in mind to replace dual analog Teebon, because it kind of sounds like you just want all controllers replaced with variations of the Wiimote 		2009-06-02 19:06:00

Author:
Dexiro
Posts: 2100

Just wanted to drop a quick note here, as Sony has unveiled its own motion controller in a very early development prototype stage.

In short, it looks to be curiously close to Wii's remote. It has accelerometers, and a glowing "sphere" at the tip which is tracked by the PS-Eye. Already, my first thoughts: In order to use this controller, you have to buy the new controllers themselves as WELL as a PS Eye?? This isn't likely to fly in a big way. Clearly this is going to be an experiment. That's fine. I just hope we get something more than "toys" for games.

All of that being said - the tech demos on display were INCREDIBLY impressive. This is exactly what I expected and imagined when Nintendo very first unveiled the wii remote.

It's absolutely, crystal-clear 1:1 movement. Onscreen, you can see yourself, in your room, from the PS-eye, but instead of holding the controller, you're holding a sword, a tennis racket, a golf club, a light saber, a gun - and it tracks your every movement, perfectly - even incredibly fast movements. There doesn't seem to be ANY visual delay whatsoever.

There was a phenomenal demo of an arena battle, in which the player, sword in hand, precisely toyed with a dummy-enemy. He "tickled" the dummy with the end of his sword, and struck, pierced, and batted him around. This really, honestly appears to be the real deal that the Wii never pulled off.		2009-06-02 20:47:00

Author:
Teebonesy
Posts: 1937

Can someone give me some more info on the whole Natal thing?

like do you get a controller WITH the camera or are games entirely controlled by your own motions?

And what did you have in mind to replace dual analog Teebon, because it kind of sounds like you just want all controllers replaced with variations of the Wiimote

1 - No, no controllers come with it. Literally you're the controller, and any object you choose to hold. It's a recipe for silliness in some instances, as in the case of a racing game where you can hold your hands out, as if "playing pretend" on your couch in order to steer the car. According to first hand impressions from IGN on Burnout being played in this fashion, it actually works - but for me, it sounds and looks weird. I'd at least have to hold something - which, I believe, also works. Grab a frying pan if it makes you feel better.

2 - All controllers being replaced with wiimote variations? If those "variations" work, then yes please! In my mind, the wii remote is a broken piece of hardware, not delivering on the promise of motion control or real precision

OH GOD TRICO IS COMING

[OH GOD

EDIT: Sorry about that. They showed a trailer for "The Last Guardian" (Project Trico) at the Keynote and I flipped out.

What I was saying was, if they can bring out a mass-available hardcore WORKING, improved-upon version of the wii remote, I'd absolutely be the first to sign up.		2009-06-02 20:51:00

Author:
Teebonesy
Posts: 1937

It's a fact that on the horizon in the next couple of decades are videogames that no longer become videogames, but become completely immersive virtual reality experiences.

This is not a fact, it's a guess. Not meaning to be argumentative here but I'll repeat that people were saying this 2 decades ago. Also, VR sickness - all the fancy-pants graphics and accelerometer and vision processing tech in the world won't cure this. VR is not considered to be a viable route forward for anything (as told to me by a world expert in virtual / augmented reality, simulation and serious gaming).

I agree whole heartedly with the comments about gamepads and FPS. I won't play FPS on a console until keyborad and mouse are supported by the developers. But most games are more suited to an existing HCI device than body movement. Imagine any of the following with "no controller", like you propose:
martial arts game, a platformer, a driving game, a flying game, an FPS, any game where your avatar moves around at speed or where the action changes rapidly due to context, realtime strategy games, most RPG games...

Anything missing from the list?		2009-06-02 21:18:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Didn't the Wii motion plus do exactly the same thing earlier today? Especially the archery?

Don't get me wrong, The PS motion thing (That looks like a sex toy) is pretty cool, and definitely looks more practical than Natal. I guess the one thing it has "up" on the wii mote is it has true sense of where it is in physical space, the wii kind of guesses. The 1:1 accuracy is pretty impressive... It's just... ****, it looks expensive. You NEED the PS eye and two of those probe things.

Though the wii motion plus looks good enough for me, it's a little more accurate than the wii mote is already (even though it's marketed exactly the same)... if the wii sports resort / motion plus is cheap enough I'll get it.

PS glowing probe thingie... I don't know.		2009-06-02 21:25:00

Author:
Foofles
Posts: 2278

Foofles, before they started they mentioned it was an early, early prototype.

Indeed the wii motionplus does sort of the same but the camera features is what makes the PS3 motion sensor special as well.		2009-06-02 21:28:00

Author:
Zwollie
Posts: 2173

martial arts game, <--demoed in the video
a platformer,<-- no comment This one WOULD be a problem
a driving game,<--demoed. Looked like it worked...although the pit stop was lame
a flying game,<--arms out by your sides, pretend to be a plane, shout pew pew to fire.
an FPS, <--Walk on the spot to move, arm as gun, simple, no?
any game where your avatar moves around at speed or where the action changes rapidly due to context, <-- specifics please
realtime strategy games, <-- draw around the troops with your arm etc.
most RPG games... <-- move by walking on the spot, swing arm for sword/spell etc.

Anywho, what I'd REALLY like to see is implementation of Johnny Lee's technology to provide 3D environments that look TRULY 3D.		2009-06-02 21:30:00

Author:
dawesbr
Posts: 3280

Foofles, before they started they mentioned it was an early, early prototype.

Indeed the wii motionplus does sort of the same but the camera features is what makes the PS3 motion sensor special as well.

I could swear I've seen this thing before though... somewhere... if only a draft.

You're right though, I've seen the miracle they've gone through after announcing the PS3 boomerang controller. lol		2009-06-02 21:31:00

Author:
Foofles
Posts: 2278

Yeah the sex toy new motion controller was leaked last year some time. I saw it on qj.2009-06-02 21:32:00

Author:
dawesbr
Posts: 3280

So Sony and Microsoft copied the market leader for the main feature of their conferences. Where has originality gone to?2009-06-02 21:44:00

Author:
Killian
Posts: 2575

martial arts game, <--demoed in the video
a platformer,<-- no comment This one WOULD be a problem
a driving game,<--demoed. Looked like it worked...although the pit stop was lame
a flying game,<--arms out by your sides, pretend to be a plane, shout pew pew to fire.
an FPS, <--Walk on the spot to move, arm as gun, simple, no?
any game where your avatar moves around at speed or where the action changes rapidly due to context, <-- specifics please
realtime strategy games, <-- draw around the troops with your arm etc.
most RPG games... <-- move by walking on the spot, swing arm for sword/spell etc.

Where is this video BTW? I looked for a link in the thread but may well have missed it.

So I can fight in tekken as well as i can fight in real life? Ace, I've always wanted to do be able to do stuff I can do in real life, but not in real life, but acting like im in real life. Interaction with virtual vehicles is significantly enhanced with some form of controller - I can probably find quantitative sources for that if you want. FPS - major fail - where is my "glance" action that I get with a mouse? How do I control my speed and direction walking on the spot? do I turn around so I can't see the telly? If so, brilliant. RTS, I've selected my troops, what do I do to control them - far easier and more intuitive to select with mouse and command with buttons.. RPG, no benefit, IMO.

Oh, just thought of more points against gesturative interfaces and immersion:
The uncanny valley phenomenon haptics mismatch the visual presentation so the illusion is ruined - linked with VR sickness but not as serious If the haptics match the fidelity of the motion capture you are likely to end up in the hospital		2009-06-02 21:55:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

Here ya go, rtm223

YouTube - Xbox 360 Project Natal
YouTube - Project Natal - Demonstration - E3 2009 Microsoft conference Xbox 360		2009-06-02 21:58:00

Author:
Zwollie
Posts: 2173

Guys, there's one for the wii made by ubisoft as well, it was at ubisoft's press conference, though at the moment it's just for a fitness game2009-06-02 22:09:00

Author:
Theap Pleman
Posts: 670

Thanks zwollie.

After watching the demos, I'm possibly less impressed than before. I can't skate, or do martial arts, therefore I can't play games based on those anymore. What happend to escapism? And the lack of haptics will destroy it - full stop. These are gimmicks, no more. The future of HCI is elsewhere.		2009-06-02 22:16:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

wow i've never actually seen proper footage of Natal xD

no offence but were any of you actually excited about that? xD
there's so many problems with that system that it's hard to take it seriously

the technology is brilliant, but it's impossible to make a game using that thing		2009-06-02 22:33:00

Author:
Dexiro
Posts: 2100

Lol, this is exactly what I was expecting to see dex, and exactly why I was expecting to be unimpressed.


Don't fix it if it ain't broke - if there's ever been a mindset that's stunted progress more than this, I don't know what it is.

It's a good mindset. Don't change the things that work well for the sake of change. Change them if you stumble upon something better. Focus on changing the things that don't work. Perfect logic. And things that are worse? I can tell you two things:
When marketability, hype and "wow-factor" are regarded higher than practicality and genuine benefit in order to make a profit Failing to learn from mistakes of the past, or worse: deliberately ignoring them in persuit of 1

This is an example of both.		2009-06-02 22:48:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

If anyone still has high expectations of Natal here's a few reasons that i picked up on:

- For this to work you need a lot of space!
No one i know has anywhere near enough space to get the most out of the thing, remember a lot of us poor folk don't have a lot of empty space or a nice big stage to play on.
If i were to have that thing in my room i wouldn't even be able to fit myself onto the camera properly, let alone jump from side to side or move backwards and forwards.

- No one i know would happily yell at their tv screen in that way without feeling embarrassed

- That woman on the preview looking like a complete ****end flailing her arms and legs around

- No one i know would happily pretend they're holding a gun or steering wheel either, or it'd be incredibly straining after just a few minutes

- Simple mechanics like walking and turning around just wouldn't work, or they'd be awkward at least

and lastly i'd question how easy it would be for developers to create games played entirely with a camera, to me it sounds like more effort than it's worth		2009-06-02 23:11:00

Author:
Dexiro
Posts: 2100

What Natal clearly needs is what was demoed by Sony - a motion controller, with buttons, designed to be tracked by the natal cameras. I agree that you need some kind of feedback system, some sort of tactile interface. Buttons. something to hold. I love the idea of 2 wireless wands - similar to wiimote/nunchuck.

In short, I think one thing that needs to pretty much stay the same in terms of game control is HANDS - There's nothing better we have to precisely control our videogames than hands and fingers and thumbs.

Sony's prototype demo was so clearly better than anything the Wii has been able to accomplish... It's frustrating, because just imagine. All Nintendo needed was to use this slightly different tech instead of their dual-IR bar and IR sensor, and we'd have been dealing with real-deal 1:1 super-precise lag-free motion from the get-go.

And on top of that, Sony's controller will never go beyond "experiment", as it's a tiny subset of the playstation gaming populace that will actually own a PS Eye AND get these new controllers just to TRY something new.

The Wii motion plus is the one that's going to be available soonest. It looks like a clear improvement over the Wii remote, but I can't help but be cynical and a bit angry at Nintendo for not delivering this out of the box. Seriously, all it is is MORE accelerometers. The first controller should have included this.

And having seen Sony's demo, I just feel like we're right on the edge of having something AMAZING, but instead we're sort of left with "eehh, almost there at least."

I'll admit when the Sony conference first made note of a new motion controller and they walked out with these bulbous-looking pleasure devices, I laughed and smacked my forehead, and then they started talking about accelerometers and I just shook my head in dismay.

Then I saw the thing in action. And, granted, the demos, from a playable-game perspective, were INCREDIBLY rough around the edges. But the working tech on display was eye-popping. Me wanty.		2009-06-02 23:11:00

Author:
Teebonesy
Posts: 1937

If anyone still has high expectations of Natal here's a few reasons that i picked up on:

remember a lot of us poor folk don't have a lot of empty space or a nice big stage to play on.

Ha!
Microsoft caring about poor people?
Do you really think industries really care about the poor?
They only care about the money...		2009-06-03 01:07:00

Author:
Silverleon
Posts: 6707

the sony motion sensing looks amazing
i am imprest		2009-06-03 02:12:00

Author:
Sonic5411
Posts: 712

Ha!
Microsoft caring about poor people?
Do you really think industries really care about the poor?
They only care about the money...

the thing is "poor people" are fairly common. you can't exactly make a profit by appealing only to the highest classes or whatever.		2009-06-03 02:17:00

Author:
RockSauron
Posts: 10882

What Natal clearly needs is what was demoed by Sony - a motion controller, with buttons, designed to be tracked by the natal cameras. I agree that you need some kind of feedback system, some sort of tactile interface. Buttons. something to hold. I love the idea of 2 wireless wands - similar to wiimote/nunchuck.

In any 1:1 mapping of human to avatar, you need more than this, without haptics the 1:1 becomes meaningless. 1:1 seems perfectly intuitive, until you try to interact with anything. If I reach out for something my with my physical hand and my virtual hand meets something in the way, what happens? The two choices are:
1) My virtual hand just slides through - which would be so unbelieveably lame
2) My virtual hand stops at the object. This leads to a missmatch between real and virtual.

I know you can stop your own hand at the right point when you see it, but this is very unnatural and doesn't work at all for fast movements. It is also inconsistant and your mind doesn't respond well to inconsistant interfaces. You actually have to concentrate a lot on the interface and this stops you concentrating on playing the game, in other words the interface will get in the way of what you are attempting to do, rather than helping you do it.

Our minds cope far better with low fidelity, abstracted, consistant interfaces than with higher fidelity, inconsistant interfaces.		2009-06-03 11:16:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

In any 1:1 mapping of human to avatar, you need more than this, without haptics the 1:1 becomes meaningless.

I agree that nothing would be better than true tactile feedback. Your controller or hand stops at the point it should. I can't even IMAGINE how this would be possible, but at the same time, don't underestimate our ability to adapt - The next best thing is an old feature, a simple feature - to implement rumble into the hand-held controllers. At the point of movement where you'd be hitting some kind of resistance, have the controller rumble a certain way. Perhaps there'd be heavier rumble on one side of the controller if the game wanted you to move it the other way? We are very train-able creatures when it comes to this stuff.

It's occurred to me what's really going on here with these motion control announcements.

The big console companies are gearing up for their followups. Obviously it's too early to glimpse the PS4 and the XBox 3 and the new Nintendo here. But in a way, we might be glimpsing them already. The big companies are going to be experimenting with these controllers to see if they're the way forward. Whatever they learn from these motion control experiments with Natal and the wands, they're going to be carrying forward to the consoles' heirs. Whether that means motion controllers or just the opposite remains to be seen, but I don't think it's that much of a stretch or secret to assume that that's what this experiment is really about.		2009-06-03 19:08:00

Author:
Teebonesy
Posts: 1937

I'm not underestimating our ability to adapt. Humans are great at adapting to something new, remarkably so, but we don't adapt well to things that aren't consistant and we don't adapt well to things that are very close to what we already know, but with subtle differences. The problem with these 1:1 mappings is that they are too close to real world, but won't ever be quite the same. In the average gamer you are dealing with well over a decade of reinforced mental models from real life, and asking them to change that ever-so-slightly. It doesn't work. In these circumstances, the high fidelity of the system is largely detrimental to the user. The interface gets in the way. This is based upon research (not original research, I mean I read around 75ish peer-reviewed academic research papers on the subject) I did on the role of fidelity in simulation and learning, which is very very closely linked to video game intefaces.

I agree with your idea about next gen, no developers would support these interfaces on a current console, becuse they aren't shipped with the consosle you can't guarantee the gamers have them. If a developer wants to make a game with motion control for a current console they will go for the Wii, where you can be assured the game is open to everyone and likely maximise profits.

As for the haptic stuff - Things have been done like that but they are cumbersome at best and physically dangerous at worst. And whole body feedback? Can you say exoskeleton? Haha. Simple haptic interfaces are fun though. I've played with ones where you can pick up virtual objects on a screen with your hand or push them around and actually feel the weight and resistance of them - very cool		2009-06-04 09:52:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

This made chuckle
http://www.gametrailers.com/user-movie/natal-project-remix/319805		2009-06-05 06:05:00

Author:
Zwollie
Posts: 2173

Makes the fail of that presentation just that more funny. 2009-06-05 06:11:00

Author:
iiiijujube
Posts: 594

What Natal clearly needs is what was demoed by Sony - a motion controller, with buttons, designed to be tracked by the natal cameras. I agree that you need some kind of feedback system, some sort of tactile interface. Buttons. something to hold. I love the idea of 2 wireless wands - similar to wiimote/nunchuck.

In short, I think one thing that needs to pretty much stay the same in terms of game control is HANDS - There's nothing better we have to precisely control our videogames than hands and fingers and thumbs.

Sony's prototype demo was so clearly better than anything the Wii has been able to accomplish... It's frustrating, because just imagine. All Nintendo needed was to use this slightly different tech instead of their dual-IR bar and IR sensor, and we'd have been dealing with real-deal 1:1 super-precise lag-free motion from the get-go.

And on top of that, Sony's controller will never go beyond "experiment", as it's a tiny subset of the playstation gaming populace that will actually own a PS Eye AND get these new controllers just to TRY something new.

The Wii motion plus is the one that's going to be available soonest. It looks like a clear improvement over the Wii remote, but I can't help but be cynical and a bit angry at Nintendo for not delivering this out of the box. Seriously, all it is is MORE accelerometers. The first controller should have included this.

And having seen Sony's demo, I just feel like we're right on the edge of having something AMAZING, but instead we're sort of left with "eehh, almost there at least."

I'll admit when the Sony conference first made note of a new motion controller and they walked out with these bulbous-looking pleasure devices, I laughed and smacked my forehead, and then they started talking about accelerometers and I just shook my head in dismay.

Then I saw the thing in action. And, granted, the demos, from a playable-game perspective, were INCREDIBLY rough around the edges. But the working tech on display was eye-popping. Me wanty.

I was going to talk about this. It's no Natal I'm excited about, it's this! I SO want to have some bow and arrow action going on with those. Sony seem to have gotten it right. NOT up and jumping around, NOT using almost pure accelerometer action (Or having either pointing or waving an never together), but using two remotes that are tracked using something on your TV and accelerometers that are being used TOGETHER which have buttons and you can hold.

This is what I want the next step to be, not full body movement. That is too tiring to me if i want to play a fighting game for a couple hours. Then again, no gamer will ever be obese again . With Sony's product you can sit down and still use an analog or button controlled movement while still being able to incorporate 1:1 movement for things like wands, swords, shields, guns or just hands.		2009-06-05 12:58:00

Author:
Unknown User

Keep in mind, that Natal is still quite a ways off, and will require a new purchase of any and all Xbox 360 owners who want to use it.

This means that Microsoft very well may delay the device in order to develop controllers based on Sony's prototypes to use WITH Natal. Or, they might release these controllers at a later time.

The PS-Eye doesn't have an infrared sensor. Natal has both a pixel camera and an infrared one. It seems the best of both worlds would result in the most accurate control - infrared plus traditional pixel camera, in addition to motion controllers similar to Sony's prototype.

Either way, this seems to be the general direction of "next-gen" motion control. Nintendo's 2-infrared light emitters are clearly outdated. I would expect the next generation of consoles to probably implement, out of the box, SOME type of control similar to these prototypes we're seeing now. I'm not saying this means they WON'T have dual-analog controllers. Most gamers are going to have to be weaned off these. But, assuming these motion control experiments are a success (and clearly the market has declared Nintendo's a phenomenal success), I would expect next gen consoles to come packaged with all the motion control our greedy little hearts desire.

These upcoming releases of new motion controllers will be a way to iron out the kinks and get an idea of how the real games play and what needs to be done to polish up the technology.		2009-06-05 22:49:00

Author:
Teebonesy
Posts: 1937

...dual-analog controllers. Most gamers are going to have to be weaned off these. Grrr. Don't WANNA



What I read earlier today is interesting, to me at least:


The creator of the Sony EyeToy, Dr Richard Marks, who heads up the team developing the Motion Controller for PS3, said the new system was sparking the imagination of game developers.

"We expect this to be a great casual gamers' experience, but we also want to enable some more gamers' games. We think this would be a great experience too," he said.
source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8080436.stm)

"Some more gamers games". So some at sony are accepting that the motion controller is really a casual gamers market foremost, and creep it into the hardcore. This makes me happier.

What I would like to see is a true hybrid of technologies. A two handed motion controller than clips together (what ever mechanism, I'm imagining twist) to look and play just like the legacy (or what will become legacy) or "classic" plastation controller, but then splits apart to be an advanced wii-like motion control interface.		2009-06-05 23:02:00

Author:
rtm223
Posts: 6497

As for the haptic stuff - Things have been done like that but they are cumbersome at best and physically dangerous at worst. And whole body feedback? Can you say exoskeleton? Haha. Simple haptic interfaces are fun though. I've played with ones where you can pick up virtual objects on a screen with your hand or push them around and actually feel the weight and resistance of them - very cool

I remember seeing of these somewhere. It was a glove with a grid of small rods that could be lifted or lowered, so that when you touched something virtually it gave a feeling that you were actually touching it. I think it also had heaters in it or something so that you could get the feeling of cold metal or of a really warm material.		2009-06-05 23:23:00

Author:
dawesbr
Posts: 3280

WOW, I just saw the PS motion controller on E3 and I'm seriously impressed. Everytime he moved the controller, whatever was on the screen moved. I was especially impressed with the bits at the end with the shield and sword and the bow and arrow. Really looking forward to the release.2009-06-06 06:40:00

Author:
brnxblze
Posts: 1318

Just thought I'd copy-and-paste a great post from Jerry Holkins of Penny Arcade on the topic of these new controllers. He elucidates in his Tycho(nian) fashion a context for Sony's motion control demo:


Sony's presentation makes more sense to enthusiast gamers because it has controllers. We like those. The most compelling demos they showed require fully two controllers and the Playstation Eye, but I'd be very surprised if that was considered a typical configuration. Being a shaman, I have a natural sympathy for prophets - such as the men who gave a demo of Sony's new motion controls. Creatures out of their own time, emerging from some blast-scarred pod to gesture at a future which is (for them) patently obvious. They are from there. They want us to come along.		2009-06-08 23:28:00

Author:
Teebonesy
Posts: 1937


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